posted
***Skip to bottom for video + timestamps. I would REALLY appreciate if people could weigh in on what they see / ID the microbes. I plan on showing this video to an ID doc but am not sure if they will even acknowledge the clinical relevance since MDs don't utilize live blood microscopy for some mysterious reason***
Background: diagnosed with LD in 2009. Went to a myriad of doctors including IM, ID, neuro, oncologist, etc. without any diagnosis. Found an LLMD and had an Igenex WB done; 4-5 bands came back pos+ or ind. Also a *conventional* standard bartonella test came back positive. Did oral abx on and off for +-9 months. Never well since...
Fast forward to 2019, I was attending ND school in Toronto and discovered "live blood microscopy" at a health & wellness expo. Got it done on the spot and then 2 times subsequently. Including a video of one of my visits (see link at end of post).
I had to take a gap year from the ND program last spring because of deteriorating condition. I am normally very thin (140ish lbs and 6'2" tall), but lost an additional 10 lbs unintentionally (same diet).
I just went to my doc this week, she was seriously concerned about me, esp. how thin I got (BMI). Current symptoms: low weight, cold sensitivity, eye pain in R eye, new vision changes (seeing ghost images at night). Also I did not mention to her that I've had brain fog, memories issues and been stuttering more often.
She ran a bunch of blood work including to check for STIs, thyroid, liver and kidney. Neg for any infections and all values in normal range except Alkaline Phosphatase which was 44 when the normal range is 46 - 116.
I went back to the live blood microscopy video and identified several microorganisms in my blood. I have a 4th year MD student friend who agreed there are things swimming around that should not be there.
I was wondering if anyone with experience at IDing microbes could watch the video and weigh in. What I noticed were: -spirochetes and also a worm-like organisms which could also be a spirochete -the "pearl necklace" phenomenon surrounding a cell -definite babesia, both swimming around in the plasma and also intracellular.
Here are timestamps for what I observed: @14 seconds, 2 cells with intracellular babesia @35 seconds, another cell w/ ^
@57 seconds you can watch a babesia in the top right corner swim around in the plasma for several seconds and then drift to the right @5:46, 6:05: babesia inside cell
@6:15, 6:19: unknown white object inside cells @7:05-7:15 you can clearly see a corkscrew-shaped spirochete attached to a cell
@8:08,9:04: a long, thready "worm" wiggles its way across the screen (not sure if it's a parasitic worm or borrelia)
Bartenderbonnie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 49177
posted
I see exactly what you are seeing. I am not an expert at reading slides though.
But I know someone who is and posts on The Microscopy Thread here on LymeNet.
His name is Garz. You could private message him through The Microscopy Thread. There are others on the same thread that you could private message also. I only mention to private message them because most stop by LymeNet periodically.
There are 21 pages on The Microscopy Thread so I posted the most recent replies below.
posted
So helpful @Bartenderbonnie, I didn't know there was a microscopy thread. Thx ! I posted there and will reach out to others ~
Posts: 30 | From USA | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
posted
@14 seconds, 2 cells with intracellular babesia G, certainly look suspect but not possible to identify from live blood microscopy -
could be babesia, bartonella vacuoles (i note cell outline is disrupted also a poss sign of bart) could even be something attached to the outside of the cells - very hard to tell on live blood slides -
and without staining to show different colours for different organisms - eg Giemsa thin blood smears
@35 seconds, another cell w/ ^G, as per above @57 seconds you can watch a babesia in the top right corner swim around in the plasma for several seconds and then drift to the right
G, everything smaller than a red blood cell will appear to move around randomly as if it were swimming under its own power -
but is in fact just Brownian motion caused by the movement of the molecules in the liquid moving and thereby moving any suspended particles around -
it often looks exactly like a single celled organism swimming around - but is not possible to differentiate reliably with live blood slides - as everything this size moves anyway.
as a result we can only guess what these things might be. platelets, bits of red blood cell debris, other artefacts, vesicles, bacteria, bits of cellular membrane etc
@5:46, 6:05: babesia inside cell G, again suspect intracellular object - same comments as per 14s - again defect in red cell membrane can be seen increasing probability that it is indeed intracellular - ie has entered through the membrane leaving a depression / distortion
@6:15, 6:19: unknown white object inside cells G, the bright white bar like object - cannot identify - may not be inside the cell - things that do not move with the cell can be on the slide -or attached to the outside -
many artefacts that are not infection can be seem on most slides I have looked at - there will always be unidentified objects in blood slides -
the uninitiated are often too quick to positively identify something when there is in reality far less certainty - i would not be concerned with it unless many of the same form show up.
