Brussels
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I just changed the title from 'Does herpes cause lyme disease?' to 'Does herpes cause lyme disease symptoms?' -------------------------------------
I read Anthony's book called Medical Medium, Chronic Illnesses and how to heal about 2 years ago or so.
It sounded so strange that I just forgot about it.
Recently I took it again to read, and am starting to use more and more of his suggestions for my lingering symptoms (small tinnitus, shoulder pain that comes and goes, lower back pain that is almost not there but still comes back, my skin infection that I call candida but I think now it's viral, some fatigue that comes and goes....).
He also likes liposomal Vitamin C, and discusses about all sorts of diseases such as mold ilnnesses, CFS, MS, fibromyalgia, neuro lyme, multiple chemical sensitivity, multiple allergies, diabetes type 1 and 2, autism, brain diseases, ADD, heavy metals etc.
I sincerely never had seen anyone speak of SO MANY health conditions the way he does (more than dr K even).
I'm studying his books almost word by word again, trying to see the big picture of chronic disease, and for the first time I started on his heavy metal smoothie, that I swear, goes VERY DEEP in the brain, joints, organs, bones, ...
But the smoothie cleans not like a hammer, like most protocols / products I took in the past.
he said the smoothie is safe even for children (as it is basically food - wild blueberry, cilantro, spirulina, barley grass, banana, dulse), even safe for babies.
Whatever it is, it is going deep in my body, I feel every corner of it, specially the brain. Little pains here and there, still bearable if I continue taking the smoothie.
When I was first ill with lyme about 14 years ago, it sounded strange to me that my disease was infectious. Low chronic infections. It's still something hard for people to understand this is possible.
Now, Anthony is proposing the same theory, that we are all poisoned by pesticides, fungicides, heavy metals, and that we need EXTRA treatment to stop chronic INFECTIONS.
Yes, he also believes that there are infections behind almost ALL chronic illnesses, as well as poisons (chemical poisons) and that is why we need to eat anti oxidant foods and detoxing.
So he does think like the lyme community, that tries to convince the rest of the world that the biggest problem of chronic illnesses is infectious.
the only difference is that he says it's NOT Borrelia behind our illnesses, but herpes family viruses.
He said that in the turn of the 20th century, this specific group of viruses appeared or developed, and lurked inside our great grandparents bodies.
It was slow, but certain. And that these viruses feed on HEAVY METALS, chemical pollutants, milk, gluten, eggs.
As these chemicals and foods are what we mostly eat DAILY, and that we are all getting chronically ill (to a less or greater extent, varying from person to person), well, I start to think the guy has a good point in his arguments.
For those who had never seen a tick in their lives, what he says may be of interest.
I fell ill after a tick bite, but not only. I took antibiotics for my EM rash.
He says viruses FEED on antibiotics, they LOVE antibiotics.
I had ZEROlyme symptoms when I was bitten (except for the skin rash, that is common here among people who work in the forest).
Lyme symptoms came ONLY AFTER I took antibiotics.
If lyme has a viral component (like some LLMDS start to believe), well, it is maybe worth to read what Anthony William is saying about it.
Keebler
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- Q: "Does herpes cause lyme disease?"
No. Absolutely not. He is dead wrong about this.
Herpes does not, cannot, will not ever cause lyme disease. Lyme is a specific kind of bacteria.
A virus cannot ever, will not ever simply create a bacteria.
A friend loaned me this book (or one about thyroid where he claims all this) that you mention. I read over what he said and he is dead wrong about this.
Where he may have a point is that in some with lyme, they also have EBV or other strains of herpes. But nearly every human alive carries these. Still, when they are active, action is important but that is not the question you ask.
No, herpes cannot cause lyme. Ever.
It should come as no surprise to anyone who has studied lyme for a while - or encountered it - that there are other, even multiple other chronic stealth infections that can also be damaging - that are often on board and very often EBV or HHV-6 as just about every LLMD will remind us at every ILADS conference.
They remind us, too, that all must be considered both in diagnosis and treatment plans.
If what he's trying to say is that don't assume it's all lyme & that symptoms can overlap - but that is not what he says.
His claim that - oh, it's really NOT lyme, after all but - a virus
can cause lyme is ignorant, preposterous and potentially very dangerous to those who might believe this whether those with lyme / TBD / chronic stealth infections --
or friends and family who are often not educated in the science of all this and all too ready to believe this garbage he claims and discount that loved ones with lyme really do have a serious infection.
He basically asserts that those diagnosed with lyme, well, that lyme is really no big deal at all. Yikes!
His thoughts / feelings / "intuition" on this ignore all the science & seriousness - and yes, danger - of Borrelia burgdorferi. -
[ 01-01-2019, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Keebler
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- Q: "Does herpes cause lyme disease?"
Again, no. Let's look to the science.
For anyone new to lyme, here are a few basics about the science of Borrelia burdorferi (Bb), a gram-negative spirochete bacteria (that has other forms as well).
Regarding the toxicity, the biochemistry, the microbiology and all that, a starter set:
Biochemistry of Lyme Disease: Borrelia burgdorferi Spirochete/Cyst
by Prof. Robert W. Bradford and Henry W. Allen
Townsend Letter - February / March 2006
Excerpt:
Lyme Disease Toxin
Because many of the symptoms of Lyme disease involve the nervous system, it was speculated that the spirochete produced a toxin that disrupted normal nerve function.
Through the use of DNA manipulations and a database of known protein toxin DNA sequences, a match was made with a selected Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb) gene and a specific toxin in the database.
Protein generated from this cloned Bb gene was examined biochemically and found to have characteristics similar to that of botulinum, the toxin of Clostridium botulinum, a zinc endoproteinase.1
The Biology of Lyme Disease: An Expert's Perspective
26 minute YouTube video - Jul 20, 2013
This is a 30 minute video with Dr. Alan MacDonald, a retired M.D. and board certified in Anatomic Pathology and Clinical Pathology. This revealing interview from May 2013 (1 of 3) covers many of the controversies associated with Lyme disease: -
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Brussels
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Keebler, of course I know we all think lyme is caused by Borrelia b.
But we all know how often people with lyme have viral infections.
"Additionally, suppression of immune function by these microbes can allow reactivation of dormant viruses.
There are eight known herpes-type viruses that can infect humans.
A common feature all of these viruses share is the ability to lie dormant in nerve tissue and reemerge later when immune system function is compromised.
The three most common viruses are Epstein-Barr virus (EBV), the cause of mononucleosis, Cytomegalovirus (CMV), a common viral infection that can cause heart failure and Human herpesvirus type 6 (HHV-6), a virus very commonly found in active form in chronic fatigue patients. The list also includes Herpes simplex type 1 (fever blisters), Herpes simplex type 2 (genital ulcers), and Varicella zoster virus (chickenpox and shingles).
Because stealth microbes (borrelia and coinfections) are so difficult to diagnose, sometimes it must be assumed that they are there. You cannot rely on lab tests alone; symptoms are often a better guide than lab testing.
Not surprisingly, chronic Lyme disease shares many symptoms with other fatigue-like conditions including fibromyalgia and autoimmune diseases. Lyme disease is also commonly associated with multiple sclerosis, Parkinson’s, rheumatoid arthritis, dementia, and ALS.
The possibility that all of these conditions are associated with stealth microbes is extremely high. Which disease happens is dependent on the combination of microbes, the status of the patient’s immune system, and the patient’s genetic makeup.
When you understand Lyme disease, you begin to understand the underlying nature of all chronic disease processes." ------------
Do you see the problem of finding viral infections, underlying and reactivating with lyme?
You can think Borrelia reactivated the viral infection.
or you can think that you had a viral infection, and Borrelia got reactivated with it.
Herpes viruses, as Dr. Rawls says, is LIKE BORRELIA: it goes undetected by blood tests, it can cause LOW GRADE INFLAMMATION, it weakens your immune system....
... exactly like Borrelia.
The question is: who was there BEFORE: Borrelia caused herpes to awaken?
or the exact OPPOSITE: herpes (undetected) caused Borrelia to awaken?
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Brussels
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False positive for lyme with patients with Herpes zoster:
Brussels
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This is what Envita has to say about HHV-6 virus and lyme:
-----------------------------
"HHV-6 is one of the infections found invirtually ALL CHRONIC LYME disease patients, a chief contributor to fatigue and other neurological symptoms. "
Antibiotics do not affect this or other herpetic viruses.
Viruses have been implicated in the development of neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and Multiple Sclerosis (MS.)
More specifically, neurotropic virus HHV-6 has been clinically shown to be directly linked to many neurologic problems including encephalitis, mesial temporal lobe epilepsy and many others.
Despite copious research, HHV-6's route into the central nervous system remains inconclusive.
However, among various brain regions examined, the highest frequency of HHV-6 DNA was routinely identified in the olfactory bulb/tract region.
While further tests must be conducted, the olfactory pathway does seem likely as at least one pathway for HHV-6 to move into the CNS."
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Keebler
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- The point is that the statement is wrong by the first author you list. In his book on thyroid, he emphatically states that lyme is no big deal and it's really caused by EBV.
That is the question of this thread. That question alone.
To dance around and toss in some things he says that do make sense it is not good science - it's kind of gas lighting, in a way, to sell his book. When he has things that are wrong mixed in with things that are not - that is very dangerous.
From there on, he complicates with other points that all the true LLMD authors have discussed for decades - for decades.
He tosses in a salad bar of nutrition advice, some good, some bad (such as avoiding eggs because they "feed" EBV -- well, they feed us, too, and unless someone has an allergy or clear other reason to avoid, eggs provide low cost excellent nutrition).
Back to the question: Can a virus cause lyme? No.
Anything else this guy might say / claim / wonder should not be taken just upon his word as it's shown he is ignorant on the topic of lyme. Period.
There are so many other real medical and research authors whose work stands up to the science and nutrition. His does not. -
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Envita says HHV-6 is a coinfection of lyme: -------------------------
HHV-6 Viral Coinfection of Chronic Lyme Disease - Immunity and Cancer Implications
"The more research-based evidence that is produced, the more it seems that additional regulatory influences in cell proliferation can be altered definitively by viral infections.
HHV-6 is a common perpetrator for such significant and impactful changes.
Our clinical experience in testing chronic Lyme disease patients shows many have activated forms of coinfection viruses such as HHV-6. That means that many Lyme sufferers are likely carriers of this infection, as well as others. Biofilm communities and immunodeficiencies could make HHV-6 and other virus actively replicate.
We employ only the most advanced diagnostic tools to test for a variety of infections like HHV-6 and examine whether it is a causative factor for other maladies, such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
We utilize the most effective therapies from around the world to modulate and boost immune function in patients suffering with HHV-6 or those who are immunocompromised and at risk of contracting it."
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Keebler
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- Yes, there are many co-infections with lyme.
That is not the point. That was not the question. That is not the lie this author drops when he claims lyme is caused by a virus. -
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Look, there are very many PEOPLE with lyme disease coinfected with herpes family viruses: CYTOMEEGALOVIRUS, HHV6, Hepes simplex, EBV...
EBV is so high on the list: it looses just for Babesia and chlamydia!!!
about 30 % of lyme disease patients test positive for EBV, while bartonella (one of the MOST KNOWN COINFECTIONS) is only 20%!
Only Chlamydia is really more (about 34%) and babesia is just around 31%.
If you add all lyme patients with herpes FAMILY infections, the number goes skyrocketing (add Cytomegalovirus, + Herpes HHV6 + Herpes simplex 1 or 2 + EBV) the numbers will overcome all other lyme coinfections.
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If both infections, the viral one(s) AND Borrelia are both hard to diagnose (with blood tests), who can really tell what came first:
- the viral infection(s) that ALL chronic lyme patients seem to suffer
- or the bacterial infection?
We ASSUME Borrelia has many coinfections, right?
But people with CFS are covered with many coinfections too, right?
The main ones are usually viruses, the secondary ones are bacterial (that is what is believed, at least, that's what people that got mononucleosis /EBV are told).
Now here's lyme, causing CFS, and lyme patients covered with bacterial AND viral infections.
What came first (if all these chronic infections are hard to diagnose)?
Or what is mostly damaging the immune system, causing the avalanche of deep chronic disease?
Is it really Borrelia like we all believe it is?
If you got CFS, doctors will say you got viral infections as a main problem and all the rest is secondary.
If you got lyme, it is believed bacterial infections are primary, and viral infections secondary.
Well, IF viruses are the MAIN cause of 'lyme' symptoms, and bacterial infections are a consequence, well, the whole treatment using antibiotics is a failure from start.
Even if viruses are not the main cause of lyme, but ALL lyme patients are covered with several viral infections (stealth infections as much as Borrelia is stealth), the treatment with antibacterial approaches will probably fail.
When we call a VIRAL STEALTH INFECTION a 'coinfection', we have the feeling it is less important.
How the heck a STEALTH INFECTION can be less important???!
We are MADE BELIEVE that these viruses are just a consequence, EVEN THOUGH in the literature, they are considered as STEALTH INFECTIONS the same way as Borrelia is considered.
Just think about that.
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I'm just posting this for people to think.
Don't just go and jump on chemical antivirals, because that is one of the worst treatment you'll be doing (in my opinion, in dr Rau's opinion).
A virus is almost like a protein that floats in your body, and taking antivirals (in chemical forms) will not distinguish between your own proteins (your cells, your hormones, your enzymes etc) and the viral proteins.
Forget about chemical antivirals, they mostly do only harm.
I'm just posting this because that is what making my brain busy at the moment.
I read Anthony's book long ago and discarded it as it sounded crap.
Just now, I'm reading it again, and things start to make more sense (knowing how much ALL CHRONIC LYME PATIENTS are PLAGUED with viruses).
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Keebler
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- Again, not the point that, indeed, those with chronic lyme are "plagued" with viruses.
Not the point.
The thread asks: "Does herpes cause lyme disease?"
[There are many other threads / articles / books / websites that discuss the various ways symptoms of various viral, bacterial, protozoal infecftons can overlap and confuse the matter. That is not what is asked of this thread.]
The question of this thread asks whether this author (Anthony) is correct point in his repeated claims that
a virus, specifically EBV, CAUSES lyme. It does not.
Therefore, his erroneous equation disqualifies him from holding any place in medical / patient "education" because he gets this major point about science all wrong.
He stands on that lie, at least in his book on thyroid that I scoured for all such references where has blatant errors.
