it is my understanding that bart thrives on mag somehow...
thanks
d
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
Im on the fence about this. Something has set off my bladder symptoms again since I started seeing my new LLMD who pushed Mg so I would have more BM's a day.
I really think it helped to stir something up, I stopped it for now, and may try it again, since I just bought three bottles worth.
It was odd for me, because at first the Mg helped with muscle tightness and then everything seemed to errupt.
I think some LLMD say Mg is ok and some say not to take it.
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
yeah i agree most disagree about it.
im pretty sure dr JS in FL is going to say in his new book that you cannot take mag if u have bart.
it all has something to do with biofilms and how bart thrives on it.
i stopped mag 2 weeks ago and my muscle twitches are gone and i do not notice any other adverse side effects. i also test regular through blood altho this is a poor gauge as mag is intra cellular.
id be willing to bet down the road a lot of people will stop taking mag. well except maybe for bryan rosner Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
Well, when you're taking Levaquin it's a catch 22. I take magnesium to help prevent tendon damage.
Posted by mrpotto (Member # 15123) on :
Again. So I need to take levaquin to kill the bart but I need to take magnesium to keep my tendons from rupturing while on levaquin. So confusing and hard to get well if one offsets the other.
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
no you do NOT want to take magnesium to kill the bart, it needs mag to live (this is my understanding) but yes people use it while on levaquin to prevent tendon damage.
and yes, frustrating and confusing Posted by chamade (Member # 11472) on :
Can anyone point to research that proves the bart/magnesium connection?
Magnesium is involved in so many body processes that starving yourself from it while fighting this disease could be even worse - especially with neuro symptoms.
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
i would not suggest starving yourself from it and i have no data, i believe dr JS will....
if it helps u, id take it. if bartonella is your biggest problem, id look further into it...
cheers
Posted by LymeCFIDSMCS (Member # 13573) on :
I know with CFIDS, the body simply cannot hold on to its magnesium stores and patients tend to have low mag levels no matter what they do -- injecting, taking it orally, etc. But I wonder if there's a physiologic reason for this, i.e. that the body is dumping mag to try and save itself from pathogens like bart? It's fascinating.
I use magnesium cream and have done magnesium IVs on and off. They seem to give me a boost but then I crash later on, so maybe this is bad strategy on my part: maybe I'm helping with some of the problems (i.e. neuro stuff) but then enabling the bart which later causes a crash?
I'd like to see the science on this too.
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
exactly.
Posted by Gabrielle (Member # 5329) on :
Before I was treated with abx I was always low in magnesium (cramps,...).
After a few months on abx I didn't need magnesium supplements anymore - during all the years I took abx.
Then, I had a break of 6 months and around month 4 the cramps came back. So, I'm pretty sure there is something eating my magnesium. I have at least Borrelia, Bartonella and Ehrlichia.
Immediately after the abx break I started with the Levaquin and knowing that I was low again in magnesium I didn't dare to take the Levaquin w/o mag. because of possible tendon problems.
If I would treat with another abx I wouldn't take magnesium and if I would have tried the Levaquin immediately after my long abx treatment when I was still not deficient in magnesium I wouldn't have taken mag neither.
Gabrielle
Posted by tdtid (Member # 10276) on :
This is definitley one of those topics that our LLMD's are on both sides of the fences.
Mine has me on Levaquin for the bart and yes, he wants me taking Magnesium with it to help the risk of tendon damage. I did ask him about it feeding the bart.
His feeling is that when on Levaquin, he thinks it's higher advantage to still take it and that depriving our own body of various nutrients is just going to get us in trouble in a different way.
He does understand the vicious circle, but for him, it's magnesium as long as I'm on Levaquin. Guess time will tell.
Cathy
Posted by painted turtle (Member # 7801) on :
I guestimate that the magnesium is what the bugs eat, like no matter how much food you put into your gut, if you have a parasite you are not the one going to get nourished.
My current LLMD does not want me to take magnesium. I have lyme, bart, myco, and babs along with the HHV-6 and other viruses.
Before I was ever diagnosed, like 10 years before, I knew I was low on magnesium.
Currently I am going with my own intuition and have been taking the Calm powder mag every night. AFter I got used to it (the body vibrations) (flare), and this didn't take all that long, I believe I have made the right choice.
However, I'm sure magnesium would have been counter productive a year and two and three years ago. At this point I need to give my body what it needs and if I am sharing it with the bugs, so be it. I'm not going to deny my body what it is screaming out for just because the bugs are getting it, at this point, I have to think I am benefiting from it as much as the bugs, or at least some.