@7:05-7:15 you can clearly see a corkscrew-shaped spirochete attached to a cell
G, something suspect does appear to be attached to a red blood cell - but i would say it more looped or crumpled ring shaped - could be a spirochete - but is not moving -
could also be just cellular debris - or a remnants of a ruptured red blood cell that has lost its contents and collapsed
@8:08,9:04: a long, thready "worm" wiggles its way across the screen (not sure if it's a parasitic worm or borrelia)
G, far too small to be a nematode worm - could be a spirochete - but be aware that there are naturally things in the blood which also look exactly like this -
papers have been published explaining exactly what they are with PCR analysis - typically bits of host cellular membranes debris that are moving with Brownian motion
overall though from this first look i would have a strong suspicion of Babesia or bartonella - not possible to identify which without staining as the light coloured circles seen could be Babesia which would show up pink with stain - or clear vacuoles which would be transparent with stain
i did see a pattern typically associated with bartonella in other areas of the slides - rings of small ( approx 1uM across ) circles inside red blood cells - often with distorted red blood cell outer membrane - which fits with your conventional bart test -
typically low sensitivity but high specificity so i think you can be pretty certain of that. see 17:11 for example
it may well be worth having some giemsa thin blood smears done - as these will help identify Babesia
borrelia are rarely found in the blood so its less useful for that - but you will find lots of people who believe they can diagnose it with darkfield - but recommend reading the paper i mentioned before forming an opinion on that
you may wish to read more on my own microscopy experiments - in the thread here
posted
Garz, thank you for your reply, of great help. Can I ask, what would I request of a conventional MD or ID doctor to differentiate between babesia vs bartonella? Would I ask for a Giemsa smear? I don't have an "LLMD" to work with at this time. There's obviously something in my blood.
Posts: 30 | From USA | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
posted
you could ask a conventional ID doctor to do a Giemsa stained thin blood smear for babesia - same technique as is used for malaria. however there are some provisos you should know about
1, most ID doctors have been miseducated about all of these infectious diseases and believe things that are demonstrably not true according to more recent medical research
-that these are self resolving infections - unless the host has conventional medicine defined immunosuppression via drugs, AIDS or is splenectomised
-that serological based tests can be used to rule these infections out - even if clear anomalies can be seen on blood smears
- even if a diagnosis were accepted - they are not familiar with appropriate treatment protocols and will typically assume a short coarse of this abx or this antimalarial will resolve the infection.
2, bartonella very rarely presents with widespread bacteraemia in the blood - instead it typically presents with clumps of infected red blood cells which may be in as few as 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 slides -
no conventional lab will look at 10-20 slides - typically only 1 or 2 max - hence likelihood is they will miss bartonella
3, in addition, conventional labs are not familiar with the presentation of bartonella in blood smears - see this presentation from galaxy diagnostics labs https://www.galaxydx.com/webinar/
- or my microscopy thread linked above to see what it typically looks like - conventional labs are taught its too small to see - and do not know to look for vacuoles in red blood cells - despite this being in the more modern literature.
4, Babesia infected red blood cells does seem to be more homogenously mixed in the blood cell population - i.e. not in isolated clumps as in bartonella -
but infection rates may be as low as 1 in 1000 red blood cells in chronic patients - again making it often impossible to find even by correct giemsa staining and methods - resulting in false negatives.
if a low level of suspect items are seen in slides ID doctors may also attempt to identify or rule out infection by using serologic methods and mistakenly favour these as definitive results over microscopy.
again leading to false negatives as there are known to be 100's of species of Babesia organisms - and serological based tests for only 2 of them.
i know this is not quite what you want to hear - but i wanted to try and save you the disappointment that sufferers typically find when trying to get treatment via conventional ID doctors and highlight some of the challenges you may face while attempting this path, so you may be better prepared.
you could find an unusually open and progressive ID doctor - and i hope you do - but they will be going against their training and so are a very rare find
as an example i have been to 3 highly respected conventional ID doctors - none of them found bartonella - only one accepted they did not have good tests for it.
i know it seems logical that if they can see organisms in your blood they must agree there is an infection and treat it properly - but for the reasons stated above its rarely as simple as that.
ultimately, if conventional ID doctors recognised and properly treated these diseases - forums like this one would not exist.
just go in prepared - and do please let us know how you get on
(breaking up the post for easier reading for many)
[ 03-08-2022, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: Robin123 ]
Posts: 245 | From UK | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
posted
@Garz you are an outstanding source of knowledge. I appreciate your time and words greatly ! Will keep your advice in mind as I move forward trying to navigate this. Will post updates ~
Posts: 30 | From USA | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
posted
Amazing info, Garz. Question - I broke up the text for easier reading for many but don't know what G is referring to - ?
Posts: 13116 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
i am just investigating and researching all of this stuff as a means to getting myself well like so many people here - but happy to pass along anything i can to help others in a similar position along the way.
Robin - I used "G" as short for Garzie - just as a way to differentiate my reply comments from the original posters comments.
thanks for spacing the text
Posts: 245 | From UK | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic