I just read the news on my daily google alert. It sounds like it could be a major breakthrough. Without manganese, Bb will die. And Claritin (loratadine) keeps manganese out.
I have taken this medication only occasionally, have found it to be very effective for Spring pollen allergies. I just looked in my cabinet and there's a full bottle. Just popped one.
- If there is some way to block it ONLY in Bb, that would be wonderful.
Not all can be put into a news release but two major questions come to mind.
It would have been nice had they explained whether this would also block the manganese that the body requires for good skin, collagen and bone health, and for our body's ability to utilize antioxidants.
Or, how long the treatment may be required.
Possible that if this holds promise, it could be the FIRST line of defense right after a tick bite?
Also hope they would see how this might also affect other tick-borne infections. -
Posted by bigstan (Member # 11699) on :
Thinking back I take this every spring/summer for allergies. I do remember that I feel a lot better during this time maybe this is why?
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Paulie, please let us know how you do on it.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- When spirochetes are threatened (antibiotics, heat, vibration, etc.) they go deeper and into protective cyst form. I wonder if this might also apply here. with a nutritional starvation?
How does the cystic form of lyme receive its nourishment? Does it have "respiration" as well? Or might it "hibernate" so to speak?
Whatever, though, it would be assumed that all forms of Bb would be addressed at the same time, I hope.
I'm sure some researchers may have discussed and I'm in not shape to go searching. Just some questions that pop up. I'm sure the official study report has more detail. -
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Keep this thread alive. When I go back to my LLMD I'm going to ask him to write me a scrip for this so I can use it daily.
Keebler I would like to know the effects on our body as well for sure. But I bet I can out survive the lyme =)
Posted by gigimac (Member # 33353) on :
I find this very interesting. It would be great if this worked or even just helped.
Sacred heart, claritin is over the counter unless you are thinking of a different kind or something.
Posted by gigimac (Member # 33353) on :
think i might go pop one right now, see what happens. they don't usually help allergies but we'll see..
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
I'm thinking of the Claritin D gigimac. I'm wondering if it matters which one?
Posted by paulieinct (Member # 17514) on :
quote:Originally posted by Keebler: - If there is some way to block it ONLY in Bb, that would be wonderful.
It would have been nice had they explained whether this would also block the manganese that the body requires for good skin, collagen and bone health, and for our body's ability to utilize antioxidants. -
According to the article, it would not affect the body's ability to utilize manganese, an essential nutrient. Claritin only inhibits BmtA, the metal transporter for the borrelia bacteria, which it uses to snag manganese.
I can see Claritin possibly working best either without antibiotics, or in combo with cyst-busters. Or maybe with substances known to cause borrelia to mobilize and come out of dormancy.
The question becomes how metabolically active the cyst-form is. Does metabolism shut down, or does it continue at a very low level?
Posted by paulieinct (Member # 17514) on :
Amazon has loratadine tablets, 10 mg., 365 count, for $16.68!!!
This is very surprising news for me, as I've taken Claritin for the past little while for itching - it's an H1 blocker, meaning it's supposed to block histamine. I unfortunately am itching 24/7 now, putting baking soda in water on itchy areas. But Claritin hasn't seemed to do anything for it or for me.
Which makes me wonder if this has to do with different strains. I know someone who gobbles up manganese by the bottlefull! And I couldn't care less.
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Robin, you may need to take the Claritin D that you get from behind the pharmacy if you aren't on that one.
The over the counter stuff has never worked for me.
Also, we need to know about dosing size. I would imagine we need to take the highest, safest dose possible.
Posted by EyeBob (Member # 12572) on :
Actually, the better question is which form of Bb was in the test tubes that were treated with the ingredient in Claritin. If there were spirals, or L shaped or cysts, or all 3?
Posted by poppy (Member # 5355) on :
Good questions. This group is pretty smart about evaluating these things.
Just recently I read something about anti-histamines which made me think I shouldn't be using them. Unfortunately my lyme brain did not retain that info.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Wow, I met a woman recently who told me she used to live in Germany and overnight she went downhill (described some lyme like symptoms to me, but I said nothing about lyme).
She thought she was allergic to all the beautiful flowers there, so she took claritin and felt better overnight. She's been on it ever since (think she said 10 or 15 years), so I'm not sure if it just suppresses lyme, or maybe additionally she was allergic to the flowers.
I remember a few years ago when I got bit I took some zyrtec and felt like I was back to my old self. I was so happy for about a day. Unfortunately, my throat started to close up so I stopped, but my throat did that with other things back then too. My immune system was completely out of whack from the lyme and co infections.
Also, ten years ago we moved to a house that had deer living in our yard, and I had lyme symptoms but didn't know about lyme back then. I also had allergies shortly after we moved there that seemed to develop overnight too.
I thought I was allergic to the blooming trees so my doc put me on claritin (prescription), but for some reason it seemed to wear off on me, or maybe I was just bad about taking it (can't remember). I tried allergra too, but can't remember (lyme brain).
It's interesting with the connections here. It sounds like it's worth trying. I'm thinking about trying zyrtec again too. I just remember feeling so good on it.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by Keebler: [QB] -How does the cystic form of lyme receive its nourishment? Does it have "respiration" as well? Or might it "hibernate" so to speak?[QB]
Originally posted by Keebler:
From what I read it does not need oxygen. Which is why it hangs out in those hard to reach places.
B. burgdorferi uses glucose and other similar carbohydrates as its main energy source
B. burgdorferi does not contain genes or enzymes for the TCA cycle, oxidative phosphorylation or an electron transport chain. Instead, it produces ATP solely by using substrate-level phosphorylation and achieves reducing power using the pentose phosphate pathway (Fraser).
I would be exited for this as a treatment for the spirochete or the cell wall deficient form, but am wary of it as a treatment for the Cyst, since the Cyst is dormant.
I would assume dormancy means it is not metabolically active, and in this form it can survive antibiotics, starvation, pH changes, temperature variation, etc.
Maybe in combination with a cyst buster?
Allergies meds come with their own issues. I take Zyrtec daily for the vertigo my lyme and babesia give me, but it does make me much more fatigued.
Loratidine is thankfully not included in the recent study of allergy meds that caused increased dementia in elederly patients (meds with anticholinergic effects).
