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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Dental, bone infection

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Author Topic: Dental, bone infection
CHeart
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Hello,
I'm looking for personal experiences--good and bad--on getting rid of infection in the jawbone. Concerned because of the connection I've heard between Lyme & Co. and necrosis of jaw.

I have two failed root canals with infection. Also wondering about personal experiences--good and bad--with implants. How did it heal? Any rejection or infection issues?

My root canals cannot be fixed and will be extracted. I'm considering a removable partial (cannot do a bridge and don't want one) instead of implants because of possible difficulty in healing the bone infection and trying to keep my body from attacking the implants. (I know it is not the best aesthetically.)

This is all just my thinking, thus looking for personal experiences with healing of jawbone and healing after implants. Thank you!!!
Carol [confused]

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trigal2
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Well I can only comment on implants. I ALWAYS get a flare up of lyme symtoms after major dental work. I know other do as well so be careful....

Last year I had 3 root canals and one implant. The root canals still hurts(urgggg).

As far as the implant goes. I had same day implant and crown. It took me a few months to heal. The smug Oral Surgeon said I would heal in about 4 weeks and would be pain free in a couple of days. WRONG!!! I had so much throbbing where the implant was placed and then my gums got all burning and the teeth in front of the implant got sore.Just a mess.

He put me on some abx that is also used for lyme (forget which one) so I don't know if that helped or hurt.

A year later all is okay but it did take much longer then I was told to heal and the Surgeon has no answer as to why..It did seem to flare up my lyme symptoms as well. Thats about all I can share. Best of luck to ya. TG

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Lymetoo
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I've heard not so good stories about trying to remove infection in the jaw through surgery if that is what you are asking.

And implants are no better than root canals when it comes to harboring infection.

I feel for you!!!

Do a search here on past discussions by clicking on the little word "search" up above.

--------------------
 -

--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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lpkayak
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well-two of us (me and a close friend who is on here) had good results getting rid of root canals.

he also had the infected bone taken out with good results-it wasn't clear if my bone was infected so we haven't done it yet

we went to montreal-it was easy and cheaper-pm me if you want docs name

(or ask me to pm you...i don't seem to be receiving them)

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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Neil M Martin
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CHeart

I presume you've seen Dr. S, DDS in your city.
I've heard he is tops. Cleaning osteonecrosis etc from my jaws was vital to my survival.

Neil

--------------------
Neil

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Brussels
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I would say no to implants too. I use a removable partial, got used to it now. it's never like your own teeth, but I'd rather have that than lyme disease forever.

I removed infections from jawbone (cavitations), both old root canals harbored infections, bad ones deep into the bones, very visible to the eye (but not to the xrays)... Only when the surgeon pulled them out he believed!

Never anymore got any trouble there, the decade old dull pain finished at the DAY of the surgery NEVER to return. My health improved from the procedure, I believe. Only to get that dull pain out felt wonderful.

I'm now in remission for the last 8 months.

No normal dentist accept the fact that I didn't want an implant. So I went to an 'abnormal' dentist!!! I couldn't have a bridge either and wouldn't anyway, as it destroys the lateral teeth.

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lymie_in_md
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Carol -- whatever you put in your mouth, make sure the materials are bio-compatible with your body.

I've had very bad tmj and extremely infected cavitations. I've had all cavitations ozoned, which to me is better then surgery. One of my cavitations was sooooo bad that after treatment I developed lock jaw for about 8 weeks. My mouth is much better.

I have a bridge because one of my permanent teeth never materialized. I know better now. A removable partial would be better. I have several root canals, so far they are not infectious. At this point I would have a pretty good sense of it.

I'm in remission almost two months now.

Good luck Carol...

--------------------
Bob

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CHeart
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Thanks so much for all the comments.

As to the bone infection which resulted from bad root canals,it would be scraped out when the root canals are removed.

My concern is wondering how hard it is to actually get all the infection since I've heard about necrosis of the jaw in lyme patients.

Carol

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carly
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Carol said...
quote:

My concern is wondering how hard it is to actually get all the infection since I've heard about necrosis of the jaw in lyme patients


That would be the challenge. It's critically important to have an oral surgeon with much experience in this procedure.

It's not really a "routine procedure". A person with lyme disease is not really a "routine patient", never mind how misunderstood the scope of LD is. There's room for error.

Neil said...
quote:

Cleaning osteonecrosis etc from my jaws was vital to my survival.

No personal experience in this matter to offer you, just wishing you-

Good luck.

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CHeart
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Thanks, Carly. I did send a PM to Neil asking about the Dr. S in my area. I'm actually seeing a Dr. S, oral surgeon, but I have no idea if it is the same one!
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GiGi
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http://www.tuberose.com/Root_Canals.html

I think I have been posting about root canals here for ten years. Little has changed over the last years.
You will find some interesting input by a number of people.

