posted
Can anyone share any information about the background, training, practice, etc. of Dr. Byron White of the Byron White Formulas?
A friend is considering starting A-Bab and would feel more comfortable knowing more about its creator.
I've found background information on other herbal specialists like Buhner and Cowden, but so far nothing on Dr. White. Seems a bit odd to me. Hopefully someone can put me on the right track to find out more.
Thanks!
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joalo
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Up.
-------------------- Sick since January 1985. Misdiagnosed for 20 years. Tested CDC positive October 2005. Treating since April 2006. Posts: 3228 | From Somewhere west of the Mississippi | Registered: Aug 2007
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chiquita incognita
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posted
I have to ask what motivates this question?
Isn't it sufficient to know he is an ND? Doesn't that satisfy you? Why or why not?
Particularly, what motivates the question to ask where he practices, or did?
Why is posting names to the title of a thread suddenly accepted here?
lululymemom
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posted
It's true there isn't alot written about him on the internet. I did the research myself and found very little. My daughter and I both used his products and found them to be over hyped. Maybe they do work for some, but I have found less than enthusiastic reviews.
People are paying a ton of money for his products and I feel they have a right to know as well. It's a valid question in my opinion.
posted
Hi, I'd like to know about this too. I thought Byron White was only a brand name. Didn't realize there was a 'real person' behind this.
The supps are actually not a ton of money. One bottle will last you a very very long time and the stuff is potent. Hope someone can give us more information about the maker of this product.
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seekhelp
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i feel it's valid too when you have LLMDs pushing this stuff at $80+ a bottle making HUGE mark-ups.
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MariaA
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I know more about this as I went to the clinic where he developed the remedies and have seen a number of friends use them while they were in the 'testing phase'. I don't know why Byron no longer practices at the clinic. I don't have much faith in these remedies after trying them for an extended period and watching a number of my friends with Lyme try them.
Like Buhner, he's an herbalist (and like many LLMD's, I think Byron had Lyme himself, if I remember right). He's not an ND or MD, there's no reason to worry about his name. If you google his name you don't find him practicing anywhere.
I think it's perfectly legitimate to ask who this person is and how he came up with the process.
Here's what I know, and a heavy mix of my own opinion on this stuff:
my LLMD told me that Byron did a TON of papers-reading research and did a lot of work through translators in sourcing various Asian (and African?) herbs that weren't available in the US. My feeling is that in contrast, Buhner picked his protocol in much the same way BUT was trying to find a protocol that people in the USA could purchase most easily (meaning there are some other herbs that probably work better than the Buhner herbs but you can't just order them from an herb supplier in the USA, or they're rare, or not cultivated in sufficient quantity, or they hadn't been studied well, etc)
So far, so good. I'm not sure if the 'rare stuff that had to be ordered through great effort' was what made it into the final formula that we see for sale now, or what, but at least the process that Byron went through was good.
The problem for me is that he advertises that he uses some kinds of energy medicine principles and other unproven/unscientific process to concentrate the supposed properties of the herbs such that you can supposedly get better with very tiny quantities of the herbs (the formula calls for 15 drops at a time of what seems like a basic tincture).
I think I remember hearing that the guy himself uses some energy machine diagnostic techniques that I think are bunk.
I have a background in herbal medicine and to me it makes no sense that you could expect to get enough of the active ingredients of the herbs with just such tiny dosages. If you actually read the research that Buhner has based his own protocol on, you'll see that a LOT of it calls for high doses of the active herbs (like andrographis) and specifically calls for regular dosing because the body clears the active ingredients rapidly, for example, or for other reasons that we understand well. This stuff has actually all been tested- the studies on anti-spirochetal herbs often predate the development of antibiotics or took place in China or some other countries with an herbal medicine practice, so the principles on which they work are really clear to herbalists (and can be to laypeople as well). It makes no sense why Byron's remedies would magically work with such tiny dosages, other than that the placebo effect is at play.
I think that some of the reports of 'people getting much better' are due to placebo effect because from a scientific standpoint it makes no sense- there are very few herbs that work on such a small scale and most techniques that he could be using to boil down a tincture into a more concentrated form would destroy a fair amount of the compounds that might be the 'active ingredient' in some of these herbs.