I don't want to take it until we know the dosing that is most beneficial. Otherwise, might be wasting my money, making myself drowsy for no reason, and who knows, maybe reducing its effectiveness longterm in my body?
Posted by paulieinct (Member # 17514) on :
quote:Originally posted by poppy: Just recently I read something about anti-histamines which made me think I shouldn't be using them. Unfortunately my lyme brain did not retain that info.
Recently there have been articles about prolonged use of anticholinergic drugs like benadryl (but not Claritin), Paxil (but not Prozac), and many tricyclic antidepressants being associated with increased incidence of dementia. Operative word here is "associated", not caused by.
It could be that early dementia may have insomnia or depression as a presenting symptom, so patients take benadryl to sleep and immipramine for depression and ten years later they have full-blown dementia.
Posted by paulieinct (Member # 17514) on :
quote:Originally posted by SacredHeart: I'm thinking of the Claritin D gigimac. I'm wondering if it matters which one?
I just looked up the difference between Claritin and Claritin-D. They both contain loratadine although Claritin has twice as much as Caritin-D (10 mg vs 5 mg). Claritin-D has the addition of a decongestant (pseudoephedrine).
It appears that loratadine is the Bb killer. So regular Claritin or loratadine 10 mg. pills would be the way to go. Everything I read says 10 mg of loratadine is the max dose in a 24 hour period. This also indicates it has a relatively long half-life so daily dosing should increase plasma levels over time.
Posted by paulieinct (Member # 17514) on :
quote:Originally posted by Catgirl: Paulie, please let us know how you do on it.
Well, I took one pill last night, and woke up limping with pain in left ankle and right knee!!
How crazy is this disease that feeling worse can mean you're getting better??!!
Posted by paulieinct (Member # 17514) on :
Allegra and Zyrtec are different drugs and do not contain loratadine.
Posted by jackie51 (Member # 14233) on :
I just bought 30 tabs of Claritin for $24.98 at Harris Teeter. There was a $2 coupon attached that I forgot to give the casher.
Claritin D is behind the counter where I live. One of the ingredients is used by Meth Heads so they check for ID. I think at one point they are supposed to track purchases so they can't go from store to store and buy too much.
I'm going to try it for a few days and see how I feel.
Posted by jackie51 (Member # 14233) on :
They are a nickel a piece on Amazon. Sheesh.
Posted by hadlyme (Member # 6364) on :
Histamine intolerance, Mast Cells that release too much histamine in your body will give one the same symptoms as lyme and company.
One of the triggers for the mast cells to release too much histamine into one's body is bug bites.
The 'cure' for the over histamine in one's body is antihistamines and H2 blockers.
30 days ago I started getting hives again, like what I had two years ago that then landed me in the hospital with viral meningitis. I started to panic, but because of another lymie friend that had been diag. with mast cell activation, he told me to get on the histamine wagon.
Diet and Zyrtec and Zantac and whalaa... my hives are gone AND my GURD is gone for the first time in years!
Am I a believer of antihistamines with lyme/fry bug, etc? Yes.
I think the two are connected. My protozoan dr in AZ has always told me to take an antihistamine when a herx comes on. I will be seeing him next week and asking about ALL this for sure. Was already on my list!
If Claritin helps us, we have to look at histamine levels in our bodies. Just my two cents!
My heart beats too heavy and hard with Claritin D.... one side effect that I don't like with it, thus I'm doing Zyrtec. Seems to be working just as good even though it's not the loratadine.
I think that maybe some of my left over lyme/protozoan symptoms are now really too much histamine in my body. Look up the symptoms, you'll be shocked. It has unlocked a life time of weird things in my life and body that now makes sense.
Posted by Maya12 (Member # 36392) on :
So could you actually herx from taking Claratin?
Posted by Rhiagel (Member # 21880) on :
"Desloratadine exhibited potent borreliacidal activity in vitro at and above 78 μg/mL (250 μM). Currently, desloratadine is prescribed at 5–10 mg dose. A 250 μM dose would roughly translate into 400 mg/day. The mean plasma concentration of desloratadine in human blood after 5 mg or even up to 40 mg dose is about 2–5 ng/mL.40 Thus, achieving borreliacidal concentrations of desloratadine in blood are challenging and 250 μM concentration of desloratadine in vivo is physiologically irrelevant."
It looks like you'd need to take 40 10mg pills a day to potentially kill it and it has limited BBB passage. Back to the drawing board... Posted by droid1226 (Member # 34930) on :
Doesn't sound completely impossible to get 400mg a day in your body...Early clinical trials of the drug showed no side effects or benefit at 16x recommended dose(for it's intended antihistamine/allergy use) at 160mg..
I would not suggest taking the Claritin D .. and thanks paulie for the info on the dementia. I thought I had read something negative about it but couldn't remember.
Maybe Zyrtec would work like the claritin?? Who knows??
hadlyme... I may also have the mast cell problem and have hives. Thanks for the info on the drugs you took. I've been trying to do without additional drugs as I hear they can be counter-productive.
I have found the most help by avoiding salicylates .. they seem to really cause the most trouble.
Robin .. I'll message you.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Make sure it's not ototoxic before embarking on any adventure. I've not had energy to look and am not intending to use it myself, so have to limit my output.
Neil Bauman's 3rd edition of "OTOTOXIC DRUGS (and etc.)" is important for all households.
the detail may not be on the web but it's always good to first do a search to include all three:
name of Rx, OTC, or herb
Bauman
Ototoxicity
for a different search, include other symptoms of vestibular involvement such as Tinnitus &/or Hyperacusis, etc. -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Went ahead and did that. Leaving that "formula" above as a pattern for other searches. Found this right away.
Tinnitus is one sign of damage. And it may not stop with just tinnitus but also affect other vestibular functions.
Much more in the book but here is a shorter list:
“Prescription Medications, Over-the-Counter Drugs, Herbs & Chemicals Associated with Tinnitus”
Claritin listed bottom of page 8 & top of page 9 -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Claritin may decrease dizziness (at first) as it dries out excess fluid in the ears and, in that effect, we might be fooled into thinking that it can't harm the ears. But it's not quite that simple.
If one must take something that is ototoxic in nature, try to limit the total number of such items.
And be certain to include good liver support. It may (or may not help) but it's about the only chance we have to try to decrease the toxicity involvement.
More about all that and how vestibular function affects everything we do from balance, walking, talking, reading, writing, thinking, driving- even sleeping (hard to rest if inner ear is messed up) . . . .
LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links, too. -
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
My ears have been ringing constantly anyway. I'm assuming its a part of the herx from my new meds.
So look, if I'm not better in eighteen more months I'll take the forty pills a day, or what ever it is, and report back if I live. =)
I'm not really overly concerned with ODing on anything, or side effects considering how painful this disease is. I can live with my ears ringing the rest of my life if the lyme dies. DIE DIE DIE DIE
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Tinnitus is a often sign that further damage can happen. Tinnitus can also zoom to levels few can image before that actually happens. It's driven some to end their lives, and I completely understand how that can be.
Damage from ototoxicity may start with tinnitus being a sign but it can also involve much more than just tinnitus. Please learn about the dangers to the vestibular system and know what may (or may not) help.
Once the inner ear / vestibular system is damaged, often, there is no going back. And vestibular damage, even without lyme, can be a very miserable existence. -
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo: I would not suggest taking the Claritin D .. and thanks paulie for the info on the dementia. I thought I had read something negative about it but couldn't remember.
Maybe Zyrtec would work like the claritin?? Who knows??
Ive taken zytrec daily since 2002. I would say, no it doesn't help! It is also less able to cross the blood-brain barrier (hence you are not as drowsy on it). Th benefit is it can last 24 hours, but it never helped my lyme.
Posted by Kudzuslipper (Member # 31915) on :
when I have really back allergies, my dr. has me take claritin in the morning and zyrtec at night.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by paulieinct:
I just looked up the difference between Claritin and Claritin-D. They both contain loratadine although Claritin has twice as much as Caritin-D (10 mg vs 5 mg). Claritin-D has the addition of a decongestant (pseudoephedrine).
It appears that loratadine is the Bb killer. [/QUOTE] - - - That's what I'm saying .. adding the D would not be necessary and could be damaging.
Posted by droid1226 (Member # 34930) on :
Adding the D would be deadly at that dose. That much pseudoephedrine?
I'm ramping up..Don't care about ototoxicity. Half the drugs I'm on have that side effect.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Ototoxicity is not a side effect. Side effects usually are fleeting and usually only during treatment.
Ototoxicity is about damage that can be permanent to the nerves, tissues in the inner / middle ear region. -
Posted by droid1226 (Member # 34930) on :
There's not much more ototoxic than NSAIDS like advil and tylenol, plus a bunch of antibiotics.
I'll stop at my ceiling, I'll figure out what it is when I get there.
Just seems to make sense and nothing has done this to a spirochete in a petri dish ever. Or at least in this manner. Done floating around.
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
So Droid you are going to do it?
Posted by droid1226 (Member # 34930) on :
Yes, but slowly. I'm going to do it at 2mg a day. I started yesterday with a 10mg pill so today I'll take 12mg and so on. I've never reacted to things like benadryl or allegra so I'm don't have much confidence.
I also have a friend doing it so I'll post any findings good or bad.
Petri dishes are a lot different than a biological being so I don't know. It's worth a shot. Who knows, maybe it clears out my sinuses at least.
Posted by jb151 (Member # 43170) on :
This article has been posted/shared pretty much everywhere at this point. I have read multiple posts from people saying that it didn't do anything when they were taking it for something else and had Lyme at the time etc etc. Also read a few posts from people that their LLMD actually tried this out on a few patients and saw no results.
Very possible that it is the same as everything else with Lyme, what works for one will not work for the next person.
My gut says it is not worth trying it, but if it works for anyone i would try it... lol...sigh.
Lyme...........sigh........
Then of course there is the other angle, is Lyme really the thing causing the issues, or is it a combo of everything a person might be infected with?
What about Babesia, Bart, EBV, Myco, Lepto, Echv, etc etc.
Then parasites.............
Then other viruses.......... Varicella, HSV etc etc.
then you have potential detox/methalation pathways blocked and this can be different for each individual.
I highly doubt Claritin is the answer and can address all of the above.........
Basically saying, let's assume Claritin cures Lyme. A person takes it and Lyme is cured. Said person still feels like **** because it didn't cure the other 50 things wrong.
I mean i would try it if i see some positive results, but for now i am going the Cannabis Oil route..........
Also, what if it is just a marketing ploy, BAM!!!!!! 200% increase in sales within a week...........
After all the article did quote the CDC as a source........
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Keep us posted Droid. Praying for positive results.
Posted by droid1226 (Member # 34930) on :
I look at it different. I've accepted that there are dozens of factors on why I'm sick.
This website is called Lymenet.com....How many of us are sick because of the spirochete alone? Probably none.
Almost every human has yeast, parasites, viruses, bacteria coursing through their blood. But the body itself can deal with it.
There are thousands, if not millions, of people exposed to bartonella...but their bodies keep it in check.
So Jb...That is awesome that you are using the oil to help the body heal itself.
I've tried so many different things, this is just one. And I surely didn't help the makers of Claritin out. I bought the Wal Mart generic for 2.64 for 20 pills of 10mg. I also think that it could help my sinuses. If it does nothing, I'm out 3 bucks.
If I can get 1% better each time or 2%....It all works for me. I'm not naive enough to think that starving the spirochete alone will cure me. But if it works it'll be one less battle my immune system has to fight.
Sorta like if you are in water up to your nose. If you dip down one inch, you drown. If you go up an inch, you are a normal healthy human that can breathe. It's like we are all in that bubbling, barely breathing stage. Take out one factor at a time and maybe, just maybe, we can be healthy again.
Thank you Sacred.
Posted by jb151 (Member # 43170) on :
I hear ya.
I think your analogy of being in water is accurate.
I also believe that most everyone is infected with a majority of these things, and their immune system just keeps it all at bay.
I am not a believer that all this can be cured, and that we all need to get to remission and let our immune system then take over and just keep it all under control.
EBV would be an example of this. Millions of people get EBV each year, mostly as a child, then it goes dormant and they live their lives. But.....if Lyme or other hell breaks loose then it all becomes an issue.
The entire thing is frustrating to say the least....
I am with you, if you can get 1% here or there and then it all adds up.
Also, i feel everyone's pain that has Lyme and Co. It is impossible for a normal/healthy person to even begin to understand what any of this is like.
