emla999/Lyme
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posted
I would like to know if anyone here on Lymenet is following or has incorporated some of Dr. Ray Peat's or Matt Stone's suggestions into their chronic Lyme Disease treatment protocol?? If so, has following their advice helped you in anyway?
As for me personally, I have seen tremendous improvement in my health as a result of incorporating some of Dr. Peat's and Matt Stone's suggestions into my chronic Lyme/coinfection/toxic mold protocol. Actually, my current protocol is based primarily on their research. And I also know of a few more people with chronic Lyme Disease that have also saw improvements in their health when they started to incorporate some of Dr. Peat's and Matt's suggestions.
So, is anyone here follwing Dr. Peat and Matt Stone's protocols/suggestions??
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CD57
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Hey Emla....interesting....we were just talking about this (sort of) on another thread. See my "Felt better at altitude" post. I am going to look into this.
Can you post how you have seen improvement?
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CD57
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posted
How do we find about more about this, do you have any links?
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emla999/Lyme
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posted
The Ray Peat forum is probably one of the best place to learn about his protocol.
And you can read more about Matt Stone's protocol/research in his ebook entitled "Eat for Heat". Matt's incorporates some of Ray's research into his protocol.
emla999/Lyme
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What health improvements have I seen following some of Dr. Ray Peat and Matt Stone's protocol/suggestions?
Well, I have seen a SIGNIFICANT improvement in my health problems!!!! The difference is night and day.
For more than 10 years I have had numerous health problems, profound fatigue, brain fog, cold hands and feet, frequent urination, painful cracking joints, nerve pain, neuropathy, vision problems tremors, muscle twitching, trouble sleeping and a few other problems. And I was diagnosed as having possible MS and at one point one of my doctor's thought that I may have had ALS...... so my health problems have been rather severe at certain points in my life.
I was diagnosed as having chronic Lyme Disease about 5 1/2 years ago and I was told by my doctor that I had Lyme Disease (I had a positive Igenex test) and possible coinfections were the cause of my health problems. And a few years before the Lyme Disease diagnosis a medical doctor run the Dr.Shoemaker mold panel tests on me and I was told that toxic mold was what was causing my health problems. And even prior to the toxic mold diagnosis another medical doctor also tested me for heavy metals and then I was told by that doctor that my heavy metal levels were high and that was the cause of my health problems. Candida was another thing that I was diagnosed as having so.
I have also tested postive and/or have been told that I have various mycotoxins, various viruses and various co-infections were the cause of my health problems. And for nearly a decade I was treated for all of those coditions that I listed above by various alternative doctors, an LLMD and a toxic mold practitioner and for the most part I saw very little improvement from those therapies.
But when I started to incorporate some of Matt's Dr. Peat's protocol/suggestions into my life many of those health problems such as the profound fatigue, brain fog, cold hands and feet, frequent urination, painful cracking joints, nerve pain, neuropathy, vision problems tremors, muscle twitching, trouble sleeping all improved.
And I am now sharing this in hopes that other may also find Dr. Peat's and Matt's protocols helpful
posted
I am reading his article on coconut oil. Why does he not provide sources/footnotes on his material? I am so weary of reading work that does not reference it's sources.
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CD57
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My goodness that is quite a story! Can you please tell us more? Thank you!
I am also unable to find links to these guys talking about Lyme protocols. could you help?
Does this mean that you did abx and herbs etc for Lyme, cos, mold etc to no avail?
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emla999/Lyme
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Yes, for years and years I took numerous herbs, antibiotics, anti-parasite meds, anti- fungal meds, binders, sauna therapy, chelators, dietary supplements, various lyme and anti-fungal diets. And for the most part, none of it helped me at all. But when I started to follow the advice of Dr. Ray Peat and Matt Stone my improvements came fairly quickly and I feel much better now.
Also, Dr. Ray Peat and Matt Stone's protocols are not specific for Lyme Disease. But rather their protocols are designed to return the body's metabolism and the blood chemistry of a chronically ill patient to normal. So, in essence, their protocols can change the body's "internal terrain".
So, how do their protocols relate to the treatment of chronic Lyme Disease, co-infections and to other chronic illnesses such as fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue?
Well, from what I understand, Dr. Ray Peat and Matt Stone seem to think that a lowered body metabolism and imbalances in the blood chemistry (things such as hormone imbalances, electrolyte imbalances, water imbalance, CO2 production and etc.) can weaken the immune system so that our bodies are much more susceptible to the effects of Lyme Disease and all of the other co-infections. When you have a low metabolism your body just will not function normally and your body cannot adequately fight off Lyme Disease.
And they also seem to think that a lowered body metabolism and blood chemistry imbalances may have already existed prior to when a person contracted Lyme Disease or a coinfection.
And it was that prexisting lowered body metabolism and blood chemistry imbalnces that actually caused your body not be able adequately fight off Lyme Disease and coinfections from the get go. And that inadequate immune system response to those acute infections may have caused the infections to become chronic.
So, an ongoing and continously low body metabolism and blood chemistry imbalances may be the reason that your body can not adequately heal from chronic Lyme Disease and the various co-infections.
And therefore, unless you address this ongoing and continously lowered body metabolism and blood chemistry imbalances you may never be able to cure yourself of chronic Lyme Disease and the other co-infections.
Someone else that has chronic Lyme Disease and is also following some of Ray Peats's and Matt Stone's suggestions explained it to me this way.
"Despite being exposed to tick-bites, some people never get Lyme. So there's some distinguishing feature between those who get sick and those who don't. This would be the aforementioned metabolism, which protects you."
So, in my opinion, if you have been diagnosed with chronic Lyme Disease, one or more of it's co-infections or toxic mold but are not seeing much in the way of improvement then you may want to incorporate some of Dr. Ray Peat's and Matt Stone's suggestions into your current protocol.
posted
How are you defining "low metabolism" and how is it addressed?
