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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Babs or Bart?

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Author Topic: Babs or Bart?
twinnick
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Hi all,

I've been treating lyme and co's for about 14 months now. I am doing much better but still battle pretty bad mental fatigue in the evening after I get home from work. I can go most of the day at work with a pretty clear mind...but as soon as I get home it's like my mind wants to just rest. My eyes feel heavy at times like I need to rest. The fog will return at the point.

If I will myself to, I can go to the gym and run a 5k in about 21 minutes so it's not like my body is exhausted and weak. It's my mind that just feels "bleh" when I get home.

I have been hitting Bart with Rif+mino for about 5 months now...haven't seen much improvement which bums me out as I thought Bart causes cognitive issues. I've take doxy/azithro/cipro/flagyl also prior to attacking Bart. I have never herxed off any of my meds.

I was clinically diagnosed for lyme and never tested for co's...can Babs cause the issues I am having? I always thought Babs symptoms were more body fatigue and exhaustion and not really mental related. I do have pretty bad night sweats maybe every-other week.

Thanks all...and keep fighting! It takes time and be thankful we have plenty of it. [Smile]

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GretaM
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Have you had your cortisol levels checked?

I don't think the afternoon fatigue sounds like bart, to be honest.

I don't have much experience with babs, but others will chime in [Smile]

Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
twinnick
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I have not had them checked.

I'm 30 years old fwiw and as I said physically have the energy to do anything if I will myself to do so....but, just want to lay down when I get ohm and rest. Eh....it's hard to explain. Go figure...

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BoxerMom
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Yes, Babs can cause mental/cognitive symptoms. No question.

It is also the cause of my afternoon fatigue.

Try a round of Babs meds.

--------------------
 - Must...find...BRAIN!!!

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TF
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Since you get night sweats, you really need to treat your babesiosis.

Time the sweats. Babs has a 7-day cycle and a 14-day cycle. I experienced both. Sounds like you are experiencing a 14-day cycle since you think your sweats come every other weekend.

When I started treating babs, these flares became unbelievable. But, adding artemesinin to my treatment cut the flares down to nothing.

Many people do not start feeling good until they have treated "the Big 3"--lyme, babs, and bart.

That's when I started feeling good. I got rid of all 3 over 8 1/2 years ago. Praise God!

I hope this does the trick for you. Let us know.

Since babs gets inside your red blood cells and explodes them, and since the red blood cells carry oxygen to the entire body, it can easily cause your brain to get tired during the day, like once you are done working.

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OtterJ
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Sometimes its hard to know if it is Babs or Bart. I've had the afternoon fatigue and cold feet that last until midnight. I've also had night sweats and have used A-Bart and A-Bab by Byron White. I've replaced cortisol, so this chilly, sleepy thing is beyond a cortisol level.
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twinnick
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Has anyone ever had Babs but did not have any of the physical exhaustion symptoms. I feel as if I always read that the most common symptom is being extremely fatigued after doing very little activity, such has standing up from a chair or walking across a room. I don't suffer from this common symptom so I have a hard time believing I have Babs. -but- I am starting treatment this weekend....
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twinnick
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Also, how do you know when to move on from treat Bart and on to treating babs or vise-versa when so many symptoms overlap?

In other words, how do I know if my brain fog is from babs or Bart? I treated Bart for about 5 months, what I'd that wasn't long enough to treat the brain fog or maybe it was, and babs is my issue? How do you know? And I've read when you take rifampin, that you can't stop then start it again? Is this true...so in a few month if my fog still lingers and I choose to go back and treat Bart again, I can no longer take rifampin?

I guess I'm just hesitant on giving up on treating Bart...but was not seeing much improvement in my symptoms, so I am going to move on. But did I give Bart treatment a long enough chance...?

Did any of that make sense.....?

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TF
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There is no way to tell if your brain fog is from babs or bart or lyme. So, treat babs and see what happens.

Your doc will likely put your on Mepron/zith or perhaps Malarone/zith. You can add Bactrim DS to that combo. Bactrim hits both babs and bart, so you will still be treating bart.

I got rid of babs and bart on Bactrim DS (plus one month of Levaquin before the Bactrim).

As I said above, many people don't feel better until they have treated the big 3. (It's like having 3 nails in your foot and expecting to feel better once 2 of them are removed.) So, moving on right now is what I would do.

I can't answer your question about rifampin. But, it is hard for me to believe that months from now you could not go on rifampin again if you want to.

