My doctor wants me to take Andrographis for acute and chronic EBV. I did a little search and see that sometimes people have anaphylactic reactions to it (though quite rare).
I was wondering if anyone here has any further knowledge about this risk or any suggestions on how to avoid such a reaction. Or if it is simply luck of the draw.
Thanks very much.
[ 08-08-2019, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: eloise ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Read the newer Lyme book and web posts by Stephen H. Buhner where he says that, after many years now, the harsh reactions (while can happen) are even fewer and far between than he first believed when he wrote his first book.
He studied all the reports and found some matters that were not taken into account regarding confounding factors / variables.
There is one poster here at LymeNet who did have a bad reaction to it. Sadly, that can happen with anything for anyone.
Every person's body has multiple differences in how any chemical whether from plant or laboratory might - or might not - be metabolized.
If you notice any skin issues at first, stop it, or at least consult your doctor.
If you have any of the symptoms of an outright allergic attack, seek medical help, of course.
--
I've not studied or read this variable, but I have been studying a lot about plant lectins and oxalates.
How to minimize risk, you ask. Well, ask your doctor.
My thoughts assuming you are already gluten and sugar free,
best to avoid all processed foods or beverages and even all artificial sweeteners, especially aspartame.
it seems that perhaps avoiding (or going very low) on plants that have lectins, especially, and maybe oxalates, too, might give your body a better chance at not reacting badly.
For instance, avoiding nuts (especially peanuts and almonds) and nut products of all kinds, avoiding spinach, some kinds of kale . . . This topic is rather complex so just mentioning that possibility.
More on oxalates search: "Trying Low Oxalates" "Sally Owens"
&" Sally K. Norton" . . . and EONutrition " Elliot Overton"
More on Lectins search: "Dr. Paul Mason" "Dr. Georgia Ede"
--
Fortunately, with no issues at all, though, I have used Androgarphis for many years, many periods of time for long stretches at the top dose of 16 tablets per day (4 x 4). It's been the only thing I could afford at times and it really has helped a great deal.
Of course, I'd likely be better with a more thorough plan but resources curtail. Berberine is also one that I rotate on and off of and it helps, too.
Andrographis also covers a lot of the bases, regarding multiple anti-microbial properties for various of the tick-borne matters on board, not just anti-spirochetal but also helps against biofilm, protozoa, etc.
Read all can from Buhner, most recent works, esp.
However, you are wise to consider possible reactions.
Even without an allergic kind of response, I recall when first staring Androg. at just ONE per DAY . . . with a good full glass of water . . . you could cut it in half if a tablet, or empty out half if a capsule.
I slept for two weeks, it seemed. I was much more tired and the pain was worse for the first few days . . . more than I had anticipated but then that subsided and so many of my symptoms improved.
I credit this for reversing terrible foot sole pain (possibly due to bartonella). It took many months but my feet had been torture for years. Now that I've back down on this or don't take it as often, my feet are still good as long as I wear proper shoes.
The main reason I have slowed down on this is that 14-mo. ago I started a ketogenic diet and after I got into the swing I wanted to see what my body would do without any herbs.
That's a stretch too far just yet, though, I've discovered. So I've added back in my rotation with either Androg. or Berberine. It is better to do combinations if one has the resources and a good LLMD or LL ND to guide.
The best help I found for it: seizure management and sleep. And, after the first two weeks, comfort level in body better.
And my mouth ulcers are so much better with this.
The first week, I peed like a racehorse, though, inflammation was "being released" so to speak.
If you can, try to curtail what activities you can in case you are more sleepy - likely good to rest for the first week or two.
I will come back with other thoughts later. I compiled a whole thread for Andgr. so I'll link that later, too.
But Buhner's most recent words on this are encouraging regarding the number of rash incidents in proportion to all those who have been using androg. over all of time, and now .
. . that the number of those who experience adverse (mostly rash type) reactions -- while, of course, can be / has been bad for them, that the percentage is very small -
and that some of the reports were taken out of context regarding interactions, etc.
I will try to find exactly where I read that (I think in his 2nd ed. his lyme book but am not sure).
