A study done in Autralia showed that bartonella easily become resistant to fluoroquinolones.
This study was done in vitro, so not on humans, but in a petri dish.
It may be that bartonella strains are different in Australia than America.
However, is does seem to contradict what Dr. B and others say about the use of levaquin to treat bart.
Just some food for thought. Hiker53
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10220 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
Hey Hiker. I started levaquin low dose 250mg a day almost 25 days ago. I'm doing many other alternative methods with the levaquin to help detox etc.
I had some pretty bad GI stuff going on for months. I had a GI specialist who was a good friend and many tests done to see if they could identify what was causing my increase in GI/colon problems for over 2 years.
They couldn't identify the bug that bite me. But when I told my GI friend last week that all my issues were resolved in the GI after I started levaquin, he wasn't surprised. After all he had done all testing from one end of me to the other.
He said some of the microscopic bacteria were NOT easily identified or treated. He asked me what abx and what dose my Intern doc put me on. He was pretty surprised that I was controlling the dosage and not doing 500mg.
I told him that I've done high doses of abx before and I wasn't willing to go back to that world. I'm doing zero meds or stool softeners that the GI recommended.
A 5 day vacation in mid March to NYC and my sx contolling my fun time by putting me in the bathroom for the day was over. I came back from that vacation feeling like death. Ear, nose and throat infections, bowel infections and skin lesions all pointed me to levaquin.
I just don't know for sure it's Bart. It might of been his friend Strep or Staph. Doesn't really matter which one. They are slowly dying a slow death. They have only taken me down by hours, not days on end.
Since levaquin..the detoxing methods I'm doing are helping control the bacteria that has been attacking my gums around my last remaining chronic teeth, my hands and my feet.
It's good sign that abx have gotten to those areas. I'm now going to sleep at a decent hour and sleeping like a baby for 9 hrs.
The body's way to heal is real sleep. I don't feel toxic like I did in my old abx days for over 3 yrs. My liver, gall bladder, kidneys, stomach and colon are happy and functioning properly.
GI specialist asked how long I plan to take levaquin? I don't know the answer to that. But I don't see myself doing any abx long term?
I wish I would of gone there 6 months ago when I was so miserable. I thought the bacteria could be identified. That was wishful thinking.
Bart, Strep or Staph I'm not living with you anymore. Out the door. Detox, rest and cleansing of body is key. So I believe Dr B & Dr K (Gigi's) combination is working for me.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
That's why quinolones are never given alone(for lyme/bart anyway), but with a synergistic abx like doxy or zithro. According to my LLMD this makes the bacteria unable to develop resistance.
AFAIK, some other infections like tuberculosis are treated with multiple abx so that the chances of developing resistance are minimized.
-------------------- Why me? Well, why not me??? Posts: 411 | From San Francisco, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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map1131
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posted
Well, I've done combos of abx. Like I said, I'm not going back to toxic hell. Not only that there's more than one way to kill any super bacteria or TB, too.
Some can do four types of abx at one time and all it seems to kill is their body and vital organs. Talk about drug resistant?
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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jamescase20
Unregistered
posted
That doctor in fla said that you have to treat bart with HH caps from zhangs, I found this same herb in bulk much cheaper, but who knows how safe that would be. Of course I would use a floroquone with it, and this doctor also said you have to treat, then stop wait 2 weeks for bart to come back out, and then retreat it, otherwise it will never go away. Just my 2 cents.
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I just want to be clear that I am not arguing against levaquin and I am glad it is helping some of you!! I just found the study interesting.
I, of course, wish everyone on this site to find a treatment that cures them quickly--whatever that treatment may be. Blessings. Hiker53
P.S. James, how long does the Florida doctor say you should take levaquin to start with before taking a two week break?
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10220 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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tdtid
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10276
posted
Not really what I wanted to hear, since I just barely passed my two month point on Levaquin. And I've asked my LLMD if I could add another med to it and he keeps dragging his feet.
As all of us, I just want to get this dang disease behind me, but everytime we turn around, there is a glitch that makes us wonder what we CAN be taking to get on the right track.
