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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Mild Hyperbaric Treatment (Page 40)

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Author Topic: Mild Hyperbaric Treatment
Phoiph
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Digby~

LOL...I don't remember trying to talk you into starting mHBOT...I just recall trying to talk you out of stopping!

I dont think you would have ever quit though...its not in your vocabulary...:)

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Digby
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Well, everytime I dove I got a severe headache that required serious pain meds. What was interesting was that the headache would disappear
while I was at pressure and come back an hour later.

Over the course of the 25 dives (I did 5 per week) I got worse over all...just an intensifying of all my symptoms, especially fatigue.

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Phoiph
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I remember...and it was amazing that you still kept going.

In retrospect, do you have any theories as to why you had the headaches (at the time, we had discussed possible vascular shifts during and after the dives)?

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willbeatthis
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What an amazing round table. Table of experts - Digby and Phoiph.

Just wanted to give a little update since going KETO full on. OMG how come I did not do it FULL ON sooner. I have virtually NO pain. It is miraculous (well in my life anyway). And, I feel my MHBOT is going better too. Much easier.

I am so thankful to have the level of caring support that we have on this team. Phoiph- thank you for your call and helping me from a storm breakdown [Smile] Did not know about the fuse!

Happydays and Hominahomina, hang in. Keep moving forward. NEVER, EVER give up.... HUGS ALL AROUND!

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Digby
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Phoiph, I wish I did. Headaches are still in my top 3 symptoms. The soft chamber doesn't make them worse anymore, even if I pressurize quickly. I'm sure the vascular response is part of it.
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Haley
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Digby

Do you have any dental materials in your mouth? I’m having all my crowns removed and several root canals pulled.

I had one tooth done that still had mercury in it. I woke up for the first time in years without a clogged sinus.

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Digby
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Haley, I do have quite a few composite filings. I had all my amalgam filings removed in the early 80s and chelated in various ways pretty consistently since then. I can't say that I felt any better from all that.
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Phoiph
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Willbeatthis~

You're very welcome...glad it was just the fuse, and was an easy fix.

So happy to hear you're doing better!

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Haley
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As long as you don’t have metals in your mouth, then the headaches are probably not coming from your mouth.

I also realized, when checking my pH of my saliva every morning, that my teeth are soaking in acid because of all the metal in the crowns. I don’t have any mercury in my mouth, but I do have lots of cheap metal crowns.

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OzLyme
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Thanks to all for contributing to this very informative thread. Im gradually making my way through it, but it's very long and will take me a while haha

I really want to start mHBOT sometime, but unfortunately I have quite bad eustachian tube dysfunction, with popping and crunching in one ear for YEARS. This is the ear where I was bitten by a tick id imagine, and where I got a very bad otitis externa infection whilst swimming in thailand. Showed it to an ENT on numerous occasions to no avail. Aside from them prescribing me steroid spray which im convinced allowed the bugs to migrate to my brain.

Im doing my best to clear my nasal passages from the infections that are no doubt there, with sprays etc, but i think i have some paralysis from Lyme + cos in my neck muscles and extreme tightness (along with general parkinsonian and cognitive probs)... so im not convinced the sprays + physio etc will sort it out enough, before HBOT.

I hope to be starting HBOT sometime and will post my results. But any ideas on how to work around this eustachian tube / sinus problems? Or is a complete contraindication? I think i can improve them, but probably not completely until I treat the Lyme + cos... which is why im looking at HBOT... which comes full circle again!

Any pointers much appreciated

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kgg
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Welcome, OzLyme! I don't believe it is a complete contraindication. But it is important. When my sinuses are stuffy and I am concerned that I won't be able to clear my ears, I will use an allergy med and a decongestant about an hour prior to diving. I also make sure I take 10 minutes to dive and stop if I develop any ear pain.
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Phoiph
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Hi OzLyme~

I agree with kgg, that is not necessarily a deal breaker, but you must approach the process slowly and carefully.

If you feel any pain (pressure that can be equalized by clearing your ears is normal) while pressurizing, you must release some pressure from the chamber immediately, and dive at a slightly lower pressure (where you have no pain) for that session. If you continue to work up in this way, your ears should adjust over time.

If you have trouble equalizing your ears in general, you can try the "Cobra" yoga position in the chamber while pressurizing and depressurizing.

In more extreme cases, people have had ear tubes placed so they could do HBO.

MBDQ, one of our earliest divers here, posted these suggestions on a thread in 2013:

MBDQ:
"...I have had ear issues as well, doing the mild HBOT. I gave myself barotrauma by going in the chamber while I was congested and not being able to easily clear my ears. I am doing better now, although I can still hear crackling in my Eustachian tubes when I yawn and swallow.

The barotrauma absolutely terrified me because I feel like the mHBOT is really causing me to herx and it has helped my debilitating migraines. I want to be able to continue treatment.

An ENT confirmed the barotrauma and I had to take a break for a few weeks. I then worked back up to full pressure slowly.

I use the following to help:
1) Go up and down as slowly as possible so you can concentrate on clearing your ears and "staying with and ahead" of the pressure changes. Basically, keep clearing your ears constantly- which for me is leaning my head back and yawning, moving my jaw from side to side

2) If an ear is not clearing easily, go back up and get to a depth where the ears are clearing again, then you can try descending again

3) I use a device that has been helpful called an ear popper if I feel I am having trouble clearing. It blows air up your nose while you swallow, popping the ears. You can purchase without a prescription via Amazon. $250 but worth it for me and my ear issues. Some HBOT places have them for patients to use.

