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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Dr. Ray Peat protocol (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Dr. Ray Peat protocol
emla999/Lyme
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VV you said,


quote:
It's in the chain of assumption set up here:

Lyme=Hypothyroidism=Hypoglycemic


You've set up this hypothesis that we suffer from Lyme because we are suffering from a "low metabolism" (hypothyroidism), and we are hypothyroid because we are hypoglycemic, therefore we need to eat more sugar.

I do not believe that hypoglycemia can cause hypothroidism or cause chronic Lyme Disease. Ray Peat and Matt would not say that either. Nor did I mean to insinuate any such a thing. If my posts come across as insinuating that hypoglycemia cause chronic Lyme Disease then please know that I didn't mean to convey that message and I don't believe that hypoglycemia causes chronic Lyme Disease.


But in regards to hypoglycemia, I do known that the body can produce more adrenaline when your blood sugar drops (hypoglycemia). And that hypothyroidism will usually cause a person to have low heart rate. But adrenaline can increase the heart rate and heart disease. So, if your body is producing excessive adrenaline then eating sugar or fruit or something similar may help to lower adrenaline production.


I have been on Lymenet going on 6 years and anybody that has read all of my posts know that I don't exagerate about things and I have tried numerous therapies over the years with little improvement.


And now after years and years of trying numerous other therapies to heal myself of chronic Lyme Disease to no avail. But I have finally found something that has helped me tremendously and that something was to incorprate some Dr. Peat's and Matt's advice into my life. So, started this thread because I felt the need to share this information with everyone here on Lymenet in hopes that it would help someone else.


And all that I am trying to do is bring awareness to something that has helped me and few other chronic Lyme Disease patients to feel alot better.


Why has Ray Peat and Matt's advice helped me and the few other Lyme patients that have tried it?


Well, I can't be 100% why following their advice has helped me or the few other so much but I do know via testing that I was hypothyroid and therefore I had a low metabolism and that I was producing too much adrenaline. And when I treated the low metabolism and hypothroidism and corrected the excessive adrenaline production via following some of Ray Peat and Matt's advice my health improved dramatically.


And after over a decade of trying nearly every type of treatment under the sun I am profoundly grateful and happy to have found a protocol that has finally helped me to regain much of my health back.


And if following some of Ray and Matt's advice helped me then maybe, just maybe it can also help someone else here on Lymenet. But unless more people here on Lymenet are willing to try their protocol(s) then I guess we will never know if their protocol would effective for alot more chronic Lyme Disease patients.


.

[ 01-18-2013, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: emla999/Lyme ]

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by beaches:
Oh I don't doubt for a minute that there are many, many sx shared by dx like LD/cos and CFS, and we can even throw in other dx like fibro and MS.

But I've been hypo for many, many years! I didn't get LD/cos til decades after that dx. In my case, the hypothyroid dx is genetic.

And does it count with him and Matt that I've had my thyroid function monitored for decades? As well as the thyroid function of my sick kids? And that I and they have been treated for being hypothyroid???

It's really not about whether Peat is for or against abx tx. It's about what he believes fundamentally as a physician.

For me, it's whether or not he "believes" that Chronic Lyme Disease can affect every system and organ in one's body. If he does not, that tells me a great deal.

And that would be the deciding factor/sole reason for me to seek or not seek his opinion/treatment.

I'm sure that both of them would suspect that you might be getting inadequately treated for the hypothyroid condition.

Are you getting treated with synthroid or dessicated thyroid? Does your doctor prescribe your thyroid medication based on your TSH or do they also take into account Free T3, RT3, symptoms, etc? Because RT3 can block the action of the active thyroid hormone T3. Even excess T4 can cause problems if your liver/thyroid cannot convert it into T3 as needed.

For instance, my TSH is normal at 1.5, but I still do much better on thyroid hormone.

He fundamentally believes that Lyme (and other serious infections) are secondary to a hypothyroid condition. He mentions in one of his interviews that he's given recommendations to Lyme patients, and they improve and eventually they forget about their Lyme diagnosis because their metabolism improves and the symptoms go away.

