posted 22 January 2005 22:47            

Its strictly antedotal. I was on abx for two years. It helped tremendously, but in the end royally played havac with my GI. I'm sure there are side effects to a whole lot of salt. I do know that I'm experiencing all kinds of side effects with lyme....None of them pleasant.

The site promotes a S L O W rampup of the salt and C, NOT a dive in approach.

I'll certainly check back in some time and report my results. Can't say that I've noticed anything yet positive or negative.

posted 23 January 2005 08:13               

I know you take it with water, but for example do you take it on empty stomach, with food, with specific foods?

And how many do you take at a time?

Na and Cl blood levels anyone?

posted 24 January 2005 08:10               

I take my salt with and without food. I just pop the tablets through out the day. With each salt tablet I take a vit. c and an enzyme capsule. I have not had any diarhea or stomach problems so far. What I have noticed is a slow steady improvement of my symptoms...and it is slow but I will take what ever gains I can get. I snowblowed yesterday for about 2 1/2 hours and felt pretty good aftwards. 2 months ago I would have been layed out for a couple of days aftwerward.

As I said before this may or may not be for you...only you can judge that. Just keep an open mind and visit the sites (there are a couple) that deal with this therapy and do your own research.

Good luck with what ever treatment you are following.

posted 06 February 2005 15:54            

My own response to lymephotos.com was originally curious, because of the parasite link, but skeptical, because I am a scientist and it is my job to be skeptical about grandiose claims, such as curing Lyme with salt. Also, after suffering for over 15 years with Lyme, I was tired of treatments that caused more harm than good.

So I told a friend who has Lyme about the site. He actually tried it and gave me a raving report a few weeks later. In my brain fog I had already forgotten about the lymephotos website and was a bit skeptical of his claims. But he insisted I should try it. He told me that after years of weakness (he also has muscular dystrophy), he suddenly, on the salt, was able to spend a full day helping his father remodel their basement. This was impossible. This was not an email friend, this was a former employee of mine who has become a good friend, we spoke F2F about this, I had to believe that something important had happened to him. I could detect the difference in his energy level.

So I decided to try the salt myself. It was an interesting experience, and I felt something happening, it reminded me of my first week on Doxycycline, years ago. But by now I had so much lyme-induced paranoia about EVERYTHING and was so weak and afraid of any treament that might harm me, that I stopped the treatment when I started getting some heavy herxes. The problem was that the herxes on salt were a bit different than other herxes. I started re-living some of my first symptoms, joint pain, itching where I had the original rashes, and bronchitis. This seemed dangerous, so I stopped, fearful of what the salt might do. Well, believe it or not I also talked my buddy out of the protocol, telling him it might be bad for the kidneys, and he stopped to. We both went down-hill again. And we both forgot about the salt (more Lyme brain-fog). If you have Lyme, you KNOW I am not making this up...

Then a few months later I found a Yahoo group trying the salt/C protocol, and decided it was worth one more try, this time with more support. This time I used extensive mineral and nutrient support, which I had not done the first time. The result is nothing short of a miracle. I will admit that I am still worried about possible harm from the salt, but so far, as long as I ramp-up doseage slowly, and take breaks when I get too much pain, I am always able to tolerate the salt, and the kidneys do seem to be getting stronger. And the Lyme is clearly getting weaker. My anxiety levels have gone down significantly, and I can sleep again, after many years on sleeping pills, I am OFF them. If you have been on the Benzodiazapines, you know that this is significant. Few people get off them.

The Salt is also supporting my adrenals, because I also have been able to go off all other adrenal support, and I have needed DGL or Cortisol every day for several years. But no longer, on the salt. Another significant result. And I am not even up to a full dose yet, this is just at 3-4G per day most days.

I will admit that if you are not ready to self-treat, and try something experimental, maybe you do need to wait a few years until more is known about this, and your health care provider/physician can guide you through it. But if you are already self-treating, and know how to read your body and make adjustments, and have a good way to contol herxes (I use chlorella, lemon, and FIR sauna, others use other measures), then I believe this might help.