Thanks for the article. Knowledge is a powerful tool for us in cases like this. I just don't know what the alternative is yet.
Cathy
-------------------- "To Dream The Impossible Dream" Man of La Mancha Posts: 2638 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Oct 2006
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ByronSBell 2007
Unregistered
posted
They are resistent because of biofilm and you might not be at a high enough dose. If you really want to get rid of Bartonella, you need:
High dose IV abx w/ heparin and supporting supplements to reduce the (biofilm/fibrin) This keeps the drugs from getting to the bugs. If you can't do these things then you are not attacking the bug and you are not reaching the bartonella in the brain at all! That is where it stays most of the time.
They also hide in red blood cells so it can take time to get rid of them as well.
Out of lyme, bart, babesia, ect..... Bartonella is the hardest to treat but is easily beaten with what I posted
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map1131
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posted
Bryan, that's exactly why I was thrilled that the levaquin I was doing was obvisiously felt in my gums/teeth, feet and hands. Oh yeah, periods of brain fog too. That was at low doses.
My LLMD had dx me as needing heparin in 02-3. I did heprin for a year. I was one walking talking toxin then with no telling which combo of abx.
Sometimes it makes sense to go after one bad guy at a time. As one army (lyme & co) they are stronger than any combo of abx and very resistant.
You have to know who your enemy is to fight and win. Don't give them a chance to resist. Your own immune system will turn on you.
James, for two years I've suspected bart was a two week cycler. IMHO, that's what I was living.
Hiker, it's always good to know pros and cons of any treatment. But I've got to wonder if the "bacteria" is the tendon wrecker or the abx?
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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Rianna
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posted
Not only do you need heparin you should try trental as this helps the penetration of levaquin further as it opens blood capillaries
Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Dear Rianna,
Interesting! I'd never heard of this drug, so I looked it up. The info online says that it causes blood thinning--that the blood flows more freely and is less viscous. No mention of trental opening the capillaries. I'm wondering where you got that data, as it's a very different effect.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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Rianna
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Cass A - Trental is used to prevent stickness of the blood and to open up blod capillaries, heparin is normally used to thin the blood and break down fibrogen.
My LLMD says he uses Trental with Levaquin to enable further penatration of the drug, I assume as they know bart hides out in the blood capilleries this is why it is used with bart meds. I also take Heparin throughout lyme and antibotic treatment.
AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
Dr.B has said that they are still uncertain if the "Bartonella-Like Organism" is actually a Bartonella species or a different organism altogether.
The reason for referring to it as "Bartonella-Like" is because the Sx are similar to Bartonella & it does have SOME response to ABX that usually Tx Bart. Those ABX, however, will only control or reduce it while you are taking them.
He has found that Levaquin WILL actually eradicate this organism.
The LDA website has a link to Dr.B's video, "Bartonella - A Clinician's Viewpoint". He discusses this in detail. IMO - it's definitely worth watching.
I think you need to copy & paste this into the browser address bar because I can't make an rtsp link work from here:
Interesting find with the Bart resistance, but I think they are likely speaking of something other than Dr.B's "BLO".
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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Cass A
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Member # 11134
posted
Der Rianna,
Thanks for answering my question!
So, it seems we have several different effects to consider:
blood less sticky (coagulation) blood thinner fibrin-eating capillary or blood vessel dialation (opening)
I can't tell if a blood thinner and a coagulatin-reducer are the same thing or not. I know that Coumaden (otherwise known as a rat poison because the rat's blood can't coagulate, so they bleed to death) is an anti-coagulant and also promoted as a "blood thinner."
In the non-pharmaceutical arena, from what I have experienced personally, Rechts Regulat definitely "thins" the blood--it flows more freely. I have also seen this referred to as reducing coagulation to a more normal level.
Niacin opens up the blood vessels, but for a short time. It also reacts with toxins, so too much can cause very uncomfortable reactions.
Any systemic enzyme would eat fibrin, like Vitalzyme or Wobenzyme.
Supposedly, Lumbrokinase specifically gets into the capillaries and eats the fibrin there, especially in the brain.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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