I think he considers the body as a whole. I definitely believe he would consider that a chronic infection can affect every system in the body. But I cannot vouch for his thought process of course, he hasn't discussed much about lyme specifically.

If you wish, I will PM you his contact information, and you can ask him yourself.

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VV
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quote:
Originally posted by ninjaphire:
quote:
Originally posted by VV:

It sounds like you are making the assumption that all patients (or everybody?) is hypothyroid.
You are also misunderstanding the fact that cortisol and adrenaline are produced in response to stressful situations.

Cortisol in particular is vital in dealing with stress (physiological and psychological) and without adequate levels you will not be able to fight infection (or function). Make no mistake, you NEED cortisol to live hence why people provide adrenal SUPPORT.

This is the importance of a differential diagnosis. Telling someone their problems are caused by hypothyroidism when it's their adrenals is problematic under certain circumstances and can be deadly even.

Yes, cortisol and adrenaline are produced in response to stressful situations. And they are vital and do help a lot. However, in the long term, your body is significantly weakened by the stress.

So you want to remove the original stress, thus reducing your body's need for the adaptive stress hormones (cortisol etc).

One such stress is hypothyroidism (you might also call it thyroid resistance (high RT3), or low metabolism etc). I suspect we would all fit the classical symptoms of hypothyroid. Low temperature, low metabolism in general, etc

You are confusing cortisol as the source of stress.

It is required and made in higher volumes IN RESPONSE TO STRESS, sometimes to the order of 2-3 times the normal amount. If you don't get enough, you can go into shock and die. It is like many substances in the body where you want be within a certain healthy window.

It is not simply a case of always wanting less or always wanting more. The ideal is to support your adrenals so that they are healthy enough to produce adequate amounts when they are called on by the pituitary to do the job.

This need should NEVER be mistaken for hypothyroidism because giving T4 or T3 to one of these patients would make their condition worse.

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by glm1111:
ninjaphire,

If the adrenal glands are low functioning and not producing much cortisol at all, then trying to help REPLENISH the cortisol and bring them back to a more normal level is NOT patching the hypothyroid symptoms. We are not really talking about OVERPRODUCTION of cortisol here.

If the infections from Lyme are disseminated, the adrenals AND thyroid are most likely infected as well suppressing the whole enodcrine system. You have to get rid of the CAUSE, which is infection.

A low functioning thyroid is most likely a result of inflammation brought about by these infections.

Yes, some adrenal support might be useful to bring your cortisol level back up.

However, there are other reasons, unrelated to lyme, why your metabolism would be low. For example too many PUFAs, low carb diet, general dieting to lose weight(!), goitrogens from food like soy, cabbage (and other brassica vegetables), etc. Even overhydration can do it.

There's a catch-22 there. Your body cannot get rid of the bugs if the metabolism is low. And the bugs cause enough damage to keep the metabolism low. So, how do you break out of it? You add in some thyroid hormone and increase your intake of carb (IMO sugar is best, but something like potato might work too) and protein.

I'm just giving you a broad overview though.

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CD57
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I do know that I spent the first few years of my illness in extreme STRESS....ie; my sympathetic nervous system was in overdrive and I was producing large amounts of cortisol. I still am unclear if this was the illness doing it or my reaction to being diagnosed with the illness and reading all the horror stories and symptoms checklists.

They are actually doing a study now on PTSD, which creates large amounts of cortisol and adrenaline, and the long term damage it does to the hypothalamus and brain. Its a vicious cycle that has to be turned off.

So yes I agree with (QUOTE) Yes, cortisol and adrenaline are produced in response to stressful situations. And they are vital and do help a lot. However, in the long term, your body is significantly weakened by the stress. (/QUOTE).

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by VV:
You are confusing cortisol as the source of stress.

It is required and made in higher volumes IN RESPONSE TO STRESS, sometimes to the order of 2-3 times the normal amount. If you don't get enough, you can go into shock and die. It is like many substances in the body where you want be within a certain healthy window.