4) Do not put a pillow behind your head in descent and ascent- I find it is easier to clear the ears with the head tilted back and flat on the mattress.

5) Out of the chamber practice the valsalva maneuver or other ear clearing practices to train your ears to clear more easily. This is still tough for me, despite being able to clear in the chamber. I guess my anatomy doesn't like it.

6) If necessary, use decongestants to help you. Some HBOT centers have people use Afrin and/or Mucinex. For me, this is not ideal as they can cause rebound mucous and dependence.

7) try to make sure you are as decongested as possible before going in. Get your lymph moving via a short brisk walk, gently rebounding, bouncing on an exercise ball etc. I also use a neti pot to try and keep the sinuses clear. I am prone to stuffiness and have enlarged adenoids.

Overall, do not dive if you have barotrauma. You need to heal first then try again. I'm sorry. This is so frustrating!!..."

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20PlusLyme
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quote:
Originally posted by Happydays:
With 1.5 still being such minor pressure, you'd think that it wouldn't have a detrimental effect, but it sure did produce a much greater herxy effect than 1.3. So now I am back to 1.3 and feeling much better.

ATA and small numbers can be confusing. To compare 1.3ATA to 1.5 ATA, subtract the 1 (since we are starting at 1 atmosphere) to see the relative change.

Increasing from .3 ATA to .5 ATA is adding .2, which is a 66% increase in pressure, not a minor change.

BTW, to convert from ATA to PSI, multiply by 14.69

.3 * 14.69 = 4.407 PSI

.5 * 14.69 = 7.345 PSI

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Phoiph
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Another way to look at it:

1.3 ATA (0.3 atmospheres) is equivalent to the pressure at approximately 10 feet underwater.

1.5 ATA (0.5 atmospheres) is equivalent to the pressure at approximately 16.5 feet underwater.

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OzLyme
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Thanks kgg and Phoiph!

Ill look into getting one of those ear opener things. Really, for me, i think whatevers stuck up in my eustachian tube / sinuses / god knows where... is a big part of my problems. Maybe a biofilm, maybe fungus, not sure. But I felt something sliding in my ears last night, and my muscles were tightening and relaxing as it moved. Scary! Was half expecting a worm or a biofilm to fall out, but it never does, unfortunately.

(Btw ive seen an ENT numerous times, sinuses mostly "normal" on camera, and my brain MRI showed mild sinus inflammation / swelling... so they think its a mild, acute infection event theyve captured... but its been ongoing, been that way for many many years now, so im sure its contributing / heavily implicated in my illness)

So ill keep researching HBOT via this thread (i actually emailed that company about shipping to Aus but havent heard back yet) and keep researching possible solutions to my inner ear probs.

I look forward to adding my HBOT experiences to this thread once i get there

[ 09-24-2018, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: OzLyme ]

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OzLyme
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...and i just learned i have mild to moderate sleep apnea. Though just on the surface it seems like it would help a lot, Ive read conflicting things - that HBOT helps, and other sources saying it doesn't.

Anyone know anyone who has used it for helping with sleep apnea?

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kgg
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Phioph may have interacted with someone with sleep apnea and mHBO. I have not. My young adult son has what they call mild sleep apnea. Mild being that he stops breathing 14 times in a hour. That does not sound mild to me. Anyway, he uses a CPAP and he feels incredibly worse if he does not use it. So he has 100% compliance.

Imho, sleep is the foundation of our health. Any good Lyme doc starts with how we are or are not sleeping. Please look into a CPAP or APAP machine.

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OzLyme
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Oh, I definitely am. I booked into the next available appointment as soon as the sleep doc rang me today, and tried to get in sooner. My interest in HBOT is not for apnea treatment, its for Lyme mostly, to perhaps help reduce the damage I've already done. Sorry I should have made that clear

Im already sleeping terribly. Mostly night sweat style things, but im afraid its actually REM Sleep Behaviour Disorder, which goes along with Parkinsons / Lewy Body.

Considering ive been going to see Drs for about 8 months telling my symptoms, being told its in my head etc, and no one mentioned getting my sleep tested, until I asked for the study.... Im pretty annoyed with them.

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kgg
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Honestly, OzLyme, it is the same here. And it is criminal. Good for you for advocating for yourself! Many can't or won't and they are worse off for it. I am not familiar with REM Sleep Behaviour Disorder. Will go look it up. I hope it is just the regular sleep apnea that getting the right machine and mask will help. And that given some time your sleep deficit will be taken care of you will feel a little better.
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willbeatthis
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Hi Oz and 20Plus- Welcome! Glad you are both here!

Oz, I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers as you get these things sorted. My dad has sleep apea and the CPAP has been invaluable to him.

Thanks, Phoiph, again for your help! I have been down with something viral but am getting better!

So thankful for MHBOT. Hugs all!

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zeitgeist
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Dear Group

Thank you Happydays for all the good information about your healing journey. You certainly know a lot about this disease.

I need some help when it comes to my treatment with the hyperbaric soft sided chamber.

I got the chamber in 2016 and I have used it for 3-4
Hours a day most days since I bought it.

Until recently I always felt better and even good after one of my sessions.