I do have one friend who got somewhat better while on these herbs- but he's now been 'somewhat better with a lot of relapsing' for 3 years of the herbs, and the progress he's made from his relatively mild case of Lyme is very slow compared to just taking a round of antibiotics or compared to what I have seen Buhner Protocol folks experience in the same time frame (for comparison, I was much sicker and became completely symptom-free after 12 months of Buhner at the time. I have since been reinfected). His brainfog and ability to think straight and act rationally, and his memory, are horrible. I don't think this is permanent damage and he had no neurological symptoms, this is just undertreated Lyme and he's now starting antibiotics after 3 years of trying the herbs alone. I think the progress he's made is probably due to all the other interventions (adrenal, thyroid, lifestyle, cutting out sugar, getting regular sleep, etc) and not due to the herbs, but it's worth mentioning that out of some 5 people I know who've used this stuff, one seems to be a little bit better and hasn't used antibiotics.
Honestly, the stuff is 'sorta' cheap, but not that cheap! You can get a much more proven antimicrobial by going with either the Buhner protocol or by using the BLT/CryptoPlus line of herbs, which were developed by a naturopath and have dosing that is in more in line with what herbal research has to say on the matter.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
quote:Originally posted by chiquita incognita: I have to ask what motivates this question?
Isn't it sufficient to know he is an ND? Doesn't that satisfy you? Why or why not?
Particularly, what motivates the question to ask where he practices, or did?
Why is posting names to the title of a thread suddenly accepted here?
Moderators?
Chiquita, it does no good to address us in a thread, please click the "report post" icon below a questionable post to be sure we see it. We do not read the whole board.
Does he practice medicine? I always thought he was an herbalist. If he's an ND who treats Lyme, his name cannot be used on the board.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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seekhelp
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What really bothers me are the LLMDs are making such mark-ups. They all jump on the bandwagon too. I try to tell myself this is not why, but how do I know? It's easy to say a little of this or that won't hurt ya, but it sure helps their pocketbook. I'd love to see their sales agreements with the manufacturer!
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How do you know what the markup is on BWF? They cost me $80/bottle. I don't know what you consider a huge markup, but an $80 item of anything doesn't lend itself to a "huge" markup.
Can you state your source as to the wholesale price?
Or are you just assuming?
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sparkle7
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Yes, I think it's valid to question these products & how they were formulated. Thanks for your thorough reply MariaA. I was wondering about these products, myself.
I think there is alot of profiteering off of Lyme & related illnesses. It is important to be cautious & research everything. Just because people call themselves Naturopathic or Alternative doesn't make them necessarily ethical.
I've been to my share of what I would consider unethical practitioners on the allopathic & alternative side of things.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
"Yes, I think it's valid to question these products & how they were formulated."
I agree. But to accuse LLMD of making "huge" markups without knowledge of the wholesale price is just unfair.
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glm1111
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I am going to jump in here. The wholesale price is approx $45. I know this for a fact because a friend of mine who is a medical professional buys them for that price.
The markup is almost double. I agree with seekhelp in the fact that we are being taken advantage of.
Marking a product up some for going thru the trouble of handling it is understandable, but the high markup for people already struggling financially is just not cool.
BTW, you can buy Parastroy and some of the other antiparasitic herbs that have very similar ingredients for much less than $80.
The key to having any of these herbs work is to stay on them for an extended period of time until symptom free. Just my 2 cents.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
And what do you think the mark up is at the drugstore, the grocery store.
Have any of you ever run a business in your life?
Ever hear of overhead? Rent, payroll, payroll taxes, workers comp, electricty, phones, liability insurance, malpractice insurance, professional dues, internet? The list goes on and on...
I run a business and I work the first week of the month for the IRS. The second and part of the third go to overhead. I get what's left.
I think these doctors take on enough risk and deserve to make a profit. Highly educated, expiernced and dedicated. No one is going to do this for free.
Wow, a whole $35 a bottle. They're going to get rich on that.
For a Lyme board there's an awful lot of LLMD bashing here and it's getting really old.