It is not simply a case of always wanting less or always wanting more. The ideal is to support your adrenals so that they are healthy enough to produce adequate amounts when they are called on by the pituitary to do the job.

This need should NEVER be mistaken for hypothyroidism because giving T4 or T3 to one of these patients would make their condition worse.

Cortisol is useful and necessary, but it can be damaging all by itself, for example in Cushing's disease.

The ideal is to reduce the need for extra cortisol, so your body can heal itself. I'm saying REDUCE THAT STRESS, thus reducing the need for cortisol.

Yes it's possible for thyroid hormones to make things worse, it just means you have to reduce the stress by other means before you jump on the thyroid accelerator.

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by beaches:
And ninja, have you considered that s hypothyroid state could very well be an end result of a tick-borne disease?

I guess it's possible. I was tired and not super-healthy much before I got bitten by a tick though. My diet wasn't that good back then. Vegetarian, full of PUFAs etc.
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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by Catgirl:
I saw a few youtube videos a few months back by someone who follows Ray Peat (Josh Rubin). Thought they were interesting.

Without reading all the posts above, I wonder if Ray Peat knows about lyme and company? I had yeast pre lyme treatment. I also was bit many times. Each time I got bit, I craved more sugar--feeding the yeast, which may have been keeping everything happy but the itching was a pain.

I think he believes that Lyme is secondary to a hypothyroid condition. He mentions in one of his interviews that he's given recommendations to Lyme patients, and they improve and eventually they forget about their Lyme diagnosis because their metabolism improves and the symptoms go away.
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beaches
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Quoting ninja:

"I'm sure that both of them would suspect that you might be getting inadequately treated for the hypothyroid condition.

Are you getting treated with synthroid or dessicated thyroid? Does your doctor prescribe your thyroid medication based on your TSH or do they also take into account Free T3, RT3, symptoms, etc? Because RT3 can block the action of the active thyroid hormone T3. Even excess T4 can cause problems if your liver/thyroid cannot convert it into T3 as needed.

For instance, my TSH is normal at 1.5, but I still do much better on thyroid hormone.

He fundamentally believes that Lyme (and other serious infections) are secondary to a hypothyroid condition. He mentions in one of his interviews that he's given recommendations to Lyme patients, and they improve and eventually they forget about their Lyme diagnosis because their metabolism improves and the symptoms go away.

I think he considers the body as a whole. I definitely believe he would consider that a chronic infection can affect every system in the body. But I cannot vouch for his thought process of course, he hasn't discussed much about lyme specifically.

If you wish, I will PM you his contact information, and you can ask him yourself."

..................................................

Thanks for the detailed response. Yes, we are being treated and monitored.

I don't recall what RT3 is but you can bet I'll now look into it!

I think one of the basic disagreements here is that Peat (quoting you) "fundamentally believes that Lyme (and other serious infections) are secondary to a hypothyroid condition."

I completely and vehemently disagree with that statement.

I think the PRIMARY reason for our collective symptoms is due to tick-borne diseases.

I do not for one minute believe that being hypothyroid is causal.

Thx for the offer, but for personal reasons I will not contact/correspond with any person who would choose to deny my personal reality by not "believing" in Chronic Lyme Disease.

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beaches
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Quoting ninja:

"He mentions in one of his interviews that he's given recommendations to Lyme patients, and they improve and eventually they forget about their Lyme diagnosis because their metabolism improves and the symptoms go away."

Oh OK. Can I get some of whatever Peat and Matt are drinking so my family can eventually forget our collective Lyme dx?

Really? Really?? REALLY???

Should I be shocked, horrified, angry or a combination of all three?

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by beaches:
Quoting ninja:

"He mentions in one of his interviews that he's given recommendations to Lyme patients, and they improve and eventually they forget about their Lyme diagnosis because their metabolism improves and the symptoms go away."