There are so many other real, reputable LL authors / teachers / doctors (including Rawls) who have a full grasp of all the science about lyme and other infections that -- go with (not cause) - lyme.
Some might have varying views on how to approach lyme or any of the coinfections or aspects / factors but they are strong on the science.
There is no debate that symptoms can overlap. The debate - and where this author( Anthony) looses & fails is his strong assertion that a virus is / causes lyme, itself. It is not; it does not.
That he clings to this cancels out anything else he says as one cannot trust whether what he says is true or not when something like this is so very wrong and ignores science. And that is a danger.
To build on this thread with "side" discussion is similar to "gas lighting" as if that one main point does not matter is also dangerous in that it gives the author (Anthony) a degree of credibility that his work does not deserve. -
[ 01-01-2019, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Keebler
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- For those new to all this and interested in learning more about lyme as well as other infections to consider, understand, assess & address, there are many links here by reputable sources:
Diagnosing Lyme Disease (&/or whatever else is going on)
SEE the WESTERN BLOT EXPLANATION links here regarding lyme.
Other tick-borne infections and other chronic stealth infections discussed, too [such as: mycoplasma pneumonia, chlamydia pneumonia, EBV, HHV-6 and other herpes viruses and enterovirus, etc.] -
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Bartenderbonnie
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I think the question Brussels and author's Anthony and Rawls are struggling with is whether the herpes family viruses causes seropositive Lyme patients to become symptomatic.
That is. . . there are documented seropositive Lyme carriers that show no symptoms what so ever. The infection remains dormant. While rare, it is acknowledged.
It is estimated that up to 90% of the population has been exposed to some sort of the herpes viruses. Are the non-symptomatic Lyme carriers free of these viruses? Does the added burden of these viruses cause the non-symptomatic Lyme carriers to become symptomatic ?
One can not deny the correlation. More research should be done on the seropositive non-symptomatic Lyme carrier to find answers to these questions. Thoughts ?
P.S. There are also seropositive HIV patients that are non-symptomatic and never develop AIDS.
Immune system disfunction and disruption need to be restored. Unfortunately we are in the infancy stage so thinking outside of the box may provide relief to the millions of sufferers worldwide. Nothing is off the table. Keep searching for answers.
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Keebler
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- Any infection, any stress can trigger latent stealth infections to become active. Lack of good sleep, liver stress, chemical exposure -- there are many variables that can trigger latent chronic stealth infections to become active.
Speculation about what he * might * have meant offers him more credibility than he deserves for he is not big on scientific evidence to back up his theory..
In the thyroid book of his I read, Anthony just flat out says, paraphrased: lyme is not lyme at all that makes people sick, it's EBV. That lyme is no big deal, basically.
This is the gist of what he stated repeatedly in his thyroid book. So much so that it turned around a good friend mine who now questions if I ever really was bothered at all from lyme - could have been mono, she says. She's the one who loaned me her book.
Now, Antony may well say some other things that are not so wrong, some things that, in fact, make sense. But three true statements cannot erase / cancel out - or as he would like: make correct a statement that is not. That is not a reliable, reputable source.
We don't suggest that anyone see such a doctor who totally discounts lyme but, hey, he'll treat you for EBV instead.
No, we put great emphasis on the experience and whether a doctor is truly a lyme literate doctor - and also knows about all the other infections and aspects, too. One that can manage all that is in the mix and not ignore major players.
We should do the the same when we suggest authors who may well have to be a substitute for a LLMD for those who cannot afford.
LL? Not that author. Not at all.
If we are to learn from trusted sources, there are many highly experienced authors in links below who understand lyme / TBD and also understand all the variables that might trigger a latent infection to rise up . . . and how / when to address the various coinfections / immune / hormonal aspects.
Diagnosing Lyme Disease (&/or whatever else is going on) -
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Brussels
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I still don't agree fully with Keebler.
Yes, the definition of lyme is basically, a disease that is caused by Borrelia. We all know that.
The point is: if virtually ALL lyme patients are INFECTED with Herpes viruses, and as far as I know, ticks and insects do not transmit herpes...
well, the question is: - what if ONLY people infected with herpes develop lyme (in case a tick infected with Borrelia bites them)?
IF all chronic lyme patients have ACTIVE herpes viruses infections, and herpes are NOT transmitted by ticks, there is a high probability that HERPES was probably in the patient BEFORE he got bitten by a tick.
What if HAVING herpes is not a pre-condition to get lyme disease?
I mean, both diseases are not easily screened in blood exams, right?
We ASSUME herpes viruses 'wake up' in the presence of Borrelia. Ok, that may be true.
But what if it was not the opposite: that the fact that being a chronic herpes infected person makes the pre condition to fall ill with Borrelia?
We all know that Borrelia alone is NOT the factor that causes lyme disease - because many people are infected and do not fall ill with lyme.
And also because Borrelia plagues humanity since the start (as it is a VERY old bacteria).
Or people like myself, once had lyme, and now does not have lyme anymore - DESPITE the presence of Borrelia.
It is not Borrelia that causes lyme ALONE. There are preconditions for lyme to develop.
What if the precondition is not simply having some sort of chronic herpes infection?
If all chronic lyme patients have active herpes, what is the problem with that reasoning?
Just because the guy I'm speaking of is not a scholar, it does not make him wrong.
I know he looks 'simple', 'popular', he's not a scholar (I did not mean he were), he did not make any study to say that, as he says, he's simply a medium.
He simply talks what he listens. Like Edgar Cayce in the past.
I'm not saying 'believe the guy because he says he's a magic medium'. But I'm simply raising a question here.
I'm simply asking some of you to make a MENTAL exercise. To raise a hypothesis.
No one will change the definition lyme = caused by Borrelia.
What I'm asking you to do is a bit deeper: what are the preconditions of anyone to fall ill with lyme?
No one will deny that lyme is just one name, and that CFS, MS, ALS, brain degenerative diseases, joint diseases etc are all RELATED.
It's not just 'one disease with one name'. EBV and Herpes zoster must also be included in the lyme symptom cluster as they produce the same type of symptoms, anyway.
WHY do HERPES family viruses plague ALL CHRONIC LYME PATIENTS?
If both are stealth infections, causing several symptoms (EBV and lyme cause very SIMILAR DISEASES), why do we assume herpes is the COINFECTION of Borrelia?
What if it is not the opposite? I mean, why does that sound so bad if we only SUPPOSE herpes viruses are the precondition, and Borrelia is the coinfection?
It's just a mental exercise! Nothing more.
The question about the relation between herpes and the development of lyme is though open, in my opinion.
Herpes could cause lyme in the sense that it could be the PRECONDITION to develop lyme disease.
I mean, I'm talking about POSSIBILITIES, just hypotheses. Until proven contrary.
Why are these herpes viruses SO PREVALENT in a lyme patient? Much more than tick born co-infections?
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We in the lyme community are the most knowledgeable to know that we can live YEARS, DECADES with low grade chronic infections.
Low grade but ACTIVE chronic infections.
No other community knows about that.
Borrelia can make little damage, be very LOW PROFILE, barely creating symptoms, until there is a collapse and the immune system looses its hang on its job, and lyme develops.
We all know how hard it is to screen Borrelia and many of tick born infections.
We look like mad people trying to prove that to others that have no single clue about the nature of chronic infections.
Knowing all that, why would be VERY DIFFERENT with chronic herpes infections?
Why can't chronic herpes develops, lurks, cause low grade infections, mining the immune system for years, decades, until a collapse happens and disease develops?
I don't see why does that look strange!
We know severe lyme 'develops' for several reasons (you need a sort of 'click' to turn lyme on): a vaccine, death or trauma in the family, a surgery, even teeth treatment can 'cause' lyme to awaken.
Why is it so hard to imagine that the SAME happens to chronic herpes??
It stays undetected, mining our immune system until SOMETHING happens and it wakes up.
What if this SOMETHING was not a tick bite, infected with Borrelia?
This is important to consider because an anti viral treatment is not like an antibacterial treatment.
Despite all these intelligent scholars, researchers, bright doctors, decades of research, lyme treatment has changed, improved, but lyme disease still is winning.
I don't know if you think different.
What I see is that we are still on the losers' side.
Look at Scott from betterhealthguy. He's seen the best specialists, he's done the best treatments, but he's still sick with lyme disease (still on lyme treatment).
He's been treating INTENSELY with the best specialists for about 15 years, at least (that I know).
If a guy like him who listens to all these lyme conferences, and has the means to see the best lyme specialists of the planet (as he also travels abroad for treatment), and is still sick with lyme, what I'm asking here is just a mental exercise.
What if the whole scientific community has been missing an important link the whole way?
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Forget about what the Medical Medium said.
Go back to the basic question:
Why are herpes family viruses so prevalent in chronic lyme patients (MORE than any known tick born coinfections)?
We assume viruses awaken due to a weakened immune system due to Borrelia.
Same for some cancers: doctors assumed some viruses profited from a faulty immune system and woke up, that is why so many cancer patients had viruses, candida etc.
Only recently, researchers INVERTED the paradigm: what if some viruses CAUSED cancer?
And it seems some cancers ARE also caused by some viruses, right?
It's just that: what if herpes family viruses were not a consequence, but a cause for falling ill with Borrelia?
We know how tick born coinfections profit from synergy (Borrelia helps Babesia, Bart, Mycoplasma, ehrlichia, to thrive and vice versa).
We also know that candida and Borrelia walk hand in hand: they proliferate in the exact toxic environments, that is why candida is also a lyme coinfection.
The VERY FACT that ticks have so many pathogens infecting us makes HEALING from lyme MUCH more difficult.
If only Borrelia were present, our immune system would probably have little trouble getting rid of it.
This cooperation of different pathogens to weaken the immune system is at the very CORE of the lyme problem.
What the hell are herpes viruses - that are NOT transmitted by ticks - doing in virtually ALL chronic lyme patients?
Today, herpes viruses are considered lyme coinfections! So they are considered as part of the lyme soup already.
So somehow, herpes profit from Borrelia and vice versa (that is why they are considered co-factors).
We know that candida, strep, staph should also be considered coinfections because so many lyme patients suffer from them too.
In this complex soup of pathogens, researchers have decided that Borrelia is the master mind, and all other pathogens are simply co-factors.
This is just a definition, not a proof.
We all know that attacking Borrelia will only rarely cure lyme disease.
We were told that we need to kill all tick born coinfections first, to then be able to address Borrelia.
As the list of coinfections just get LONGER, and coinfections are not anymore only tick-born, but viruses, parasites, strep, staph, candida, mold etc...
I mean, what if to cure lyme we have to go first after viruses?
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I had herpes first - it's a viral infection. When acyclovir came on the market, it stopped the herpes.
Lyme came from a known tickbite. I don't think there's any connection between the two.
People can have and do have all kinds of other infections. I think we can evaluate whether the immune system nay be affected by them. In my case, no. The herpes was treated long before the onset of the bacterial infection.
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This is the current view on the relation of lyme and herpes: (by dr Rawls)
"Suppression of immune function by these microbes can allow reactivation of dormant viruses.
There are eight known herpes-type viruses that can infect humans.
A common feature all of these viruses share is the ability to lie dormant in nerve tissue and reemerge later when immune system function is compromised.
The three most common viruses are Epstein-Barr virus (EBV), the cause of mononucleosis, Cytomegalovirus (CMV), a common viral infection that can cause heart failure and Human herpesvirus type 6 (HHV-6), a virus very commonly found in active form in chronic fatigue patients.
The list also includes Herpes simplex type 1 (fever blisters), Herpes simplex type 2 (genital ulcers), and Varicella zoster virus (chickenpox and shingles).
Because stealth microbes (borrelia and coinfections) are so difficult to diagnose, sometimes it must be assumed that they are there.
You cannot rely on lab tests alone; symptoms are often a better guide than lab testing.
Not surprisingly, chronic Lyme disease shares many symptoms with other fatigue-like conditions including fibromyalgia and autoimmune diseases.
Lyme disease is also commonly associated with multiple sclerosis, Parkinson’s, rheumatoid arthritis, dementia, and ALS.
The possibility that all of these conditions are associated with stealth microbes is extremely high.
Which disease happens is dependent on the combination of microbes, the status of the patient’s immune system, and the patient’s genetic makeup."
Brussels: this is what we ALL (lyme community) BELIEVE to be true.
Brussels
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What EBV is:
"Epstein-Barr is the virus that causes mononucleosis and is part of the herpes family.
Even if you weren’t teased in school for coming down with “the kissing disease,” you were very likely infected with it, since 95% of U.S. adults have picked it up by age 40, and it can be present WITHOUT ANY SYMPTOMS.
Epstein-Barr has been linked to both Hashimoto’s and Graves’ disease.
It has also been linked to other autoimmune diseases, most notably multiple sclerosis and lupus, but also chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, and Sjögren’s."
Brussels: And I add here EBV is now linked to lyme (as a coinfection of lyme).
------------------------ What HERPES does:
The whole herpes family is believed to be linked to autoimmune disease, but the herpes simplex type 1 and type 2 viruses (the ones that cause oral and genital herpes) have been studied most thoroughly in relation to autoimmunity.
Like the rest of the viruses in the herpes family, the SIMPLEX VIRUSES REMAIN IN YOUR BODY FOR LIFE ONCE YOU'VE BEEN INFECTED. "
BRUSSELS: Does that look strange? No, like Borrelia, probably bartonella, candida, etc, these pathogens remain the host FOREVER without necessarily causing symptoms.
"They’re not always active, but when they are it is theorized that they can trigger an autoimmune response in your thyroid via the hijacking effect or bystander activation.
Stress can actually trigger the viruses’ transition from latent to active because your stress hormones suppress your immune system and viruses have evolved to activate in response to them."
Brussels: I don't know if you all agree, but if you change the name EBV for Borrelia, and Herpes viruses to Borrelia in the text above, it fits exactly to lyme disease (that is also 'creating' auto immunity).
Do you picture the point? 95% of 40 year old adults have EBV FOREVER, til they die (even if they are not symptomatic).
Now you add herpes simplex 1 and 2, herpes zoster, cytomegalie etc, all of them are STEALTH PATHOGENS, creating low grade symptoms (or fully active), and HARD TO DIAGNOSE.
EXACTLY like Borrelia, bartonella, babesia etc.
--------------------------- Is there a chance that someone who is 40 is NOT infected with any herpes viruses?
I think the answer is NO. We are all part of this herpes soup.
How does one know one does NOT 'have' EBV anymore? By inconclusive blood tests?