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glm1111
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It's not just $35 a bottle. Usually people order 2 or more bottles a month, so that would be $70 plus other supplements that are taken.
PLUS the costs of the appointments which aren't cheap either. I used to end up spending easily $1,000 at any given office visit.
The doc I was seeing had 10 other people to see in the waiting room, and that's not including the 10 + he already saw. That could add up to about $20K a day.
I am not saying they shouldn't be well paid for all that you mentioned above, but, I know of people that have had to mortgage their homes to get treated.
It's just not a fair balance and I think that's what a lot of Lyme patients are feeling. I personaly went through my life savings trying to get well and was still sick after 5 yrs of tx.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
And what do you think your regular doctor gets paid per hour by your insurance company? About $1k an hour...
And it's the CDC/IDSA that have caused people to mortgage their homes, not the LLMD's.
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quote:Originally posted by stillwater: And what do you think the mark up is at the drugstore, the grocery store.
Have any of you ever run a business in your life?
Ever hear of overhead? Rent, payroll, payroll taxes, workers comp, electricty, phones, liability insurance, malpractice insurance, professional dues, internet? The list goes on and on...
- I agree. There HAS TO BE a markup. How do you think doctors feed their families and pay their employees and do all the other things stillwater listed above?
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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lululymemom
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I bought this in Canada and I paid $104 per bottle.. I don't think this amount is warranted. I bought 4 bottles that really didn't do a heck of a lot for me or my daughter.
Even on the Bio Resources website they say that the formulas are being sold for $89, so if you are paying less than that you are getting a better deal than what is being sold on the website.
I just want to hear of the cures they are talking about on their website.
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
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glm1111
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Most LLMDs do not accept insurance, so people are paying out of pocket. If you have ins., then the ins will pay for most of the visit for a regular doc.
The LLMDs are great for doing what they are doing and should be paid well. I think you are misunderstanding the point here.
The problem is that a lot of people with this disease can't work and therefore are having a difficult time paying such high costs.
Perhaps, they could give people a little break on the supplements and some of the costs, so they don't have to struggle trying to make ends meet.
Gael
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lululymemom
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100% markup is not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination.
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
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oxygenbabe
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Why should there be a markup on herbs, tinctures, etc? The doctor is not supposed to be running a store and making a profit that way. The doctor did not get an MD degree so they could sell supplements for double the cost they procure them at. If it's Gordon Medical Associates, I hear they earn $900/hour. They're already earning way over what a doctor should for whatever he does for an hour. So I think the criticism is valid (about cost). IMO they should not make money off supplements.
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sparkle7
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Hi O2babe! Nice to see you here again.
It's getting out of hand. Everyone has rising costs, expenses, taxes, etc. When does it end? In other countries, doctors go into medicine to heal people not drive expensive cars, take vacations paid for by big Pharma, or high malpractice insurance.
Yes, we all have rising expenses but there has to be an end to it otherwise we will end up having only very wealthy & very poor in this country.
I think $85-100 for a bottle of herbal extracts is a bit too high. I looked at a couple of the formulas. They seem good but I can't see why they are that expensive. The herbs, themselves, are not especially rare or difficult to find.
I think the money is going to research & development - if you know what I mean... I think we pay for the "creative" concept of these formulas not so much for the herbs, themselves. Sometimes, the simplest things gave me the best results in the end.
I'm going to have to agree with Gael. I've been through similar with doctors. In the end, it was my own research that provided the most effective treatment for me.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by oxygenbabe: The doctor is not supposed to be running a store and making a profit that way. The doctor did not get an MD degree so they could sell supplements for double the cost they procure them at.
This.
Posts: 340 | From san francisco, ca | Registered: Nov 2010
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check the copyright up top to see the Dr who created the Byron white formulas
my LLMD sells the formulas for 90 and thats about what you get them for online also. they are not making much on these products
the byron white herbals are 1:1 herb to alcohol ratio which is 4 times stronger than most of the competition which is 4:1 4 parts alcohol to 1 part herbs
do the math
Byron white formulas are the best herbals you can get I recommend ABAB or ABART but have not heard much feedback on AL complex
Paul
Posts: 925 | From Connecticut | Registered: Aug 2010
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check the copyright up top to see the Dr who created the Byron white formulas Paul
Wayne Anderson didn't create the formulas. Byron White did. It's just that if Byron sells them for $45 (if that's his wholesale price) explain to me why GMA should charge $85 or other docs charge $90? Because they went to medical school? They earn way too much already. That kind of markup is unconscionable. They should just Rx the formula and sell it for what it costs and maybe $5/bottle administrative costs (i.e. the cost of clicking on the web to order, or calling Byron White to order, and unpacking them onto a shelf when they come. Like all of ten minutes?)