Posted by Clarissa (Member # 4715) on :
I have a confusing viewpoint on this, too.
While being treated for Bart with Rifampin and Zithro and my biotoxin gene with cholestyramine, Dr. S in FL had me on Mag citrate to help constipation from CSM. That seemed fine.
5 mos later, I'm symptom -free, taken off abx, doing well at one month off abx and then start magnesium malate for laxative (as some nutritionist told my mother the mag citrate can be hard on the intestines).
My first dose of Mag MALATE was on Sunday and by Tuesday night I was in a catatonic state, drugged out, tingling/numbing left arm and thigh (my Lyme side), absolutely NO appetite to nauseous...exhausted.
So I stopped Tues night, now it's Thursday and I still have all of the same symptoms (lessening slowly).
I wrote a post and Painted Turtle said people with Babs shouldn't take Mag Malate (I have asymptomatic Babs Duncani) so I don't know if I stirred that up OR if it stirred up some remissioned Bart.
I'd like to just take a flying leap off my roof into the creek in my backyard. I'm so OVER this BS and all of the inconsistencies and "rumors" and disagreements.
I'm talking to my LLMD on Monday so I'll let you guys know what he says.
Until then...
Posted by painted turtle (Member # 7801) on :
Hi Clarissa,
I think the doctors don't really have a cohesive and agreeable conclusion on this. One says this the other says that.
I don't do the mag MALATE anymore at all.
I was told it is not good for the babesia patient, and I experienced it first hand. (can you say ANOXIC!?)
However, the Calm Mag, I am doing of my own accord for present time relief. At some point I have to trust myself about some things even if I may be wrong!
Posted by Clarissa (Member # 4715) on :
Another question:
So why does everyone promote epsom salt baths when the epsom salt has magnesium sulfate in it?
Furthermore, why does it make me feel better after I take them if Mag is feeding any of my leftover Bart?
It's just so darn confusing! Posted by Peacesoul (Member # 13709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clarissa:
So why does everyone promote epsom salt baths when the epsom salt has magnesium sulfate in it?
Furthermore, why does it make me feel better after I take them if Mag is feeding any of my leftover Bart?
It's just so darn confusing!
good question. I would also like to know this
My LLMD recommended I take Mag Gylycinate and she knows I have Bart
[ 23. May 2008, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Peacesoul ]
Posted by MBB3 (Member # 13459) on :
What a TELLING thread!
I was dx with Lyme/Bart just a few weeks ago after 1.5 year fiasco.
Interesting observation, and this is purely anecdoctal and my personal experience. For several months BEFORE the onset of my neuro sx's 1.5 years ago, I took Calcium/Magnesium/Zinc supplement EVERY day for several months to battle twitching (this was before I even KNEW what Lyme/Bart was or that I could have it). Anyway, after several months of this supplementation, twitching improved a little but the nerve pain in feet and hands came on full force!
What does this mean? I cannot say other than maybe the Bart just flourished on the Mag that sent off worse neuro sx's. Sidenote, it seems whenever I take Mag in recent months, my twitching becomes worse, I stop the Mag and twitching lessens. With others mentioning similar things, there might be a connection?
Starting first ABX tx for this in a few days, wish me luck!
Take Care Everbody, MBB3
Posted by Alv (Member # 15192) on :
Epsom salt baths have the ralxing efects and we all like it but the price comes after using it.
My own exsperience and using high dosages of magensium ( before i knew I had lyme and bart , babs and all the rest ) almost 3 times -I had a huge relapse on my symtoms and completly my neuro symtoms were at the roof.
I used to take magnesium -OZONATED magnesium , relapse spread bart fast .That hapened 6 months after the reinfection in 2005 while I was doing parasite cleansing .Shoulder pain -brain swelling.
6months later got worst when I did 5 liver flushes -had stroke and my eyes got blackl rings ..I still did not know i had babs and bart.
Than the 3 rd time was IM injections .I did 2 cc of magnesium and on the 10 day had a spasm -relapse WHILE on LEVAQUIN and thought I was dying again .My bart came back stronger after many months on treatment .
So every time I do High dossage of magnesium I get worst..
Magnesium in high dosage moslty it opens up the LYME cyst and feed bart and babs ...and my pain on both times was exactly as it was in 2005 last reinfection when lyme became active..