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emla999/Lyme
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VV,
Dr. Ray Peat and Matt Stone would determine if you had low metabolism by a few ways.
If you are hypothyroid then you certainly have a low metabolism. If either the free T3 and free T4 thyroid hormones are low then you have a low metabolism. If your TSH is high then you have a low metabolism. If your RT3/T3 ratio is out of balance then you may have a low metabolism.
Having a basal body temperature bellow 97.8 is also a fairly good indicator that you have low metabolism. And having a daily body temperature bellow 98.6 is a pretty good indicator that you have a low metabolism.
Though, you can still have a low metabolism and still have a normal body temperature because your body can be producing too much of the stress hormone adrenaline..... adrenaline can raise your body temperature.
If you frequently have cold hands and feet then your metabolism is probably low. Frequent urination could also be an indication that your body metabolism is low.
emla999/Lyme
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posted
VV said,
quote: I am reading his article on coconut oil. Why does he not provide sources/footnotes on his material? I am so weary of reading work that does not reference it's sources.
Dr. Ray Peat usually provides source refrences to most of his articles. But if you want to see the refrences for a particular article that he didn't provide refrences to then you could try contacting him.
posted
Thank you for sharing this information. How do you go about raising your metabolism if it's low?
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emla999/Lyme
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Birdie67,
Well, unfortunately, this answer would be rather long but I will list a few things that Dr. Peat and Matt Stone might recommend for helping raising the body metabolism.
But first, Matt Stone's ebook entitled "Eat for Heat" is entirely about what to eat and drink to raise your metabolism and body temperature.
And generally speaking you can often eat and drink in a way that will increase your body metabolism and your body temperature by eating more salt, white sugar and fully saturated fats. Yes, I said white sugar. Sugar isn't this "evil" substance that some people are making it out to be.
A few other things that you can do to raise your body's metabolism.
You may need to take thyroid med such as Armour. Or in some cases a T3 only thyroid med.
You may also need to drink alot less water/fluids than you were previously drinking. Being overlyhydrated may lower your metabolism . ****** Drinking alot less water and fluids of all types was probably the single most helpful thing that I done for my health.
A refractometer is very useful in determining whether or not you are drinking to much water/fluids
You should also rather strictly avoid eating polyunsturated fatty acids PUFA's...... including fish oil. PUFA's lower thyroid function and therefore eating PUFA's can lower your metabolism and body temperature.
Get plenty of sleep and try to reduce your exposure to stress as much as possible.
You might need to eat some gelatin.
You may also need to remove bacterial endotoxins from your body. According to Dr. Peat, eating a daily carrot salad can remove bacterial endoxtins.
And you may also need to lower your serotonin levels. Serotonin is not as wonderful as some people claim.
It is very bothersome to me to see certain parameters of the normal protocol flipped 180�.
Low sugar, lots of water and Omega 3's are a staple of most plans. It creates a lot of inner stress to hear recommendations to the opposite extreme.
I also feel a bit put off by the idea that such a debilitating disease such as Lyme could be fixed with these changes along with a daily carrot salad.
I feel as though someone comes along here and there that "flips conventional wisdom on it's head" simply by suggesting things that are contrary to the prevailing opinion, not necessarily because they have merit.
Just a cursory look at his forum, it seems that he does a 180� on candida wisdom as well. He says GSE and Oregano oil and low sugar diets are bad and make the candida grow and become invasive.
I'm sorry to be so critical, but I am very skeptical. Maybe this does work for some people, but the extreme reversals smack more of psychological baiting than real answers.
Also, I did go down the path of evaluating the thyroid by numerous docs and specialists. The issue I have is high RT3, which some docs will prescribe T3 only for, but is really not the answer for those of us with chronic infections.
High RT3 is CAUSED BY infection. The infection needs to be treated first. Giving T3 only can shut down the thyroid permanently which is not desirable for someone who has adequate T3 levels (on the high side, but still in range).
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CD57
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so Emla, did you add thyroid hormone and progesterone to get better? what worked to help you?
What might they say for the Lyme patients who are already taking this and have been for a long time?
Without question I think the hormonal landscape has someting to do with this. However I think a lot of us address this already. I will look at it more, thanks!
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I was bitten by a tick while hiking, and got a fever and fell sick a month later. After that, I was steadily going downhill, getting sicker. Tried a whole lot of supplements. Then, I got a Western Blot from IGeneX with a partial response.
One of the many things I had tried when I was sick was Fish oil. It worked great in the beginning, making me feel better, but it gradually stopped working and I began to get negative effects from it immediately, probably due to lipid peroxidation.
At this point, I went looking, and pretty much the only person who was opposed to fish oil was Ray Peat. So I decided to give his theory a try and avoid fish oil as well as other PUFAs(Omega-6 and Omega-3).
I was still skeptical, so I didn't follow any of his other advice.
Around the same time, I went to an LLMD and did the whole antibiotics and herbals thing, I was helped quite a bit, my brain fog disappeared. But then the abx stopped improving my condition and my LLMD didn't seem to have any good ideas.
So I decided to give Ray Peat a try. The very first thing I decided to try was the T3 supplementation. I did some research and found that bodybuilders use T3 in fairly large doses and that doesn't result in thyroid shut down, it recovers in a few days after you stop the T3. I stuck to the starch instead of sugar since I didn't trust Peat 100%. T3 brought my temperature up, and I improved a lot. I slowly dropped most of my supplements because they just stopped working.
Then I decided to go in for the sugar. I started eating a fair bit of sugar alongside starch and it made a huge difference to my state of mind. My mind is far clearer than it used to be.
Even more recently I started eating a lot of salt and reduced my fluids somewhat (a la Matt Stone) and I feel soo much better. The refractometer is a great guide for this.
I believe I still have some hormonal issues, but I'm way better than I used to be. I think these ideas are quite amazing and I agree with every one of emla999's recommendations.