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sparkle7
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If a group of people got together & ordered the whole herbs, they could make the tinctures themselves & divide it up. It would probably be something like $20 a bottle or less depending on how many people did it.
It's not that hard to make your own tincture. It's just not all that convenient for people to get organized, get together & do something.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
A bit off topic here with my reply, but not that much...
Do any of you recall a really helpful site called RemedyFind? It was a helpful web resource that ranked different remedies according to their efficacy -- rated by patients. You could search by condition or by product.
Just when they were gaining some critical mass, meaning many people voting on what was effective for their condition, they sold out to Revolution Health, which then destroyed a valuable community health resource.
I am starting a similar community database which would help all of us decide what effective remedies would be a for a given condition. I've been planning this for two years and I need your help. Pls PM me if you can help me rebuild this helpful resource which will (in the long term) help settle these kinds of price--product-efficacy complaints.
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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seekhelp
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I guess whatever people's beliefs I just simply can't afford those prices all the time. I'm certainly not saying by any means Walgreens, mail order pharmacies and other places aren't making an absolute bundle on generic drugs. The profits are incredible.
My problem is physicians profiting off the recommendations they make. It's a conflict of interest in my eyes. Walgreens does not tell me what to buy at all. i go there with a doc's script. Separate parties, separate decisions. I think $40 per bottle if true is a hefty mark-up for a 30 second sale! $35 blood draws is insane too at most LLMD offices when insurance pays $3-5. It's a 3 minute process.
Oncologists make sick profits off IV Abx. This is no better. If the fat isn't trimmed somewhere, the sick all go broke.
So many here just say everything is fine if you're a LLMD. I have standards for everyone. We all should. That doesn't make me a bad person. I've walked into some of these offices and I'll tell you they are really lavish. I'm spending my last dollars wondering where how our mortgage will be paid. Fair?
I don't own a business, but I do understand economics.I realize there is overhead, but I'd rather see the proper price established in the consult fee than biting off profits in supplements. It just looks terrible.
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glm1111
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I pay $12 a kit for Parastroy which includes 180 capsules and has many more antiparasitic herbs than ABab and ABart combined and includes a cleanse.
I usually order 2 kits a month for a total of $24. (I have no connection financially to this co)
There are several other antiparasitic herbals such as Humaworm and Hulda Clark you can purchase for around the same cost or a little more that people claim to have success with. More expensive doesn't always mean better.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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oxygenbabe
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I believe that, like Nutramedix, there is an energetic imprint in the herbs/tincture. Therefore, if you believe that makes the formula more powerful (and I personally have seen much evidence for homeopathy working so I think it's possible) then there is a reason for the tincture to cost more than the herbs themselves. In addition it may be a synergistic formula based on research. That's not my beef. It's a doctor doubling the price, with clear conflict of interest, "prescribing" it. Since the maker is not practicing medicine and can't "prescribe" it the doctor uses his privilege to earn extra money when he's already filthy rich and patients are taking out second mortgages to pay doctor bills...sorry, it's unconscionable in my book.
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sparkle7
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I'm "herxing" from some food grade diatomateous earth. It was about $10 for a 12 oz. bag.
I don't think herxing is a good indiction of how expensive something should be. No offense to you, Paul... I've spent alot on money on various things. More expensive doesn't always mean better.
If you bought bulk artemesia & made a tincture out of it - it might make you herx just as much depending on your personal medical issues.
O2babe - I don't know if energetic imprinting should make something drastically more expensive. I have had some benefit from energetic medicine but to imprint something doesn't seem to be difficult or labor intensive. I could be mistaken...