- of course, still, as with anything --- start VERY low and VERY slow - give it time before increasing even at tiny amounts
And, when starting any herb, it's good not to be taking others so you can see how this particular one works for you.
If you are on Rx, ask your LL doctor if any might be skipped. Some should not and some don't need to be but timing away from Rx then will help.
At first, take in the middle of a good meal. Later, you may do fine on empty stomach. I do.
& at a time you don't have to be out driving or in top form. that's good for anything new started. See how it works for you. Androg. does have a sedating property to it.
I've been using Planetary Formulas from VitaCost. If that helps. Your doctor may have a preferred brand, though.
Some do not like the taste of a tablet as it gets wet in mouth, but the bitterness does not bother me. I forget the brand but there is a good capsule out there, too.
Be sure whatever brand you use that it is top quality in all ways.
I hope this helps. I know I'm far from concise in my words and you may wonder why I'm not all better yet after so many years. I was dx very late with a very severe case of multiple TBD.
I spent many years on multiple herbal formulas, some from a regular (not LL) naturopathic doctor (who turned out to be lyme ignorant, though, so only minimal help but lost time and lost money).
The Zhang protocol was amazing for me for the 2 month - twice - stints I did with that. While I understand their costs and think reasonable and they did offer me a discount, I could not afford to continue.
I have to say that andrographis has likely saved my life in various ways and it still is doing so -- even if I'm not back to where I'd like to be. I started from a terribly damaged place.
Usually, herbs work best in combination. I do use other support herbs or nutrient supplements, just none as concentrated against the microbial mix.
You might also consider a RIFE machine, perhaps as another way to tackle this.
It also really helps me to be ketogenic (very low carb/ high fat / moderate protein) . . .and a home glucose test meter to see how certain foods affect your levels is a good idea for anyone, I think.
Too much sugar (from carbohydrates) or too much insulin released into the body from certain foods can cause so much pain and also make treating lyme harder. More at Virta Health on the basics.
Diathrive makes the only glucose meter that is affordable for me. Online.
I did have lots of skin issues over the years but none related to andrographis. Turns out that it seems my blood sugar was connected to my rashes. I don't know what it was before when I was eating what I though was healthy black rice, all kinds of legumes, other non-gluten seed / grains . . . but within a week dropping all that, my rashes disappeared.
Another thought about how maybe not just to maximize risk but to enhance success -- if you might have insulin resistance or pre-diabetes, etc.
If there is something going a bit sideways in the body, one more stressor can take that off the rails.
I hope andrographis might work well for you - or some other method or combinations. If one way is not available or does not work - there is always another way to explore, or another, or another.
Take care. -
[ 08-08-2019, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
ANDROGRAPHIS paniculata - LINKS SET -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- I suggested trying andrographis alone so that you can know how your body deals with it.
I would also start it early or middle of the week so that you can call your doctor if you have any concerns.
However, you might want to be sure certain supplements are on board for liver support.
Andrographis, itself, is a liver support, still, ask your doctor what they suggest. It will likely cause a herxheimer reaction and that is why very low and very slow matters.
And if you are not comfortable taking it, ask what else might be suggested -- or how else to support your body.
Olive Leaf Extract "reads" very well against EBV and the Seagate brand of that his helped me at times.
It's more gentle, though I find andrographis a better helper.
LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links, too. -
Posted by eloise (Member # 128) on :
Thank you Keebler! Lots of helpful information.
My doctor is suggesting it for EBV though I do have chronic Lyme/Bart so I’m sure I’ll herx. I just bought the brand you suggested (it was also suggested by the woman at the health food store) and when I get up the gumption I will probably take 1/4 pill and just see what happens.
I think your idea to start it in the beginning of the week makes sense. Thanks for all your thoughts and links. All the best to you.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Eloise,
well, it does cover a lot of bases. 1/4 tablet might not make much difference regarding a herx, yet it's a good idea to take it tiny just so introduce it to your body.
You could also just put it under your tongue with some water and hold that for a minute (very bitter, though) and then spit it out. If all goes well, maybe do that for two days and then swallow it on the 3rd day.
Just an idea.
I came back to clarify my words about low carb - if you might have insulin resistance or pre-diabetes and suggested Virta Health as one place to learn more.