As far as the oil goes, just started a week ago, so going to give it months and see what happens.......
Posted by BobG (Member # 39642) on :
One problem I see is the inability (or limited ability)of loratadine to cross the blood brain (bb) barrier. This is why it is non drowsy. However, it may turn out to be useful in conjunction with antibiotics by attacking biofilm and cyst forms elsewhere in the body. Most microbial cyst or spore forms do maintain some metabolic, albeit very low, activity. Additionally, persisters can often be induced by activators that induce them to take on the vegetative form again. Once vegetative, the cells would be much more amenable to attack from the loratadine. Maybe someday our tax dollars will actually be used at the CDC to actually do research that actually helps people to actually get over the disease.
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Just my wild theory Bob, but I personally believe that since we are the last well armed, freedom loving, private gun owning population in the world, with the exception of the Swiss, that the powers that be want us sick. GMO food, ect.. ect..
For instance, I'm thirty-five years old and I didn't know ANYONE with a peanut allergy. When I was teaching this past decade I saw food allergies increasing EVERY YEAR. Every successive year I was having to be more cautious with what I gave my students.
My five year old sons immune system is totally shot. Why? His mom's immune system is top notch and before I got lyme I was totally healthy.
Anyway, I could go on and on. It doesn't really matter. I'm looking at Red Reishi Mushrooms in order to make tea, and boost all of our immune systems.
Posted by BobG (Member # 39642) on :
One thing to keep in mind is that getting to a concentration in the body to get near 100% kill doesn't mean it couldn't be an effective conjunctive therapy. Lower concentrations over extended periods of time can be effective as well.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by SacredHeart: Just my wild theory Bob, but I personally believe that since we are the last well armed, freedom loving, private gun owning population in the world, with the exception of the Swiss, that the powers that be want us sick. GMO food, ect.. ect.
I am at a loss for what guns have to do with public health or GMOs. The corporate players and politicians accomplish more with keeping us poor and uninformed. Though increased sickness would surely aid their cause (and probably why they are not too concerned with the public access to healthcare).
I support gun ownership, but, it seems the more guns we have, the more excuses the cops have to shoot first ask questions later. Unintended consequence, I suppose. The government can always respond with more violence and firepower.
quote:For instance, I'm thirty-five years old and I didn't know ANYONE with a peanut allergy. When I was teaching this past decade I saw food allergies increasing EVERY YEAR. Every successive year I was having to be more cautious with what I gave my students.
I really wonder, antibiotics were such a godsend, but as someone who was on years of antibiotics for acne, my immune system is toast. Add in all the pesticides and chemicals, its a wonder our immune systems function at all.
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Feel free to private message me Maia. I would be happy to discuss geopolitical history with you. God Bless.
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Droid, how goes the use of Claritin?
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Jethroj,
I appreciate your concern. However, we could list the side effects for many of the drugs we take, some more dangerous than others.
Droid, I am interested in how you are doing, and what dosage you are up to. Did you decide to stop?
I met with my LLMD today. I'm going to start taking the typical dose for my allergies. I'll take what ever small improvement I can get.
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Jethroj,
I do appreciate all of the information you have sent me on Bart. I have an excellent LLMD that is keeping tabs on my blood work, including my liver function.
Regarding Bartonella, I'd love to know about this new protocol, but it seems I have to pay money to get it. I have no clue who is selling it, or how they are qualified to tell me about it?
I should hope that if I found a potential, natural cure to something, that I would not try to profit off the information, but share it freely.
Perhaps you already bought the information and began using the protocol yourself, and you have gotten well?
Anyway, please let me know. God Bless.
Posted by TNT (Member # 42349) on :
How's it going, Droid?
Posted by 'Kete-tracker (Member # 17189) on :
I tried the stuff back in '95 in Canada, when it was OTC up there but not down here (quite yet).
It did NOTHING for my hayfever (mostly to grasses), even when I doubled the dose. SO... I went back to Clortrimeton. But I have maybe 20 tablets from past years when I re-tried it (upon recommendation of my PCP) for a particular symptom I was having at the time. Does this stuff... "loratadine", have a shelf life at room temperature? Anyone?
Oh, & here's some interesting stuff- from "Wiki"- on the drug's history:
Schering-Plough developed loratadine as part of a quest for a potential blockbuster drug: a nonsedating antihistamine. However, by the time Schering submitted the drug to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for approval, the agency had already approved a competitor's nonsedating antihistamine, terfenadine (trade name Seldane), and, therefore, put loratadine on a lower priority.[3]
Loratadine was approved by the FDA in 1993.[3] The drug continued to be available only by prescription in the U.S. until it went off patent in 2002.[citation needed] It was then subsequently approved for over-the-counter sales. Once it became an unpatented over-the-counter drug, the price dropped significantly.
(NO surprise there! -M)
Posted by NJFitnessGuy (Member # 30886) on :
Is prescription Claritin more effective than over the counter Claritin?
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
I have not heard back from anyone regarding upping the dosage, but I am very interested. I'm taking one pill a day myself.
I think the prescription actually has less loratadine in it NJFitnessGuy, so the cheap stuff works best for our purposes.
Some people have warned against taking more, but chemo for cancer isn't exactly safe either. I have not tried it myself yet.
If I do ever attempt it I will post my progress and side effects.
Posted by BobG (Member # 39642) on :
Keep us informed of any Bay Area Lyme results. The clinical trial is exploratory and hasn't been initiated yet. You would think our government would take a more proactive stance on this kind of research.
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Nah Bob, the government is busy spending money on research to see why many lesbian couples are obese. No joke. Meanwhile we are dying.
Posted by WPinVA (Member # 33581) on :
I wonder if this could be one of the reasons why some people respond to the first three weeks of abx and some don't. Perhaps the responders are on Claritin (or some other drug that kills lyme that we don't even know about yet!)
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Possible WPinVA. There are just so many variables. I was impressed with how Cowden developed his protocol because he tried to keep
very close tabs on every possible variable.
We are all pretty much in the same boat. I wish all lyme doctors would document those kinds of things so throughly.
Maybe they do and I'm not aware of it.
Posted by fitnesskelly (Member # 45806) on :
The article (from original link) has been removed or moved.