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MariaA
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Paul, I think you're misunderstanding what 1:1 means. It's totally common in tincture-making. Most tinctures are done at either a 1:1 or a 1:2 ratio, depending on the plant- meaning, raising the amount of plant material doesn't necessarily raise the concentration of the final product. There's no 'competition that makes theirs 1/4 weaker'. It makes no sense that tinctures should have much efficacy at 1-15 drops on something as systemic, deep-seated, and hidden in hard-to-get-at places as Lyme Disease bacteria. I think the placebo effect (compounded by how much you're paying for it) is at play.
Some herbs are tinctured at a 1:2 because in effect, the alcohol becomes 'saturated' and can't take on any more herb material. So what people ave sometimes tried, which I think might be what he's doing here based on how much resin drops out of his tinctures, is to heat the formula to try and drive off some of the alcohol to concentrate the tincture afterwards.
Most techniques that have tried to concentrate tinctures for one reason or another have been shown to destroy things like polysaccharides that are part of the active ingredient of the plant.
There's a lot of complex science to manipulating a herbal tincture beyond the basic 'tincturing' (definitions: tincturing means soaking chopped fresh or dried plant material in alcohol or alcohol/water mixture or glycerine to extract the soluble active ingredients). When the Chinese formula makers do it, they use vacuum distillation and various vacuum-based drying methods so as to prevent high-temperature destruction of active constituents. I don't think Byron was doing this, it requires a factory worth of expensive gear.
If you'd like to learn a lot more about how these things work, I recommend the podcasts and writings of the founder of the Herb Pharm line of tinctures, whose business has a gas chromatograph and who therefore knows what he's making and what the different tincture-handling techniques actually do to the finished product (I'm sure Byron doesn't have access to one, they cost about $40,000) and has extensively studied (and talked/written about) just what happens when you use various methods to shortcut the traditional tincturing techniques or to otherwise manipulate plant material when making medicine. It all makes perfect sense from a herbalist and chemist standpoint, whereas whatever Byron is claiming to do makes no sense.
Maria (who has worked in a chemistry lab at one point, and studied this tincture-concentrating issue as well in various places)
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
posted
there is a reason 90 percent of the LLMD's out there are using this stuff
and its not so they can make a 30 dollar profit on the bottle
Paul
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seekhelp
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Paul, I did try A-Babs, but couldn't take it due to an allergic reaction. It was the most expensive 3 drops I ever bought. Now of course that could happen with any pharmaceutical as well. I don't blame that part.
Why do you not believe $30 profit+ per bottle is not an incentive for 90% of LLMDs to recommend it? When you walk into a bank, what do staff usually do? Ask you if you have accounts elsewhere or see if they can get you to buy other products, etc. It's called leveraging revenue sources.
Not all may do this, but to say it isn't a motive would be foolish IMO. All it takes is one big dog LLMD to start the trend and it's possible other LLMDs may jump on board simply thinking it must be the best thing since sliced bread if that other doc orders it for all his/her patients.
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llmd's could put anything they want in an unmarked bottle that cost them 2 dollars and sell it for 90
why would they all be using the Byron White Stuff
they could make much more telling you something else would help you
Paul
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seekhelp
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That would be HORRIBLY unethical Paul. lol.
quote:Originally posted by Paul Mall:
llmd's could put anything they want in an unmarked bottle that cost them 2 dollars and sell it for 90
Paul
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glm1111
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Paul,
It's great if these herbs have helped you. Where do you get your statistics that 90% of LLMDs are using these products?
If that's true, then at $30 a bottle and if a patient buys 2 bottles ($60 profit) and you times that by even 5 patients a day, that would mean that the profit could be around $300.
Not a bad incentive for them to want to sell these herbs.
Also just want to add that when I took Hulda Clarks tinctures, I became very light headed and dizzy from one drop of the alcohol in the tincture.
I guess I could have mistaken it for a herx, but it was clear to me it was from the alcohol, which she states could happen.
Gael
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Lymeorsomething
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This is a good, feisty thread...
I have to agree that one drop of a herbal remedy is unlikely to cause a herx.
I'm using the Cowden protocol currently. I had to work up to the 30 drops samento/banderol before I herxed pretty hard.