Oh OK. Can I get some of whatever Peat and Matt are drinking so my family can eventually forget our collective Lyme dx?

Really? Really?? REALLY???

Should I be shocked, horrified, angry or a combination of all three?

You shouldn't feel especially offended, he thinks that it's not the bacteria that's at the root cause of disease, it's the terrain (your body). So if you had a high metabolism, then you would have a pretty strong immunity against almost any bacteria, not just lyme. So he's not singling out or especially dismissive of lyme.

This may throw you for a bit of a loop, but he's questioning the whole germ theory of disease more or less.

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VV
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quote:
Originally posted by ninjaphire:
quote:
Originally posted by beaches:
Quoting ninja:

"He mentions in one of his interviews that he's given recommendations to Lyme patients, and they improve and eventually they forget about their Lyme diagnosis because their metabolism improves and the symptoms go away."

Oh OK. Can I get some of whatever Peat and Matt are drinking so my family can eventually forget our collective Lyme dx?

Really? Really?? REALLY???

Should I be shocked, horrified, angry or a combination of all three?

You shouldn't feel especially offended, he thinks that it's not the bacteria that's at the root cause of disease, it's the terrain (your body). So if you had a high metabolism, then you would have a pretty strong immunity against almost any bacteria, not just lyme. So he's not singling out or especially dismissive of lyme.

This may throw you for a bit of a loop, but he's questioning the whole germ theory of disease more or less.

Let's question the theory of gravity while we're at it! [Roll Eyes]
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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by VV:
Let's question the theory of gravity while we're at it! [Roll Eyes]

It comes back to this: Some people get sick, some people don't. Why?
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beaches
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ninja, everything about this throws me for a loop.

I do think there is something to be said about "the terrain" and I know firsthand of people who were bit by ticks back in the day who are still well. That itself brings up even more questions.

I do personally believe that it is indeed the bacterium inflicted upon us by ticks that took my family down.

I am not offended by Peat, Matt or any of you. I am happy if anyone here has success with any type of treatment/modality. God knows, we've all been through the ringer a time or two,

I just have some fundamental disagreements with Peat and Matt.

And it's a really good thing that people have remained civil on this thread. It's been very difficult to do so for sure.

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ninjaphire
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beaches, it took me several years to convince myself, so I'm not expecting much more than to plant a seed of doubt.
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beaches
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OK ninja, I understand and accept that.

I personally will leave this alone and will give it time.

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glm1111
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I am with beaches. I really find it hard to believe that raising your metabolism can get rid of a vicious infection of Filarial Worms that have layed eggs and larva by the thousands such as pictured on www.lymephotos.com

This reminds me of Dr Robert Youngs PH Miracle alkanilizing program (changing the inner terrain)that states almost the same thing.

I followed it religously, did the diet, drank the greens with the ph drops and it didn't even begin to touch these infections.

Gael

--------------------
PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW
RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS*

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emla999/Lyme
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Hypothyroidism lowers the immune system and thus makes people more susceptible to contracting infectious diseases and being hypothyroid will make it more difficult for a person to overcome infectious illnesses.


Dr. Broda Barnes treated people with many different types of infectious illnesses by givening those people desiccated thyroid and by correcting their hypothyroidism.


You can read more about Dr. Broda Barnes and his use of desiccated thyroid to treat people of infectious illness by clicking on the link directly down bellow and by reading pages 88 through 102.


http://tinyurl.com/abjpf8r


An interesting comment/observation made by Dr. Broda Barnes.


http://tinyurl.com/bz29zeb


Hypothyroidism and infections


http://www.hypothyroidillness.com/#INF



Hypothyroism's effect upon the immune system.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21745103


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22414628


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19398496


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16061828


.

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by glm1111:
I am with beaches. I really find it hard to believe that raising your metabolism can get rid of a vicious infection of Filarial Worms that have layed eggs and larva by the thousands such as pictured on www.lymephotos.com

He was suggesting occasional use of a pinch of flowers of sulphur (sublimed sulphur) as an anti-parasite in an interview.