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posted
PS: I was pretty sick for a while, so I may not remember the exact steps I took to getting better. But it's been a long road, and I am definitely better.
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beaches
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This is all very intriguing.
Fish oil is good for inflammation and the heart, so I don't understand how/why this would hurt people. Could it be the brand/type of fish oil that is questionable?
Boatloads of sugar are found in so many processed foods. Regular sugar is devoid of nutrients and overprocessed so I can't see how more of it would be good. When they say increase sugar, do they mean eating more processed foods or just adding a bit more sugar to the diet, say in the form of raw sugar?
As for the salt, I personally don't believe in low salt diets myself and think that the stuff like Morton's can do more harm than good. I think kosher salt and sea salt especially can be good for you. So when they say to increase the salt, which salt are they talking about?
As for the water intake, what do they think is optimal? I love water and drink it all day. Are they referring to tap water or bottled? Do they distinguish between plain water vs lemon water?
I know, so many questions. Not expecting you to reply to all this emla, as I have not read up on this myself. Just wanted to point out that the devil is in the details.
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emla999/Lyme
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Reverse T3 can also be caused by things such as high cortisol and adrenaline production. And that is why Dr. Ray Peat and Matt Stone recommend eating sugar, salt and gelatin because sugar, salt and gelatin can be helpful in lowering cortisol and adrenaline production. And therefore, eating more sugar, salt, and gelatin can lower RT3. Drinking alot of water can dilute the sodium in your blood (hyponatremia) and therfore drinking to much water may also negatively effect your hormone and thyroid production. And therefore drinking alot of water/fluids can cause low metabolism to occur.
VV, you said, that "Low sugar, lots of water and Omega 3's are a staple of most plans."
And that is probably part of the reason why you rarely hear of anyone being cured of chronic Lyme Disease, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, toxic mold syndrome and etc. Many of those people are eating in a way that can lower their metabolism and negatively effect their body chemistry.
Eating a diet that is low in sugar, low in salt, and high in the polyunsaturated fatty acids Omega 3/Omega 6 oils while also drinking alot of water/fluids are probably causing a lowering of their metabolism and causing imbalances in their blood chemistry e.g. mild hyponatremia.
And in regards to candida and sugar, yes, according to Dr. Ray Peat eating sugar is actually beneficial to someone that has an overgrowth of candida in the long run.
I was also diagnosed as having candida and I took various anti-fungal meds and various herbs and I also completely stopped eating white sugar and I ate a low carb type diet that was high in watery low sugar content vegetables. And as a result I just felt worse.
But when I took Ray Peat's advice and started to eat more sugar as a way to control candida overgrowth I started to feel worse at first but then I started to feel better. And I now eat regular white table sugar everyday. And I feel alot better as a result.
At the 81:10 mark on the link down bellow, Dr. Ray Peat begins talking about eating sugar and Candida. It starts getting very interesting at the 82:40 mark.
"Ray Peat says that eliminating candida is a fallacy. The best way to deal with candida is feed them sugar (orange juice) to keep them happy. Aggravated candida (sugar deprived) will cause you problems. Happy candida = Happy stomach. Speeding up the metabolism also keeps them in check."
posted
"Ray Peat says that eliminating candida is a fallacy. The best way to deal with candida is feed them sugar (orange juice) to keep them happy. Aggravated candida (sugar deprived) will cause you problems. Happy candida = Happy stomach. Speeding up the metabolism also keeps them in check."
--
And I have ocean front property for sale in Arizona.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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- he avoids most vegetables due to their intrinsic (defensive) toxins. He occasionally makes leaf broth for some extra minerals, but usually prefers for a cow to process them for him. Mainly he thinks of them as condiments.
- he avoids all other above-ground vegetables, including greens and many herbs (basil, etc) due to toxins (even if cooked) that far outweigh the benefits.
- he doesn't eat fruits with seeds that can't be avoided (berries, figs, etc) because while the antioxidants are good, the benefits are less than the toxins in the seeds. Other fruits like peaches, plums, apples, etc should only be eaten if organic and tree-ripened; otherwise they have very powerful toxins (if unripe or shelf-ripened) that can cause gut damage. Melons, cherries, and citrus are the best fruits.
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"Just washing the skin with pure soap alters the skin's endocrine function for days, and doing it every day is an 'endocrine disruptor,' even if there are no toxic additives in the soap."
???
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"Just washing the skin with pure soap alters the skin's endocrine function for days, and doing it every day is an 'endocrine disruptor,' even if there are no toxic additives in the soap."
???
Believe it or not, it's possible to get clean without using shampoo.
posted
And what's next, no toothbrush and no wiping?
Rejecting norms seems new and exciting, but it's not always progress.
I'm a bit put off by someone who thinks eating almost no vegetables and not using soap are keys to optimal health.
It just sounds ridiculous, and almost every idea associated with his name bears this characteristic.
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posted
Sometimes it's useful to reject norms. If your skin is fine (and not super greasy) without using soap, and you don't smell bad, why do you need to use soap? (Private parts and such excepted)
You bring up a good point. Someone once said: "It AIN'T so much the things we don't know that get us into trouble. It's the things we know that just ain't so."
It's very hard for me to convince you of this, you have to convince yourself that somehow a lot of health advice got turned around.
You also don't have to buy into all of it at once. You might perhaps start with one of the ideas and see if that helps. Drink less water sounds fairly simple, and might be worth a shot for instance.
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phyl6648
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posted
So interesting but I am having a hard time finding info. and processing all this.. Could someone break it down for me..
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posted
Despite it's reputation, Coca Cola contains coca extract. Chewing Coca leaves and tea are used for energy in Peru and other South American countries.
gigimac
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posted
To each his own, but if I eat a lot of sugar I have a huge flare and it's not good!
How is coca cola energizing if "A de-cocainized extract of coca leaf" is used to make it? The energizing aspect has been removed.