-------------------- "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong." Posts: 2062 | From CT | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I have friends on ABART who cant get past 4 drops because of the herx
Posts: 925 | From Connecticut | Registered: Aug 2010
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glm1111
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Quote "People herxing from one drop should be an indicator in my book"
Paul.
That is what YOU stated in reference as to how strong these herbs are in your opinion. Don't these herbs contain alcohol?
Maybe your friends are getting a "buzz" from the alcohol and not really herxing at all.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I'd just like to say I started off on 1 drop per day, 2 times per day, and sometimes even skipping a day, and I've managed to land myself in the ER this week.
Everyone is different. You can't say some people don't get better on these without mentioning the many people that are helped by these herbs.
Also, if we are basing this whole $45 per bottle on one person's source, that's ridiculous. My doctor told me how much she pays for these and its not far off from $80. Could prices have gone up since this person's source got this information? Could my doctor be lying to me? maybe. But according to my last bill I got the following for $112:
My doc charges $150 per office visit (1 hour), not unreasonable. especially considering she advises me free of charge throughout times like this week where I've been in quite a pickle.
If you think you are getting ripped off by your LLMD, maybe you should consider switching to someone else.
As far as A-BABS being effective...I don't know WHAT ON EARTH ElSE could have caused my severe fever, chills, head pain, and lung pain this week. I was tested with blood tests, swabbed, CT Scan and Chest Xrays. All is "Normal"
This is a clear indicator that the babs treatment is doing "something" and it's worth a shot to try. if it doesn't work for you...then you know it doesn't work for *you*.
posted
And Gael, you're awesome, but not everything can be solved with Parastroy or parasite treatment. Just my personal opinion. My LLND states that she has had great results with the use of this treatment, she also stated that she likes to use products that she knows has worked, especially with all the quackery being sold to lyme patients out there.
I've never had a problem with reacting to alcohol in tinctures. and if i really wanted to, i could handle a glass of wine if sipped extremely slowly with a meal. I just choose not to do that to my liver because of what it's going through right now. my herx is definitely not from the alcohol in the tincture.
glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
FYRECRACKER,
FYI, A babs and A bart are antiparasitic herbs that are similar and some the same as what's in Parastroy and other antiparasitic herbs.
As far as the wholesale price of $45 goes, this is as of 2 weeks ago. Hardly think the price is different from one medical practioner to another.
I don't have a problem as to the efficacy of these herbs, just the high cost and high profit being made from people who are struggling already financially.
No, antiparasitics can't solve everything, but they sure have saved my life along with salt/c. I post a lot about it because so many are not getting well with abx alone.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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MariaA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9128
posted
Guys, babesia and Lyme are cyclical illnesses in many people. How in the world do you (this applies to any treatment) know that whatever you're having is a herx and not just a flare-up? I know that I couldn't tell when I was on known and well-studied anti-babesia drugs (that eventually got rid of my babesia)- there were times that even though I took the drugs very regularly I would sometimes have a one day-or-three-day flare-up out of the blue and get worse- it wasn't in response to my medication, since that wasn't changing.
Also, before I treated Lyme or knew I had it, and at the beginning of my chronic illness, I periodically went into remission without any treatment and then got worse and would get flare-ups and get sicker, all without any rhyme or reason (eventually I just stayed sick and got worse and worse till someone figured out I had Lyme and clued me in). Again, I wasn't taking anything- it's just something that Lyme and co are known to do in some people.
So, if you're someone with this sort of pattern to your illness, how in the world do you think your getting worse is 'herxing' rather than just 'getting worse at random'?
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
I would find that comical, but when I was sick, I'd have a very slight buzz off of receiving the wine at communion .... in fact, when it would happen, I DID find it comical!!
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
My herx symptoms are nothing like my flares
my main herx symptoms are "Brain Fog , Severe Fatigue (Need to sleep after being up for just a couple hours) , muscle twitching"
I never had Brain Fog or Fatigue before treatment only when I herx
when I flare it's usually in the Form of chest pain (pericarditis), sternum pain , rib cage pain , and nerve pain down the length of left arm , left leg and side of neck.
vision floaters are a constant
I will post the data I am gathering later this evening for those who are interested in looking at it.