Dr Rawls considers lyme as stealth, but herpes viruses, EBV etc are ALSO stealth pathogens, hard to diagnose, difficult to treat. (he speaks of EBV as stealth in another article).
Once infected with herpes viruses, you get infected for life. Like Borrelia.
We assume that herpes is gone, because we become symptom free. Like we assume Borrelia is gone when we become symptom free.
The actual pathogens are still present, but under control by our immune systems.
------------------------------ We assume we get thyroid problems because of borrelia.
We assume to become auto-immune due to borrelia.
We assume herpes are re-activated due to Borrelia.
We assume our nerve symptoms, fatigue, brain fog, fibromyalgia are caused by Borrelia and tick born infections.
Well, we assume a lot of things, but if you read about what symptoms can be attributed to herpes family viruses in conjunction, you'll see that they do not lag behind tick born infections.
Previous studies suggested that the overall burden of prior infections contributes to cardiovascular diseases and stroke. In the present study, the association between infectious burden (IB) and Alzheimer’s disease (AD) was examined. Methods
Antibody titers to common infectious pathogens including cytomegalovirus (CMV), herpes simplex virus type 1 (HSV-1), Borrelia burgdorferi, Chlamydophila pneumoniae and Helicobacter pylori were measured by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay in 128 AD patients and 135 healthy controls. IB was defined as a composite serological measure of exposure to these common pathogens. Results
Seropositivities toward zero−two, three and four−five of these pathogens were found in 44%, 40% and 16% of healthy controls but in 20%, 44% and 36% of AD patients, respectively. IB, bacterial burden and viral burden were independently associated with AD after adjusting for age, gender, education, APOE genotype and various comorbidities. Mini-Mental State Examination scores were negatively correlated with IB in all cases. Serum beta-amyloid protein (Aβ) levels (i.e. Aβ40, Aβ42 and total Aβ) and inflammatory cytokines (i.e. interferon-γ, tumor necrosis factor α, interleukin-1β and interleukin-6) in individuals exposed to four−five infectious pathogens were significantly higher than those exposed to zero−two or three pathogens. Conclusions
Infectious Burden consisting of CMV, HSV-1, B. burgdorferi, C. pneumoniae and H. pylori is associated with Alzheimer's Disease. This study supports the role of infection/inflammation in the etiopathogenesis of Alzeimer's Disease.
----------------------------
Brussels: In this study, 2 of the pathogens present in Alzheimer patients are from the herpes family.
2 of the pathogens are tick born infections.
One is H Pylori.
We assume this all happens due to Borrelia (the rest are coinfections).
How can we say that, if both herpes and tick born pathogens are both stealth, extremely immuno SUPPRESSIVE, both difficult to diagnose, both creating low grade infections with barely any symptoms, and both remaining in the body forever??
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This article from Dr Cole, talking about viruses causing BRAIN problems, autoimmune and thyroid problems (all of these problems are number 1 in lyme symptoms lists)
"Viral infections can range from the common cold to HIV and hepatitis.
Viruses are oftentimes the underlying missing link to triggering many health conditions.
I am not talking about acute viral infections like the flu (influenza virus) although it could be the case.
What I am speaking about are CHRONIC VIRAL INFECTIONS.
Long standing infections that wreak havoc on your health MONTHS or YEARS LATER in life.
The viral infections that I see most are actually part of the same family: The HERPES family.
When most people hear the word herpes they think of the sexually transmitted disease (STD) or cold sores.
There are actually eight identified members of the human herpes virus family so far, though many in the integrative health world consider there to be more varieties.
This is also the group of viruses that cause chickenpox and shingles! Herpes is one rough family.
The four members of the herpes family that I see being an underlying trigger with seemingly UNRELATED HEALTH PROBLEMS are:
ALMOST ALL OF US HAVE ONE OR MORE OF THESE VIRUSES in our bodies, so the variable is not IF we have it, but WILL IT BE TRIGGERED and when?
The name herpes comes from the Greek word ‘herpein’ or ‘to creep’ and that’s exactly what these viral infections do.
They can stay DORMANT for years until an opportunity to strike occurs.
A stressful time in your life, leaky gut syndrome, candida overgrowth, adrenal fatigue, OR LYME DISEASE can all be the perfect time for the sleeping, latent viral infection to rise up, reactivate, and wreak havoc throughout your body."
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Brussels
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Here are the 'symptoms' / diseases of herpes family that Dr Cole lists.
Brain Problems
1. Depression and anxiety
Depression and anxiety are two of the top disabilities worldwide.
Multiple studies including one in 2014 found an association between anxiety and depression with CMV, although we still don’t understand exactly the mechanism of how it does so.
Similar studies have linked EBV with forms of anxiety such as panic attacks and attachment disorders.
The virus is also implicated in LYME disease.
2. Chronic fatigue
Epstein-Barr is the cause of “Mono” (mononucleosis) which causes extreme exhaustion, but it doesn’t stop there.
More than one million Americans have Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS).
These viruses have also been implicated in this debilitating condition.
(Brussels: Who has chronic lyme without CFS?)
Autoimmune Conditions
1. Autoimmune thyroid problems
The most common cause of low thyroid dysfunction in the west is autoimmune reactivity against the thyroid.
The most common is Hashimoto’s disease or autoimmune thyroiditis. Hashimoto’s disease or autoimmune thyroiditis.
Hashimoto’s is also the most common autoimmune disease in the world.
One 2015 study hypothesized that latent EBV hides in the thyroid tissue, and once reactivated, stimulates the immune system to attack the thyroid.
(Brussels: how many of us with lyme disease suffer from Hashimoto?)
2. Systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE)
A Journal of Clinical Rheumatology study found that CMV was a possible trigger for Lupus.
3. Inflammatory Bowel Disorders (IBD)
A study out of the Scandinavian Journal of Gastroenterology actually found that the higher the level of HHV-6 and CMV that was found, the higher the severity of Inflammatory Bowel Disorders such as ulcerative colitis and Crohn’s disease.
(Brussels: again, IBS, colitis, Crohn's disease are all symptoms of lyme or connected to lyme disease)
4. Multiple Sclerosis (MS)
This neurological autoimmune disease affects 2.5 million people worldwide, and millions more have unexplained neurological autoimmune reactivity.
EBV is clearly seen in the medical literature as a potential trigger to MS.
According to the Journal of Infectious Diseases, a shingles outbreak can nearly quadruple the risk of MS!
(Brussels: if EBV is seen as a trigger of MS, so is Borrelia, as we all think in the lyme community).
5. Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS)
Another neurological autoimmune disease is Guillain-Barré.
A Clinical Infectious Diseases study found CMV triggering GBS although the other herpes viruses have also been implicated.
Underlying Herpes zoster (shingles) can also be the culprit for other cases of unexplained nerve pain (neuropathy).
(Brussels: neuropathy is also another super common lyme symptom, here attributed to herpes zoster).
6. Alzheimer’s disease (AD)
Researchers have also looked at the viral connection with yet another autoimmune-inflammatory neurological disease, Alzheimer’s.
They found an increased risk of Alzheimer’s disease with CMV.
(Brussels: I don't have to say about this one, as we know that the literature points also to Borrelia as a cofactor in Alzheimer disease).
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HHV6 is known to be with all of us since we are babies, and are linked to myocarditis.
Not only HHV6, but Borrelia, bart, babesia etc are also linked to myocarditis:
"Human herpes 6 virus is relatively new virus just recognized in the past decade.
It is generally acquired at an early age (less than 1 month of age in some cases)5.
About 20% of infant visits to the emergency department for fever may be due to HHV-6.
Like other Herpes Viruses, most people are infected chronically and it is a virus most people have been exposed to by the age of 13 months.
After the initial infection, it lies dormant in the salivary glands and bone marrow for the lifetime of the person.
The virus is shed in the saliva and symptoms include rash and fever.
In children, the disease roseola infantum, also known as 6th disease, has been associated with HHV-6 infection.
Hepatitis and encephalitis has also been associated.
Multiple sclerosis, chronic fatigues syndrome, fibromyalgia, and myocarditis have been associated with HHV-6 infection."
posted
Well, in deference to the title of the thread, Lyme disease is caused by Bb.
But I think what Brussels is suggesting is that sustained Lyme symptoms would necessitate a herpes virus involvement. I apologize if I am misrepresenting that. But if I have it right, then, okay, maybe so. Sounds plausible. Worth researching even.
Lots of plausible theories out there, though. Holds true for MS and ME/CFS and Alzheimers and...That list runs on and on. Implicated as causes or triggers of one or more of the latter three are enteroviruses, herpes family, endogenous and exogenous retroviruses, adenoviruses, Bb, bartonella, etc - and that doesn't even touch on autoimmune components.
Before I ever get my hopes up too high, certainly in light of the many theories, one acxiom I try not to lose sight of is that correlation does not equal causation until proven as such.
I also try to remember that the simplest solution may be the right solution. In this case, that would suggest that sustained Lyme symptoms, with or without treatment, would seem to imply sustained Bb infection.
This would be somewhat different if you were trying to evaluate something like CFS - which is very different than chronic fatigue - because here you have a cluster of symptoms with unknown etiology, so that whole list of viral causes is entertained to one degree or another.
But we know what causes acute Lyme, and I do not know that anyone suggests that Herpes is a prerequisite to acute Lyme in not just humans, but other animals such as, say, dogs.
Maybe so, though. I wish we had the $'s to look into it, but they are busy being funneled pretty much solely into early diagnostics to feed that $500 Million industry.
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steve1906
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The fundamental question being poised here is what is ultimately causing Lyme patients' symptoms.
It is identical to the same question that haunts ME/CFS boards. There it remains a fascinating and persistent and currently unresolved question.
So you have bacteria, you have viruses, you have retroviruses, you have autoimmune agents, you have immune dysregulation, you have parasites, you have channelopathies, you have fungi - any one of which, or some in tandem, can cause the cluster of symptoms you are investigating.
So why pick one over another? More to the point, if it is not Lyme causing symptoms, but rather reactivated herpes, or a latent enterovirus or whatever, then shouldn't the name of what is behind the cluster of symptoms be that herpes virus and not Lyme?
Ultimately what I have seen over many years is that each of these causal agents has merits, and may indeed be the culprit behind some of these clusters of symptoms in some subsets.
It just seems to me this may be a convoluted step when the disease is identifiable - at least as far as many of our bodies' immune systems are concerned. If you have Bb antibodies, your body at least is attacking what it believes is an invasive agent, and all those associated cytokines and chemokines etc that stem from that targeted immune response are capable in and by themselves of explaining Lyme symptoms.
But I'd love to see more research on the subject for sure. It's potentially an interesting quandary, at least for some of us.
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Keebler
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- For decades, most of the ILADS LLMD and LL NDs have included all that is discussed above. Most of the articles, books, lectures, etc. at ILADS conferences and the like also cover a very wide range not just of coinfections but also other variables / aspects to consider.
Coinfections may or may not be limited to just tick-borne - but whatever a particular patient might be dealing with, in addition to lyme.
Mycoplasma, Cpn, and various herpes strains have been addressed at many ILADS conferences, in many LL books, too.
Stanford University Medical in a special program has used an antiviral Rx (starts with a "V" I think - and it has shown promise for "CFS" populations).
Likely there is no "real" LLMD or LL ND who ever addresses just lyme. It's common for a newcomer patient to hear "lyme is never just lyme" for a good reason.
On the other hand, likely no "real" LLMD or LL ND (or even the top LL herbalists such as Buhner)
ever advises or decides to just ignore lyme just because its complexity is, well, complex or puzzling - or even treat just one form of it with just one approach, either. For good reason.
Every good (and "proper" ) LL doctor has a basic approach that has been shown in all the ILADS teaching conferences for decades:
Consider the science, keep up, keep learning about all factors so to - in treatment
- consider - and address - the specifics of each infection alone and how they interact . . .
consider all other factors (including diet, environment, habits) fully head-on for as long as is required;
cover all the bases.
Often rotation is involved in what tops the list of treatment focus yet, all factors remain in mind. That's ideal yet maybe not all LL doctors can do it all.
As for MDs addressing viruses, some do with Rx. Yet, there are dozens of herbs that may be appropriate, too - and Buhner's book on viruses is a great place to start understanding how they work and what we might do.
Ultimately, addressing immune issues matters a lot when dealing with all this as viruses are tricky.
If one has a LL ND nearby, also a worth connecting. ND have more tools against viruses than in the typical Rx pharmacy.
Also RIFE therapy seems a logical place to address viruses, too.
Infectious Disease Research Chronic Infectious Diseases
Prof. Garth L. Nicolson - emphasis on mycoplasma infections w/ other excellent articles listed at end. He has been a presenter at ILADS conferences through the years.
Cpn (Chlamydia pneumonia) is another chronic stealth infection to consider for those with lyme &/or neurological issues. Many with MS, while often lyme may be the cause, also find that Cpn can be a key factor as well. -
[ 01-05-2019, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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A quick sidebar if that is okay, and my apologies to Brussels and other who have posted on this thread.
I am always appreciative of the depth of knowledge members like Keebler and Tincup bring to bear on the TBD travesty.
So, Keebler, yes, Stanford is doing neat stuff relative to ME/CFS. Not sure if you're talking about Valtrex or something else.
But Stanford vis-a-vis ME/CFS has done important work under Ron Davis. He has been assisted, in part, by Mark Davis - of Bay Lyme Group fame.
What I personally find interesting is that what they are finding in ME/CFS patients is very often irregularities in RBC formation.
Strike a cord in anyone?
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Keebler
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- duncan, yes, Valtrex is the anti-viral Rx I was thinking of. Some also may use Valcyte. Thanks for the many important details. Good to know who's doing that work.
And, the RBC formation issues, Babesia can really clobber RBC and so can mycoplasma infections. Much more to learn about all that.
Years before I was diagnosed with lyme + other infections a routine test showed my RBC to be "odd shaped + sized" - the test was repeated with same results but my GP at the time just waved it away as testing errors.
Other reg. MDs to follow would never allow me to repeat the test for size + shape of RBC. One even said, "oh, they don't do that kind of test."
A dark-field test so alarmed the doctor who did that his voice upset when he asked: "WHERE have you BEEN?" and suggested enzymes that he sold to fix that problem.