This is fascinating because I also take Loratadine every day and have for years...and I feel awful and have lots of pain, but am not bed ridden and not having troubles with weight loss.
Here's the interesting part - right before I got sick, I stopped taking the Loratadine for a few months. I was feeling at my very best health and had been trying to cut out any chemicals I was taking. So I quit the Loratadine for a few months...then I got really sick and it's been downhill ever since. Hmmmmm...
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Sounds like you should add it back fitnesskelly.I have considered doubling and tripling the dose just to see what happens.
I don't think even that amount would be enough though. I forget how much one would have to take daily to put a huge dent in lyme.
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Remember they think Claritin can "kill", "helps kill" and can "treat" the Borrelia bacteria.
They don't say it is a "cure" for Lyme disease. Big difference.
If you want to use Claritin there are "dollars off" coupons at their website to print.
Also, because I saw it, I gotta say... Please do NOT take more than the maximum recommended dose. It could be dangerous. Always follow the labels directions.
Posted by ducwidow (Member # 46363) on :
New member with Claritin experience. My son, 23, newly diagnosed with chronic lyme. Our doc had just come back from a conference where Claritin was discussed. The dosage recommended to us was: Claritin non drowsy. 10mg twice daily. Along with this he is using lauricidin and lyme transfer factors. He is also using Hbot and dry sauna 2-3 times/week. This is his 3rd month on Claritin. So far his herxing runs in a timeline similar to the lunar cycle. The first month of Claritin he experienced vomiting, diarrhea and then broke out in hives starting at his feet and traveling upwards. We stopped the Claritin thinking he was having an allergic reaction, took photos to the doc who says this is a good thing. The next month his symptoms were the same but no vomiting. The hives last 3-5 days and then he is good til the next full moon. He goes back for blood work next week.
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Ducwidow, thanks for the info. I actually upped mine to twenty mg a day because a doctor once told my wife she could take up to
thirty mg a day. I'm thinking about upping it again soon. Do you have a link from the lyme conference at all? Tahnks so much for posting.
Posted by ducwidow (Member # 46363) on :
I do not, but when we go in to see the doc I will ask her!
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
awesome thanks =)
Posted by Christopher J (Member # 46401) on :
Just wanted to post an update and status as a long term Lymie that started Claritin. First of all, after tons of research before I started, Claritin is 110% safe at doses multiple multiple times the 10 mg allergy dose. In one of the published studies required by the FDA, single dose daily doses of 160 mg did absolutely nothing at all to the patients. And by the way, those of you freaking about the dosage, these Claritin tabs are just tiny. Im so used to honkin 500 mg to 1 g antibiotic pills of every type of antibiotic from Zithromax to Amoxi to you name it. Ive been around the block on lyme abs and this claritin is baby stuff.
So on to my update. I am now at 50 mgs Claritin BID (that means twice a day). That means 100 mg per day total. No negative side effectives. Started out with 10 mg once a day, increased to BID, then I went 30 BID, and now Im up to 50 BID. Major massive herxes the first week plus each time I increased doses. This sh- treats lyme. Simple as that. And believe me I know. So from my understanding it cuts off manganese from the Lyme using a metal transporter borrelia has. I also removed all manganese foods from my diet. Im also on a whole host of other antibiotics, so Im not going to say Claritin alone is a magic bullet, but I am doing a controlled test where Claritin is the only thing I added new and so yeah it does work. Good luck yall. Ill keep ya posted, Im on week 2 of 50 BID, will likely go up a bit more
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Awesome, thanks Chris. I guess I need to dose mine up to thirty mg a day, and keep working up.
Keep us posted. DIE LYME DIE
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Christopher,
Did you eliminate all magnesium from your diet and supplements? I take two grams of the stuff a day, but I think your body needs it.
Also I would think that high doses of the claritin would stop the bacteria from absorbing it, and free it up for your body to use?
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
I'm taking Magnesium Malate. I thought that the study showed that the claritin stopped the lyme bacteria from using magnesium?
Posted by Christopher J (Member # 46401) on :
Manganese not Magnesium. Claritin blocks Manganese absorption by Borrelia.
Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
I tried taking a 10mg tablet of regular Claritin today. More tired with brain fog than usual.
At least I tried. Always have been sensitive to meds.
I'll keep taking my nystatin and cefuroxime. They are working slowly, but surely to dig me out from my current relapse. There is no fast fix.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Do NOT stop taking magnesium!
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
I have to be really careful because of high b lood pressure. everything seems to raise it.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Mn accumulates in the mitochondria and inhibits oxidative phosphorylation (= normally make about 36 ATP using glucose and oxygen - simplified). Now the only way the cell can remain viable is to rely on glycolysis (2 ATP) - or does it? Keep reading.
Does this (oxidative phosphorylation inhibited) then -> mitophagy = degradation of mitochondria by autophagy = self destruct...which might provide Bb with additional nutrients - the "yummies" (proteins) that make up the mitochondria = powerhouses serving as food for Bb
-> upregulation of new mitochondria being made via PQQ/mtDNA transfer from a donor cell...
repeating the same process over and over, i.e.,
Mitochondria take up Mn (*temporarily* robbing Bb of same), oxidative phosphorylation shuts off, but glycolysis stays on. Mitochondria die off and Bb "feeds" on the some of the "garbage" (including Mn), and replacement mitochondria "happen" via mtDNA shuttled to the infected cell to create more mitochondria.
"We report that tumor cells without mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) show delayed tumor growth, and that tumor formation is associated with
***acquisition of mtDNA from host cells.***"
In other words Bb infected and/or cancerous cells (Bb can infect HeLa cancer cells) triggers mitochondrial DNA shuttling = horizontal transfer between cells.
This might explain it better (healthy cell "donates" mtDNA = mitochondrial DNA to unhealthy cell):
Look at what is right below the mitophagy and cancer paragraph...
We've known that for a long time, right?
Posted by ukcarry (Member # 18147) on :
SacredHeart, it is borrelia's usage of manganese, not magnesium, that Claritin affects.
Posted by foxinsox (Member # 46482) on :
I have not read through all these replies so I don't know if this was already covered, but I researched thoroughly into Claritin after I read about it's so-called ability to kill Lyme (or rather, to starve it).
Claritin was tested on rodents in massive doses. The amount equal and necessary for humans to achieve the same result would be far past the level of an overdose.