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posted
There's more to coca leaf than cocaine, just like coffee/caffeine. De-cocanized coca tea (available from amazon) also gives you energy btw.
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emla999/Lyme
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In regards to Ray drinking Coca Cola.
I believe that on the Ray Peat forum it has been recommended that you drink "Mexican Coca Cola" versus the Coca Cola that is found here in states because reportedly Mexican Coca Cola is made with pure sugar instead of being made with high fructose corn syrup...... or at least it used to be made with sugar.
emla999/Lyme
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posted
I believe that Dr. Ray Peat eats "gummy" candies mostly because it contains gelatin.
Your adrenal glands release two hormones called adrenaline and cortisol whenever blood glucose levels are low. And having high levels of those stress hormones can have negative effects on your body.
And apparently, gelatin (due to it's aminio acid profile e.g. high in glycine and other stress lowereing amino acids) can lower the production of those stress hormones. And therefore eating gelatin can have a pro-thyroid effect and thus eating gealtin can increase your metabolism and your body temperature. You should also experience less anxiety and your sleeping may improve.
Dr. Peat has stated that, historically, people used to eat quite a bit of gelatin via bone broth and by eating things such as cartilage.
But nowadays, most people don't eat gelatin with their meals. Plus most people now only eat the lean muscle meat of animals. And this results in many people ingesting amino acids in the incorrect ratio. And that can cause people to produce more stress hormones and thus they will have a lowered metabolism, a lowered body temperature and a lowered thyroid function.
And adding more gelatin to your diet may help to reduce stress hormone production and it has pro-thyroid effects.
If you don't want to eat gummy candies as a source of gelatin then you can buy pure gelatin powder instead or hydrolysated collagen. Or you can eat alot of bone broth/cartilage.
Personally, I can't tolerate regular gelatin powder but I can take hydrolysated collagen powder just fine. And Ray says that hydrolysated collagen can be used in place of regular gelatin because it basically has the same amino acid profile as regular gelatin.
emla999/Lyme
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Now, in regards to Dr. Ray Peat's view on eating vegetables. The Dr. Ray Peat protocol is not a diet that is devoid of vegetables.
Actually, to the contrary, generally speaking, his protocol allows you to eat "fruiting vegetables" such as squash, melons, peppers cucumbers and etc. as long as you remove the seeds prior to eating them. Though, I doubt that ingesting a few vegetable seeds would make or break his protocol.
And you can eat most of the underground vegetables such as potatoes, carrots, turnips, beets onions and etc. provided that you cook them prior to eating.
*** Although, Dr. Peat does recommend that people eat some raw uncooked carrots because eating raw carrots can apparently remove bacterial endotoxins from the intestines and therefore eating raw carrots may reduce excessive serotonin absorption from the intestines........ excessive serotonin absorption can cause health problems.
But Ray does recommend AGAINST eating green leafy vegetables such as Kale, mustard, spinach broccoli because he believes that their anti-metabolic effects outweigh the benefits of their mineral and antioxidant content. Though, I believe that he has stated that you can ocassionally make a green vegetable broth and drink that broth juice for the mineral content it provides.
But when you think about it, when have you ever woke up in the morning just craving a big bowl of kale or a hot plate of mustard greens??? A great many people seem to instinctually dislike eating many of the leaf greens. Why is that???? Are our insticts telling us something?
Ray also recommends against eating most seeds and nuts due to their high polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) content and due also to the various anti-nutrient compunds found in most seeds and most nuts.
He seems to think that eating white rice is ok. And eating coconuts is wonderful because coconuts contain no PUFA's and have a high saturated fat content. And coconuts have a pro-thyroid effect and therefore eating coconuts can help to increase your metabolism.
posted
"But when you think about it, when have you ever woke up in the morning just craving a big bowl of kale or a hot plate of mustard greens???"
LOL! This morning, and I am eating more mustard greens now to feed the same craving.
"excessive serotonin absorption can cause health problems."
It's true. It's called "serotonin syndrome" and is caused by overdosing on SSRI's. It is not caused by diet.
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emla999/Lyme
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Also, I just want to say that I am incorporating aspects of both Dr. Ray Peat's and Matt Stone's protocol/dietary suggestions. So, I do not rigidly follow either one of their protocols/advice. But rather, I found a combination that has worked for me.
And to me, the "take home message" of Dr. Peat's and Mstt Stone's is that having a low body metabolism, low body temperature and low thyroid function can cause you to experience numerous health problems. And a low metabolism have been what actually caused your Lyme Disease to become a chronic to begin with. And if you have a low metabolism and do not correct your low metabolism then you may never fully recover from your health problems.
Another take home message is that your eating and water/fluid drinking habits can have a significant effect upon your body's metabolism.
If you are eating the wrong foods or are drinking too much water/fluid then this can cause a chronic state of low metabolism. And when you finally start drinking less water and eating the correct foods and taking the corrct supplements then your metabolism will probably increase and thus you will feel better and your body will function better and then your body will be better able to fight off chronic infections.
So, according to Ray Peat and Matt Stone, having a healthy meatbolism, having low stress hormone production, having a normal body temperature and having a normal functioning thyroid are crucial to overcoming many chronic illnesses.
emla999/Lyme
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posted
VV said:
quote: LOL! This morning, and I am eating more mustard greens now to feed the same craving.
I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of people do not crave kale or other greens as a breakfast food. I know that I never have.
And since young children don't have the "healthy" eating dogmas ingrained into their minds they would be a good example of instinctual eating. How many children do you think wake up in morning and ask their mom to cook them a bowel of mustard greens for breakfast???
I bet very few children or adults for that matter would want to eat greens for breakfast.
Actually, if I were to eat a bowl of watery greens in the morning I would probably develop symptoms of low metabolism, mild hyponatremia, lower body temperature, cold hands and feet and frequent urination. I cannot drink fluids or eat watery foods in the early morning hours without devlop those symptoms. So, I have to drink very little fluid in the morning and eat a dry, salty, sugary based breakfast.