[note: Wobenzyme was very helpful for the 2 months I could afford it. And Zhang's protocol helped me address babesia as least as well as I could for a time.]
and, an acupuncturiest who happened to have a microscope did a slide of my blood one day - just for his own curiosity and I literally saw RBC just popping all over the place - just disappearing - on the slide.
Again, when I showed some concern, I was dismissed as being unreasonable.
Maybe there should have been some sort of agent used on the slide as a preservative but, still, he never mentioned that - just made me feel like a hypochondriac and not willing to be successful at his advice to "think yourself well"
Later, the Babesia dx helped make some sense of it but, again, no way that any MD in my circle would prescribe treatment even for that.
The deep fatigue (that RBC issues are likely partly repsonsble for) that the folks in California are exploring -- well, I'll have to go read up on their current work. I lost touch with that years ago.
RBC are fascinating, just fascinating. Thanks, again. -
[ 01-05-2019, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Brussels
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Steve, could you copy paste that blog? I could not get the page to open (I'm in Europe, that may be the reason?)
Thank you
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Thanks for the smart comments.
Duncan, I guess the name of 'lyme' disease leaves us wonder about what kind of disease we actually have.
Here in Germanic language countries, we call it Borreliosis.
I like the name better than 'lyme disease', because Borreliosis looks what it is: active Borrelia.
Lyme disease today is NOT Borrelial infections, but includes all tick born infections in the picture, the so called 'lyme disease', of which one component is Borrelia.
Wikipedia says there are 16 known tick born pathogens infecting humans, but it counts only one of each type, like one Babesia, one Bartonella, etc.
It does not count the several types of Borrelia separately (12 out of 52 are known to cause lyme), or several types of Bartonella (a fast google search shows me 24 species), just one babesiosis etc...
Besides all these tick born pathogens (if my memory is good there must be around 100 different species known to infect humans in ticks), we still have in the same lyme cluster:
- parasitism, viral infections and we consider lyme disease to be at the center of MS, ALS, for example, so neuro diseases.
Then parallel to that, we know that virtually all lyme patients will end up with some or all of these conditions:
- auto immune diseases of all sorts; - multiple chemical sensitivities
- candida infections (virtually anyone with long term lyme will suffer with)
- fungal infections - mold diseases
- thyroid disorders - adrenal disorders
- tinnitus - heart conditions
- sexual hormone imbalances, sterility... - any hormonal imbalances
- sleep disorders - anxiety disorders
- liver problems (high enzymes...) - UTIs are seen too often
- active viral infections are seen virtually in anyone - personality changes
- neuropathy - encephalitis, meningitis,
- arthritis, RA ...etc etc
Suppose we bring the most known list of symptoms, problems, conditions that are attributed to lyme disease - only the 50 or 100 MOST COMMON PROBLEMS attributed to lyme disease...
... it won't be much different to picture shown in herpes family diseases!
I wonder if they will be ANY different.
Don't you guys find is strange to be suffering from same symptoms attributed to another cluster of pathogens (this time viral), be told that viruses are difficult to diagnose,...
... difficult to treat (as they are stealth), that they can be present without causing major symptoms for years, decades, until a collapse strikes?
Wait a minute: I heard this story before!
Yes, that is what strikes: herpes family viruses causes symptoms that look much like lyme disease, almost to the letter!!!
Brussels
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Before I believed what I was told: lyme is caused by Borrelia, but we can't fight Borrelia first, only at last.
It doesn't work to attack Borrelia first (we all know that after experience, trial and errors..). I mean, because we believe this to be true (that Borrelia is the cause of our symptoms / disease).
First, we need to go after the coinfections, we were told.
The reason?
Of course, these coinfections act synergistic with Borrelia to protect each other, that is why.
Well, in the past, they usually found only 1 or 2 more pathogens active in lyme patients.
Then it suddenly increased to more.
Now it's pretty normal to have 4, 5 tick born coinfections. Or even more.
But it does not stop there.
The LIST of cofactors / coinfections got ONLY LONGER.
Who denies today that candida has nothing to do with lyme? Or viral infections ? Or parasites? Or mold? Or other fungal infections?
Almost no one will be able to deny that many of ALL known pathogens and parasites may have to do with lyme.
We were told that who is behind all that is Borrelia.
And that to fight Borrelia, we need FIRST to get rid of the rest.
Even if doctors, researchers keep adding more to the rest list - wasn't it enough to have dozens of tick born pathogens?
Today, it's getting difficult to find the end of the list of cofactors, coinfections, in my opinion.
And not only that: it is getting difficult to know to which cluster of diseases you fall inside, because all these diseases look like the same, with different names...
Doesn't that feel like a bad excuse for unsuccessful treatments?!
Or doesn't that look like in fact, no one knows what disease we actually suffer?
1st: how do we know it is actually Borrelia behind the scenes, if all lyme patients seem to have steath immuno suppressive infections such as herpes family viruses too?!
2nd : why do we have to keep believing that we first have to get rid of everything else THAN the main cause of the disease - which is Borrelia? - to get rid of Borreliosis??
3rd: Borrelia cannot be the sole cause of lyme, because we all have Borrelia inside (once infected, always infected).
But it does not cause symptoms in the majority of people.
MAYBE - just maybe - one of the reasons why treatments are not working is that because Borrelia may be not the major thing what is making us ill with LYME SYMPTOMS.
When 2 diseases (herpes and lyme) look the same (by list of symptoms), and we seem to have both immunosuppressive stealth infections activated creating the same type of symptoms, why would we choose ONE DISEASE being the main, and the other the SECONDARY consequence??
What if most symptoms we had did not come simply from (reactivated) chronic viral infections?
It DOES matter to know because antibiotics will make the viral problem INCREASE, because it strongly weakens the first gun we have against viruses: our immune system (as the gut microbiome is the headmaster of the immune system).
posted
Keebler, yes, babesia came instantly to my mind as well. Also could be bartonella. M. Davis is supposed to be releasing a paper sometime this year about a pathogen(I think he said pathogen) he found in his ME/CFS cohorts. But I doubt it's babesia - if it is, far more people are infected with a strain than we imagined.
Brussels: Yes, you may be right. It could be a tandem thing.
One of the things that keeps me thinking what I have is the three B's - Borrelia and Babesia and Baronella - besides my labs, is the shenanigans Lyme researchers engaged in first in the early 80's (1983 to be specific with that infamous study deviding Lyme symptoms into Major and Minor) and then circa 1990 when the vacinne $'s beckoned.
It is those suspect shenaigans that for me lends credence to the idea that they knew how pathogenic Lyme was.
Do you see my point? They went out of their way to conjure an image of harmlessness.
For me, Lyme disease is ONLY Bb. Each co-infection is the name of that co-infection. Each downstream effect like mast cell disorder or mold sensitivities or you name it, is that downstream effect.
This semantics thing of course has no bearing on your theory. There are many who would argue its merits. Hopefully we can get some research directed into it.
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Brussels
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Other diseases VERY similar to the lyme symptom cluster are candida and mold diseases.
Their symptoms are VERY similar to what is known by lyme disease.
Both are immunosuppressive again, both very stubborn problems. Again.
Yes, we don't know if there is ONE 'pathogen' that is more immunosuppressive than others
- we with lyme assume it's Borrelia, but the CFS community assumes it's EBV or viruses -...
People with chronic candida will attribute all to chronic candida.
The ones suffering from mold will say everything is due to mold.
What bugs me is that we keep telling poor guys diagnosed with lyme to go on anti-bacterial mode first when we in fact don't know what is causing the poor guy's symptoms.
If in our brains, lyme is mainly a BACTERIAL disease caused by Borrelia, it's normal to suggest a person to go weeks on antibiotics or anti bacterial treatments.
If in our brains we are NOT SURE what is EXACTLY causing 'lyme symptoms', we wouldn't suggest EVERYONE to go on antibiotics first....
....just IN CASE our main problem is viral (for example). Antibiotics will be counter productive and make symptoms worse.
The main reason I stopped antibiotics very fast was that I thought I had enough problems with chronic candida.
Only later I came to realize virtually everyone with chronic lyme would have had to fight chronic candida sooner or later. --------------------------
I guess this is what bugs my mind: why do we keep pushing people to do all these aggressive anti-bacterial treatments with drugs that suppress the immune system, ...
....knowing that the guy with lyme will anyway have sooner or later (or always had PREVIOUS TO BORRELIA) viruses, candida and other problems such as allergies (severe allergies)?
All of them are extremely immunosuppressive!
Keebler said all that had been discussed before, so there must be an answer already in the internet, I suppose?
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There are only THEORIES, thanks in great measure to the dwindling research $'s directed at not just Borrelia, but at things like Bartonella and Babesia and ME/CFS.
Do you know how many strains of bartoenlla there are vs how many they actually test for with crappy tests? Do you know that most cases of babesiosis are not resolved? Do you know how little funding is allocated into the garbage diagnosis of ME/CFS - that has serious organic credentials?
As most everyone who reads this forum, I could go on and on.
We have theories.
For me at least, on most days I cannot claim which theory is better than any other. On the other days, I'm likely just stupider than usual so I get opinionated. Posts: 228 | From Unitied States | Registered: Jul 2015
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steve1906
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Brussels, I think I was able to get most of it.....
Lyme Disease, Herpes Virus Connection by Marcus Ettinger | Oct 9, 2017 | Epigenetics & Genetics | 14 comments
Lyme Disease, Herpes Virus Connection My theory on Lyme disease symptoms, in those with or without co-infections.
Background:
I put forward that Lyme disease symptoms are not primarily generated by the Lyme bacteria, Borrelia burgdorferi, but by the reactivation of one or more herpes virus within the peripheral and/or central nervous system.
This reactivation will primarily affect the vagus nerve, which helps to control the heart, lungs, and digestive tract. Herpes virus plays no favorites and can affect any nerve as well as the entire brain.
Herpesviridae is a large family of DNA viruses of which there are 6 commonly known variants, HHV1-6. This family of virus and its predilection to cause humans great suffering, acutely and over a lifetime,
especially those with an immune system that is overtaxed (Lyme, co-infections, stress, nutritional deficiencies…) or suppressed, is totally underestimated by the average person and most doctors – Lyme literate or not.
Herpes 1-6 cannot only invade our nervous system, but it can evade detection by our own immune system as well.
It’s lucky, I guess, that both of these mechanisms occur outside of the estimated 100 trillion bacterial cells that make up our microbiome.
The good news is that around 70 to 75 percent of our immune system is in our gut. The bad news is that 75 percent of all of my new patients come in for gut related problems. This 75 percent of potential immunity, so to speak, is now reduced by a little or a lot.
As you will notice after reading, below, the effects of herpes viral infections, you will see an overlap if not the exact symptoms of what a person infected or diagnosed with Lyme may experience.
Lyme taxes the immune system and the antibiotics given to a Lyme patient further stresses the immune system by altering the gut flora (microbiome), which contributes up to 75% of our total ability to fight a war within our body.
This scenario plays right into the hand of one or more herpes virus to reactivate and begin destroying the host’s nervous system, leading to a variety of terrible symptoms as well as named diseases and disorders.
As an FYI: antibiotics are known to cause neurotoxicity in the those with a prior neurological disease.
Herpes is a neuroinvasive virus, which may affect both the peripheral and central nervous systems. Most if not all of us have been exposed to one or more herpes virus, beginning in our youth.
In those experiencing a reactivation (see HHV1-6 below), which the person may not be aware of, antibiotic use may further aggravate the reactivated virus or may actually initiate the reactivation of the virus.
It’s a lose-lose scenario for those with Lyme as well as susceptible antibiotic users.
The Herpes Virus Family: (All herpes virus possess the ability to reactivate at any time).
“Does non-native EMF (nnEMF) exposure explain why Alzheimer’s Disease (AD) is often caused by type 3 diabetes (diabetes of the brain)? You do remember Nora Volkow showed nnEMF increases glucose metabolism in the brain in 2011, right?
Does nnEMF overexposure explain why an infection seems to be related to the pathophysiology of AD?
On the surface, this sounds counterintuitive until you understand how free vitamin A from melanopsin ruins the chromophores in the immune system to make viral infection more likely.
This means the more blue light and nnEMF abuse you use the more likely your sleep will be destroyed and your blood, body and cells will be littered with viruses. No one seems to realize how Vitamin A and viral illness link but Black Swans.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored by most people in science and the public and lies promulgated by the FCC and FDA should not be held as gospel because most of the public believes nnEMF is safe. Today in medicine, telling the truth has become a revolutionary act because of these two conditions
A recent research report published in the July 2015 issue of the Journal of Leukocyte Biology helps to explain this perspective.
Blue light and nnEMF destroy how the immune system works with viruses. It went into detail why too much free vitamin A can be harmful to tissues like the immune system.
This is why at its core neurodegenerative diseases always seems to be related to some type of infectious process.
It is not the infectious agent that is the cause, it is the training of how the cells react to pathogens that have been usurped by nnEMF in the immune system that matters most.
Any light outside the spectrum causes this facade and blue light outside of the suns other protective frequencies in the visible spectrum are capable of causing this type of immune regulation.
This scheme becomes fully able to cause a disease state to manifest.
Too much freed vitamin A in the blood plasma shuts down the body’s trained immunity system, opening the door to many opportunistic infections to which we would otherwise be immune.
This is why so many with blue light toxicity and nnEMF have other infectious diseases like viral, bacterial, and fungal or mold issues when they have a pre-existing technology problem destroying melanopsin biology and freeing Vitamin A to cause the damage.” Dr. Jack Kruse
HHV-1 [Herpes simplex virus-1] Oral and/or genital herpes (predominantly orofacial) The primary symptom is cold sores with associated neuralgia along the affected nerve(s). According to the World Health Organization, 67% of the world population under the age of 50 have HSV-1.
HSV-1 is the most common cause of viral encephalitis, which causes very dangerous inflammation of the brain, and can be fatal. When infecting the brain, the virus shows a preference for the temporal lobe (memory).
HSV-1 has also been proposed as a possible cause of Alzheimer’s disease. More Evidence Herpes Virus Strongly Tied to Alzheimer’s.
In the presence of a certain gene variation (APOE-4 carriers). HSV-1 can produce chronic neural inflammation and oxidative stress, inducing oxidative DNA damage during an active infection. This happens predominately in those over 60 but can affect those susceptible at any age.
HHV-2 [Herpes simplex virus-2] Oral and/or genital herpes (predominantly genital) The primary symptom is herpetic lesions which may reoccur throughout one’s lifetime.