I called and questioned my LLMD in LA, who has been treating Lyme for 30+ years, about the study to see what he knew about Claritin...He said the exact same thing.
The study was released prematurely and really should not have been interpreted in the way it was by the Lyme community. An average dose of claritin, or even a double or triple dose, would have absolutely no effect on Borrelia.
The amount of loratadine would be far too small to make a difference. It has also not been completely proven to have a true effect. If Claritin truly kills Bb, or in any way prevents it by blocking manganese, it does so in such huge amounts that it would overdose a person before it had any effect.
If anyone is feeling results from Claritin, it is a placebo effect.
Posted by marcholland81 (Member # 45458) on :
@marnie
regarding resveratrol; it has extreme low bioavailability. There are some liposomal formulations on the market but no-one knows how effective they are.
Further I don't understand a thing from your story. Maybe you can explain in layman's terms what you are trying to say.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
My "take" on Claritin (I'm hopeful):
The following is very long (about 38 pages printed out), but if you want to work with me and try to figure out what is going on, please try to muddle thru this. I will translate terms you may not understand with some links as necessary.
It may be helpful if you cut, paste and drop this into a MS word file and print it out to read slowly, multiple times if necessary to grasp all of the information.
Claritin is an inverse agonist ("helper") of the H1 receptor (one of 4 histamine receptors).
Inverse agonist means it locks onto the same receptor, but induces a pharmacological response *opposite to that agonist.*
Okay, so what does an agonist do that Claritin works opposite of?
The H1 receptor agonist
2-(3-chlorophenyl)histamine
***activates Gi proteins in HL-60 cells***
Okay, so Claritin, working opposite, INACTIVATES Gi proteins in...HL-60 cells.
Okay, first,what the heck are HL-60 cells?
HL-60 cells are predominantly a neutrophilic promyelocyte (precursor). Neutrophilic is an adjective describing a neutrophil = an abundant type of granular white blood cell that is highly destructive of microorganisms. Other compounds like 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3,
12-O-tetradecanoylphorbol-13-acetate (TPA) and GM-CSF
So if Gi is inhibited in HL- 60 cells via Claritin metabolite, no new neutrophils and monocytes are created because the growth of them has been inhibited.
In other words,
***Claritin inhibits Gi in the precursor (HL - 60 cell line) which normally progresses to become to neutrophil and monocyte-like cells.***
Now...about inhibiting Gi in those (HL -60) cells, then what?
Gi-protein inhibitor...induces
senescence-associated beta-galactosidase positive cell formation through CREB phosphorylation.
Senescence = the irreversible growth arrest of cells
Beta galactosidase -> growth arrest?
Guess what...
Furthermore, when lacZ is expressed from the ospC promoter,
***β-galactosidase activity is detected only in B. burgdorferi clones that express ospC, ***
and it accurately monitors endogenous gene expression.
OspC is the form Bb takes when it is leaving the tick's stomach. Two proteins "coat" that outer surface protein C. They are SALP15 and p8. Both of these proteins interfere with our immune system functioning (especially p8 which inhibits mannose binding lectin - the first necessary step in the defense system).
Bb downregulates OspA and upregulates OspC - temporarily. Then OspC goes down and OspA goes up.
When Lac Z is "called for"... up goes OspC.
The lac operon allows for the effective digestion of lactose ***when glucose is not available***.
The gene product of lacZ is β-galactosidase which cleaves lactose, a disaccharide, into glucose and galactose.
This dual control mechanism causes the sequential utilization of glucose and lactose in ***two distinct growth phases***, known as diauxie.
Wiki.
OspA for one growth phase, OspC for the other?!!!
Going back to OspA and OspC...
For our DOGS…
Nobivac (trademark) Lyme
The vaccine contains a traditional isolate
targeted at OspA and
a unique isolate proven to induce high levels of Borreliacideal antibodies to OspC1
(Which maybe why the human vaccine based solely on OspA didn't work. Oops, needed to address OspC1 too.)
Let's go back for a moment to Gi - inhibited.
Those here who know me, know I was obsessed with finding out which protein/enzyme in the Western Fence Lizard is capable of destroying Bb within the ticks feeding on that lizard while it hunts for insects to eat at night.
For newbies...that lizard has a bright blue (cyan colored) belly and lounges around all day in the sun. At night it hunts for lots of various insects to eat. It has to be able to see in the dark...to capture as much light as possible to find its prey.
Hence, it has a LOT of eye rods which produce rhodopsin = visual purple. It is a pigment-containing sensory *protein* that converts light into an electrical signal.
(The WFL also has a prominent pineal gland, so my initial reaction was...melatonin.)
When Dr. Lane boiled the lizard's blood, the protective factor was lost. He said it was likely a protein/enzyme since they are easily destroyed by heat. He never said WHICH protein/enzyme/other.
Our eye cones enable us to see colors. The rods help with night vision.
Now are you ready for this?
And finally, we show that the
***rhodopsin also forms stable complex with Gi.***
A stable complex would prevent/inhibit Gi in HL- 60 cells from working, right?
Okay...so much for "I told you so."
About impacting the HL -60 cells and preventing them from growing into neutrophils and monocyte-like cells.
Don't we need neutrophils and monocyte-like cells?
Why does Bb trigger the recruitment of neutrophils (via the cytokines)-> arthritis?
"The infection generally responds well to antibiotic therapy;
however, if it is *left untreated*, infection can result in various pathologies, most commonly an inflammatory arthritis characterized by cellular infiltration into the joints,
predominated by neutrophils and macrophages."
But what if Bb has been destroyed, yet the inflammatory condition continues on - self perpetuating?
We know Mg levels DIVE at the outset of lyme and continue to spiral down...like there is no stopping it.
I need to digress a moment and tell you a true story.
A close friend was on Lipitor and Metformin for high BP and late onset diabetes. (His doctor did not tell him to take CoQ10 when on the statin.)
He developed a very serious condition called Rhabdomyolysis. That is the name of a condition where muscle cells are destroyed. It nearly killed him (kidney failure is one of the serious consequences).
Despite going OFF the Lipitor and Metformin, the muscle cell destruction continued. His creatinine levels were thru the roof.
After many days in the hospital, he became fed up and checked himself out. Needless to say, he contacted other doctors.