Avoid them.

Take care.

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map1131
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CHeart, please read all the posts and info from Gigi on dental issues. Just a search on this site and there's tons of great info.

Pam

--------------------
"Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill

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psano2
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Whatever you do, don't take biphosphonates if you have osteoporosis. They can cause necrosis of the jaw. A study by the USC school of Dentistry found that the underlying cause of the necrosis were bacteria in biofilms, which we have plenty of, so we're more susceptible to necrosis of the jaw/bones than healthy people would be.
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Brussels
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CHeart, the procedure to remove my 2 decade old molars with root canals and remove cavitations that both teeth caused, took me about 1 hour or a bit more. So about 30-40 minutes per tooth...

I would only recommend a biological dentist versed in energetic testing. The eye cannot see what energetic tests can.

There's no other way I know to pin point the exact location of jaw infection, when the naked eye sees nothing anymore. The working space is teeny, and the doc cannot just drill all over without knowing where exactly.

My dentist used energetic testing (through my doctor), and like that, cleaned the jawbone infection in about 15-20 minutes for each tooth.

The remaining time was anesthesy + pulling + preparing my homeopathic remedy from my own crushed teeth (with bacteria and toxins present there).

The above 1 hour procedure worked for me. My health did get better slowly, but steadily. I did that in 2007.

What was crazy was that I only used 2 or 3 homeopathic products before the surgery and after it, to prevent pain and infection from surgery.

I couldn't believe that that would work as I had been newly reinfected (on top of my chronic infection) and was herxing like hell those days (I entered the dentist office and ran to the toilet to EAT MSM in spoons, the only thing that could calm me down).

I was living on ingested MSM every 2 hours or so because of awful babesial herxes. And I didn't take any abx to prevent infection from the procedure, and NOTHING happened there after.

No big pains, no infection, nothing. The surgery wounds healed by themselves. Only controlled with homeopathy!

Yes, certainly, one needs someone with experience. In my case, it was a combined work between surgeon (who doesn't do energetic tests) and my doc (who does it for the surgeon). But they worked on this procedure together for years.

For less invasive procedures, ozone injections could be the way. I wonder for how long one would be needing ozone injections though... And if thioethers and mercaptans wouldn't be an issue after... anyway.

The main problem comes AFTER the surgery, in my opinion: what materials to use on partials that are biocompatible with you?

Then to get used to the new structure in your mouth (in my case, it's made of purest gold possible).

Then the aesthetic problem in case these teeth are frontal.... I still have two root canaled teeth to go that are frontal and the ONLY reason I don't take them off is because I don't know what aesthetical solution I could find for partials.

I used ozone in these frontal teeth, but I feel it's still a temporary solution. If anyone has any suggestion, I'm all ears!

I hope this description from the caviatation procedure helps. I'm sure that's not the only way. But I wonder if there's ANY other way OUT of energetic testing to do the surgery...

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db
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I haven't posted in some time. I was treated for Lyme back in 01. Since Aug. of this year I've had 3 root canals and need 2 more. 2 of the teeth had already had previous root canal and crowns. When this is all said in done I will have 9 root canals/crowns in my mouth. The current dental work has seemed to stir up some of my old symptoms, too. I read GiGi's info. Always a good soure of information. I just wonder if pulling my teeth is the answer??? Would that be less toxic? And then what do I do...get dentures? Feedback appreciated. Take care all. Thank you. db
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NanaDubo
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My biological dentist will not even do a root canal.

I had my root canal teeth pulled and the bone cleaned up. Probably one of the best things I've done for my health.

They tested me for hundreds of different substances to replace fillings. The one that works best with me is from Germany, partially made of glass and very expensive.

It keeps me on my toes as I really don't want to have to pay for any more fillings!

I would definitely have them pulled db, and the bone cleaned thoroughly by a knowledgeable dentist. They don't all know how to do this properly.

If you have to get dentures or a partial - well at least you will be rid of the infections the root canals harbor.

I've read they are similar to mustard gas in terms of toxicity!

ND

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db
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ND

Thanks so much for the reply. I'm in mega pain today so I know the tooth/perhaps jaw is very infected. The dental college here/endo. dept. started this root canal. They have called in abx for me and pain meds. I'm seeing another dentist tomorrow and asking him if he can pull it. Probably will need to see oral surgeon? There is a crown on it already. I haven't hurt this bad since my Lyme treatment.

And similar to mustard gas in terms of toxicity. BAD BAD BAD!

One more question: the term biological dentist is new to me. Will you tell me more about them, pls.? I need to do a search on one I suppose on the internet and see if I can find one.

