posted 10 January 2005 06:15               

This topic is based pon the premise that lyme disease affects no other body function. In my case the constant affront of an infective process literally wore out my endocrine function. A vital hormone in the endocrine system is aldersterone. This hormone balances our sodium with other minerals. If you take large amounts of selective minerals and your body isn't making enough aldersterone to offset the mis balance you are creating you will not live past 12 hours. I know because my body no longer makes any aldersterone and my blood work always swings wildly. Although this is not something that most people have to worry about, if one life is lost because of unknown endocrine -problems then is it worth it?
Am I really so unusual? Isn't the adrenal gland and endocrine system the gate keepers for the infective process, deciding which infections are serious enough to launch a war from the immune system? (along with thymus, etc.)

posted 10 January 2005 08:25            

Bb, we know for certain (microbiologist and Romanian abstract), use up our Mg stores.

They are using Na,sodium (also a mineral), and a TON of a normally weak acid to produce hydrogen, to INactivate PFK, an enzyme Bb is dependent on.

But...a low salt diet is Mg "sparing" (this is why low salt is recommended if you have high BP).

This is what is happening...

Mg low, Ca and K rise at first, but eventually they will drop. This change in K (potassium) effects the Na-K pump, the sodium -potassium pump. The flow of these electrolytes in and out of the cells.

Playing with sodium will impact K and you don't wanna mess with K on your own!!!

You can't hold onto Ca or K if your Mg levels are very, very low.

All the electrolytes have to be in balance. Not an easy task!!!

Using another mineral/metal to sub for a missing one doesn't cut it. That's why gold shots for arthritis patients didn't work and lithium for depression helps, but doesn't truly "cure".

posted 10 January 2005 10:06               

I have theory ,that meybe connects marshall protocol with salt theraphy.
Both subjects where read with great interesting and seems to have positive results
With curing Lyme Disease.

It is known tha Salt absorb water and if there is more salt , more water is in body.
If there is more water in a body result is higher blood pressure.

When there is salt deficiency in the body ,kidneys produces special regulating substance
Called ¡§renine¡¨.
Renine is a substance that has ability to disconnect from some peptide 10 amino-acids ,
Which are compared in group called peptide angiotensinogen I.
Angiotensinogen I has ability to gently shrink blood-vessels .

Other little blood-vessels that are placed in lungs produce substance ,that has ability
To disconnect from Angiotensinogen I other 2 amino-acids.

New created by renine ,Aniotensine II is the strongest from all known substances shinking
Blood-vessels.

So we have:
salt deficiency-„³renine „³angiotensinogen I„³angiotensine II
If there is salt deficiency blood pressure is lower (salt makes higher blood pressure) then body
Shrinkes blood vessels using angiotensine II to make blood pressure stable(higher).

Marshall protocol uses drug call ARB (Angiotensine receptor blocker) ,
Because (if i understood it well) believes and it was seen by microscope
that Lyme bacteria creates shapes (see movie http://www.documentary-film.net/auditorium.html)
That were not noticed by pathologist since years and this shapes are very tiny ,
100 times smaller that big Lyme spirochete and they live in fagocytes(body defence cells) ,which should kill the bacteria but they are home for them .
This tiny cocoid forms living in fagocytes directly stymulate production of cytokines
Angiotensine II and 1,25 dihydroxyvitaminum D.

They are known bacterias that have Angiotensine receptors on themselves ,and they use this
Receptors to avoid immune system attack (They act like unrecognized structure as i understood)

Angiotensine receptors blocker(ARB drugs like benicar) blocks angiotensine receptors and makes possibility to immune system track enemy and destroy it.
Seeing schematic above if there won`t be salt deficiency which makes agiotensine II
bacteria won`t be able to use this substance to immitate and will be destroyed.

Tell me please what do you think about it ,is it logic? Did i missed sthink.

I just have hope that bacteria really need salt deficiency to produce angiotensine II.

posted 11 January 2005 10:49            

It takes Mg and Ca to make healthy antibodies...I repeat, healthy ones, that will "fit" (old lock and key analysis)to destroy the bacteria.

Characterization of the physiological requirements for the bactericidal effects of a monoclonal antibody to OspB of Borrelia burgdorferi by confocal microscopy.

The bactericidal effect of Fab-CB2 is not dependent on the induction of spirochetal proteases but is dependent on the presence of Ca2+ and Mg2+.

Supplementation of Ca2(+)- and Mg2(+)-free medium with these cations restored the bactericidal effects of Fab-CB2.
The mechanism by which a Fab fragment of an antibody destroys a bacterium directly may represent a novel form of antibody-organism interaction.

PMID: 9125579 (www.pubmed.com)

A “novel form of antibody-organism interaction?” I don’t THINK so!