The reason I bring up all of this is that elevated glucose and the resulting insulin push . . . and oxalates and lectins in excess
can all cause irritation to the nerve fibers, etc.
So that could add up to a total overload for the various functions of the nerve fibers, nervous & adrenal systems.
Now, even if you think a lower carb food plan might help, unless blood glucose numbers are high, one need not start out really low in carbs.
A ketogenic diet is 20 grams, total carbs per day.
The low carb / high fat approach can be 20 - 30 generally.
Some do fine keeping it under maybe 50, or even 100 total carbs for the day especially when starting / trying it. To reduce the amounts starchy veggies, grains and legumes alone can be a big help.
One glitch, though, is that some of the greens can have high oxalates and high lectins. The sources I mentioned above will have suggestions for the low-oxalate and low-lectin choices.
About the high fat part, if one has excess adipose tissue to loose, maybe not too high, of course unless to curb seizures, help reverse diabetes, prevent it - or other reasons to go to the very low end (as with keto).
Our brains need fat, but specific fats. Pastured animals, wild fish, pastured hens for eggs, best if possible.
But the kind of fats that can cause so much toxic stress are vegetable oils, such as canola oil, corn oil, - those bottled in an industrial setting with chemicals and high heat. These are not really vegetables but seeds. Explained:
Search: "Nina Teicholz" "Vegetable Oils" at YouTube
and also for "Ivor Cummins" "Are we sinning with Seed Oils?"
A good olive oil and coconut oil . . . and animal fat & certain fish (best if from good source, of course) are stable in our bodies. The YouTube presentations above will explain.
It can be too much to try every action all at once so you don't want to shock your system as much as just decrease the work load with foods that you enjoy but also work for you.
Avocados, though a bit high in histamine, are low oxalate, low lectin and also excellent fat source. Too bad the price is sky high these days, though.
Lacinato kale is lower oxalate, compared to others, too. Being low oxalate should help reduce leaky gut issues that many with chronic stealth infections face.
And when leaky gut is better, less stuff crosses from the stomach into the blood stream where it should not be.
Being low lectin often helps those with neurological issues. which so many with chronic stealth infections also seem to face.
Good luck & Take Care -
[ 08-08-2019, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Just wondering if you have started andrographis and, if so, how it's going. -
Posted by Rivendell (Member # 19922) on :
Well, I am one of those rare persons who has reactions to it. Heart palpitations, can't swallow, drooling. Sure wish I could take it.
I would say, start out with very small dosages and gradually build up over several weeks and pay close attention to how you react. Anything weird, stop taking it.
I think in Buhner's book on Viruses, he mentions elderberry as helpful for EBV. It would be best to get his book.
Posted by eloise (Member # 128) on :
Keebler, Thanks for checking in. I haven’t started yet. Am starting some other things first because I am a bit nervous. Will let you know.
Rivendell: Thanks for sharing that. I think I have Buhner’s book and will take a look. I’m sorry to hear of your reactions to it. those sound like awful symptoms. I hope you have other treatments that are successful.
Posted by Rivendell (Member # 19922) on :
Well, I was using it for lyme, and yeah I use other herbs.
Just go slow. Everyone is different. Good luck,
Posted by still winning (Member # 44439) on :
I was taking Angrographis, as well as other herbals and antibiotics (unfortunately no pure natuaral protocal has ever been effective for me. By the the end of the second month without antibiotics and only on naturals, I will start really going down hill).
I did find Andrographis effective for the brain, again along with the rest of my antibiotic and naturaly therapies.
But I did develop the rash - hives on my head. Very unsightly.
But somehow I felt that even if I kept on the Andrograhis, the rash would go away. I just felt that it wasn't a reaction to the Andrographis, but that the Andrographis was killing spirochetes in the brain and that was the result.
Well my intuition was right, as far as the rash going away. So even though I stayed on Andrographis, the rash completely went away.
I'm not still taking it. A number of years ago, suddenly a number of companies stopped carrying it or "re-introduced" it. Something was wrong. And I felt an extract I was taking was not making me feel right. I think then at least, the goverment got in the act. Just a suspicion. I don't know the situation now.