Recently the hyperbaric hasn't been going well. I have woken up after sleeping for a while in the chamber and I've woken up in bad bad pain in my pelvis. It will hurt to move my hips to each side or forward and backward. It has happened many times in a row. I have needed to take tramadol for the pain.

What can I take to make hyperbaric more effective or less painful for me afterwards?

What is a "binder" and where do I get the good ones?

Besides hyperbaric I've done antibiotic doxicycline for 6 weeks and I also did two different herbal protocols one of which was called "beyond balance".

I also did I.V. vitamins.

I only found relief with the hyperbaric and I want to go on using it if it stops hurting!

Thanks all,
Zeitgeist

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kgg
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Greetings, Zeitgeist. Am I reading it correctly that you are diving for 3-4 hours per day? There are some of us that are diving for 90 minutes but many find that too much. I just wanted to clarify that is what you meant.
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zeitgeist
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Thanks kg for responding.

Yes--I most definitely go for a "dive" every single day and it has been three to four hours for every session.

I have almost always felt great after the hyperbaric.

But now for the first time I'm getting bad pelvis/hip pain.

I have had the hyperbaric since February 2016 and I've used it almost every day since.

I would really like to use it right now because I did an accident to my thumb where it got jammed and my thumb hurts from that right now.

I also have a complicated form of schooliosis which causes me much back pain and injuries and these different sports-type injuries have benefitted from the hyperbaric chamber.

Now I'm so scared to go in there so I'm staying out for a bit.

Any insights or personal experience you can share will be so appreciated!

Thanks,
Zeitgeist

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Hominahomina
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If you would be so kind

Ozlyme
What are you doing for sleep APNEA ?

Zeltfest
How did the vitamin IV help you or did it?

Thanks

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Digby
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zeitgeist...I can't comment on your specific symptom but I will say that 3 to 4 hours a day of mHBOT is excessive and could lead to Oxygen toxicity. The normal hormetic response to increased O2 is to upregulate endogenous antioxidants (among many other responses). If you push the response too hard you will have MORE reactive oxygen species at the cellular level which is just bad!

If it was me I would take a break for a few days and continue at the 60 minute level which we know works.

Peace.

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Phoiph
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zeitgeist~

Important question:

During your 3-4 hour daily sessions...

Are you breathing supplemental oxygen via an oxygen concentrator with your chamber?

Or, are you using the chamber with compressed room air only?

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OzLyme
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Hi Hominahomina

For sleep apnea - Ive just been diagnosed. For the time being, I'm trialling a CPAP machine and think its working quite well. Im really enjoying being able to sleep through the night without depriving my brain of oxygen!

However, since I'm in my early thirties, and would have to potentially wear this thing for many years.... and since I'm always interested in the CAUSE of my conditions... I've been doing some research.

In my case some hormonal drugs i was given my an endocrinologist a few years back may be to blame. Along with Lyme and mould toxicity. Oh and some structural problems with my neck and congestion in sinuses!

So the list is long. However I intend to view this as a kind of challenge, and seek to address all of these problems. In the meantime, I will gladly keep using the CPAP machine. But hopefully Ill get to the stage where one day... i may not need it. Thats the hope / goal, at least

I heard a very interesting podcast where a guest speaker, a neurologist called Dr Gominak did the deep dive on the causes of sleep problems such as sleep apnea, REM disorder, etc.

She links it to the gut microbes and vitamins, and claims that getting the correct vitamin D level along with B vitamins and correct microbiome... can lead to great results.
E.g. REM sleep disorder (Parkinsons) improving, which is usually unheard of. And sleep apnea improving - not needing the CPAP machine in time.

And she mentions how critical sleep is for our health - sleep is when we heal. This has always been terrible news for me, since I've had horrible sleep problems, especially this year. A lot of damage has been done I'm sure. However she also mentions how the brain seems to "keep score" of all the required repairs it needs to do, and tries to "make up" for this once sleeping is restored. So if you can restore the sleep, you can self-heal to quite an impressive extent.

Google Dr Gominak if you're interested.

I intend to also add HBOT in at some stage, to try to help undo some of the damage due to hypoxia, to whatever extent possible.

In the meantime -CPAP is invaluable to me. Good luck!

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zeitgeist
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quote:
Originally posted by Phoiph:
zeitgeist~

Important question:

During your 3-4 hour daily sessions...

Are you breathing supplemental oxygen via an oxygen concentrator with your chamber?

Or, are you using the chamber with compressed room air only?


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zeitgeist
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I have been breathing through a canula every single time and yes I have an oxygen concentrator that I use with the hyperbaric every time.

I am scared--very very scared so I have done less hyperbaric lately. I did skip several days altogether, then the last few days I've done just 90 minutes or 2 hours. Yesterday I did two hours and instead of feeling better afterwards like I always have for years, I seem to feel worse today than yesturday.

This new injury to my back is something I haven't experienced before. I hurt it by doing some back traction on a back revolution machine which tips you upside down from the waist to your head while holding your feet in the air and placing most of the weight on a padded section for your thighs. I have used this machine for traction for years and years but when I used it last it really hurt me and while I was doing it it didn't hurt at all--it felt good and soothing. But the next morning it hurt like hell. It has been eight days of terrible pain and I've used ice, some heat, Muscle relaxers called "soma", Advil, CBD oil, and then I also see a chiropractor every few days to get me in optimal alignment. Even when he gets me optimally aligned, I still feel pain and that is different for me.