"E. Required by immunological process. Magnesium, immunity, and allergy: Mg is required for several steps of immunological reactions
1. Lymphoblastic transformation, a prerequisite of secretion of antibodies by lymphoblasts, requires Ca2+ and Mg2+
2. Mg is required for synthesis of proteins, immunoglobulins included
3. Antibody-induced complement activation is Mg dependent
4. The antigen-immunoglobulin-complement reaction induces degranulation of the mastocyte"
http://www.mdschoice.com/elements/elements/major_minerals/magnesium.htm

Get to the ROOT of the problem...this pathogen, like many others, contains a metalloprotease (enzyme) in its outer cell walls. This enzyme needs a metal/mineral.

Many pathogens use zinc. Bb and bartonella use Mg. Staph uses iron to replicate.

posted 11 January 2005 12:45               

It's very good. I saw TM speaking at ILADS, but this talk went a little deeper, and the slides on the different forms and shapes of the bacteria, as well as the micro-bacterium living in phacocytes is facinating.

I have no idea whether salt deprivation also allows bacteria to get away with this.. it's interesting to think about.

Mo

posted 11 January 2005 14:33               

My husband and I never did Salt and C or Salt and Apple cider vinegar together with antibiotics or any killing agent. That would be an insult to any body.

We never did or do any therapy ongoing, for a long time, without being tested with ART. In fact, all patients are tested with ART b e f o r e they go on any of these
therapies.

We never took supplements continuously without changes or taking a break. Most people become allergic to them after a while. That's the first thing our doctor does when a new patient comes in with sacks of supplements -- allergic or incompatible with 80% of them. Do a pulse test and check for yourself (a blood pressure wristcuff works great). You can test every substance this way! Even your antibiotics.

It is a well known fact that chronic mercury exposure causes low sodium and calcium levels, and magnesium always is replenished with treatment. The kidneys under these conditions lose salt constantly.
If you live, eat and drink on this earth, you have some level of metal toxicity.

So include the Salt & C in that consideration.

I am not a biochemist nor a doctor. I just learned and paid attention over time what works and what gets some people well. To me that's all that counts. It worked for us.
I would never undertake this without approval or recommendation by my doctor. That's why we pay him - to guide us through this. But of course you need a doctor that does not have tunnel vision and whom you trust.

posted 21 January 2005 01:12               

On January 11, Gigi wrote:
"We never took supplements continuously without changes or taking a break. Most people become allergic to them after a while. That's the first thing our doctor does when a new patient comes in with sacks of supplements -- allergic or incompatible with 80% of them. Do a pulse test and check for yourself (a blood pressure wristcuff works great). You can test every substance this way! Even your antibiotics."

posted 21 January 2005 01:50               

Salt is also magnesium wasting. Lymies are already depleted in mag. This kind of huge salt intake would deplete mag even more, possibly causing people to loose what gains they have made.

I like what was posted about salty dog. It does sound like his is a manufactured testimony in order to promote this scam. The same thing happens with rife machine testimonies. I think a lot of the positive testimonies about how great the machines work are from the manufacturers themselves in order to sell their products. Salty dog claims he is near dead from lyme, yet he appears out of nowhere to proclaim how great this is. Buyer beware.

Micul

posted 21 January 2005 02:42               

Also of note: there are dozens of people benefiting from rife machines who have no commercial involvement with them. Testimonials from these people are real, not a scam. There are over 800 members of the Lyme and rife group. Anyone interested in talking to REAL people using rife machines (getting both good and bad results), should join this group:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/lyme-and-rife/

I will stop rambling here. I'm not here to say that rife machines or salt are "the best" treatments or that they are better than antibiotics, or that they are even effective at all. Instead I am simply here to interject that I know for a fact that many of the people who believe in these two modalities (salt and rife) are NOT pushing a scam, and that many people truly have been helped by these treatments.

Although we should be skeptical of layperson testimonials, "mainstream" medicine does not have all the answers. Many people on Lyme net have experienced more improvement with alternative therapies than with mainstream therapies. Many drugs get pulled off the market because of FDA mistakes (Vioxx for example). There are more than a dozen books written by credible professionals about how the pharmaceutical industry and the regulatory industries have too cozy a relationship - if anyone is interested, I can provide the names of some good books.

This doesn't mean that everyone should blindly run to alternative medicine. But, alternative approaches should definitely not be dismissed as nonchalantly as they were by Micul.

Bryan

posted 21 January 2005 13:37               

1) Has been introduced by someone rumored to be Ed Mc Sweegan, the author of the worst papers written about Lyme. (See http://www.quackwatch.com and search "Lyme" if you haven't heard about him before)

2) Has a success rate based on microscopic parasites coming out of various body orifices - Congratulations to all that managed to isolate a MICROSCOPIC parasite from whatever came out!

3) Has made people "feel like they feel" better, but not enough so that they would continue it.