FINALLY he was put on high dose steroids. Slowly he began to recover and began physical therapy - first with an aide. He now exercises 2 hours a day (lives in a community with fitness equipment and a pool).
Of course, he lost about 60 pounds (was 280)and now his cholesterol and diabetes are totally under control - without meds. He is slowly titrating off the steroids under a doctor's care.
The point I am trying to make is that even when an infection/toxin (in his case, the drugs) is gone/withdrawn, sometimes the destruction continues.
It appears once inflammatory cytokines/ destruction kicks in, it is challenging to halt the process.
Inflammation is absolutely necessary for healing to take place. It helps signal the cells that are the "garbage collectors". But ongoing inflammation is bad, really bad.
I will acknowledge that in some cases, Bb may still be present (not just left-over pieces of it).
However, sometimes the tetracycline class of drugs may be less effective for some gene-types. What comes to mind is persons who have hereditary hemochromatosis - excess iron in vital organs such as the liver, heart and pancreas. All tetracyclines form insoluble complexes with calcium, magnesium, *iron* and aluminium, which markedly reduces absorption.
The following link discusses a patient given tetracycline for an infection who had hemochromatosis.
"Parasites hunt us for our iron; cancer cells thrive on our iron. Finding, controlling, and using iron is the game of life. For bacteria, fungi, and protozoa, human blood and tissue are an iron gold mine. Add too much iron to the human system and you may just be loading up the buffet table."
Although Bb does not use iron to replicate, the excess iron likely would bind to "normal" doses of tetracycline and thus be less effective in clearing Bb and co-infections.
So the question is...can Claritin (metabolite of) destroy Bb (via interfering with Bb's Mn transport protein) that may be camped out in HeLa cells or macrophages (think of them as Pac Men - gobbling up the "garbage")or in endothelial cells (line the blood vessels) and/or in fibroblasts?
Or does it work by lowering the number of neutrophils and/or monocytes which, as bystanders, horizontally transfer to the infected cell some mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA)delaying the destruction of Bb's "home"?
In the case of Bb infected HeLa cells (immortal cancer cells that originated as a result of the virus HPV)- cancer drugs and therapy are going to be needed.
But even with those powerful modalities, some protection from excessive inflammation will be wise.
Although some anti-inflammatory drugs alone have the ability to act as anti-cancer agents or simply to help decrease progression.
About the situation where viable Bb is camped out in macrophages. (Bb is not the only pathogen that can survive in macrophages - HIV, TB, etc. can too.)
First of all it is important to know how Bb is protecting itself from destruction.
One of the ways is due to Bb having a protein called SOD (superoxide dismutase)as well as a metal transporter protein called BmtA (for borrelia metal ( manganese) transporter A).
This is equivalent to SodA -> Mn-SOD which protects Bb's proteins from being "oxidized" /("fried").
This is another instance of Bb being a lot like us...WE make Mn-SOD in our cytosol (liquid portion inside the cells).
But if Bb is "stealing" our supply of Mn...we can't make enough for "self" and that puts our cytosol DNA at risk for ROS oxidative damage.
We have 2 kinds of DNA. In the cytosol, our DNA comes from mom and dad. In our mitochondria, powerhouses of the cells (many!), the DNA comes USUALLY from our mom only (I found one exception on the internet reported by geneticists. Exception to every rule...)
When persons talk about DNA damaged cancer cells multiplying out of control, they are talking about the cytosol DNA. In cancer, the mitochondria are working, albeit not great.
Hallmarks of cancer cells include their resistance to apoptosis and their mitochondrial dysfunction, but not mitochondrial "death".
In fact, targeting the mitochondria (knocking them off) has anti-cancer potential i.e.,
Antibiotics that target mitochondria effectively *eradicate cancer stem cells*, across multiple tumor types: Treating cancer like an infectious disease...last sentence in summary:
Finally, recent clinical trials with doxycycline and azithromycin (intended to target cancer-associated infections, but not cancer cells) have already shown positive therapeutic effects in cancer patients, although their ability to eradicate cancer stem cells was not yet appreciated.
And the diabetic drug metformin shows promise too (though IMO, there are better choices - berberine HCL w/curcumin and black pepper extract to potentiate curcumin by Swanson).
Bb has ways to spit out drugs (export) drugs that would otherwise do it in. It is called a trans-membrane export pump or Multidrug-resistance efflux pump. We do have some drugs to address that issue.
I suspect Bb triggers the macrophage release of cytokines to benefit its survival.
So we not only have to target Bb, but also Bb's "home" (the infected macrophage) and do as little "bystander" damage as possible.
This is important...
Monocytes' lifespan can switch dramatically, from prolonged survival during inflammation to apoptosis (cell death)
as inflammation resolves.
*Macrophages, in contrast, live up for months.*
(Monocytes can differentiate to become macrophages under certain circumstances.)
The question is...can Claritin inhibit Bb's Mn transporter protein when Bb is camped out in a macrophage?
It appears Claritin can inhibit the formation of neutrophils and monocytes (which can become macrophages), but what about viable Bb already infecting macrophages?
Do the infected macrophages secrete cytokines to recruit neutrophils and monocytes for Bb's benefit?
Do Bb(s)- replicating in the macrophage trigger macrophage autophagy/mitophagy or apoptosis (self "eat"/self destruction vs cell death) and then "escape" to adjacent cells it has "recruited"?
Autophagy (mitophagy = the *selective degradation of mitochondria* by autophagy) may co-occur with apoptosis (cell death). First the powerhouses, then the infected cell.
Autophagy (mitophagy) may partially participate in the execution of macrophage cell death by *enhancing apoptosis* (cell death).
When apoptosis (cell death) is blocked infected macrophages undergo increased autophagy.
Another possibility is that the infected macrophage which is marked for death (and in which the mitochondria are being destroyed via mitophagy),
transfers mtDNA from adjacent cells it has recruited -> "new" mitochondria from the "donated" mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA)
in order to prolong the life of the (cytosol DNA damaged) macrophage thus making it equivalent to a HeLa, immortal, cell.
If so, then all the more reason to stop the recruitment of the neutrophils and monocytes...Bb won't have a "bystander cell" from which to transfer mtDNA.
One last thing - about iron.
While Bb does not use iron to replicate (MANY pathogens do), it does look to use it for quorum sensing and ...