What I haven't tried is a hot tub or a bath or an infrared sauna. Our baths are designed for children so I'm worried if I try that that I'll pull a muscle or be in a bad position for my back. Maybe tomorrow I'll go to the YMCA to use the hot tub for a while.

Any encouragement or insights about this back injury and what to try for it and how to use my hyperbaric better and smarter would be appreciated,

Just a warning: I tend to worry excessively especially when people point out things which might be dangerous for my health.

Please be gentle with your experience, strength and hope--thanks

Zeitgeist

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Phoiph
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Hi Zeitgeist~

For reasons that Digby mentioned, IMO you are doing much too much mHBOT.

My suggestion is to take a break from mHBOT for a time (at least a couple of weeks or a month). Then, start up slowly, using a simple Hudson mask or a Southmedic Oxymask instead of a cannula, and to stick to 1 hour per day (not counting pressurizing and depressurizing time).

What type of concentrator and chamber do you have? What LPM setting are you using on your concentrator?

Also, this is not a criticism at all, but I do want people to be safe, so I'm curious as to where the information/advice came from to stay in your chamber for 3-4 hours straight while using 02?

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zeitgeist
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I don't know what the issue with the cannula is; I just find it more comfortable than the whole face mask.

I did have to lower the flow rate with the cannula vs the face mask; I think I am at 5 LPM with my Airsep Concentrator, and I have a Vitaeris 320 chamber. I was using 10 LPM with the face mask.

Nobody told me that three or four hours a day was ok. I just worked up to that feeling better and better each time. So I guess you could say my own body told me because I felt better and better. Is it written down somewhere that going longer than 60 minutes is bad?

I know one hour appears to be some kind of "standard" but I haven't heard of any experiments comparing longer durations either--has anyone studied this?

I learned about my exact hyperbaric from my functional medicine doctor who recommended it for a whiplash injury after a car accident. It helped a lot for that. My doctor said I could do three hours all at once instead of doing 3, 1-hour sessions on three different days because that would save me gas money and the 25-mile trips to her office. That was three hours all at once but it still was only 3 hours a week.

When I got my own Vitaeris I had just received a terrible injury to my arm while a nurse was drawing blood and she wiggled the needle in my arm puncturing a nerve that ran down my arm to my fingers. I got TWO of these Injuries, both from the same office, and exactly one year apart--so actually, I had nerve injuries in each arm. These were foremost in my mind when the hyperbaric was new.

I have cut down on my times lately--keeping it to 90 minutes or two hours.

But now I'm totally scared to use it at all!!

Do you really think taking a few weeks off would be helpful? Why that long?

Zeitgeist

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Phoiph
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zeitgeist~

The cannula delivers less 02 than the Hudson mask or Southmedic Oxymask. I think you might find the open frame Oxymask as comfortable as the cannula.

When using either mask, your Airsep should be set at 8-8.5 LPM, no more, no less. This is the "sweet spot" for efficiency of the Airsep concentrator when used with a chamber. If you go higher, the concentrator will go into an "on demand" 02 delivery mode to conserve 02 purity. This is not ideal for our purposes.

In terms of time spent in the chamber, you have to remember that oxygen is a powerful drug, and like any other drug, dosing is everything. Doing 3 hour mHBOT sessions at once is not the same as doing 1 hour sessions every day for 3 days, just like taking 3 ibuprofen at once is not the same as taking 1 every 12 hours.

You can refer to this explanation by Dr. Paul Harch, who has been researching and treating with mHBOT for decades:

More is Better: The Recurrent Illusion of Higher Pressure HBOT in Chronic Brain Injury, by Dr. Paul Harch:
www.wisconsinhyperbarics.com/research-pdf/more-is-better.pdf

The reason I believe time off from mHBOT might be a good idea, is that you have been doing a high dose of mHBOT for a long time. A 30 day break is often given to patients who have been doing higher dose clinical treatments after 40 to 80 sessions, for reasons Digby mentioned in his earlier post.

Also, I know this is a long thread (40 pages), but I would highly suggest reading it from the beginning to take advantage of other people's trials, errors, and successes. That way, you don't have to re-invent the wheel.

Hope this is helpful...

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zeitgeist
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Dear Group

What can I do now to heal my body today if I've done too many dives for too long?

Is there a supplement of some kind?

Should I take a bunch of antioxidents?

Should I eat a whole bunch of blueberries?

I'm hurting and I miss the chamber but I've stayed

away from it for about a week or so

Should I be doing my far infrared sauna? (I HATE how I feel in the sauna--I've only done it once but it does wonders for my husband Nick who has Lyme Disease too)

If my back bones continue to hurt a lot is it safe enough for me to use the hot tub at the YMCA at 110 degrees farenheit? For how long?

I would consider an Epsom salt bath if our baths were not made for children making it easier to get hurt in the bath.

I could do an Epsom salt foot bath with my feet in a bucket...

Thanks
Zeitgeist

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Phoiph
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zeitgeist~

I don't think you have to "heal" your body from doing too much mHBOT, just take a break, eat quality food, drink a lot of water, rest, etc.

It sounds like your injury was from the inversion table. I would consider consulting a sports medicine specialist for advice on that.

A trained cranial-sacral practitioner may be helpful as well.

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Looking4hope
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Hey Phoiph


I'm now 50 days both "Klonopin Free/ ALL RX drugs free" for that matter after a grueling fifteen month taper!

I'm diving anywhere from 4 to 5 days a week @1 to 1.5 hr each session! So far very little herxing which is a good thing I guess!