WHY THE PAIN is exactly the same.THAT WAS the time I GOT REINFECTED with BLO and the sharp pain come back the same and numbness and pinching on my arm , and right leg comes back again and I am more exosted than ever .
I wish I had muscle tested the magensium that I have with my other dr.I will do it next time.That was the dr that keept me alive before I found that I had LYME .
FYI , I am lower in Vitamin D and I muscle tested the Vitamin D that My dr llmd perscrtibed.
Well we all know that Marshall protokoll is against it.In MY CASE VITAMIN D that my Dr gave me was BIG NOOOOO.....For me.
So maybe is the strain ...I would use muscle testing and listen to my body .
3 times relapses on bart when I was treating it ....just does nto make sense....so magnesium was doing it.Every time i used it I would get foot sorenes and walk as a handicap .
How can it be that on levaquin I used the injection B12 and magnesium 2 cc and I started them on the second month of the levaquin and got worst since i started on 5 th week and got even worst on the 6th week...On the first month I was getting better and that BAM-thought I could not breath and stayed in bed as a statue.
I AM taking levaquin now and I am not lifting anything .No magnesium either.
That is my eksp.
Sorry for the long posting.
Posted by Clarissa (Member # 4715) on :
Alv,
I would like to give you the Most Relentless Strong Bart Warrior Award.
What you have been through! You are a very strong person and I admire your tenacity.
It certainly seems like Magnesium played the role in your relapses.
Thanks for sharing this helpful and vital information with us all so we may not have to suffer what you did.
Your honesty and willingness to share is so refreshing.
Healing thoughts to ALL of us! Posted by tailz (Member # 10014) on :
Magnesium is pretty important. I'm still up in the air over it. I took a lot of it today after reading this article, and I'm not any worse...
But I'm having a major bug attack right now, so how would I even tell?
Posted by METALLlC BLUE (Member # 6628) on :
Here are my thoughts. An infection can hold out a lot longer than you can without providing the appropriate nutrition. It just doesn't make any sense to avoid taking in proper nutrition through foods primarily, but if necessary through supplements.
I think Magnesium is crucial to immune system function, as well as a multitude of other needs. I believe what happens to patients on this supplement isn't that they infection is gaining strength, but rather they are Herxing. Cut back on it, the symptoms improve, increase it, symptoms return. The dose is also important. Taking a reasonable dose and checking blood levels are important.
I believe the deficits seen in Lyme and co-infections like Bartonella are the result of two issues. The infections are using the substance, but it's also apart of the reason they gain control over our ability to fight them off. It's an evolutionary tactic to survive and decrease our ability to kill them.
quote: Magnesium: What is it? Magnesium is the fourth most abundant mineral in the body and is essential to good health. Approximately 50% of total body magnesium is found in bone. The other half is found predominantly inside cells of body tissues and organs. Only 1% of magnesium is found in blood, but the body works very hard to keep blood levels of magnesium constant [1].
Magnesium is needed for more than 300 biochemical reactions in the body. It helps maintain normal muscle and nerve function, keeps heart rhythm steady, supports a healthy immune system, and keeps bones strong. Magnesium also helps regulate blood sugar levels, promotes normal blood pressure, and is known to be involved in energy metabolism and protein synthesis [2-3]. There is an increased interest in the role of magnesium in preventing and managing disorders such as hypertension, cardiovascular disease, and diabetes. Dietary magnesium is absorbed in the small intestines. Magnesium is excreted through the kidneys [1-3,4].
I will try to collect types of magensium and see which one is not good for me -based on MUSCLE TESTING and what my body wants and how much if I need to .
Also I had rifed when I was on LEVAQUIN and in a month finally i felt better and I had no herx or reaction to the rife on BARTONELLAS Frequencies at all.The first time ever. ONCE I started magnesium my pain came back from the foot up to my shoulder .In 2 weeks of IM injections of MAGNESIUM ( again I will see if the type of magnesium is not OK FOR ME) I HAD ALL THE FREQUENCIES OF BART ...and reacted to all of it.
I felt worse than ever.By the Way I muscle tested RIFAMPIN ( as I stoped LEVAQUIN and restarted imidielty RIFAMPIN as I did not wanted to loos ground ) and found that RIFAMPIN was a NO FOR ME.
While the same Dr ( my other DR NOT THE LLMD) before I started LEVAQUIN said that my body wanted RIFAMPIN.
So with that sad.MY other Dr that did the adjustment the day that I had a bad spasm ( right after 1 hr that I took the shott and I was watching closely everything )-he said that to much contraction can caused muscle rupture and in that case Magensium did that to me .