I was mainly talking about bacterial infection. Yes, parasites are a problem.

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emla999/Lyme
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Yes, Dr. Peat does recommend taking flowers of sulphur as an anti-parasitic but he is also a big advocate of increasing your daily salt intake.


And many people consider salt to be an anti-parasitic.


.

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VV
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quote:
Originally posted by ninjaphire:
quote:
Originally posted by VV:
Let's question the theory of gravity while we're at it! [Roll Eyes]

It comes back to this: Some people get sick, some people don't. Why?
It would be incredibly convenient if it all boiled down one cause and we could treat all illness with a magic bullet. Unfortunately, this is not the reality. The answer to your question is multifaceted, and still far from being understood.

Genetics and environment are studied as causes for illness. Some people draw the short straw in their genes. Some people are in the wrong place at the wrong time. In many cases, it is a complex mix between the two.

To insinuate that hypothyroidism is the cause of all illness is incredibly short-sighted. It sounds like you are walking around with a hammer and everything has become a nail.

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by VV:
It would be incredibly convenient if it all boiled down one cause and we could treat all illness with a magic bullet. Unfortunately, this is not the reality. The answer to your question is multifaceted, and still far from being understood.

Genetics and environment are studied as causes for illness. Some people draw the short straw in their genes. Some people are in the wrong place at the wrong time. In many cases, it is a complex mix between the two.

To insinuate that hypothyroidism is the cause of all illness is incredibly short-sighted. It sounds like you are walking around with a hammer and everything has become a nail.

It's not a magic bullet or a panacea. It's a very useful tool, one that is currently rather underused.

Ray Peat is also not against using say antibiotics, because bacteria do wear you down over time.

The problem with genetics is that it's been a while, but we haven't found genes for most diseases, let alone a susceptibility to lyme. That's kindof odd, don't you think?

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VV
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Why would that be odd?
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VV
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Also,

from the thread "Diet and the Immune System":

"...one important observation on sugar -- per the book -- 'Consuming 90 grams of honey or fruit sugar (or fruit juice) or regular sucrose will cause a drop by up to 50 percent in white blood cell activity for between one and five hours.'"

Sugar does not sound like a great way to treat chronic illness, now does it?

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by VV:
Why would that be odd?

There have been a number of studies, most of them only found genotypes that only vary the probability of disease by a few percent. So genetics is possibly not as important as thought.
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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by VV:
Also,

from the thread "Diet and the Immune System":

"...one important observation on sugar -- per the book -- 'Consuming 90 grams of honey or fruit sugar (or fruit juice) or regular sucrose will cause a drop by up to 50 percent in white blood cell activity for between one and five hours.'"

Sugar does not sound like a great way to treat chronic illness, now does it?

But 90g of sugar is a massive amount. It's more than 2 cokes, more than 20 tsp. People don't commonly ingest that much sugar without fat and/or protein to slow down absorption as well.
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VV
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quote:
Originally posted by ninjaphire:
quote:
Originally posted by VV:
Also,

from the thread "Diet and the Immune System":

"...one important observation on sugar -- per the book -- 'Consuming 90 grams of honey or fruit sugar (or fruit juice) or regular sucrose will cause a drop by up to 50 percent in white blood cell activity for between one and five hours.'"

Sugar does not sound like a great way to treat chronic illness, now does it?

But 90g of sugar is a massive amount. It's more than 2 cokes, more than 20 tsp. People don't commonly ingest that much sugar without fat and/or protein to slow down absorption as well.
Sounds like your boy eats twice that amount per day!

That depends on your size, metabolic rate, and activity, and the other nutrients, but I sometimes have more than that (400 grams of carbohydrate), including the sugar in milk and orange juice (and I'm about your size, and very sedentary). The fructose component of ordinary sugar (sucrose) helps to increase the metabolic rate. I think a person of average size should have at least 180 grams per day, maybe an average of about 250 grams.
--http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/12/29/ray-peats-brain-building-a-foundation-for-better-understandi.html

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by VV:
[QUOTE]Sounds like your boy eats twice that amount per day!