Your body temperature is usually naturally lower in the morning due to your body's natural circadian rhythm. And therfore most people seem to like to eat metabolically "warming" foods in the morning hours such as dry toast and jam, sausage, pancakes and syrup, dried fruit, salty eggs, and etc.
"Healthy and intelligent groups of people have been found to have an average resting pulse rate of 85/minute, while less healthy groups average close to 70/minute."
This is baloney. Pure and simple.
Posts: 922 | From Philadelphia | Registered: Sep 2012
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lymeboy
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posted
no disrespect to the poster but I'm not buying any of this.
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emla999/Lyme
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posted
VV,
Dr. Ray Peat's health views largely revolve around low metabolism and thus hypothyroidism as being an underlying cause of chronic illnesses.
And the article that he made that comment in was an article about hypothyroidism. You can read the entire article on the link down bellow. And you will see that comment that he made there as well.
And in my opinion, that comment of Dr. Ray Peat's may have some validty to it.
Why do I say that?
Well, hypothyroidism can caue brain fog, memory impairment and learning diabilities. And hypothyroism of the mother has been associated with a lowered IQ in her children.
And since hypothyroidism is often a cause of having a lowered heart rate. Dr. Peat would probably view having a low heart rate as being a possible result of having hypothyroidism.
And therfore, Dr. Peat may think that a lowered heart rate would indicate that people with low heart rates have hypothyroidism and all of the symptoms that can go along with hypothyroidism..... symptoms such as memory impairment, lowered IQ and a low heart rate.
*** By the way, excessive production of adrenaline may cause a person with hypothyroidism to still develop a high heart/pulse rate because adrenaline can increase your pulse rate. And again, that's why eating "gummy" candies or gelatin may be beneficial to people with hypothyroidism and low metabolism...... it can lower adrenaline production and help to return your heart rate to normal.
Metabolism and how your heart/pulse rate and body temperature relate to it.
posted
"And since hypothyroidism is often a cause of having a lowered heart rate. Dr. Peat would probably view having a low heart rate as being a possible result of having hypothyroidism."
Athletes tend to have lower resting heart rates. 50-60bpm is not uncommon for athletes.
Are these people less healthy than Ray Peat?
You should really look for more sources on your information:
"A number of investigations indicate that faster resting heart rate has emerged as a new risk factor for mortality in homeothermic mammals, particularly cardiovascular mortality in human beings. Faster heart rate may accompany increased production of inflammation molecules and increased production of reactive oxygen species in cardiovascular system, in addition to increased mechanical stress to the heart. There is a correlation between increased resting rate and cardiovascular risk. This is not seen to be "using an allotment of heart beats" but rather an increased risk to the system from the increased rate.[17]
An Australian-led international study of patients with cardiovascular disease has shown that heart beat rate is a key indicator for the risk of heart attack. The study, published in The Lancet (September 2008) studied 11,000 people, across 33 countries, who were being treated for heart problems. Those patients whose heart rate was above 70 beats per minute had significantly higher incidence of heart attacks, hospital admissions and the need for surgery.
University of Sydney professor of cardiology Ben Freedman from Sydney's Concord hospital, said "If you have a high heart rate there was an increase in heart attack, there was about a 46 percent increase in hospitalizations for non-fatal or fatal heart attack."[18]
glm1111
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posted
After reading most of the threads on here, all I can say is OY VEY!! That being said, I am intrigued by the higher metabolism aspect. I had a friend who years ago was really sick with chronic neuro Lyme to the point where he needed shock therapy.
For some strange reason he started to drink VERY strong coffee, eating tons of dark chocolate covered coffee beans and taking approx 60-80mg of adderrall a day. It put him into remission, but also caused an exessive mania and eventually he crashed.
I am not in any way suggesting this was a good idea, but am just wondering if the higher metabolism theory does help the body fight these infections?
I think a good adrenal support like Adrenal Health would be a wiser choice. All I know is these are some fierce infections we are fighting and not a one horse pony.
Kinda reminds me of Dr. Robert Youngs alkalanizing theory, that bugs can't survive in an alkaline state. I have also read the opposite. Didn't touch my infections and I tried it for a few yrs.
Gael
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quote:Originally posted by VV: "And since hypothyroidism is often a cause of having a lowered heart rate. Dr. Peat would probably view having a low heart rate as being a possible result of having hypothyroidism."
Athletes tend to have lower resting heart rates. 50-60bpm is not uncommon for athletes.
Are these people less healthy than Ray Peat?
Generally yes. It's more along the lines of extremely healthy people being able to tolerate lower heart rates, rather than low heart rates being good for you. Additionally, stress hormones (cortisol, adrenaline, etc) that compensate for hypo-thyroid will raise heart rates too.
If you already have heart problems, then a higher rate is possibly a sign of higher stress hormones, and so not very good.
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quote:Originally posted by glm1111: I am not in any way suggesting this was a good idea, but am just wondering if the higher metabolism theory does help the body fight these infections?
I think a good adrenal support like Adrenal Health would be a wiser choice. All I know is these are some fierce infections we are fighting and not a one horse pony.
The problem with adrenal support is that it will only allow your body to pump out larger amounts of stress hormones (cortisol, adrenaline, etc).
This is somewhat equivalent to the boss yelling at you everyday to get your work done. Increasing the stress will force you to be more productive in the short run, but you will have a crash sooner or later. Let's not hand your boss a megaphone to "motivate" you more.
Whereas you would actively want to work if you were healthy. The trick is to reduce stress so the adrenals aren't needed as much since your metabolism is high.
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Sugar, caffeine and alcohol all raise adrenaline. Coca Cola (a Ray Peat approved beverage) contains #1 and #2.
Maybe Ray should prescribe rum and Coke's to hypothyroid patients. It sounds like a recipe for burnout.
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emla999/Lyme
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posted
VV,
I am not sure if professional atheletes are healthier or live longer than non professional atheletes do or not. But I suspect that the oldest living human beings are usually not professional atheletes.
Most professional atheletes tend to be in their 20's and 30's. So, perhaps when professional atheletes finally retire at the old age of 38 maybe their thyroid function returns to normal.
But since some atheletes such as Michael Phelps are known to eat lots of sugar/ carbs/calories maybe the metabolic stimulating diet of professional atheletes is protecting them of their functional hypothyroidism..... and more importantly maybe their diet is protecting them from excessive stress hormone such as adrenaline and cortisol.
Also, rigorous exercise can lower thyroid hormones fairly significantly. And lower thyroid hormone production = hypothyroidism. And it appears that atheletes are rather prone to "functional" hypothyroidism. For example wrestlers are known have lowered thyroid production and therefore they are technically hypothyroid.
"The results indicate that exercise decreases thyroid hormones and testosterone in sedentary men."
Hence, rigourus exercise can lower thyroid hormone production and that is technically hypothyroidism. And hypothyroidism is know to lower heart rate and cause numerous health problems. So, maybe professional atheletes are not truly all that healthy after all. So, maybe the Michael Phelps type diet is protecting professional atheletes from their functional hypothyroidism????
And in regards to the study that you were talking about.
In one of my previous posts I stated that excessive adrenaline production can cause a person's heart rate to increase.
And excessive production of the stress hormones adrenaline and cotisol is known to cause cardiovasular problems. So, was the patients adrenaline and cortisol levels measured??? There was no mention in that study that they measured adrenaline or the other stress hormones.
So, it could very well be that those people in that study with elevated heart rate could have had excessive stress hormone production. Thus those people would be more prone to developing cardiovascular disease.
Dr. Ray Peat and Matt Stone protocols are designed to lower the stress hormones that increase cardiovascular problems.
Also, hypothyroidism usually lowers a person's heart rate but your body can produce more adrenaline to offset this lowered heart rate and thus a hypothyroid patient can actually have a normal or even elevated heart rate.
But generally speaking, hypothyroid patients have lowered heart rates UNLESS their body is producing excessive amounts of stress hormones such as adrenaline.
"When a person becomes stressed for whatever reason, their body releases stress hormones in order to cope with the stress. Adrenaline is such a stress hormone and has the effect of rapidly RAISING sugar in the blood stream. "
And again, adrenaline production can increase because blood sugar is LOW. When blood sugar is normal excessive adrenaline will not be produced as frequently.
"A key symptom of hypoglycemia is quite often disturbed sleep, typically occurring between 2am and 3am, when the blood sugar drops too low and the adrenal reaction to bring the blood sugar level back to normal causes the person to wake."
***** How many people here on Lymenet wake up in the mddle of the night with their heart pounding, sweating and feeling panicky????
I know that are a few people here that have had this response. I used to be one of those people. But now that I eat a little sugar or a few seet dried dates before I go to bed that 2 - 3 AM adrenaline rush no longer occurs.
Also, that link went to Paul Jaminet's page and he has his own diet that he promotes and he has tried to disredit Dr. Peat's diet.
Nonetheless, it is well known in the world of endocrinolgy that a decrease in blood sugar causes the body to produce more adrenaline.
posted
"Dr. Ray Peat and Matt Stone protocols are designed to lower the stress hormones that increase cardiovascular problems.
But generally speaking, hypothyroid patients have lowered heart rates UNLESS their body is producing excessive amounts of stress hormones such as adrenaline."
So then, as I previously stated, why is Ray Peat advocating sugar and caffeine in the diet when these are shown to raise adrenaline levels?
I also think you are hypothesizing yourself into a rabbit hole about athletes and hypothyroidism. I can't even begin to unravel your interest in the distinction between professional and non-professional athletes in the scope of this argument. It makes absolutely no sense.
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posted
"Actually, your body produces MORE adrenaline when your blood sugar drops (hypoglycemia)."
Ahhh, big hole here. Sugar is not the only source of blood sugar. Both carbs and protein are converted into blood glucose. This is why glycemic index is important. You can eat and maintain a proper blood sugar without going too high or low with much more ease by using a low glycemic diet.
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emla999/Lyme
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posted
Again, when blood sugar drops, adrenaline production goes up.
And if you eat pure white sugar or fruit and etc. at various times throughout the day this can help to keep your blood sugar from dropping too low and therefore eating sugar can potentially keep your adrenaline levels low or at least lower.
And in my opiniom, eating sugar or fruit or something like that can be benefical for people that have high adrenaline and high levels of stress hormones.
And also in my opinion, not becoming overlyhydrated may also be benifical in lowering stress hormone production because if you drink too much water you can potentially lower your blood sugar level and therefore drinking too much water may possible induce the production of adrenaline.
And it is easy to determine whether or not you are drinking too much water by measuring the specific gravity of your urine with arelatively cheap refractometer.
beaches
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Ninja wrote:
"The problem with adrenal support is that it will only allow your body to pump out larger amounts of stress hormones (cortisol, adrenaline, etc).
This is somewhat equivalent to the boss yelling at you everyday to get your work done. Increasing the stress will force you to be more productive in the short run, but you will have a crash sooner or later. Let's not hand your boss a megaphone to "motivate" you more.
Whereas you would actively want to work if you were healthy. The trick is to reduce stress so the adrenals aren't needed as much since your metabolism is high."
................................................
OK, I was trying to NOT get into the mix here!
But someone please correct me if I am wrong-don't you need adrenal support when you are hit hard by Lyme/cos???
Especially if you've been dealing with these infections for a long time and.or have not gotten well despite years of treatment and have symptoms that are indicative of your adrenals being totally shot?
Sorry for the run-on sentence!