The lesions or outbreaks can appear on or within the genitals, lips, eyes or affected mucous membranes. There is also associated neuralgia along the affected nerve(s).
HSV-2 is the most common cause of Mollaret’s meningitis (symptoms/reference link)*, a type of recurrent viral meningitis.
*Mollaret’s sounds like a lot of the Lyme patients I’ve seen over the years. Mollaret meningitis is a rare type of viral meningitis that is characterized by repeated episodes of fever, stiff neck (meningismus), muscle aches, and severe headaches separated by weeks or months of no symptoms.
About half of affected individuals may also experience long-term abnormalities of the nervous system that come and go, such as seizures, double vision, abnormal reflexes, some paralysis of a cranial nerve (paresis), hallucinations, or coma.
VZV multiplies in the lungs and causes a wide variety of symptoms. After the primary infection (chickenpox), the virus goes dormant in the nerves, including the cranial nerve ganglia (nerves above the neck),
dorsal root ganglia (sensory nerve endings out of the spine – thermal, mechanical) and autonomic ganglia (control everything – almost).
Many years after the patient has recovered from chickenpox, VZV can reactivate to cause mild to severe neurologic conditions.
HHV-4 [Epstein–Barr virus (EBV)]
It is best known as the cause of infectious mononucleosis (glandular fever). It is also associated with particular forms of cancer, such as Hodgkin’s lymphoma, Burkitt’s lymphoma, gastric cancer, nasopharyngeal carcinoma, and conditions associated with (HIV).
There is evidence that infection with EBV is associated with a higher risk of certain autoimmune diseases, especially dermatomyositis, systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE), rheumatoid arthritis (RA), Sjögren’s syndrome, and multiple sclerosis (MS). Some 200,000 cancer cases per year are thought to be attributable to EBV.
Over half of all adults, by age 40, have been infected with CMV. Once CMV is in a person’s body, it stays there for life and can reactivate. A person can also be reinfected with a different strain (variety) of the virus.
Like the other herpesviruses, HHV-6 establishes lifelong latency and can become reactivated later in life. This reactivation has been associated with many clinical manifestations.
Reactivation can occur in locations throughout the body, including the brain, lungs, heart, kidney and gastrointestinal tract. In some cases, HHV-6 reactivation in the brain tissue can cause cognitive dysfunction, permanent disability, and death.
A growing number of studies also suggest that HHV-6 and (HHV-7 – similar to HHV-6 but 10% smaller) may play a role in a subset of patients with chronic neurological and neurodegenerative diseases
such as Alzheimer’s, multiple sclerosis, mesial temporal lobe epilepsy (the most common form of epilepsy), and chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS).
Empirical Data and Clinical Trial: After treating well over 50 verifiable Lyme patients I have come to a number of conclusions.
NEVER go into agreement with your diagnosis. NEVER claim or own your diagnosis “my MS is acting up today.” If you claim it, you own it. The innate, inborn, God-given, intelligence that created the body, if given a chance, is the same power that can heal the body.
Long-term antibiotics create more problems than they will ever fix – they are not the solution.
Epigenetic Factors (sleep, diet [including supplementation if necessary], exercise, thought/emotion/perceptions, and nervous system interference) all need to be DIALED-IN before a treatment (medication, supplements, herbs…) will have its fullest potential realized.
Merely balancing out a patients electrolytes (sodium, chloride, potassium, magnesium, calcium, and phosphorus), and tweaking their microbiome has had a more positive effect on these patients than $1000’s of dollars of medications and esoteric herbs ever did. The cost was also under $200
Lab testing for herpes virus and APOE genotypes has pinpointed active as well as past exposure to multiple herpes virus. A number of those also tested positive for APOE-4, a predisposing factor for brain involvement (neural Lyme, Alzheimer’s and heart disease).
Patients who followed a natural anti-herpetic protocol, as well a GI restoration protocol reduced (subjectively – based on routine oral questioning), no less than 75-80% of the symptoms they initially presented with. Those who stayed on antibiotics did not benefit from any of the protocols.
Biofilm protocol has been of immense help to those with biofilm-forming bacteria. Low dose naltrexone (LDN) had a benefit on some but not others. CBD oil benefited some but not others. Exercise benefited all. Chiropractic benefited all.
Thoughts become things, like the development of a disease or the creation of health. Change your beliefs you can change your reality!
A durable resolution (long-lasting) requires the patient to never drop-out what got them to their new level of health. In fact, the older they get the more diligent they need to be. Conclusion:
In my heart and in my head I don’t believe Lyme bacteria, Borrelia burgdorferi is the bogeyman. I do believe that Lyme bacteria can be a seed that germinates and causes a latent herpes virus to reactivate. This reactivation, in my opinion, is the cause of most if not all of one’s symptoms.
Lyme has the moniker, “the great mimicker.” It’s not. Most in the Lyme community just give Lyme the credit for another’s, behind the scene, dirty work.
Add to the mix antibacterial and antiprotozoal agents and you have set up a perfect storm for problems within the nervous system and immune system, and all the repercussions that those problems can create.
When proper testing and a proper protocol is implemented the patient can gently be moved from their fragile straw house to their stronger stick house, and then finally to their impervious brick house.
This takes time, patience, and an unwavering belief in the fact that, when epigenetic factors are dialed-in and applied diligently, the body will heal itself to the best of its ability.
If you change your beliefs you can change your reality. Here are two powerful and very enlightening 5-minute videos. The first is, “The Programmable Mind” by cellular biologist and epigeneticist, Bruce Lipton PhD
The basic elements of life are (hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon). These combined give us the straw house – weak and flimsy but looks like a house.
Add in a proper ratio of minerals (sodium, magnesium, potassium, calcium, phosphorus…) and you now have a stick house – stronger but still vulnerable, inside and out.
Now, add in through food and/or supplementation (trace minerals, fat, prebiotics [fiber] to benefit the gut flora [microbiome], clean water, exercise, enzymes, polyphenols…) and you have a strong brick house – inside and out.
Brick house people get well fast, present with fewer symptoms when sick and/or rarely get sick. Brick house people don’t develop body problems like straw and stick house people do.
It may sound too simple of a concept to believe is true but it is and it works in just about every condition that can affect a body, from allergies to cancer.
“The severity of one’s symptoms or condition does not dictate the complexity of the solution” and “There are really no difficult conditions to handle only difficult people.” Dr. Ettinger
I am a supreme optimist! Treating patients for 29+ years has given me the luxury and privilege to follow many of my patients for 10, 15 and 20+ years.
I have witnessed incredible, positive transformation as well as progressive decline. I have coached people for years in order for them to realize their dream of regaining health and vitality.
There was no magic pill or quick fix. There was a little magic though. It was in the form of a strong belief and desire to be well, combined with action and personal responsibility.
Update 4-23-18 to augment the above paragraph:
This is worth more than money – “changing lives.” This is from a distance client in Australia – almost 3 years into his relationship with me.
We have come from just about the absolute bottom, mentally and physically, at age 63. Now he’s an uptone, healthy and active 66 years old. He put in A LOT of hard work and is reaping the rewards. This is his more recent update.
“Hello Dr. Ettinger, About myself first, I am improving on a daily basis and loving the good feeling that comes with it.
I started with strength training as per your advice, and I am very happy that I took on the advice. I never managed to do a single push-up in my whole life, but last week I got up to do 5.”
Dr. Marcus Ettinger,
Steve
(breaking up the post for easier reading for many here)
posted
Maybe there are different kinds of herpes viruses, so maybe we all get different ones. But I can say my experience with herpes was nothing like my experience with Lyme - absolutely nothing in common. Two different illnesses for me.
I didn't get sick with Lyme symptoms until after a known infected tick bite. Whereas the herpes infection was long treated with Acyclovir and under control.
In my research of other illnesses, I think my symptoms also sound most like symptoms of mycoplasma fermentans, which might have gotten mixed with the Lyme bacteria.
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Steve, that was brilliant, thank you!
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Robin, did you read the post of Dr Ettinger?
How can you know your symptoms are caused by Borrelia and not by Herpes family viruses, which produce the EXACT SAME LYME SYMPTOMS?
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The title of the thread should have been:
- Do herpes family viruses cause lyme cluster of symptoms? - Yes, ABSOLUTELY YES.
If it were: - Do herpes family viruses cause Borreliosis to activate? - We sincerely do not know because herpes family viruses are also hard to diagnose, and are clinically diagnosed, like Borrelia is. Maybe yes, maybe no.
- Does Borrelia cause herpes to activate? - Yes, that's known, common sense today.
- So if both pathogens cause the same set of symptoms (exactly the same!!), and are difficult do diagnose, how do we know our symptoms belong to one and not the other? - We sincerely don't know. Or am I wrong?
- Is there such a thing as chronic herpes? - It seems that yes, like chronic borreliosis.
- Can the herpes infections be low grade, barely creating symptoms? - Yes, absolutely, like Borrelia.
- Which one are the MOST immuno suppressive: Borrelia or herpes? - I think we do not know. Both are stealth, hard to diagnose, hard to treat.
- Are most people infected with herpes? - Herpes viruses are extremely common, that I wonder if there is any 40 year old person would be free from them.
- Are most people infected with Borrelia? - I guess numbers are high, but still, probably less than herpes.
- Can we know for sure it is Borrelia causing our immuno suppression because of a positive blood exam? - Of course, we cannot. Dr Rau said that most people in endemic areas will be Borrelia-positive (Westernblot), but only a few exhibit symptoms. Lyme is diagnosed clinically.
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Dr Ettinger above has the following theory:
Borrelia activates herpes, and symptoms attributed to lyme are actually herpes symptoms.
Well, there is a 50-50% chance he's right once symptoms attributed to lyme and to herpes family viruses are exactly the same.
Even if he's wrong, we all know that lyme is a complex disease, with bacterial, protozoal, parasitic, fungal and viral components.
Each of them can cause many bad symptoms, we know. Even kill.
And we don't know which of the pathogens are really causing immuno suppression the most - or if there is such a master-mind (like we assume Borrelia is, but it could also be Bartonella, or EBV, or Herpes zoster, or all of them together....)
Knowing all about what we know and don't know, how is it possible that the most recommended treatment for lyme are antibiotics FIRST LINE?
Antibiotics should come at the last line, because they weaken the immune system, plus help to add neurotoxins to an already neuro-toxic patient.
Antibiotics are first lyme JUST because it is believed our lyme symptoms come from bacteria!
Give antibiotics to a lyme patient who also suffer from viral infections, candida and allergies (and sincerely, we don't know WHICH is THE MOST IMMUNOSUPPRESSIVE critter, nor from WHERE are the symptoms coming from) ....
... and get the following outcome:
- less bacterial infections - more viral infections
- more fungal infections - more neuro toxins
- more allergies - more gut and digestive problems
- more autoimmune problems - more toxicity (due to drug toxicity itself)
If this all has been discussed before, well, I wonder why Burrascano is still the main recommended treatment for lyme disease?
Because if a lyme patient is a soup of immuno suppressive pathogens, one critter allowing others to 'wake up', ...
.... many of them causing the SAME SYMPTOMS we call 'lyme symptoms' (even candida cause very similar lyme symptoms) why do we treat the guy with antibiotics first line?
Because we 'believe' Borrelia is behind that all.
Change your belief to 'we don't know who is causing all these symptoms' ...
.. and add what WE KNOW - that lyme symptoms are caused by NOT ONLY BACTERIA, but also FUNGAL, VIRAL, parasitic and G-knows what else, meaning an extreme immunosuppressive disease,...
... and the LAST THING you would recommend is something that would DAMAGE the IMMUNE SYSTEM of the patient.
That certainly includes the GUT MICROBIOME, and excludes anything that is IMMUNO SUPRRESSIVE and toxic.
In short, antibiotics, steroids, etc should come LAST LINE, as emergency treatments, but not front line. At least in my logic.
Funny to know dr Ettinger claims to have treated lyme for years (29 years of practice) using antiviral approach (not with drugs), avoiding antibiotics, and claims to have very good results.
It could be a coincidence, but if I were you, still suffering from this damn disease for so long, and your antibacterial antiprotozoal approach is leading you to nothing... well, I would give a chance to an antiviral approach (but not with drugs).
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- There is no evidence that Dr Ettinger has even really studied lyme. There are things he says that indicates his thoughts are not scientifically based - regarding lyme. Regarding some of the viral elements, yeah, some good detail. But there's more to it.
For anyone to basically say lyme is really no big deal - at the very least, they would still have to learn the science of lyme.
There are multiple holes in the theory that lyme symptoms are not really lyme symptoms at all. A real danger in the way all this is being stated.
Yes, the coinfections can certain comfound the issues and should be assessed and addressed.
Yes, there can be symptom overlap with multiple chronic stealth infections. But we can't just say, hey, I'm going to interpret the lyme symptoms as something else because that would be so much easier for me to accept.
Lyme can be fatal even just all by itself. It can cause serious debilities in multiple ways.
Together with other infections - lyme still must be considered for as long as it takes - with doctors who have adequately studied the science of it, as well the science of the various coinfections.
I know the difference between lyme symptoms - the difference when lyme came into my life was seriously worse - and with some very different aspects from chronic mono or the like.
And the articles, lectures, books by various well-studied and experienced - true - LLMDs and some LL NDs was essential to my understanding of it.
They are not all in an echo chamber as many have studied to bring to the table aspects to consider within lyme / TBD . . . but the key difference in them and those with sloppy theories is that they really have studied the unique world of Bb.
Again, no true well-studied LLMD or LL ND is ever going to say lyme is a solo player but none can rightly say that it can be just ignored, either.
And - more to the matter - it's really what's going on in a particular individual as to what is best to focus on at any point in time. Each patient requires individual rotations from time to time. Ideally, a well-studied, experienced LLMD or LL ND is best to guide that.
ILADS is a very impressive collection of professionals who keep learning, always thinking within, around, outside the box and in general working so hard to find answers. I've never been more impressed with any group.
They are inviting to doctors & other scientists across the world, they offer adjunct views in their conference presentations and also keep patients in mind - in the loop.
For the many who have been left on their own with inadequate treatment protocol or times with such -- due to finances or lack of experienced doctors - it's also up to us to study all we can of the science of this.
Whether or not we treat according the ILADS or Burrascano guidelines, we still have to know the science of it from in our time - up to present day -
- before we can understand how to make any switch-over to something like, say, Rife machine or herbals (both methods can be very effective for some, especially those who have trouble tolerating Rx.)