My first question is when you first started diving were you off all RX drugs?

My second question is how long do you think it might potentially take for my nerve pain to get better?

This has undoubtedly been the most horrifying thing I have ever gone through. As Stevie Knix, was quoted as saying "It felt like somebody opened up a door and pushed me into hell"!

BTW I'm now on "TRT Therapy" as a blood test revealed my testosterone was that of a man in his 80s! I'm able to workout from home and I'm eating relatively healthy as well.

I tried to do everything in my power to avoid the dreaded (PAWS) or Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome... however that doesn't seem to be the case.

Overall I feel like crap which unfortunately is often times the case when one finally discontinues the drug all together!

Hope you're doing well Phoiph(-:

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Keebler
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-
Q: ". . . is it safe enough for me to use the hot tub at the YMCA at 110 degrees farenheit? " (end quote)


I don't think anyone with lyme should do a hot tub for any amount of time when it's that hot.

Far infrared sauna is LOW heat - for a reason this is the type recommended to those with lyme and other neurological conditions.

Heat can be very harmful. There may be a few folks with lyme, etc. who could handle heat before and can now but for many it can spell disaster and even nerve damage.

The various nervous systems can also go haywire from getting too hot.

Cozy warm for about 20 is the rule of thumb - if that works. If not, then maybe shorter time, not quite as cozy warm -- or stick to short tepid showers.
-

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tom f
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zeitgeist - going into hot tubs, hot showers and saunas can be counterproductive because of increasing inflammation/herxing that will make you feel horrible. If you have a systematic infection you might not benefit from those things like a healthy person.
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Phoiph
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Hi Looking4hope!

You've come a LONG way...congratulations!

To answer your questions...

1. Yes, I was off of all prescription medicines (including klonipin, which I had been on for at least 5 years) when I started using the chamber. I was at the point where I was unable to take any medications or supplements (and most foods) without severe reactions.

2. My nerve pain gradually improved over the course of two years, although it was a lot better after the first year. There were times it would flare (like with a flu, or if I overdid activity), but it gradually receded. I was, however, doing mHBOT 7 days per week consistently for 2-1/2 years.

Remember, during this first year, especially, I felt terrible also. This was a very gradual recovery...2 steps forward, 1 step back.

Keep the faith, and keep on diving...you will get there!

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tom f
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I'm 5 months in with a 20% improvement. Great improvement, but I seem to have plateaued for almost 3 months - while treating at 5.2 psi and utilizing all 92%+ oxygen. I have decided to go on the Dr. Wheldon combination antibiotic protocol with Hbot to eliminate chlamydia pneumoniae, borrelia or borrelia-like organisms. I am no longer intolerant to antibiotics as I was previous to Hbot.
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Phoiph
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Hi Tom~

I'm not trying to change your mind about going on antibiotics; only offering another perspective.

IMO, 5 months is really not a long enough treatment time to determine that you have plateaued. 20% improvement in that amount of time is very good progress, and I would wager that there are a lot of improvements happening below the surface that you may not be aware of.

The fact that you're no longer intolerant to antibiotics as you were prior to HBOT suggests that it has opened up your detox pathways.

I was improved, but still very ill at 5 months. A number of people here have not seen improvements for a much longer time, only to unexpectedly turn a corner later on.

Also, I am wondering if you are treating at 5.2 psi as you mentioned, or did you mean 4.2? How long are your sessions, and how many days per week?

What are you doing in terms of diet and graded exercise?

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tom f
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Hi Phoiph
I have been treating at 5.2 psi not 4.2 psi and utilizing all the oxygen(don't ask). Treatments have been 1 1/4 hours a day, never missing. Considering the amplified treatment, I feel I'm more than 5 months in. All the improvement happen in the first 2 months.

I try to follow the Terry Wahls MS diet for 75% of the time. I have just been doing light aerobic exercise - walking/stationary bike.

I do have clinical symptoms of Lyme but only test positive for Chlamydophila Pneumoniae. I was getting sick from Porphyria on antibiotics previously - this is consistent withe Cpn bug interfering with the liver's Heme biosynthesis.

Maybe the antibiotic protocol will fail and will fall back to hbot only. Hbot does potentiate antibiotics and improve Heme biosynthesis.

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Hominahomina
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Hello Tom F
Could you elaborate
I was getting sick from porphyia on antibiotics ?

I agree Hbot increases the effect of antibiotics I use flagyl so I know about that for sure and for that matter all the bacteria killers I have tried including colostrum ,Stephen Buhners lyme formula and iodine.

I get significant die off so I do coffee enemas
Lately I have been taking NAC before the coffee enema on empty stomach and get a significant boost in energy and feeling of well being

[ 12-21-2018, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Hominahomina ]

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tom f
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Hominahomina
If you have a Cpn infection, antibiotics can be the tipping point to porphyria...

Secondary porphyria- Depletion of host cell ATP by Chlamydia pneumoniae means that your cells don't have enough energy to complete their normal biochemical reactions.

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Hominahomina
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i wanted to elaborate on a previous post
NAC in conjunction with Coffee enema

I have found that taking a couple 600mg NAC capsules
a couple hours before a coffee enema really gives me a significant amount of strength and energy. My mind seems to work better late into the night too It does not hype me up and I can sleep at sleep time

This is due I think to increased glutathione which I am probably low on

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Phoiph
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Hi Tom...