Again, thank you.

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NanaDubo
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You can search for a dentist at
IAOMT.org. International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology.

I found a great one through word of mouth. Sometimes that's the best way.

Maybe post on "seeking doctor".

They use substances (through various types of testing) that are compatible with your body instead of adding more toxic substances,

are trained in the safe removal of amalgam fillings and basically don't look at your mouth, teeth an jaw as being separate from the rest of your body in terms of health!

The website I gave you will have lots of info.

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ericaf
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How can you find out if your jaw is infected? I had a infected molar tooth extracted but the dentist didn't scrape the bone just checked to see if any part of the granuloma was still inside.
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Keebler
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-
I had "burning mouth" and a mouth full of Aphthous ulcers for four years straight. My jaw bones ached terribly. My dentist suggested I see an oral surgeon but one was not on my insurance plan.

So, by chance when starting the Buhner protocol with first just andrographis - within ONE week, my mouth got MUCH better.

Now 1 1/2 years later, I still rely on andrographis but it sure seems to be working. I go off it now and then for up to a week.

I need to find a previous post I did for this earlier this week as my hands can't type more. I'll be back with details.

Andrographis has been used for dental infections in Europe for many years. you may need more than that but it's a start.
-

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Keebler
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-
What does your LLMD say about all this?

I would ask the LLMD and also a LL ND (naturopathic doctor) about IV GARLIC.

==========================

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

PubMed Search:

Andrographis - 256 abstracts

Andrographis, infection - 25 abstracts

Andrographis, inflammation - 14 abstracts

Andrographis, edema - 2 abstracts

A Google Search with the following combinations brings some good links:

Andrographis "dental caries"

=========================

Andrographis is mentioned here:


http://tinyurl.com/6lq3pb (through Amazon)

THE LYME DISEASE SOLUTION (2008)

- by Kenneth B. Singleton , MD; James A. Duke. Ph.D. (Foreword)

You can read more about it here and see customer reviews.

Web site: www.lymedoctor.com

==========================


Andrographis has a full discussion here:

http://tinyurl.com/5vnsjg


Book: Healing Lyme: Natural Healing And Prevention of Lyme Borreliosis And Its Coinfections - by Stephen Harrod Buhner


website: http://planetthrive.com/2009/08/buhner-healing-lyme-program/

-----

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/86857

Topic: Buhner Healing Lyme Q & A links have changed

=========================

It's best to read ALL about it before starting. Buhner's book has the best detail I've seen. He mentions an andrographis gel used for dental purposes in Europe but I cannot find that here. I just chew a tablet and let it roll around my mouth with a little bit of coconut oil. It is very bitter, but I don't mind as it works.

And the instructions for starting slowly should be followed.

Andrographis may upset the stomach at first and will definitely increase fatigue for the first few weeks (which is understandable due to it's effectiveness). It helps tremendously with sleep and it calms down some of that excitatory brain stuff very nicely.

It also helped decrease swelling of my ankles (and increased the need to get rid of all that water so stay close to a bathroom).


=============

The vitacost link below is the brand recommended by Buhner and the one that I use. Starting with just one, I suggest using after brushing and chewing the capsule so that the paste made by chewing it can stay in your mouth for hours or overnight. I add just a touch of coconut oil to soften it.

If during the day, I also open up and add part of a licorice capsule. The sweetness of the licorice balances the strong bitterness of the andrographis.

You can also use DGL, day or night. Neither DGL nor licorice are stong enough alone, I needed the andrographis.

Allicin capsules, swallowed in the middle of a meal also helped. The very best allicin I've used (and I've tried them all) is from www.hepapro.com

====================

http://www.vitacost.com/Planetary-Herbals-Full-Spectrum-Andrographis


Andrographis


=====================

Lyme can attack bone structure as can other spirochetal infections common to the mouth.

In addition to addressing infection, you might also consider Kudzu root, also called Puerariae:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12928827?ordinalpos=55&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum


J Bone Miner Metab. 2003;21(5):268-75.
Links

Puerariae radix prevents bone loss in ovariectomized mice.

==================

You would need to confer with a specialist, too, of course. You would need to know as much as you can about what, specifically, is going on. After that, I would seek out a LL ND and discuss possible treatments or backup support.

====================

If you have access to rife you might consider that for a frequency that can help bone repair. Certain specific vibrations have been shown to help bones heal with broken legs.

As you'd be near the ears, you'd need to be careful about what kind of vibrations but the rife does have a frequency for this that does not irritate my ears - and nearly everything else does.