Paul
Posts: 925 | From Connecticut | Registered: Aug 2010
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Herx shmerx. Are you feeling better?
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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lululymemom
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Member # 26405
posted
Yes, that is the question.. herxing should have some positive outcome.. If not, then it's not really doing anything beneficial. I felt I was herxing at 10 drops of A-Bart but after a few months, I really wasn't any better than when I started.
I am also one of the biggest proponents of herbal therapies here.. If I found this to be curative, I would be willing to pay $1000 nevermind $100.. So far I have only heard of one person that felt this put them into remission and I have been on several different sites looking for this confirmation.
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
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glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
Actually, I am going to defend the strong herxes some of these antiparasiticals can produce including A babs and A bart.
I started taking herbs in Nov 2005 (Monastery Of Herbs) and I have herxed severly from all of the herbs I took.
For me the proof was in the dieoff of parasites that came out of me in the toilet.(It took 6 mos to start seeing results. The KEY is staying on them and not just taking them for a month or 2.
Antiparasitics also have antibacterial and antifungal properties. I did have better results with the encapsulated herbs than the tinctures.
So, no herxing by itself was not the proof I needed it was the dieoff that I ultimately witnessed.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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Paul
Posts: 925 | From Connecticut | Registered: Aug 2010
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
I've always heard Monastery of Herbs is good...
Paul, I'm a lot better than I was in a moldy apt in NYC!!!! Still a ways to go but my approach tends to be to remove inflammatory triggers from the immune system, support it with nutritional/glutathione etc IV therapy, hyperbaric etc, and basically try to assist it back to homeostasis where it can deal with borrelia on its own. At least to the extent that's possible. Gael did well with salt/c and 4 days of it practically did me in, took 8 months to recover somewhat, and still have severe MCS from it, don't know why. Therefore I'm wary for my body of any strong drugs or herbs or anything but supportive therapies. I found that camping in wilderness works really well!! If you wonder why, you have to think about why so many people are sick, and examine all the toxic impacts of modern life.
For example, your FB wall talks about your insomnia. There were days/nights in NY when the combination of noise, stress and reactions to molds...I'd sleep half an hour a night for 3 or 4 nights.
In wilderness, I can sleep deeply 8-10 hours...that's very healing. See Sundog Tales blog from Lisa Paussman for posts on the same.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I "herxed" from 1 drop of Nutramedix cumanda. The enula also made me herx...
I later realized I must have a parasite issue. To me a herx means increased pain. Enula gave me diarrhea. I think both of these things relates to parasites. Cumanda & enula are anti-parasite herbs as well as for other issues.
Herxing can also be from candida or an allergic reaction. It's really hard to pinpoint that these symptoms actually mean we are killing a pathogen.
I did the Nutramedix protocol faithfully for about 6-9 months. I went through ups & downs. It wasn't a cure. We don't really know if these herbs are cures unless we have some kind of clinical study with parameters.
A few people posting that they feel better is not enough. I'm glad I was on a program & got the Nutramedix herbs for free. I don't think these tinctures are enough on their own but everyone may have their own experience. We are all different.
The placebo effect is quite strong. If it's what's causing these things to work - than that's OK. I think these herb tinctures are too expensive, though - based on my experience with the Cowden protocol which is similar in ways.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
We asked 7 Abab users and 10 Abart users how many drops before they herxed (Completing the Challenge Phase)
here are the findings.
Abart 1-3 Drops (40 percent) Abart 4-7 Drops (30 Percent) Abart no herx (20 Percent) Abart less than one drop (10 Percent)
Abab 4-7 drops (42 percent) Abab 1-3 drops (28 Percent) Abab less than one drop (28 Percent)
Paul
Posts: 925 | From Connecticut | Registered: Aug 2010
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
I think you have to see how these people feel in about 6 months to a year from now & even longer. Having a herx doesn't mean that they will get well.