Well, as you probably already guessed, I don't agree that "amplified" treatment (i.e., higher dose), necessarily means you will recover faster. Deep healing from chronic illness with mHBOT takes time; usually quite a bit longer than 5 months.

Also I'm sure you know, strengthening the immune system and healing the gut is key.

I just want to make sure you are aware of the time frame so you can make an informed decision.

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tom f
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Phoiph
I the last 2 1/2 years I have been on the Buhners Lyme protocol, Buhner CPN protocol, Zhang Lyme protocol, Paleo Diet, Paul Jaminet Perfect Health Diet & Terry Wahls MS Diet. I have had a good foundation well before Hbot.

I'm not sure I have Lyme - I tested positive for Chlamydia pneumoniae and the symptoms overlap. I only have clinical Symptoms of Lyme. I am not convinced Hbot can remove Cpn.

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Phoiph
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Actually, I tested positive for CPN, as well as many other opportunistic infections. For me, over time mHBOT worked for this and the myriad other co-infections I had.

My point was that when your immune system becomes stronger via mHBOT, it is better equipped to take care of the other infections, many of which we are exposed to every day, and usually only flourish due to a challenged immune system.

Again, I wouldn't try to talk anyone out of antibiotics, just wanted to mention that 5 months is not a very long trial for mHBOT, if someone has had chronic illness for some time.

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Digby
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Tom, Ditto to Phoiph's post.

Just keep in mind that mHBOT doesn't kill many bugs unless they are severely aerophobic. Borrelia Burgdorferi (BB) is classified as microaerophilic which means it uses small amounts of O2 but larger amounts can kill it when it's in the spirochete phase.

Unfortunately, in its other forms it is tolerant of higher levels of O2, plus it is hard to get the O2 into the connective tissue where BB likes to hide.

Knowing this led me to actively trying to kill the BB in my system but I just kept getting worse. I did 20 dives in a big chamber at 100% O2 and 2.5 atm and it nearly killed me. I didn't see any improvement even after the supposed herx was over. Of course I tried a lot of other ways to kill it, including abx, herbs, ozone, colloidal silver, etc.

So, why did the mHBOT work for me and a growing number of others? I am convinced that the hormetic effects of the Tx slowly improved my immune function and upregulated my detox pathways, which is why I can now breathe perfumes and drink a small amount of alcohol without getting sick too.

I have a client who has had a 30 year viral infection in her eyes which cleared after 8 months of daily chamber use. To me that suggests a major improvement in her immune function.

So, consider going with the program that has worked for many of us: 4.2 psi for 1 hour at pressure, daily, combined with a low carb/keto diet and exercise to tolerance.

Good luck!

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Oaktree
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HI All! This is my first post. I have really appreciated this thread, the information and in depth sharing, guidance and support that you all have offered over the years! I have read- and re-read at different points over past year as I been exploring treatment options and trying to heal. I will write more about what's been going on for me at another point in time but right now have a question about HBOT and chronic illness (maybe chronic lyme?).

I got a used summit to sea shallow dive that came with an 02 concentrator. (this 02 concntrator has been a confusing and complicated process, more of this later). The short is that I have done about 55 dives over 3 months . I am uncertain the 02 concentration due to variables associated with different sieve beds delivering different 02 at different times.

Recently it seems the the 02 has irritated my lungs during treatment ( I have dry cough after- this is new after sending into manufacturer for repair). So I am waiting for a new 02 hose to see if that is part of the problem.

02 would make me feel worse (herx) so I was working my way up slowly... 20mins, 30 mins, etc..

I have stopped using the concerntrator and am just doing 60 minute dives with room air. In the past, if I would do the dives without 02, I always felt better. More clear headed and more energized, less pain in body. Something has changed. I found that i appear to be herxing (increased brain fog, anxiety, difficulty concentrating, exe. functioning, communicating... etc) even with 60 minutes with no 02. I reduced to 35 minutes last night with no 02, and found that I still feel worse after and the next day.

This is new.

I am wondering if the 40 sessions and 30 days off makes sense for chronic illness rather than just TBI? I see the Digby said something about this, but I don't have the brain power right now to look through the 40 pages of posts to find it.

I have a lot more back story but the main questions are:

How can I make sense of this change... 30 minutes in chamber with no 02 and feeling worse after? (seems like Herx... does improve somewhat with Zeolite, or Alta seltzer gold).

Should I take a full 30 days off? I have taken a week off, and then 2 weeks off, and assumed that without 02 it wasn't really doing much. But not a full 30 days. I don't want to lose progress, but also need my body to keep up with apparent detox?

Would appreciate any guidance perspective or links to relevant posts!

[ 01-06-2019, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Oaktree ]

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kgg
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Welcome Oaktree! Not sure why no one has responded. Hopefully they pm'd you?

As far as diving without oxygen goes, we have a member on the FB group that dives without oxygen. She has reported much benefit without the payback.

I am not an expert. Some would say keep going. I a not one to put that to practice. When I am doing something that makes me feel worse, I take a break til I feel better and then start at a lower time. fwiw.

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Hominahomina
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Oaktree
My two cents are
Hbot causes alot of herx and after the herx the body filters out the dead matter

In my case all that (herx and recovery) takes energy and I can only do so much before I take a break

I am currently on a two week break until my energy builds back up

It might be compared to someone that trains as a runner they have a regular training schedule but sometimes they take a break from the routine.