ILADS website and
www.lymedisease.org - LymeDisease.org website educational links are also superb.
The book by LL journalist Pamela Weintraub: Cure Unknown is "required" reading. She did success in remission, though, and there is a distinction to that.
Even if one is not keen on herbs, very much LL, master herbalist Stephen H. Buhner's series of books are brimming with science explained in such interesting language - even if we can only read a bit at a time.
For anyone new to tall this, be careful not to be side-tracked into trading one infection for another, so to speak. More often, they are on top of each other.
We might be frustrated with the complexity or lack of progress that does not mean lyme is not still a major issue. The toxicity of lyme is at the top of the charts, just below that of botulism.
Whether through the sheer toxicity of it or other mechanisms, it can be fatal - yet it is possible to be mitigated and put into remission.
It may require different methods for different people yet understanding the basic science of how EACH infection does with it does will be at the base of the plan.
It's nothing to ignore, though there are various ways to address -- still nothing to ever ignore. -
[ 01-06-2019, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Keebler, how can you actually know your symptoms are from lyme?
Herpes is not only EBV but there are other 6 known strains to cause disease in humans.
Many (if not most) of us have more than one strain.
And if you are long in lyme, you know how much symptoms keep changing... Who here had lyme with fixed symptoms? No one.
---------------
Yes, Borrelia is very toxic, but that does not make it entitled to be THE immuno suppressive master mind behind the lyme cluster of symptoms.
Of course we know that when one infection takes foreground, we need to treat it before, be it a viral infection or fungal infection or bacterial infection.
Lyme is a cluster of toxic pathogens.
I'm not taking one or another side (I'm just raising a question here, about what kind of way should we go to get rid of lyme symptoms).
That we should rotate treatments, yes, we all know that.
That we should include antibiotics, NOPE, that is what bugs me.
Only in emergency, of course yes!
Long term is absolutely NO. It makes zero sense.
Choosing antibiotics middle term OR long term is to take SIDES to the bacterial side of lyme and IGNORE the rest, which is the lyme syndrome made of a soup of pathogens.
It's to ignore viruses and fungi to the profit of bacteria, just because the view on lyme is ONE SIDED:
It's believed that it's not a problem to use treatments that increase + viral load + increase fungal load
....because unfortunately, that is what antibiotics help to do.
It's the Burrascano approach (or any antibiotic as 1st gun approach) that is one sided in my opinion.
Now guys proposing natural antibacterial that do NOT SUPPRESS the immune system or mess up with the gut flora, nor add more to the neurotoxic soup of lyme, well, this is more than fine, possibly the only way out of lyme.
That is exactly what many are already doing.
The 1-SIDED VIEW is the view that considers bacteria as the main source of problems and IGNORE the rest on purpose.
It's basically the propaganda for the use of antibiotics as first line against lyme that bothers me, because of its extreme immunosupressive side (specially if used long term).
Just see what happens to most chronic lyme patients and tell me wrong:
- autoimmune diseases of all sorts on the rise, - fungal and candida infections on the rise,
- viral infections on the rise, - food allergies,
- multiple chemical sensitivity, - extreme problems with the gut, digestion,
- extreme liver toxicity, - nerve toxicity,
- even cancer seems to be more common during or after lyme...
ONE SIDED approach is to CHOOSE antibiotics to treat bacteria and ignore the list above.
I'm totally for Buhner, homeopathics, diet, exercise, holistic types of treatments, be them immunomodulating, antibacterial, anti whatever thing, in rotation, ...
....as long as they do NOT DAMAGE the main gun we have to fight chronic lyme symptoms, which is the immune system (including the gut flora).
I'm exactly proposing that here: forget the one sided approach that lyme symptoms are MAINLY caused by BACTERIA-ONLY and enlarge your view to consider:
'I don't exactly know if what's behind my symptoms are bacteria, but it could be viruses, fungi, toxins, immune problems...'
Only then you'll take full care of your microbiome and do your best to AVOID treatments that wipe your immune system off.
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- How do I know?
Three tiny ticks gathered on my hairline in the Columbia River Gorge & whispered into my ears -- lime jell-o, key lime pie, tonight, lime margarita, Sweetie? Would that be good enough for you to be convinced?
I did not know what they were then. Took several days to detach despite my best efforts at scraping off what I thought were tiny bits of tree tar from my hike.
The next years were nearly fatal to me, with no clue then what was wrong and no doctor I could find who knew the kind of science I needed them to know.
Years later, a neurotologist said it was evident to him but that's all he could say..
I had to get the testing through a ND and even with positives for 3 TBDs, my MD literally tossed my test results from Igenex in the trash and said "no lyme in this state".
So, I studied the science, I watched dozens of ILADS presentations. I got the positive test results. I know. Believe me, I know. This is not just a guess or some whisper in my ear.
It's dangerous to tell someone to ignore this. Simply dangerous. -
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quote:Originally posted by Brussels: Robin, did you read the post of Dr Ettinger?
How can you know your symptoms are caused by Borrelia and not by Herpes family viruses, which produce the EXACT SAME LYME SYMPTOMS?
The herpes I got DID NOT GIVE ME ANY symptoms like the Lyme ones! Herpes is a viral infection. It's very uncomfortable temporarily. The Acyclovir drug stopped it.
So, I had a known tick bite in my foot. I can date every symptom. Symptoms came on gradually. First a stiff neck 15 months later. Then fatigue. Then sensitivity to light. Then muscle pain 18 months later. Then my jaw closed.
This is all delayed stuff, as the infection gradually takes hold. Very different experience for me than a temporary viral breakout.
Now I'm wondering if you're referring to other forms of herpes that I never got, since maybe different infections can cause different symptoms?
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Ok, I had not read Dr E's post. Thx, Steve, for getting it. I just broke up the text for easier reading.
I guess where I'm left after reading it is, how can Dr E make any medical claim at all as to how one infection affects another? Are there any science experiments with the bugs in a laboratory? Where's the proof?
Where's the proof that borrelia excites herpes? Not in my case. I got a slow simmering Lyme infection, but never got a herpes infection during that time. In fact, I got very little herpes at all. It was the Lyme infection that was increasing all the time, and with completely different symptoms than a herpes breakout.
And I can put as much Acyclovir in me as possible and it's not going to do diddly-squat for the Lyme symptoms. One is a virus and one is spirochetal bacteria. They're not the same entities.
True that people have a soup of infections in them. I think we need to treat them all.
Given that we have a virulent bacterial infection, why does Dr E even need to look elsewhere for causative symptoms? The bacteria inflames the body very well, all by itself.
If you can show me some scientific proof that one can affect the other, I'll be happy to read it.
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Ok Robin, there is no proof of anything that Borrelia 'excites' the herpes...
Herpes is considered a co-infection in lyme today.
Which to my understanding means, that Borrelia allows herpes to activate due to its immunosuppressive character (like Dr. Rawls says).
That is commonly accepted today as the truth.
I find you guys funny:
- we all accept that Borrelia is practically resistant not only to antibiotics but also to most treatments.
- well, how can you then simply think that other chronic pathogens would be different?
Acyclovir does not cure herpes, anyway. It just lowers the apparent symptoms.
Same way that antibiotics sometimes lower apparent symptoms of lyme.
---------------------------- - Borrelia can creep into your body for years, decades, creating minor symptoms and mining your immune system until a collapse happens.
- Same as for any of the herpes family of viruses: it stays in your body forever, it may create minor symptoms, or it may create loads of symptoms. It also mines the immune system.
I love you guys with the simple equation thinking: Acyclovir is not going to help my lyme symptoms!
Well, I'm not proposing that because we all know that even antibiotics will not do much for lyme either.
The last thing I think would be reasonable to do is to take a chemical antiviral.
Just read the info on acyclovir:
" Use acyclovir with caution if you have kidney disease or any condition that weakens your immune system.
If you have these conditions, you could be at risk for serious reactions to acyclovir."
Well, chronic virus, chronic infections, chronic borrelia is already a chronic immune weakness.
No one with active chronic infections should be taking Acyclovir. -------------------------------
Can't you realize what you are saying?
Something like:
"A 'simple' virus infection is easy to heal with antiviruses (like my herpes was), there is no such a thing as a chronic viral infection creating low grade symptoms (or acute symptoms) difficult to treat, difficult to diagnose because the antiviral cured my herpes!"
If you people in the lyme community cannot understand that there MAY BE OTHER pathogens that are as immunosuppressive as Borreliosis, that can create low grade symptoms, that can become chronic, that is difficult to diagnose AND to treat, well, I don't know who can.
The whole world out there is thinking the exact same about the lyme community:
"Lyme is just a 'simple' bacterial infection, easy to heal with antibacterial treatments (I know someone who was easily cured), and there is not such a thing as a chronic bacterial infection creating low grade symptoms (or acute symptoms), difficult to treat, difficult to diagnose. It's all in your mind!"
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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I hope you have a good couch to wait for scientific proofs.
First wait for conclusive serology tests to appear in the market, to first prove whether the patient has active Borrelia and the dozens of coinfections, both tick born and non-tick born.
We're still some time from that... Specially because the number of lyme coinfections, just seem to increase.
Then wait for the whole scientific community to accept EACH of these tests as being THE valid ones that prove when the infection is active and when it is not (because most of these pathogens remain in the host for life, so there must be a way to see in serology a difference which means 'active' or 'dormant').
After that, doctors will have a tool to access whether a patient is ill with which infection, how much each infection is active in the patient, and see if a treatment lowers the active symptoms from each infection in the serology, so doctors can start finally trials.
After a few years, there will be some clues emerging about treatments and improvements.
I sincerely don't feel that young to wait...
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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I was one of the first persons to try Buhner's herbs when he first published his book a couple of months after his book was published in 2005.
There was just one more person in lymenet who started trying that back in October 2005, if I remember well.
I'm a practical person, looking for treatments and solutions, not for proofs.
I've got a PhD in another field.
It's easy to remark that medicine is not a science like math, physics or chemistry.
We talk about pathogens as though they were fixed entities, but even that is just a myth: each pathogen keeps changing pleomorphically, one can spend one's life studying a single pathogen and one will still not know much about it.
Today we know that one drug may work for one of the forms of Borrelia, but the same drug won't work for another (like L-forms).
The point is, ALL bacteria are pleomorphic, not only Borrelia.
So even if you concentrate your efforts in one single species of Borrelia your whole life, you got already a big field of study (concerning treatments that work for each type of pleomorphic forms of Borrelia).
And as Buhner says, bacteria learns from one another, and each generation has a different set of tools to survive, because it never stops learning.
Borrelia of today, is not like Borrelia of 2005.
Now you add all tick born co-infections + non-tick born co-infections which are part of the lyme 'syndrome', each of them pleomorphic, each of them evolving and LEARNING strategies from each other, improving each generation, and you already don't know WHERE your field of study starts or ends due to mere number of variable elements.
So I'd rather do like we all do: go to a doctor who is known to make their patients feel well and see what he proposes.
Now you guys keep coming back with this non-sense comment: "Well, this doctor may have cured hundreds of lyme patients, but where is the scientific proof?"
Come on guys, I don't even consider medicine is a science because the human body is not a machine like a diesel engine, that runs on equations and laws of physics and chemistry only.
No. Not only the human body is complex, so are pathogens.
You can keep wanting the science behind - the same science that cannot find out what causes the MAJOR chronic diseases that plague humanity today.
They have no clue how diabetis start, no clue about high or low blood pressure, about cancer, it's not even a matter of lack of money.
Look at cancer, if the cancer industry had no money to do their research, I wonder who will ever have.
Despite all that, their recommended treatment is still one that has been practiced since the Iron Age, probably, when knifes and swords appeared: chop the sick organ off + extremely poisonous treatments that kill the cancer cells AND any healthy cell indiscriminately.
If you believe in medicine as a science, good, but I sincerely believe in treatments that may make you feel better, and treatments that may not.
Don't be too naive to think that fighting 'simple' virus in its chronic form is to take a 'simple' chemical drug, the same way we are not naive to consider Borrelia as a 'simple' bacterium that dies with a 'simple' chemical drug.
Brussels
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And with sincere respect for Keebler, that I know is our best source of info at lymenet...
...once the ticks bit you and you developed all your symptoms
- like it happened to me MANY TIMES as I had been bitten at least 84 times in the last 14 years, and I'm counting the minimum numbers, which are about 6 bites a year, while I could get up to 12 bites/ year without any problem... -
How can we be sure symptoms are caused by Borrelia or tick born co-infections?
The theory of Dr Ettinger could be also true: Borrelia is the trigger that reactivates viruses and so come the symptoms.
We all know that in the ballet of tick born coinfections, 1 or 2 coinfection takes the main role and cause our main symptoms, while others are there, but cause nothing.
Then we treat that active infection, we feel better, then new set of symptoms come, we find out which infection(s) is involved, treat it, feel better, then another shows up (it had been already there, but sort of 'dormant').
I see absolutely no problem with the theory of Borrelia activating herpes viruses in MOST lyme patients. It's already in the statistics.
It could be that herpes are causing symptoms, and Borrelia is in the background, waiting for the moment to show up, growing in numbers, strengthening itself, until herpes is treated, then Borrelia shows up.
Why not?
Don't you guys find it strange that the NUMBER ONE coinfection of lyme are HERPES FAMILY VIRUSES , much more than any of the known coinfections of lyme?
Dr Ettinger said he treated his patients this way aiming chronic viral infections not bacterial, and that they got better.
What is his interest in lying?
(I'm sure dr Rawls would never treat chronic EBV with antivirals either, but do a holistic approach).
I'm sure the equation of lyme-herpes is not that simple as I'm hypothesizing here, that of course tick born infections also play a role on symptoms, ...
....but the fact that so many lyme patients suffer from reactivated herpes viruses, and that they present THE EXACT SYMPTOMS WE ATTRIBUTE TO LYME looks to me TOO interesting to let it go without further consideration.
there is a DIFFERENCE between ACTIVE herpes and CHRONIC herpes, the same way that there is a difference between chronic lyme and acute lyme
I don't suffer from lyme anymore. I'm just doing a brain exercise.
If I still had lyme, I would give myself a try (I mean, a holistic long term treatment against chronic viruses, of course, not a drug treatment for acute disease).
If chronic herpes exists, and plagues lyme patients without their knowledge, that could explain why antibiotics are making the situation worse than better.
I'm not saying this is the truth, but that this sounds like a good possibility.