4) May have serious adverse consequences.

posted 21 January 2005 14:50               

Certain white blood cells (WBC) display several distinct mechanisms that may be employed for the purpose of killing invading microorganisms. One of these deserves particular attention in relation to killing the causative agent of LD, namely, the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi.
Neutrophils (a class of WBC) contain two essentially different types of storage granules. Peroxidase-positive granules and peroxidase-negative granules. Peroxidase-positive granules contain myeloperoxidase, an enzyme that uses hypochlorous acid (HOCl) in conjunction with H2O2, providing a source of nascent (atomic) oxygen for the purpose of killing invading organisms.
Peroxidase-negative granules contain a family of large polypeptides (11 to 19kDa) known as the cathelicidins or, in humans, hCAP-18. A segment of this larger or precursor protein (aka a Bacteriacidal Permeability-Increasing (BPI) protein) is proteolytically removed by the enzyme elastase found in peroxidase-positive granules. The better-known substrate of elastase is the elastic prtoein incorporating elastase inhibitors into skin creams, attempts are made to inhibit the activity of this enzyme, thereby decreasing the ageing of skin. In Lyme therapy there is an advantage (described below) to increasing the activity of this enzyme, thereby stimulating the natural antimicrobial system. These short peptides, ranging from 12 to 100 amino acids, have the ability to assemble into larger units that form pores in the membrane surrounding microorganisms, thereby increasing the permeability of those membranes. In humans, one of these microbial peptides has been dubbed LL-37.

posted 22 January 2005 06:02            

I have been on the Salt/C protocol for 5 weeks now, and have never felt better in every possible way. Energy to spare, clear thinking, no aches and pains. Can this protocol cause other problems? Possibly. I'll trade my past 35 years of multiple severe life-threatening problems for just one problem any day!!!

At the end of the day, it's your decision. But for goodness sake use some common sense. Anecdotal stories are fine - including mine - but one person's story shouldn't influence the many success stories coming out about Salt/C.

posted 22 January 2005 11:01               

But, something does strike me as odd about the people promoting it.

In this thread alone, there are basically three people pushing the salt treatment, and they are all coming out of nowhere and don't post elsewhere....not that there's anything wrong with that...

They are:

earthpeace (registered sep 2004),
saltydog (registered sep 2004),
phil rich (registered jan 2005)

We know nothing about these people. For sure they don't have a "record" on LymeNet...not that there's anything wront with that.

In theory, these "guys" could be one or more of the people behind lymephotosDOTcom.

IMHO, anyone popping up on LymeNet for the sole purpose of pushing or speaking positively about some treatment AND who doesn't try to back up their claims in a constructive fashion AND who doesn't participate in other discussions (not that there's anything wrong with that), has very little credibility in my book.

Perhaps "troll" or "ghost" is a proper term for such people.

There has been a few people with some "record" that have spoken positively about the salt treatment.

I'm not accusing anyone of having alterior motives with their posts. Just venting a theory.

I don't know what the people behind lymephotosDOTcom have to gain except acceptance of their treatment program. And I don't see a money trail either, except for the CMC company selling the particular salt pills mentioned.

CMC, btw, was charged in 1994 with lack of sanitary conditions in their warehouse and failure to conform to good manufacturing practices as prescribed by federal regulations.

Interestingly, the lymephotosDOTcom website was updated on 01/11/05. Anyone know what was updated?

posted 22 January 2005 14:02               

I have nothing to sell or promote. The course of treatment someone chooses is their own decision. My decision was to be open minded and talk to people in my area who have got better and find out what they did. The therapies I am currently following are ones based on several discussions from people who are well. Would this regimen work for everyone.. don't know. They are making me better and to me that is what's important. I have seen too many people clinging to treatment modalities that haven't done anything for them and that is their decision. I choose to get well and that is what I am doing.

I hope that all your paths to wellness are short ones and know that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

posted 22 January 2005 14:19               

I started the salt/C protochol 1 week ago. I am not up to 12 grams yet more like 6-10grams a day. Trying to warm up to it.

But I have to tell you I feel better. I am still very sick but my outlook is better. I have more energy and my mind is clearer.

I know it's early. I plan to bump my dose today and tommorow. I will keep you guys posted if you want...

posted 22 January 2005 18:56            

Are there hidden agendas here?? To what end???? Curing lyme disease??? wouldn't that be something.

And by the way, I'm from Sydney, Australia and am more concerned speaking to the people reading this thread than answering silly accusations - so for those people reading ... keep an open mind. Hopefully you'll find your own cure.

posted 22 January 2005 19:10               

Would you mind sharing your Na and Cl numbers?

posted 22 January 2005 20:10               

The vinegar also is very beneficial if you have aluminum toxicity.

To the person who said he/she said is working up to 12 gram of salt, You do not necessarily have to go that high. Go as high as you are comfortable - some people just can't do that much. You will have benefits anyhow, just not as quick. Some people just cannot go that high.

To the doubters, do what you must - but quit complaining and knocking therapies that work for some people. If you are still toxic to the hilt and have not done anything besides antibiotics and a few supplements, I agree that it may be too tough for you, because the die-off is too strong.

Results is what counts - or the proof is in the pudding. I do love complainers..........and the doubting thomases, many of them were here on this board in 2000 when I started to post - they cried then and they are still crying now.
This disease is a challenge, and we know it.