I have not taken a 30 day break yet

[ 01-08-2019, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Hominahomina ]

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Oaktree
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HI, Hominahomina and kgg!
Thanks for the responses, I have not gotten any PM's yet... seems like this thread goes through active and more quiet periods. I am just amazed it has been going on for so many years.

I know that with TBI's and general consensus with HBOT is to do 40 then take 30 days off then another 40. And that is with o2. It does seem here on this thread that most people do daily... for years if possible?

I am surprised that I am getting the "push back" without 02, that that it has become something that used to make me feel better, to now feeling worse. I am taking a sometime off... and will re-evaluate again when I feel a bit better.

Your input is helpful!

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Peimomma
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Hello All,

I thought I’d pop in and give my 2 cents until Phoiph arrives probably in a few days when she has time to post. If I remember correctly her weekends and first of the week are busy. Anyway from my experience when I was consistently diving the O2 builds up in the body and I eventually (56 dives) hit the herx wall. Mine last 3-4 months and was varied in the degree of how badly I felt.

I continued to dive daily and did detox to help relieve the symptoms. Everyone is different and I didn’t want to rest, I had been out of work for 2 years, had no job except to lay around and feel bad with or without treatments.

As for what I’ve been up too the last several months. I moved back to WA for all of 60 days before the weather, commute (3.5 - 4 hrs a day), and new job learning social security administration was to draining. Oh and I’m 50 now. Anyway, I threw in the towel and moved back to AZ on Christmas Day 2018 and have been doing great again. I start work in a week or two.

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Phoiph
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Thanks, Peimomma...actually, I was spending some time in the southern Rockies..."unplugged" [Smile]

Oaktree~

It is not uncommon for people to have a "honeymoon" period when they start mHBOT. At some point, however, there is usually a flare of symptoms, and/or malaise, fatigue, etc. This phase will eventually turn into a 2 step forward, 1 step back pattern. The entire process may take many months to years, depending on the depth and degree of illness and toxicity.

if someone has ramped up slowly enough in the beginning, drank lots of water, consumed a clean, gut-healing diet and practiced gentle, regular graded movement exercises, this period may be pretty uncomfortable, but should not be unbearable. It is better to go slowly in the beginning, taking short breaks when needed, with the goal of building up to a consistent regime and then sticking to it.

If your flares are severe, then you may need to back off in the beginning, and work up more slowly. In general, work on increasing pressure first, then time, and finally 02 by increasing mask time (you can flow the 02 in the chamber without wearing the mask in the mean time). Evaluate how you're doing in between dives, and if your flares are too intense, you can skip a day or two during this ramp-up adjustment period.

IMO, consistency is very important in mHBOT for chroinic illness, especially in the beginning (after the gradual ramp-up period has been accomplished). The effects of mHBOT are cumulative, and it has been suggested that at least 80 treatments are necessary before the effects start to become permanent. For this reason, I wouldn't suggest taking a 30 day break early in treatment. I personally don't believe I would have become well if I had done this.

It may help to have more background on your situation.

Are you on, or have you been on a lot of meds, herbs, or supplements?

What kind of oxygen concentrator do you have, and what was the repair issue with your concentrator?
(Are you aware that you can use a humidifier bottle with some concentrators to counteract the dryness if necessary?)

What kind of diet and exercise/movement are you doing? I can't emphasize enough the importance of these 2 factors.

Are you doing concurrent therapies that may be interfering by making you detox too quickly?

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Oaktree
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Thank you all for your input and perspectives it seemed good to take a bit of time off and I am starting up again.


Phoiph, I am grateful for your input here, have been reading your responses to many other and want to thank you for your ongoing support for others. Unplugging in Southern Rocky’s sounds great! Hope it was a good break.

The strange thing is that I did a slow ramp up, and thought I was doing ok, then after about 50 or 55 dives, I now am having to go back down again.

I did a treatment for 30 minutes today with no 02 and after about 10 minutes in the chamber I begin to feel this heaviness in my head, a kind of deep fatigue. And after I feel spacey, worn out, irritable and foggy. Zeolite didn’t help very much today.

Background:

Tests:
Western Blot Bands Lyme has shown one or two at different points but never enough at once for “lyme diagnosis,”

Babsia, Bartonella Igenix negative.

Thyroid mildly low.
Low IGG
Slightly high homocysteine
SIBO negative
HPV6-IGG & IGM-high
EBV-IGG & IGM- high
Some other markers that ND’s say points to ongoing Viral and Bacterial infection.
They don’t understand what Herxing so much and not feeling better.

Current ND thinks that CIRS maybe in the picture. Our house (rental) tested just into the “red” for mold on the HERTSMI-2. Waiting to get some testing of C3a and c4a as well as other markers to determine if CIRS is a likely culprit for the difficulty detoxing and prolonged Herx. I certainly fit the symptom picture of CIRS (and chronic lyme, CFC, ect….)

Treatments in past: Have explored a lot of herbs and supplements over past several years.

Tried Byron White AL formula, for 3 months and it was way too strong! Felt horrible. very rough herx, A ND had me start with 25 drops for a week to “diagnose” me based on a Herx reaction. It was horrible very strong reaction, thought I was getting the flu. And I am not convinced that is a great way to diagnose someone… the herbs in AL are pretty broad spectrum antimicrobial… maybe I am wrong, but it didn’t convince me (although I very well may have lyme…many tick bites over childhood and into adult years probably 50+)

Tried Buhener, JKW, CC and CCC, as well as red sage and others-andographis was also very strong for me. Just was in a prolonged herx for months. Made life very difficult.