Bartenderbonnie
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posted
I think we can all agree that's it's never JUST Lyme.
Any chronic illness, be it Lyme, viruses, mycroplasmas, mold, allergies, ect, cause inflammation in the body. Symptoms are similar and debilitating. Inflamation cytokines lower the immune system and cause other illnesses to activate. Lowing inflammation cytokines is KEY. In order to do this, one must address all known causes.
When in doubt, go to the EXPERT, Dr H.
"Lyme Disease is not just Lyme. It is a Multiiple Systemic Infectious Disease Syndrome. Over the past 30 years I have developed a 16 point healthcare map called MDIDS; Multiple Systemic Infectious Disease Syndrome. This 16 points must ALL be addresses in order for a patient to get well."
Page 3; 1. Infections; "Four types of infections are assessed. Some are tick borne and others may be mosquito borne and or transmitted by other vectors ( including fleas, lice, mites, biting flies and spider bites) or due to human to human transmission."
(A) Bacteria; borrelia and other borrelia species (B) Parasites; Babesia and other piroplasmas, toxoplasmosis, intestinal parasites/giardia, pinworm, hookworm, ect (C) Viruses; Herpes simplex virus(HSVI) and (HSV2), Human Herpes Virus 6 (HHV6), Epstein Barr Virus (EBV), Cytomegalovirus (CMV), Coxsackle Virus, Parvovirus, West Nile Virus (WNV). (D) Candida and other Fungi
Page 7; Dr H lists over 30 different laboratories that he utilizes, more than one lab per patient. "There may be multiple intercellular baterial infections, latent reactivating viruses and a broad screening approach is necessary using multiple testing strategies over time."
"IgG1 and IgG3 subclass deficiencies found in our Lyme patient population could represent active viral ( herpes virus, EBV, CMV, HHV6) and a intracellular bateria infection, since these functions are especially important againest pathogen clearance. "
"Although immune deficiency is known to increase the risk of infection, is infection increasing the risk of immune deficiency? Do chronic viral infections found in our study, like HHV6 play a role in Lyme and associated co-infection? HHV6 is ubiquitous, can establish a lifelong, latent infection in its host and is known to be a major cause of opportunist viral infection in the immunosuppressed. Certain flavirus, like West Nike have shown to be persistent."
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Bartenderbonnie
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Wait there's more. . .
Please do not discredit persister and biofilms that are keeping us chronically ill.
According to ground-breaking research by Dr Zhang, published on October 11, 2018; Lyme Borrellia biofilms induce Inflamation in mouse model.
"Biofilm forms of Borrellia caused the greatest joint Inflamation in the shortest time. Persister forms express more virulence such as decorin(DNA) binding proteins."
Persister and biofilms in Lyme disease are what keeps Lyme patients sick
Dr H. on persister co-infections at the 30:00 mark on video;
posted
I doubt it was herpes that claimed Vickie Logan's life.
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Keebler
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- It's dangerous to say "yes" to just antibiotics alone and is also dangerous to declare "no" - that no one should ever take antibiotics for lyme.
Some can achieve success with careful use of antibiotics, antiprotozoal Rx, or other Rx that specifically targets the infections on board in a combination / rotation approach.
Not just antibiotics, though, and too many patients are given just one abx, for too short a time and without treatment for the cystic form of lyme, other forms, or for biofilm issues.
When just antibiotics (or worse, just one kind such as just doxycycline) is used, chronic lyme can actually dig in and that creates so much debility and pain because it allows the cystic form to take hold, unaddressed.
Treatment should always be individualized and mult-faceted.
Some can find success with some other kinds of approaches but they must - must - be specific to the infection(s).
Some who seem to have more trouble with some antibiotics may not have good advice on the best ways to have them work with the body, such as key liver & gut support, etc.
Some just might not be able to do antibiotics even with proper protections in place, though, whatever approach, extreme care must be taken to be certain the approach will address specifically and fully each infection in question.
One cannot just ignore lyme because the treatment is too harsh. Yet finding a treatment that is multi-faceted, can rotate and adjust with the patient can take a long time, the best doctors who are good at this are few and far between and not usually covered by any insurance.
Still . . . there is no one way other than the way that will work for individual. Good medicine is what works. And that can vary from one person to the next.
Still, don't discount antibiotics. Many have recovered with their help, too:
EMERGENCE, the followup to documentary: UNDER OUR SKIN
is proof that antibiotics can be essential to some people recovering from lyme, as part of a protocol. Especially Dr. Marx and the nurse - while a long road, they had great success with Rx to address lyme and other distinct infections, too.
For patients with tick-borne diseases, the path to health can be confounding. Combining integrative and conventional approaches may be the best way forward.
. . . What’s more, many of these hard-to-treat patients, like Makris, turn out to have co-infections transmitted by the same black-legged ticks that gave them Lyme — infections that don’t always respond to treatments for Lyme disease itself.
The blood parasite Babesia, for example, must be treated with antimalarial medications.
And, the co-infections Anaplasma and Ehrlichia do not respond to amoxicillin, a first-line antibiotic often used for Lyme.
Even if these and other co-infections are addressed, [Dr. H] says patients can stay sick for many reasons beyond simple infection itself. . . .
The groundbreaking, award-winning investigation into Lyme disease—the science, history, medical politics, and patient experience—now with a new chapter in this edition.
Check author's website for additional updates, research notes..
See all THREE posts here by Pamela Weintraub (who is a LL journalist who recovered from lyme - and write about her entire family dealing with it in "Cure Unknown" book )
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brussels: [QB] Ok Robin, there is no proof of anything that Borrelia 'excites' the herpes...
Herpes is considered a co-infection in lyme today.
Which to my understanding means, that Borrelia allows herpes to activate due to its immunosuppressive character (like Dr. Rawls says).
That is commonly accepted today as the truth.
................................................
Ok, Brussels, the reason I joined this discussion is because for me, there has been no connection between the two, in symptoms or in aggravated herpes breakouts.
I had herpes first, treated it with acyclovir. Then I got Lymed, and didn't have a problem with herpes and never have, since I can just stop outbreaks with the Acyclovir, or, I guess people take Valtrex these days.
Two different infections, two different sets of symptoms.
If I saw a connection, as in more infections, or similar symptoms, I would report it as part of epidemiological testimony.
But no overlap for me personally, and that's all I can say.
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Brussels
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OK Robin, you THINK your herpes zoster or EBV infection just disappeared because you only THINK herpes causes ACUTE infection.
You THINK it belongs to the past.
The ONLY problem, is that all herpes family viruses stay forever in your body and can reactivate at any moment again.
Like Borrelia.
I also say, I'm free of Borrelia (not true, to the letter), but I say that because I THINK Borrelia is dormant, not causing me symptoms.
We all know it can come back - as it did for me.
Not only Borrelia, but the whole lyme circus came back and back again to me, many times.
Same way blood exams will tell little about the STATE of development of chronic infections.
Since Borrelia went dormant 100% for me, I felt fine for a couple of years.
My reserve of energy had been spent greatly during lyme, my hair was grey, I lost a couple of teeth to lyme, etc.
I stopped treatment, and slowly, I continued to loose teeth. Healthy teeth, die from the root.
Infection for sure, but I had no lyme symptom, or whatever apparent disease.
Slowly, I got more tired, very slowly. Then came weight loss, again very slowly. I can only track that after the years, not weeks, or months.
I can say that in 5 years, I lost 3 kg (about 6 pounds).
Then bits of arthritic pains, but NOTHING compared to lyme arthritis. And they did not really spread, more like stayed stuck to one arm.
I then continued with what I thought were candida (chilblains) on skin, just in winter, but every year got better (less long, less painful).
Until I found liposomal Vit C and it was like A LOT was solved: fatigue is almost totally gone, most of the days, the chillblains were zapped off, my hands and feet look like other humans (not black or dark purple anymore), and after about 9-10 months on lipo C, I gained 4 pounds back (2 kg back).
I have herx-like feelings with lipo C. I thought, well, candida. Or I know vit C is a chelator, so I thought, well, this is a chelation effect, that is why I feel I'm slowly herxing.
Borrelia, candida, babesia, etc caused me HORRIBLE herxes, so I considered: well, this is not lyme, for sure, because I know how lyme feels (horrible).
One morning, I got a flash: 'What if the liposomal Vitamin C is not killing viruses?'
Out of nothing, this question was raised in my mind.
Lyme almost killed me LITERALLY.
I even saw the whole SLIDE show of my life in front of me, while I could say mentally goodbye to all family members, as I could not open my eyes anymore (despite being awaken).
It was intuition and an iron-will to live that brought me back.
Lots of intuition, following my gut feeling, tuning my Buhner's herbs, Chinese herbs, loads of essential oils, HUNDREDS of homeopathics, microfrequencies, acupuncture treatments, LITERALLY 60 different treatments a day, many of them done more than once a day...
My day was filled from early morning to night, and in the night I still had electrodes all over me.
This way I got healed, and survived lyme, and what I was suffering in the last 10 years, is just NOTHING compared to lyme hell.
But this little I'm suffering, and the loss of weight, and loss of teeth, and mounting number of food allergies (at a certain point, it got scary, like Lymetutu here in lymenet), well, I knew something was wrong.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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And those morning words in my head 'What if this all is not a virus?'
It made SO MUCH sense to me, WHY is this liposomal Vit C helping me so much, almost like curing all my hardcore problems.
I had read a lot on vitamin C research, and I knew that one thing it did, and did VERY WELL, was to that it fought all acute viral infections like a champion.
If the dose, frequency and form of Vit C is right, no acute viral infection really thrives on high dose vit C.
As I could NEVER take vit C during lyme - because it burned my stomach - the new lipo Vit C I started taking was a first timer.
How can so many symptoms improve, fatigue disappear, even what I thought were candida on skin after 30 years (no kidding, 30 years suffering with this damn skin infection), food allergies are CLEARLY disappearing, etc etc
My dreaming morning brain brought me the answer: what if this was not a virus?
It took me time to remember Anthony William's book that I read some time ago, and suddenly, I connected the dots.
I really dismissed his claims about Borrelia and all herpes family viruses, but NOW, at this moment of my life when I think I no longer have lyme but have lesser symptoms, well, it is making more sense.
What he says about pathogens living in the liver, blocking acids in the stomach, creating all food allergies, IBS, fermentation, etc also fits my problem exactly.
I swear I'm re-reading the whole book again. He's not totally right when he describes diseases etc, but the general explanation seems to make more sense now, specially after all these connections with HHV-6 and lyme (as Steve posted above), then EBV and lyme (exact same symptoms) etc.
Brussels
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If EBV or herpes are responsible for lyme symptoms or not, is not EVEN important.
The 7 important things to retain are:
1- that herpes viruses are the MAIN lyme coinfection, in terms of numbers of infected people, confirmed by blood exams, ...
....more than ANY of the other tick born coinfections we know, like babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia etc...
2- that herpes viruses have an active period of infection where people may feel weak or strong symptoms (like it may feel like a cold, or a very strong flu, or strep throat)...
...but then it goes into a chronic form, without causing many symptoms, or without causing symptoms at all.
3- blood exams are not too reliable (like with lyme and coinfections).
4- all herpes viruses remain in the host forever and may reactivate at any time.
5- the symptoms attributed to herpes family viruses are EXACTLY the same as LYME SYMPTOMS. Almost to the letter.
6 - The EXACT same diseases that are related to lyme like MS, ALS, Alzheimer, fibromyalgia, CFS, multiple allergies, Bells Palsy, thyroid problems, auto immune problems (all sorts), RA, etc are the EXACT diseases related to the chronic form of herpes viruses (if you read more about each of them, HHV6, EBV, zoster, cytomegalie, etc you'll see for yourself)
7- herpes family viruses are extremely immuno-suppressive, and they do not lag behind Borrelia and bartonella.
I think the problem is that the chronic infection part of herpes viruses is less known - like chronic lyme used to be less known in the past.
Once this knowledge will become more widespread, people will start raising questions.
And then, the problem of TREATMENT will come up.
If these chronic viral infections, that are extremely immuno-suppressive, are present side by side with bacterial, protozoal infections,...
.... watch out what you guys do to your immune system (gut microbiota) because viral infections are NOT easy to show up in blood exams, easy to treat with single drugs, and easy to get rid of as you might think, not in its chronic form.
------------------------------- If you haven't read this until the ËND, please do.
It's from dr Rawls, and he said that he did not start to improve UNTIL he addressed chronic immune dysfunctions --
-- it's very different than the USUAL lyme drug approach "do this and that antimicrobial drugs, shoot at any direction, who knows you might get the right critter? and that may heal your lyme disease one day".
Funnily, practically ALL HERBS known to help lyme can be used against herpes family viruses.
Just do a google search (like cats claw, japanese knotweed, etc)
Herbal therapy is very different than antibiotic approach, that will never address both types of infections (bacterial and viral), nor reinforce or modulate your immune system, clean the body, help with pain etc all at the same time like plants do.
Brussels
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Keebler, sorry but at this point, I'm not with you with the rotation that includes DRUGS for the reasons I wrote above: think viruses as THE MAIN lyme coinfection, and you'll get why.
The main bad point on that, is the damaging of bowel flora and extra burden to the liver that is already overwhelmed with lyme toxins.
The myth of adding some ingested probiotics to fix damage of millions of bacteria and hundreds of beneficial strains killed there is a myth, until proven contrary.
Lyme alone adds to toxicity (as you said), and virtually no one will be free of raising immune problems, such as food and chemical allergies, auto immune problems, thyroid problems etc
Adding more toxicity and more destruction of your bowel flora (the main part of your immune system), more than what lyme is already doing, nope, it seems like a counter-productive approach.
Specially because there are SO MANY other cleaner alternatives today, that reinforce the immune system AND clean the body AND heal the gut at the same time.
If the rotation therapy you mention did NOT include damage to the bowel flora, nor increase of drug toxicity to the liver, yep, that would be great.
Once the rotation includes ANYTHING that damages the immune system - like antibiotics and practically all drugs do (due to toxicity)- no,...
... I PERSONALLY consider that a dangerous therapy that will push the patient into MORE chronic dysfunction, more allergies, more auto-immune diseases, more problems with mold, more candida, more viral infections, more liver toxicity, more thyroid dysfunctions like Hashimoto, etc.
In sum, abx and drug therapy (middle or long term) helps to push the patient into more chronic lyme symptoms.