I found this thread that may get to your issue:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/127281#000000

If rifampin didn't do much for you, you may be better off trying another med for bart if you decide to treat bart again later. Levaquin for 30 days was what my lyme doc did. It did the trick for me, I would say.

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twinnick
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How long were you on bactrim? Did you take any other ABX with it? Did/do you have Brain Fog?
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TF
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I was just on Bactrim, and pulsed artemesinin to encompass my flares. I was on it for 11 months, but became symptom-free after 6 months. (I stayed on it for 5 more months because my lyme doctor won't let anyone stop treatment if it is winter or winter is coming on.)

I would say that I didn't have brain fog (slow thinking, difficulty responding and doing simple math or analysis). But, I had memory problems and word-finding problems big time so that I stopped talking in meetings at work. I also made some funny mistakes that showed my brain was not working properly--like putting salt in my tea instead of on my egg, and putting clean plates in the refrigerator.

I had 2 UBOs (unidentified bright objects) show up on my brain scan.

I also had some derealization.

Please know that none of us are exactly alike in our symptoms or the treatment that will work for us. So, finding a person with your identical symptoms isn't that important.

The only reason my doctor had me on only Bactrim is because I could not take any of the meds that are paired with Mepron and Malarone. So, he was forced to have me on just Bactrim. That is not ideal treatment by any means. But, thankfully, it still worked for me.

My doc said that Bactrim will do the trick but it takes twice as long as Mepron/Malarone.

If you can take mepron, zith and bactrim DS, you would be on a great babs protocol.

If you would like to read the notes I took on Dr. H's talk on babesia treatment at a lyme conference a few years ago, they are here:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/112222?

They will give you some great ideas about how to treat babs or boost your treatment.

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twinnick
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Thanks for the feedback.

I understand how everyone's treatment is different as their bodies react differently to various treatments/protocols. But sometimes it is just nice to hear people who DO get better.

As for as the treatment protocol I am starting...forgive as I dont have the names of the ABX in front of me so I may get one wrong. But I believe it is:

Take clindamycin and quinine for 10 days and then take artemisinin and Plaquenil for 10 days. Then repeat this....

Does this sound like a good protocol? Are those 4 ABX only targeting Babs, or do any of them target Lyme (and what forms).

Thanks again.

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TF
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From Burrascano Guidelines:

"Treating Babesia infections had always been difficult, because the therapy that had been recommended until 1998 consisted of a combination of clindamycin plus quinine. Published reports and clinical experience have shown this regimen to be unacceptable, as nearly half of patients so treated have had to abandon treatment due to serious side effects, many of which were disabling. Furthermore, even in patients who could tolerate these drugs, there was a failure rate approaching 50%.

Because of these dismal statistics, the current regimen of choice for Babesiosis is the combination of atovaquone (Mepron, Malarone), 750 mg bid, plus an erythromycin-type drug, such as azithromycin (Zithromax), clarithromycin (Biaxin), or telithromycin (Ketek) in standard doses. This combination was initially studied in animals, and then applied to Humans with good success. Fewer than 5% of patients have to halt treatment due to side effects, and the success rate is clearly better than that of clindamycin plus quinine.. . .

Artemesia (a nonprescription herb) should be added in all cases. (pages 23-24)

http://www.ilads.org/lyme_disease/B_guidelines_12_17_08.pdf

As you can see if you read the Dr. H notes and this Burrascano quote, Dr. H and Burrascano do not use this treatment for babs.

Artemsinin is not an antibiotic. It is an herb used to treat babs. Quinine is also not an antibiotic.

This treatment you will be on targets only babesiosis.

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seibertneurolyme
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Quinine and clindamycin is a very good treatment for babs if the dose is high enough -- needs to be IDSA dose in my opinion. But yes it does have potential side effects -- but is much much more cost effective especially if you can tolerate oral clindamycin.

Be sure to increase good bacteria and really need to also include s. boularrdi if taking clindamycin to prevent c. diff.

Personally I would switch the plaquenil for something else such as malarone or just continue the clindy -- have very little confidence in plaquenil as a babs med.

And taking art for 10 days straight is not what the newer research suggests -- 4 or 5 days in a row is what most people do.

Bea Seibert

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twinnick
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Oh my...it's not Artemesia. It's Biaxin. I duno why i was thinking of wormwood. But it's 10 days of Biaxin...

Is Biaxin good?

Posts: 153 | From Midwest | Registered: Jan 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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