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glm1111
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ninjaphire,
There is a big difference in taking something like Adrenal Health with ingredients that nourish the adrenal glands, than drinking 10 cups of coffee that will cause them to work overtime.
Same applies to sea salt and vitamin C, that also SUPPORTS and nourishes the adrenals.
Gael
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beaches
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posted
And another thing, do Dr. Peat and this guy Matt have any kind of knowledge at all of Lyme Disease and its coinfections??? And how these flipping infections can affect every single system/organ in one's body???
If not, then this whole discussion/argument is unnecessary/bogus/ridiculous/silly.
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beaches
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posted
Yes, Gael-exactly.
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"if you eat pure white sugar or fruit and etc. at various times throughout the day this can help to keep your blood sugar from dropping too low and therefore eating sugar can potentially keep your adrenaline levels low or at least lower." - emla999/Lyme
You are ignoring the point that refined sugar consumption also promotes adrenaline and that blood sugar is not maintained well by simple sugars (it spikes and falls off).
It also very odd to assume that everyone is hypoglycemic who doesn't eat refined sugars. That's just preposterous. If you maintain proper blood sugar without a high sugar diet, why would you advocate eating more sugar and risk adrenaline overload and pancreatic fatigue?
Yikes. It just doesn't make sense. I just think some people want to hear the magic words from on high that "you can eat sugar!".
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emla999/Lyme
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posted
Why would you say that???
If follwing someone's suggestions caused your chronic Lyme Disease symptoms to improve dramatically why would it matter what they thought about chronic Lyme Disease????
My LLMDS believed wholeheartdly in the existance of Lyme Disease. My IgeneX test indicated that I had chronic Lyme Disease but my LLMD wasn't able to help me at all.
But following some of Dr. Peat and and Matt's suggestions have helped me tremendously. So, if Dr. Peat thought that chronic Lyme Disease was bogus I could careless because following some of Dr. Peat's and Matt's suggestions has helped me and the poster ninjaphire improve.
I have also communicated with a few other chronic Lyme Disease patients that have saw tremendous improvements following some of Dr. Peat's and Matt's advice.
beaches
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posted
OK, and again here I am not wanting to get into the mix of this but yet I continue to post. Oy vey!
Don't complex carbs like fruits, grains, veggies also get converted to glucose for our bodies to use???
IMO there is no valid reason, scientific or otherwise, at all to consume processed/refined foodstuff like white sugar and soda for the purpose of obtaining and/or maintaining one's health. Perhaps consuming "Mexican Cola" is different. I don't know anything about that.
But by and large, processed/refined foodstuff ought to be viewed as special "treats" and consumed as little and as infrequently as possible. There is just no good reason at all to consume these products regularly.
By no means am I a fanatic about sugar avoidance. I think we all need to treat ourselves occasionally. I do not at all agree with deprivation (unless of course it is necessary in the case of celiac's or diabetes or some other health issue).
But why on earth would anyone in their right mind deliberately consume processed/refined foodstuff on a regular basis, especially when they have serious health problems like Lyme/cos??? It just doesn't any make sense to me at all-
especially these days when you can walk into any grocery store and find a myriad of really good foods.
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beaches
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posted
quoting emla...
"But following some of Dr. Peat and and Matt's suggestions have helped me tremendously. So, if Dr. Peat thought that chronic Lyme Disease was bogus I could careless because following some of Dr. Peat's and Matt's suggestions has helped me and the poster ninjaphire improve."
Fair enough. If following this doctor's suggestions has helped you, that's wonderful!
I guess I have a problem with any physician believing that Chronic Lyme Disease is bogus.
That alone would be the end of it for me b/c it's my reality and has been for years.
I just don't tolerate anyone minimizing or trying to eliminate my personal reality.
And as far as the Matt person, well, he's a just a person like the rest of us so his particular opinion is moot.
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emla999/Lyme
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Beaches, Dr. Peat highly recommends the eating of most sweet fruits and vegetables such as melons and potatoes. And to him, you can eat sugar if you want to but you don't have too. But he does not recommend that you eat high fructose corn syrup or too many grains. In part because grains contain PUFA's.
And again, I don't rigidly follow Ray or Matt's protocol. But I have found that incorporating some of Matt and Ray's advice into my life has helped me tremendously..... especially the drinking less water/fluid thing. And measuring my urine with a refratometer to determine whether or not I was drinking too much water.
quote:Originally posted by beaches: I guess I have a problem with any physician believing that Chronic Lyme Disease is bogus.
That alone would be the end of it for me b/c it's my reality and has been for years.
Dr. Peat is not at all against the use of antibiotics. In fact, he recommends the use of doxy/mino/tetracycline/penicillin etc as therapy.
However, he thinks it's the hypothyroid that allows the infection to flourish, and many of our symptoms are actually hypothyroid symptoms.
There are even a number of common symptoms between Lyme and say CFS, perhaps there's a common cause, hypothyroid.
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There is a big difference in taking something like Adrenal Health with ingredients that nourish the adrenal glands, than drinking 10 cups of coffee that will cause them to work overtime.
Same applies to sea salt and vitamin C, that also SUPPORTS and nourishes the adrenals.
Gael
Gael,
I'm saying that supporting and nourishing the adrenal glands (helping it make more cortisol for instance) is increasing the stress level on your body. In essence you're trying to patch the hypothyroid symptoms with more cortisol, which is probably not so good.
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posted
emla999/Lyme said: "I said no such thing. Where did I say that at?"
It's in the chain of assumption set up here:
Lyme=Hypothyroidism=Hypoglycemic
You've set up this hypothesis that we suffer from Lyme because we are suffering from a "low metabolism" (hypothyroidism), and we are hypothyroid because we are hypoglycemic, therefore we need to eat more sugar.
This is a very tenuous argument. Not even the first step in that chain can be established with certainty, given that it is more likely that hypothyroidism when coinciding with Lyme, is very likely to be caused by the Lyme. You have reversed this arrow of causality without explaining how or why.