Have transitioned to Homeopathic (see below)

What I am currently taking:


Daily:
Homeopathic virus (1-3 drops 1-2x daily) & lyme nosode, (Lyme nosode “felt” like a very strong “yes” with my version of muscle testing. It continues to feel like an important remedy and sometimes when I take it I feel my whole nervous system relax. I take 2-5 drops 1-2x/day. Not sure if it causes herxing or not.) Homeopathic Allergy for Dust/Mold (amazing)ly helpful)

I am new to homeopathic remedies, have tried them over the years and never felt much benefit. But with this Professional Formulas Mold and Dust, it is amazing, how well it stops allergic reactions for me. So I am trying others more. I don't know if they are complicating or interfering and making me detox too much too fast. I think that when I started the Desbio Detox kit, may have been around the time that I started herxing more from mHBOT.

Zinc, quercetin, NAC, milk thistle, P5P, Desbio Detox homeopathic kit (Cebrebal, Spinal, Matrix, Detox 1, 2,&3).

For sleep: Melotonin, phenitrophic, magnesium, some homeopathics, Lemon balm, california wild poppy, passionflower, Two drops of Byron White AL— for some reason it helps sleep at times.

Intermittently:
COQ10, 5-htp, Maca, D-ribose, ashwagandha, L-Glutamine, D3 (one ND said I was converting it into an inflammatory version…?)


What helps:
Zeolite, alka seltzer gold, mHBOT without 02 used to help, some mild exercise, milk thistle, NAC, lemon water/apple cider vinegar, rest, time….stopping anti-microbials. Stopping MhBOT.


Diet:
I gave up corn, soy, oats, gluten and cow dairy for 2 years…. (have introduced some small amounts back at this point) and for 2017-2018 when I was taking antimicrobials I did not eat simple carbs, sugar, alcohol, dairy, gluten, beans, nightshades etc…. very clean simple diet and still did not feel better.
After eating I often get a lot of brain fog… SIBO negative.

Exercise:
I used to be very active, but over past 10 years, have become more sedentary and have more difficulty with sustained exercise. In winter with ice and snow and early darkness, I have been walking much less. I can get hard on myself for not exercising. I exercise when my body /energy is up for it, and allow myself not to when I am not feeling up for it.

Overall feel like I am a bit lost in the wilderness without too many maps. The "cures" all feel worse than the condition.

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kgg
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Oaktree, I just want to agree with you that having someone take 25 drops of Byron White herbals is not something I would do. I have read of people who take 1 drop of the Bart formula and herx for 3 weeks! I can't imagine 25 drops! I think I just read that Dr. Neil Nathan in his Toxic book does that. That would be a "NO WAY!" for me.

I have found over the years that sometimes there is a correlation between what I am doing and how I feel and sometimes not. But this is what you wrote: "I don't know if they are complicating or interfering and making me detox too much too fast. I think that when I started the Desbio Detox kit, may have been around the time that I started herxing more from mHBOT."

I believe it is thought that mHBO will increase in intensity meds and supplements. That is why many of us have to watch our Thyroid meds and decrease them over time while we are diving. If this was me, I would stop and see if there is any improvement. Just a thought.

The other thing I have found over the years is that both herbals and homeopathics are not weak. I have great respect for them. And therefore, I tread lightly with them.

You remind me of my 30-something son. Every cure makes him worse. Beyond frustrating.

FWIW, YMMV

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Oaktree
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KGG, thanks for resopnse and input.

In regards to the Byron White... yes super strong stuff... they did have me then start with 1 or two drops and work my way up, but at 4 drops I just kept herxing. I was not doing dives at that point.

That is interesting that mHBOT may increase effects of things Usually that stikes me as blocking detox pathways... like grapefruit intensifying meds because it blocks the detox pathways. I wonder what the effect is .... Or with Thyriod... I wonder if it is correcting the thyroid imbalance and so there are less meds needed?

In that spirit, of simplifying and trying to rule things out... I have decided to stop the Desbio detox kit (will keep feeling into the other homeopathics) and see where I am. I am not taking many other supplements (comparatively) at the moment.

I am currently doing a 15 minute dive without 02, and still feeling worse after... Will see how this goes for the week.

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Phoiph
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Oaktree~

mHBOT increases the body's ability to detox not only by opening up blocked pathways, but by facilitating nutrients into the cells, and toxins out of the cells.

Thyroid function can improve with mHBOT, necessitating less meds, so you have to be aware of those possible changes.

IMO, overall, you currently are on a lot of substances, even though it might not seem like it, and some of those are potent antioxidants and detoxifiers. There is no way to know how they are all interacting and affecting your system or interfering with mHBOT, but what you do know is that when you add mHBOT to the mix, you feel as if you have tipped the scale. It is all too much for your body to handle at this point.

I have always maintained that a simple protocol works best with mHBOT. If you truly want to focus on mHBOT, my best advice would be to consult with your naturopath, and slowly but systematically remove all non-essential supplements and remedies. Then start over with mHBOT on a slow ramp-up schedule as described in the above post.

Make sure you stay on your diet and do gentle exercise like yoga at this point. Maybe consider a rebounder (to move lymph) for when you can't get outside and walk.

Also, what is the history/status of your oxygen concentrator?

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