I bet the study you mentioned used 90g of sugar taken in a drink at one go, without protein or fat.

Again I doubt he takes all that sugar in one dose. Mostly it's going to be split up over the day and eaten with protein and fat.

90g of sugar is a lot for a single dose of sugar.

A link to the study would be nice too.

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VV
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It is from a book referenced in the thread "Diet and the Immune System":

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/122382#000000

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VV
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And 90g of sugar does not sound unusual for Mr. Peat.

Do the math, if he has 400g of carbs a day, 180-250 coming from sucrose, this would mean he eats at least 60g on average per meal. Sounds like it would be very probable for him to get at least one meal a day with about 90g of sucrose.

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ninjaphire
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I'm just going to say that the reaction to sugar depends a lot on context. I used to have bad reactions to sugar in the beginning too, but it's really gone now.

I bet he would eat protein with the sugar though. Taking fat with the sugar (say ice cream) slows down absorption quite a bit. Also, reaction to sugar depends on PUFA to some extent.

So it's really hard to draw many conclusions from a one-time administration of 90g of sugar.

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lax mom
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Low cortisol lowers the immune system, causing it to be susceptible to illness.

Also, high stress levels lowers the immune system , causing it to be susceptible to illness.

A poor diet lowers the immune system causing it to be susceptible to illness. (Both eating too much and eating too little. Also, eating the wrong types of foods all affect immune system function).

Lots of things cause the immune system function to be lowered, causing it to be susceptible to illness.

With Lyme, we have to address everything, not just one thing and expect to get well.

--------------------
♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
(aperture)
http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=115161;p=0

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ninjaphire
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You're absolutely right, and Hypothyroid (low metabolism) also affects the immune system.

According to Dr. Broda Barnes, "One of the cardinal symptoms [of low thyroid]... is a susceptibility to infections,"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nGfULKaKJw

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ninjaphire
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lax mom, yes you have to address everything, but the thyroid/metabolism seems to be often neglected. It will improve everything overall including toxins.
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ninjaphire
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VV,

Here's a study that says long term feeding of sugar/honey to rats boosts neutrophil activity and lymphocyte numbers.

http://researchcommons.waikato.ac.nz/handle/10289/1276

quote:
Results:
Neutrophil phagocytosis was similar between sucrose- and honey-fed rats, and lower in rats fed
the sugar-free diet (79.2%, 74.7% and 51.7 %, respectively). The percentage of leukocytes that
were lymphocytes differed significantly between all three treatments, the levels being highest in
honey-fed rats (53% vs 40.1% and 29.5% for sucrose- and sugar-free fed rats). In conclusion:
Honey may have a beneficial effect on immune activity, possibly attenuating the decline seen in
older age.

Not nearly as clear cut as you may think. Eating sugar may actually boost your immune system.
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NatureGirl44
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Hi Emla!

It's been a few years and I'm wondering how you are doing or anyone with Lyme you know following RayPeat/ Matt stone? I googled Lyme and Ray Peat and came across your posting here. I have Lyme, among other things. I'm trying to learn about RP, quite difficult as there is no official protocol. How are you doing these days???
- Wendy (NatureGirl) [Smile]


quote:
Originally posted by emla999/Lyme:
I would like to know if anyone here on Lymenet is following or has incorporated some of Dr. Ray Peat's or Matt Stone's suggestions into their chronic Lyme Disease treatment protocol?? If so, has following their advice helped you in anyway?


As for me personally, I have seen tremendous improvement in my health as a result of incorporating some of Dr. Peat's and Matt Stone's suggestions into my chronic Lyme/coinfection/toxic mold protocol. Actually, my current protocol is based primarily on their research. And I also know of a few more people with chronic Lyme Disease that have also saw improvements in their health when they started to incorporate some of Dr. Peat's and Matt's suggestions.


So, is anyone here follwing Dr. Peat and Matt Stone's protocols/suggestions??


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