With herbs, it generally takes a bit longer to see results. 17 people is not really a big enough study sample. I'm not an expert at developing studies but it doesn't seem to be enough data to tell for sure whether these products are effective over the long haul.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
this was pretty much to show the people who think im just making this stuff up that I actually have reasons for what I say sometimes
but not all the time
Paul
Posts: 925 | From Connecticut | Registered: Aug 2010
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sparkle7
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posted
We all try to do the best we can. No one is blaming anyone. It's just that many people have spent good money on stuff that seems promising to find out it was useless in the long haul.
Studies can be tainted by interests - that's for sure. It's just that testimonials can be wrong, the placebo effect, misleading, or down right propaganda to tout products. It goes both ways.
Sometimes, it just takes some patience to see if a given product is going to really pan out. Whenever some new, big star product comes out - I will usually wait at least 6 months to a year to see the reactions.
From what I have observed, the BW herbs are having mixed results. Doesn't seem like a "cure". The Cowden herbs were touted in the same manner. History seems to be repeating itself.
Just my observations.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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sparkle7
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posted
Also - we all want to "believe" we are doing the right thing, correct protocol. We want to believe that we will get well from all the time, effort, research, authority figure advice, etc. we are doing.
Sometimes this belief is misleading & skews the actual effect of the treatment. It does take time to see if these things are really effective or not. If someone takes a product or drug & has a good day, they may say the product or drug is wonderful & effective. We don't know if the same holds true for 6 months from now.
People want to believe that they are on the right track & that what they are doing is a cure. It's just that it doesn't always work that way - unfortunately.
It sort of reminds me of the tv show The X-files... "I want to believe." Sometimes, it really may be a UFO but sometimes it's just an airplane.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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glm1111
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posted
Very well said sparkle. You always seem to have just the right words to sort out difficult situations.
Wishing everyone healing from this horrific disease not matter what path you chose as long as it works.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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TF
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Member # 14183
posted
If Byron White still has lyme disease, what does that say about his herbs?
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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My opinion is that the herbs can be useful as maintenance once whatever Lyme/co's/metals issue has been stamped down. Again, just my opinion and experience.
As we all know Lyme,co's/metals issues will be different for each individual.
I have tried A-Bart and AL. I like them and definitely herxed. Was able to sustain 18 drops each, twice a day. Do I think they are overpriced? Yes but also effective....
Posts: 31 | From NY | Registered: Jul 2005
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
All I'm saying is...doctors shouldn't make the profit, using their MD degree to Rx and double the price on something; the ND who created them should set the price.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful feedback and helpful information. MariaA and MichaelTampa, your posts were just what I was looking for, I really appreciate them. I am glad this question turned into such a vibrant discussion!
Best wishes to all on the journey back to health.
-------------------- BetterInPortland Posts: 13 | From Portland, OR, NW US | Registered: Feb 2008
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canefan17
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Member # 22149
posted
There's nothing special about BWs formulas imo.
Just some potent herbs that, in many cases, are better taken in powder form than tincture. I was able to take 30 drops 2/day of both A-Bart and A-Babs.
Buhners protocol got me to 95% as long as I stayed strict on the herbs.
Ultimately I'm not sure herbs are enough for Lyme + Cos
But we all have to figure that out on our own.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
Good comment TF "If Byron White still has lyme disease, what does that say about his herbs? "
I find it hard to swallow taking and paying for something that I know nothing of and can't find any info on. The abab does not have artimesia in it yet I think the abart does. That's kind of funny. I just would like to find some data on this np.
These are so new and unproven yet. No track record . Who knows what kind of side effects or allergic reaction one might expect. I doubt the dr.s know either. With BW unable to be found to answer any issues or questions is not good in my book either. Did he fall off the face of the earth or is he vacationing somewhere with all of our money. I think it is wrong to be used for first line of treatment. I agree for maintenance. You need to stick with tried and true.
I don't want to be experimented on.
Oxygenbabe, Perfect scenerio for dr.s treat with herbs...make money for appt. make money from herbs stay under the radar for not dishing abx out.
Posts: 433 | From new york | Registered: Dec 2004
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
I'm no fan of these herbs or unproven stuff, but this line is kind of ironic:
"I don't want to be experimented on."
Well, time to stop treating Lyme/coinfections then because that's all LLMDs do every day in and out..experimenting. There are NO real/perfect documented treatments for an illness that doesn't exist!!!
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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