If you are going to buck the conventional wisdom, you need to bring stronger evidence to the table than Dr. Peat says "xyz".
In the meantime I am certainly not assuming that eating more sugar and drinking less water is the cure for Lyme disease.
Posts: 922 | From Philadelphia | Registered: Sep 2012
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I'm saying that supporting and nourishing the adrenal glands (helping it make more cortisol for instance) is increasing the stress level on your body. In essence you're trying to patch the hypothyroid symptoms with more cortisol, which is probably not so good. [/QB][/QUOTE]
It sounds like you are making the assumption that all patients (or everybody?) is hypothyroid. You are also misunderstanding the fact that cortisol and adrenaline are produced in response to stressful situations.
Cortisol in particular is vital in dealing with stress (physiological and psychological) and without adequate levels you will not be able to fight infection (or function). Make no mistake, you NEED cortisol to live hence why people provide adrenal SUPPORT.
This is the importance of a differential diagnosis. Telling someone their problems are caused by hypothyroidism when it's their adrenals is problematic under certain circumstances and can be deadly even.
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beaches
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posted
quote:Originally posted by emla999/Lyme: Beaches, Dr. Peat highly recommends the eating of most sweet fruits and vegetables such as melons and potatoes. And to him, you can eat sugar if you want to but you don't have too. But he does not recommend that you eat high fructose corn syrup or too many grains. In part because grains contain PUFA's.
And again, I don't rigidly follow Ray or Matt's protocol. But I have found that incorporating some of Matt and Ray's advice into my life has helped me tremendously..... especially the drinking less water/fluid thing. And measuring my urine with a refratometer to determine whether or not I was drinking too much water.
.
emla, if any of this has helped you regain any part of your health, that's great! We are all different and these tick-borne diseases affect everyone differently. So what works for one won't necessarily work for another.
I still have a lot of questions about these guys, but I don't expect you or ninja to answer on their behalf.
I really do question the lower intake of water (unless of course you suffer from a certain condition whose name escapes me at the moment). I personally believe it is very important to flush out toxins via water intake.
But again, if your health has improved b/c of their advice, more power to you. I wish you continued good health!
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Catgirl
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posted
I saw a few youtube videos a few months back by someone who follows Ray Peat (Josh Rubin). Thought they were interesting.
Without reading all the posts above, I wonder if Ray Peat knows about lyme and company? I had yeast pre lyme treatment. I also was bit many times. Each time I got bit, I craved more sugar--feeding the yeast, which may have been keeping everything happy but the itching was a pain.
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beaches
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posted
quote:Originally posted by ninjaphire:
quote:Originally posted by beaches: I guess I have a problem with any physician believing that Chronic Lyme Disease is bogus.
That alone would be the end of it for me b/c it's my reality and has been for years.
Dr. Peat is not at all against the use of antibiotics. In fact, he recommends the use of doxy/mino/tetracycline/penicillin etc as therapy.
However, he thinks it's the hypothyroid that allows the infection to flourish, and many of our symptoms are actually hypothyroid symptoms.
There are even a number of common symptoms between Lyme and say CFS, perhaps there's a common cause, hypothyroid.
Oh I don't doubt for a minute that there are many, many sx shared by dx like LD/cos and CFS, and we can even throw in other dx like fibro and MS.
But I've been hypo for many, many years! I didn't get LD/cos til decades after that dx. In my case, the hypothyroid dx is genetic.
And does it count with him and Matt that I've had my thyroid function monitored for decades? As well as the thyroid function of my sick kids? And that I and they have been treated for being hypothyroid???
It's really not about whether Peat is for or against abx tx. It's about what he believes fundamentally as a physician.
For me, it's whether or not he "believes" that Chronic Lyme Disease can affect every system and organ in one's body. If he does not, that tells me a great deal.
And that would be the deciding factor/sole reason for me to seek or not seek his opinion/treatment.
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quote:Originally posted by VV: It sounds like you are making the assumption that all patients (or everybody?) is hypothyroid. You are also misunderstanding the fact that cortisol and adrenaline are produced in response to stressful situations.
Cortisol in particular is vital in dealing with stress (physiological and psychological) and without adequate levels you will not be able to fight infection (or function). Make no mistake, you NEED cortisol to live hence why people provide adrenal SUPPORT.
This is the importance of a differential diagnosis. Telling someone their problems are caused by hypothyroidism when it's their adrenals is problematic under certain circumstances and can be deadly even.
Yes, cortisol and adrenaline are produced in response to stressful situations. And they are vital and do help a lot. However, in the long term, your body is significantly weakened by the stress.
So you want to remove the original stress, thus reducing your body's need for the adaptive stress hormones (cortisol etc).
One such stress is hypothyroidism (you might also call it thyroid resistance (high RT3), or low metabolism etc). I suspect we would all fit the classical symptoms of hypothyroid. Low temperature, low metabolism in general, etc
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glm1111
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posted
ninjaphire,
If the adrenal glands are low functioning and not producing much cortisol at all, then trying to help REPLENISH the cortisol and bring them back to a more normal level is NOT patching the hypothyroid symptoms. We are not really talking about OVERPRODUCTION of cortisol here.
If the infections from Lyme are disseminated, the adrenals AND thyroid are most likely infected as well suppressing the whole enodcrine system. You have to get rid of the CAUSE, which is infection.
A low functioning thyroid is most likely a result of inflammation brought about by these infections.
P. S.
Can't imagine that Ray Peats program will get rid of this kind of infection.
The bottom line is, if it works for you, then great!
Gael
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beaches
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posted
For the majority here, I dare say the "original stress" is tick-borne disease.
And we are all trying to remove that for sure.
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beaches
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And ninja, have you considered that s hypothyroid state could very well be an end result of a tick-borne disease?
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