ANYWAY -I am not a doctor but I go with my gut and IRONICLY-they MATCH with what my Dr that does muscle testing finds in me at that time.
Right now when I got worst on Rifampnin -she muscel tested and found that RIFAMPIN ( that I took so long was not for me) and my body was ready for 1000mg LEVAQUIN -KILLING Dosage .
BUt I have been taking it for 2 weeks and I feel better that ever.Maybe is the strain left as whatever rifampin killed is not there anymore.Bugs change their turns...
I adjust all my protokoll on what my body wants to a certain time.
Again I am not a doctor but adjusting and taking what my body wants at certain time based on muscle testing -kept me alive.
I am a beiliver and I am just sharing what worked for me.We are all diferent and have diferent strains.
So what works for me might not be for others.But these are just what I found on my eksp !
By the way -I sleep 10 hr a day -without moving at all.That is an achivement .And that is what it counts.By the way I had B QUINTATA , HENSELAE and BLO!So maybe diferent strains have diferent reaction to what we take ????
THANKS A LOT CLARISA! Good luck!
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
At quick glance, I saw little mention of magnesium in the bartonella book.
Posted by Clarissa (Member # 4715) on :
I'm speaking just from my personal experience (although I'm going to cut out my Mag Citrate and epsom salts just to see if I get even more energy...as an experiment).
I agree with both Metallic Blue and Alv. I think, like everything with these TBD's, it all depends on your genetic constitution, the strain of the Bart, your general health, etc.
Some people NEED Magnesium, some people are having adverse reactions to it because of Bart or "just because."
In my case, I think I have adverse reactions to SOME forms of Magnesium and NOT others.
It's a delicate dance because you don't want to deprive your body of an important supplement but you don't want to feed the disease, either.
Follow your gut. We Lymies learn to know our bodies better than anyone else and I think, by trial and error, we will know what works and what does not.
That's my answer for my brain today. Posted by Carol in PA (Member # 5338) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clarissa: Furthermore, why does it make me feel better after I take them if Mag is feeding any of my leftover Bart?
The Lyme bacteria deplete the magnesium within your cells. Magnesium is needed for all the enzyme processes...which includes ATP making energy.
Raising the level of mag in your cells will help them to make more energy, so you will feel better.
Carol
Posted by Clarissa (Member # 4715) on :
Thank you for clarifying, Carol, because I'm CERTAIN that my epsom salt baths make me feel better, not weaker.
It's all so individual, too!
I appreciate your input.
Kindly,
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
they might make you feel better but that doesnt mean they are good for you.
my dr says no no to epsom salt baths, so im listening for now.
i agree tho, they make me feel better temporaily so the jury is still out on this one.
maybe if the !@@#$#@! government passes the 100M bill we need before were all dead well have some research done on this subject too.
cheers
derek
Posted by Clarissa (Member # 4715) on :
Great. I just got out of a relaxing epsom salt bath (after riding the stationary bike for 1 hour).
If it's SO bad for me, could I even ride a stationary bike for 1 hour at level 3?
No disrespect to your LLMD, Derek, just feeling the SAME frustration you and everyone else on the board is feeling about this "delicate" and hot topic.
Maybe you could pm me the name of your LLMD...I'd be super curious. Up to you as I don't want to intrude on your privacy!!
Best Regards,
Posted by FoggyInLA (Member # 11643) on :
Okay so I'm on Bart treatment. I'm only taking at most 120mg thats 40% RDI a day. I had been taking 20% but I decided to try Corvelen-M which has 40mg of Mag Gluconate.
The Mag Malates I see all have 425mg, I could see why it would cause something. I have all neuro symptoms. do you think 120mg total of Mag would be enough to cause some "trouble" good or bad.
Posted by Clarissa (Member # 4715) on :
I'm afraid it's trial and error for everyone when it comes to these meds/supplements.
Sixgoofy did fine with the mag malate, right?
I, on the otherhand, took a nosedive within 48 hours.
Yet, I take epsom salt baths (mag sulfate) and Mag citrate (laxative) everyday without a problem.
So who the heck knows? Try it and believe me, if it's not right, your body will let you know.
Worse case scenario, you have a bad couple of days to a week and the Mag Malate goes in the "cabinet of supplements I can't tolerate." That particular item went into my trash because I was so angry!
Best case scenario, it helps you gain some energy as people have mentioned that our bodies need magnesium.
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