Recent studies have shown that
***sodA expression is regulated by
three iron-dependent
regulatory proteins,***
***Fur (ferric uptake regulation),***
Fnr (fumarate nitrate regulation) and
SoxR (superoxide regulon),
and by the ArcA/ArcB (aerobic respiration control) system.
One of the ways is due to Bb having a protein called SOD (superoxide dismutase)
as well as a metal transporter protein called BmtA (for borrelia metal ( manganese) transporter A).
This is equivalent to Sod + transporter,A = Sod - A (Mn transporter) ->
Mn-SOD which protects Bb's proteins from being "oxidized" /("fried").
Repeating...iron dependent proteins regulate SodA expression. By "stealing" our Mn so our cells make less Mn-SOD, the iron dependent regulatory proteins will kick in.
Borrelia burgdorferi contains a gene that codes for a (me...iron dependent) Fur homologue. The function of this Fur protein is unknown; however, spirochetes grown at 23 (73.4 F) or 35°C (95 F) expressed fur as determined by reverse transcriptase PCR.
Fur may function in B. burgdorferi as a repressor and regulate oxidative stress genes.
Cold lowers oxygen demand and Bb hangs out in cold-blooded ticks where it replicates (OspA?) and in warm-blooded animals. Remember, Bb is not a strict anaerobe – it needs some, but not much oxygen, but prefers less. It can be microaerophilic = requiring oxygen for growth but at lower concentration than is present in the atmosphere.
If I have made errors, feel free to correct them with links please.
Of course, you absolutely should discuss Claritin with your doctor and it wouldn't hurt to also talk to your pharmacist to be sure there will not be drug interactions and skim thru the list of possible side effects (which is as long as most drugs advertised on TV).
Posted by marcholland81 (Member # 45458) on :
@Marnie
Thanks for that. I will have to read it several times and come back to you.
Posted by WPinVA (Member # 33581) on :
I'm actually on Clarinex, not claritin - anyone know if that was included in the study?
I wish I had the brainpower to tackle Marnie's post!
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Bottom line is this:
IF our antibody to Bb's OpsB (outer surface protein B)= IgG1K worked, it doesn't...histamine release would be inhibited!
Bb comes along with a tick histamine release factor...up goes histamine...to counter...a LOT of Mg was dumped. Is that histamine release factor (a protein) the 1st "toxin"?
Unfortunately it takes several days to make antibodies and it takes Mg and Ca to make them, but low and behold, Mg has gone *way down*. My guess....the liver cells take a huge hit from the get-go.
Mg is an anti-histamine, anti-inflammatory and inhibits HMG CoA reductase (works like a statin drug to lower cholesterol and Bb follows the "cholesterol pathway" to make its lipoproteins).
Valiant attempt by self to protect.
Be careful with Claritin...see my post about caution if underlying cardiac condition.
I don't see a problem with increasing Mg intake (spaced out doses to = RDA at least) and taking Claritin.
Thoughts?
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
Marnie, so you're saying Bb stimulates a histamine response in us? I react easily with hives to surfaces and need to rinse my skin with water after so doing. This could be due to upregulated histamine?
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Likely your intracellular Mg level is very low.
There is a tick histamine release factor which maybe the 1st "toxin" we encounter.
As you were typing, so was I. Read my comments above.
Histamine...too much... counter with epi pen or upregulate epinephrine = adrenaline but...
"Epinephrine-induced hyperglycemia"...
ONGOING.
A thought...
Our defense cells have a H1 receptor on them...histamine IMPORT?
But our defense cells apparently also EXPORT histamine.
If we block the import, don't we then block the export (nothing to export) to trigger adrenaline and cause hyperglycemia?
When Bb is in dormant cyst form, is the need for histamine triggering hyperglycemia is less, thus it is exported triggering adrenaline triggering hyperglycemia and cyst form now has "nutrients" (glucose)?
If we block histamine import, do we force Bb into the dormant cyst form?
At which time diflucan + berberine HCL combo might work.
Brainstorming.
[ 08-24-2015, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posted by LymeWife (Member # 46608) on :
Hi everyone! I just registered. My wife had a very rough night last night and I am very worried.
She has yet to recieve an actual Lyme diagnosis, but all signs point to it. A little over a year ago she had 2 tick bites in Pennsylvania. We now live in Colorado and it is much less common out here. In the time since her bites she has been through many specialists, possible diagnoses of everything from MS to Cushing's disease to RA, but no positive tests. Following a dose of corticosteroids her symptoms blew up and have gotten so much worse. Her pain is severe and body wide, pain pills can't even touch the pain. We are taking treatment into our own hands since doctors haven't been helpful. Still have not seen LLMD. We ordered antibiotics, doxy and tinidazole after a lot of research. That was yesterday so we are waiting for their arrival.
In the meantime, we read about Claritin possibly helping fight Lyme, so she has been taking it for several weeks. Since then she has been having some additional, scary symptoms. I am wondering if Claritin can cause herxing because thats what this seems like. Last night she had these intense body spasms and twitches that were extremely painful. She said they felt like shocks. She became very rigid and kind of contorted and yelled out in pain. This happened on and off for about 20 minutes. This was the worst episode yet, but this has happened several times in the past week or two.
Anyone know what is going on? Does this sound like a herx reaction? Something else? What can we do, besides doctors (she is doctored out for the time being after most recent bad experience)? Should she keep taking the Claritin?
Thank you everyone!
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Welcome, LymeWife!! I'm very sorry you had to find us here .. but glad you did!!
Please make a separate NEW post so you will receive more help and input. Not everyone will open this thread and you may miss out on a lot of tips and suggestions.
I have to leave the house right now, but pray that others will step up to help you.
Histamine H1 antagonists and clinical characteristics of febrile seizures
Int J Gen Med. 2012; 5: 277–281. Mohammed A Zolaly
Excerpt:
. . . Seizures or convulsions have been reported in the literature with some first-generation antihistamines (chlorpheniramine, diphenhydramine, pheniramine, and pyribenzamine)
as well as with some of the newer-generation antihistamines (astemizole, cetirizine, fexofenadine, loratadine, and terfenadine). 7–9 . . . -
Posted by LymeWife (Member # 46608) on :
![[Frown]](frown.gif)