I don't disagree that it solves some acute symptoms of disease, but it ALSO brings more chronic problems (such as chronic lyme, chronic immune dysfunctions), that are much more difficult to treat.
Of course, emergency drug therapy (abx, steroids) can be always a life-saving procedure - specially because our sick medical system refuses to do cleaner therapies such as iv vit C, iv ozone, HBOT, PEMFs, bee venom therapy etc.
But as a middle or long term treatment for lyme, no I'm personally totally against that - I would never ever do that to my own daughter, or recommend it to my family members or closest friends because of its immune-supressive results.
I did that in the past, and I do regret having done that. Today, abx and drugs are at the LAST line of available treatments for me.
In the last 10 years, I only used it once during a trip, when I got an UTI and did not have my herbs.
I haven't used abx not even after taking off 7 teeth (fully infected at the roots and bone) and doing cavitation surgeries (cleaning the bones). My doctor only gave me energetic nosodes.
Now, I know that even sodium bicarbonate stops an UTI if taken at start of symptoms, so I hope I won't need any abx in the next 10 years, not even during trips.
Buhner, who knows how the bacteria behave, is not for that either: he said antibiotics are 'simple' therapies that may be tried (simple in the sense of inefficient, if I understood well), but short term is okay (he NEVER recommends middle or long term antibiotics).
susank
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posted
Very interesting discussion. When first sick I was Dx'd with CFS - EBV titers kept increasing. Also positive HHV6.
Then I got sick again - a different sick. I was Dx'd with Lyme and Co's. Also CVID - immune deficiency was discovered.
Having CVID I should be having lots of colds, flus and resp. infections - but I didn't/don't. Is Lyme "protecting" me from them?
Interesting - after I started Lyme treatment with Abx - I started getting numerous resp. infections.
I had my first cold sore 40 years ago - and it was bad. For whatever reason I haven't had one since. (Did I really have CVID from birth - could that play into it?).
I started BVT (bee venom therapy) some months ago - and low and behold I got a cold sore. Did the venom do what it's said to do? Make dormant infections acute? Bringing them out and also killing them?
(There is a discussion going on / one of the FB Lyme BVT groups about colds, viruses, etc and the immune system - somewhat similar to this discussion - FWIW - also very interesting).
(I had to give up on mHBOT due to my ears).
There are still so many things we don't know.
Reading the above - I think Brussels makes good points. Excellent actually. So thank you Brussels for sharing your research and experiences.
To Robin 123: I assume you still have Lyme Disease? Do you still get cold sores?
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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Brussels
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Thanks for the support, Susan.
I never got cold sores (that I remember), or have I? Oh, in winter, maybe, once, at the lips.
But what I called 'lyme' was already gone, if my memory is good.
I got it in South Korea, and at that time I considered myself lyme-free.
It went out on its own (it means, I harbor it, anyway, one more pathogen to my collection!!)
--------------- CVID is just another label - in my opinion - for what lyme is said to cause.
Lyme or ANY stealth pathogen causing chronic conditions make immune problems worsen.
So does EBV, cytomegalie, HHV6 and their family 'friends'. And HIV.
Also candida is stealth. All these infectious diseases are there due to an immune dysfunction.
Immune problems are at the CENTER of lyme disease. It's not a parallel problem.
Lyme is caused by immune dysfunctions, and lyme causes more immune dysfunctions.
I keep telling people that in the past, I just needed one tick bite to fall ill in bed, and become couch bound for months.
Now ticks bite me, and when they are badly infected, they cause me some symptoms, but they go away very fast.
Same as for my daughter, who got severely ill after being bitten on the head. Now we continue to be bitten, and no more wheel chairs, no more encephalitis, no more lyme!
Now Dr Rawls says that openly too: if he had not addressed immune dysfunctions, he would be still sick with lyme disease.
He SAYS that. Which means, lyme is an immune system dysfunction disease, caused by it, and causing it to become worse!
The only way out, is to fix immune dysfunction.
People think that staying away from ticks will avoid falling ill again with lyme.
It's just a false belief.
Herpes and candida are living inside us, all of us, no one is free from them, and can be reactivated any time.
You don't need a tick bite for that.
We in the lyme community are only concentrating on ticks, on BACTERIAL INFECTIONS, but the problem is already inside us - the faulty immune system which can cause ANY pathogen to awaken, be it bacterial, fungal or viral.
Even parasites are thought to colonize us due to immune dysfunction.
Why has it got messed up?
I think most immune problems can be solved, but it's never too easy, once it became chronic.
Like dr Rawls said, you got to attack 5 points:
- your diet (faulty diet) - physical triggers (lack of exercise, lack of sunlight, accidents, etc) - psycho triggers (stress, sadness, trauma, social stress...). - pathogens - toxins
I also believe this is the only way out.
But when attacking pathogens, do not add more toxins to your liver, and do not make your immune system weaker.
-------------------- I think bee venom is a therapy that kills pathogens (broad spectrum), awakens the immune system and is anti inflammatory.
But I don't believe on mono therapy. I see them as a support.
Maybe it works as solo therapy for some people that are less sick or that have less problems (even if they almost died, it could be that they were affected by fewer problems, like one bad acute infection?)...
.. but I think diet, toxins, phsycho therapies ALSO play an essential role in immune dysfunctions.
I hope you find your way out, Susan!
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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To Susan - thx for asking - I had Lyme for 25 years before it was discovered, so it's not going away - I manage it.
Acyclovir knocks out any herpes infection. It's more about avoiding triggers, like no hot spicy food, unfortunately - that's a trigger. Many people today take Valtrex.
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susank
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I wonder about my Lyme and CVID Dx coming around the same time.
I did the vaccine challenge. Passed HiB. Failed Pneumovax. (didn't respond). To me that meant - and solidified - that I have had CVID since birth - just didn't know it.
Weird though. I looked at old bloodwork. Before Lyme my globulins and A/G ratio were normal. (from chem panel). Around the time I was getting sicker - felt it was something different than EBV - more symptoms - all worse - my Globs and A/G became abnormal. A clue to immune deficiency.
There is also the HLA DR DQ (susceptibility) aspect. I did the test. Results said I was in group that was Lyme and mold susceptible.
Do I think HSV/EBV causes Lyme Disease? No. Not directly. Certainly something is going on with the viruses, bacteria and our immune systems creating a perfect storm.
I don't think Abx is the best treatment for Lyme and Co's.
IMHO our best chances are with mHBOT (making our bodies "undesirable" for the bugs). And BVT - which also seems to work on viruses and bacteria - the venom pushing the pathogens out of hiding and killing them.
Brussels I don't remember how you healed from Lyme. Homeopathy? Nosodes?
Robin - I took Acyclovir years ago as IIRC it was hoped would help with EBV as well HSV. I doubt I could tolerate it now. I don't seem to tolerate such things as I could many years ago.
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
I sincerely think Robin and Susan would profit from doing the following homework: reading about chronic STEALTH infections with accent to herpes family viruses.
That means not only CHRONIC EBV, but ALSO chronic HHV6, chronic cytomegalovirus, HSV1 and HSV 2 (simplex), H. zoster and HHV7.
It's wrong to assume that Valtrex or ANY antivirus is the answer for CHRONIC infections.
Otherwise, they WOULDN'T become chronic NOR be called STEALTH infections.
What you talk about is ONLY about the acute phase of herpes, not the latent or chronic disease.
What you say above means that you have no IDEA about how a chronic viral infection acts, what symptoms they could cause, and what treatments would affect them - CERTAINLY these are not antivirals.
I find it amazing how people with lyme ONLY think that there is ONE or a couple of stealth infections, and all are TICK RELATED only.
I'll change the title to 'Does herpes cause lyme symptoms?', and maybe my point would be clearer...
The answer is 'yes' if you go check the symptom list for CHRONIC herpes family viruses, NOT ACUTE like you are both doing.
And Susan, with that comment on genetic problems (CVID), I don't know what can you do with that information in your hands.
I sincerely find it a loss of time to look for genetic problems.
Not only because doctors will then entitle to say 'you are guilty with your faulty genes, that is why my treatment is not working with you'....
... but because it sends a bad message to your mental field - that accepts to be ill forever due to bad luck (got the bad genes from SO...).
I'm really for epigenetics and Bruce Lipton, Ben Lynch, Robert Naviaux, that think genes can be changed, activated or inactivated, depending on your life style, choices, diet etc.
There is a whole research out there proving to you that genetic 'defect' is a disease, that is treatable, and not a 'death' sentence that you'll carry for life.
Even if you were born with it, gene expression can still be changed (in most cases).
I think soon all these genetic tests trends will be outdated.
Ben Lynch, who wrote Dirty Genes, does not even recommend any genetic test. He says it's a loss of money and bad results will not bring you much in front, healthwise.
He though talks about all common genetic problems, but using epigenetics as a background. Quite interesting, I find.
Here in Europe, very few people would test for such genetic 'errors'. At least, not in the German-speaking countries, I rarely see talks about that...
I guess it's more a trend in the anglo-saxon world.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- you state: "I find it amazing how people with lyme ONLY think that there is ONE or a couple of stealth infections, and all are TICK RELATED only." (end quote)
First, This is not true, this has never been true of most who learn about lyme and all that entails. Folks new to lyme soon learn of the complexities.
Second, Please do not insult people with lyme with such a generalization - that is just not a correct view, actually.
I've never seen a group more engaged, curious and willing to study than those with the misfortune to have contracted lyme & all that goes with it, especially since it can differ from each patient and many have to figure out much on their own.
For decades, ILADS LLMDs have always said it's complex. ILADS conferences for decades have included various other kinds of chronic conditions and chronic infections in their presentations. Every year, every conference.
Yet, it is also vital to keep up on all the new science about lyme, itself for that can be a mighty foe, even if it's not the only player.
Also - for decades - there has been inclusion for complementary treatments, too, either in combination or during times of rotations, etc.
And there have often been presentations about those, too, with inclusion as to helping the body manage various kinds of treatment paths.
Most ILADS minded LLMD and LL NDs, in article, blogs and books consider a wide range of influences, not just lyme - though, again, lyme can't be left in the dust, either.
Lyme CAUSES immune dysfunction, very often. So even if a person does not have immune issues prior to contracting lyme, the Bb infection - itself - can cause immune damage / "flipping" the way the immune system is supposed to work
as Bb's various forms are capable of evading immune detection.
Bb absolutely must still be vigorously assessed / addressed by various methods strong enough to work, long enough - or rotated & combos changed over time - long enough to work along with other methods and attention all other players
on an individual basis as per needs of each patient.
And for those who have to learn so much on their own: "Cheers" to your courage to persevere and learn all you can
from a variety of top, educated and experienced professionals as those who give the presentations, write the blogs and books . . . to see what rings a bell for you at various points in time.; -
[ 01-14-2019, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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susank
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22150
posted
Brussels - quick reply for now. I did the HLA DR DQ testing after I got so many IND's on my Igenex tests. And no bands ever on Labcorp and Quest.
We suspected I had Lyme - and I asked to do the test HLA. The results helped me believe I might really have Lyme. I fit the profile.
The positive test on the culture test finally confirmed it. (if that test is to be trusted).
What I find so interesting about BVT is the venom making the latent viruses - amongst other things - acute - come out of hiding - to be killed - if in fact the venom can do it. I think it can.
Not having had a cold sore for decades - then starting BVT and breaking out with one - as has happened with other BVT'ers - gotta wonder.
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
Dr K used to say BVT is a very wide antimicrobial.
There are few natural products that are so widespectrum as BVT.
One is propolis (but less strong than bee venom, also known to fight viruses well), needs to be taken long term, in my opinion...
... the other is raw garlic (allicin), that is also an amazing potent very wide spectrum killer (even some parasites will be hit).
Dr. K sells the frozen garlic version that is very potent. I used it often during lyme. It's also a potent antiviral.
I like to eat homemade kimchi with LOADS of garlic, I find it's nourishing, tasty while its probiotics also help kill like hell. I think kimchi is even stronger than frozen garlic, probably because of the double wham effect (with probiotics)?
Propolis also kills mold, when put in air vaporizers.
It's funny you say your viral infection woke up with BVT. When the immune system starts functioning, it will go after many dormant pathogens, and the person will become symptomatic.
But it lasts short term, if you're on the good path (good treatment), because the body is able to contain the infection (as it can't hide anymore).
Then the body goes look for next victims, if the immune system is working, and you get another sort of active spot with inflammation, and so on...
If you start liposomal Vit C, you'll have the same happening to you.
Many dormant infections may somehow show up, it's probably because lipo C goes inside the cells and pushes out intracell pathogens... which is a good sign, I find, specially if the infection / inflammation solves within a reasonable short time, mostly on its own.
It's the only way out: cleaning layers and layers of active and dormant infections, lowering the load of pathogens AND TOXINS, until the body will be able to handle anything on its own.
I forgot to answer your question: I did start with Buhner's herbs coupled with Chinese herbs, then did dr K's therapy at the SAME time (with some Cowden), cleaned my teeth, ...
....heavy metal detox, mental detox, microcurrent, an incredible amount of homeopathics for support (detox, symptom management), some parasite treatment,...
... then finally found infrared therapy (photons with nosodes) and that marked the end of my active lyme.
I stopped all 'lyme' treatments for the last 9.5 years.
Lyme left me with grey hair, lost teeth (they continued to weaken after it was gone, losing one tooth every 2 years or so), few food allergies (but that increased slowly with the years after lyme), ...
...no more joint pains (but after about 5, 6 years, I started having bits of joint pains, here and there, nothing bad so far), and in the last 5 years, lost of weight (slow but sure).
I don't call that lyme, but the theory of low grade infections causing these mild symptoms seem pertinent.
I was getting more fatigued, probably due to extreme low weight, more food allergies, etc.
Liposomal C stopped that for me. I'm gaining weight again, food allergies are receding, joint pain stopped progressing...
That's when I had the impression Lipo C was not only cleaning toxins, but actually, was killing viruses (or pathogens).
I have herxes with Lipo C, need chlorella + bear garlic to stop herxes, the same way I needed during active lyme.
The fact that so many people react well with lipo C for such an amount of problems make me wonder if we are not all fighting some sort of chronic infection. It makes sense to me.
Whatever you use that is widespectrum is best.
I did not know that cats claw is an excellent antiviral and also somehow widespectrum, as it also fights bacteria. I felt very good with cats claw, that I took for 2 years, non stop.
It did not solve lyme, but it helped me, no doubt.
I wish you good luck with BVT!!
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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