You can start research with a Google search: "bone healing" vibration

===============

A waterpik is essential, too. But, be careful if you have pockets of infection, not to have the water pressure too high as to break nearby tissue.
-

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randibear
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i can only comment on what mike went through with his jaw. he went in for a cleaning and the dentist told him he had a bad case of gingivitis. they did tests and the infection was in the jaw bone.

they did a surgery where they opened his jaw, scraped the bone and cleaned things out. it was horrible. he was in soooo much pain.

they did pull some teeth and he stayed on massive antibiotics for while, but he came through ok.

now he flosses every day is is meticulous about his teeth.

i understand how you feel and hope you get better soon.

--------------------
do not look back when the only course is forward

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seekhelp
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What on average is the dental bill you've footed to see these biological dentists? I'm interested, but scared to death they charge a fortune. I'm assuming since so many of you go to them here that we're not talking thousands. Any ranges?
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randibear
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we had some insurance coverage because it was a kind of surgery but i remember we paid out of pocket about 2 grand.

--------------------
do not look back when the only course is forward

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Lymetoo
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My biological dentist was not very expensive at all...but he's out in the country. Has his office next to his home.

HI cousin, db!!! (yes, she's my real cousin!!) [hi]

--------------------
 -

--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Brussels
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My surgery, I think, was about 900 dollars (pulled two teeth, plus cavitation)... Or on that range. Then the partial made of purest gold possible was about 2,000 dollars, I think.

Ericaf: I also had granuloma in one of the teeth. I described how the dentist scraped my jaw in my post above. The visual scraping of the granuloma took about 1-3 minutes, then he was done. What takes time is the 'invisible' scraping, done through energetic testing. About 10-20 minutes by tooth.

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tickalert
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How would I find someone to do ozone injections into the cavitations.

I too have lots of root canals. I consulted with a biological dentist about possibly doing the cavitation surgery. He wanted $20,000.00 to do every thing include full restoration.

I do not have that kind of money.

He was trained by Dr. H in Reno who I know is in retirement but working on some thing else too.

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Haley
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What exactly is Ozone injections or therapy?

I need to get several root canals taken care of. My LLMD said that I may be able to get HBOT based on the infection in my jaw. Has anyone done that?

I had a CT of my jaw which most oral surgeons said hmmm that looks very abnormal, one said they thought it looked like a tumor. I still don't have a real diagnosis so I am sending the films to a radiologist that specializes in Jaw CTs.

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jbgoth
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up.....
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GiGi
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Root canals are bad because they cause cavitations. Cavitations spread and eventually ruin the jawbone. Once gone too far, the only way is surgical removal of cavitation which always involves bone loss. Pathogen heaven. There is no solution except early intervention.
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Annelet
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I had Osteonecrosis of the jaw that required 8 surgeries and the loss of 10 teeth over a period of 3 years. The I discovered that the Actonel that i was taking for Osteoporosis was now known to cause necrosis of the jaw. I had another surgery, this time with no Actonel and it healed up well this time. I am not convinced that the Actonel was the sole culprit......i had had cavitations discovered before that. But i am sure it made things so out of control. I suspect that Bartonella was behind it all in my case.

Interestingly it was the 2 months of IV antibiotics that put me on the path to discovering that my 10 years of CFS was actually Lyme. I felt great on the abx, and relapsed badly within 2 weeks of the PICC line being removed.

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rks
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I can't prove anything, but I think pulling oil has helped with my gum disease.

A couple of years ago, it seemed all of a sudden that my dental problems had come and would not quit, seemed to get worse with each visit.

I have had some bone loss and receding of gums that I had to have surgery on. One tooth is almost lost and spreading to another, which I have'nt had surgery on yet and might not.

I started pulling oil about a year ago and my periodentist said that so far everything is holding steady with no further deterioration.

I have decided to hold off on any further dental work, just getting my cleanings and continue to pull oil and hope that after my lyme/babesiosis/blo treatment is done, then the dental problems have cleared as well.

Of course if things start going down hill fast, I'll have to reevaluate, but for now that is my plan. And, since my perio said ok for now, then I'm sticking to it.

I really recommend people with serious dental problems to try pulling oil.

You can start every morning on an empty stomach, taking a tablespoon of cold-pressed, extra virgin sesame oil and rolling it through your teeth for 20 minutes. Do not swallow.

More information is here:
http://www.oilpulling.com/oilpullingmethod.htm
http://www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/oil_pulling.html

Since I've been pulling oil, my teeth have gotten whiter and my gums have gotten pinker, healthier looking and grown more around my teeth.

Posts: 217 | From Earth | Registered: Feb 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
echorox2
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Member # 20613

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can someone please tell me what is "pulling oil"
Posts: 18 | From Waterford, Ireland | Registered: Jun 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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