One last comment - will somebody PLEASE find a smart and honest PhD research biochemist, and put them on the trail of this treatment!!! Something important about killing or controlling Lyme is being revealed here. It is NOT a scam, I know this. What it IS is a discovery, and the early stages of a powerful insight into the nature of Lyme disease. This is the leading edge. We now need some competent analysis of what is happening.

Medicine is far from an exact science. New insights often come from unexpected discoveries like this. Based on my experience the past few months, I now believe that a study of salt/c will reveal important new dimensions of Lyme and can lead to an eventual way to manage the disease.

posted 06 February 2005 19:29               

I'm still a ways from better. But I feel such great hope knowing I could cook dinner again.

These little things are where I can see the improvement. Ahh the little things that we will never take for granted again... LOL

daniella

posted 31 May 2005 13:12               

Question #1 If salt dehydrates the bacteria vis osmosis to kill them, then doesn't it dehydrate our body cells? Then drinking lots of water to replenish our body cells would also replenish the bacteria's water?

Question #2 What is the purpose of the vitamin C with the salt?

posted 31 May 2005 18:02            

Heres one lead toward support for this protocol:
Growth of infectious and non-infectious B. burgdorferi at different salt concentrations.

Elias A, Bono JL, Tilly K, Rosa P.

Laboratory of Microbial Structure and Function, Rocky Mountain Laboratories, National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, NIH, Hamilton, Montana, USA. aelias@atlas.niaid.nih.gov

Borrelia burgdorferi, the causative agent of Lyme disease, grows in vitro in modified Barbour-Stoenner-Kelly (BSK-H) medium. We have studied the effect of increased osmotic strength of culture media on growth of infectious and non-infectious B. burgdorferi strains B31 and N40.
Relatively small increases in the NaCl concentration of the medium significantly inhibited growth in infectious as well as non-infectious strains.

Growth of low passage, infectious clone B31-4a was more sensitive to increased NaCl concentrations than high passage, non-infectious clone B31-a. Growth of two infectious N40 strains, one low passage (N40-Lp) and one high passage (N40-P31) was more resistant to increased NaCl concentration than growth of infectious B31-4a.

Osmotic strength is an important physical parameter for growth of B. burgdorferi in vitro and could influence its ability to adapt and to establish an infection within ticks and mammals.

PMID: 10048166 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

posted 29 June 2005 05:27               

quote:

---

Originally posted by eric:
Hi, I would like to know how is everybody doing on vit C and salt? Pros/cons?

---

I only started Salt / Vit C 7 weeks ago...great improvement in energy/ stamina....so....much better

But not well at the moment....7 weeks since started the NaCl....(systemic muscle, joint, connective tissue pain now) after making BIG improvements... and last night was kept awake for several hours with pain/creeply crawly thing happening, 'skin itchies', feeling like things moving under the skin, mainly in ano-genital area but back/ thighs, abdomen, but also little sharp stabbing, sometimes more jabbing pain with a wider focus, and pin prick like pains ..that last several seconds or longer. One in particular was inside a nostril a week ago..very sharp needle type pain... felt like something 'outing' ...!!!! Guess mucosa is more sensitive to minute trauma...more nerve endings.......?? A wee wee worm??? Who knows ..has anyone had similar experiences???

Is this the usual description that people starting Salt / Vit c report??

The creepy crawly feelings under the skin, in bed at night I have had for several years ....I have always freq. wormed myself ..(for round worm, and thread worm...for that is what it felt like..) ..but now the sensations are hugely exaggerated...

my background is.......10 yrs undiagnosed /untreated Lyme...almost dead by diagnosis..then 4ys Abx...including 4mnths of IV ceftriaxone...all helped enormously...although several of the J-H when starting a new Abx were potentilly life threatening...!!But defintely now the best ever

posted 29 June 2005 13:37            

quote:

---

Originally posted by chriscross:

I only started Salt / Vit C 7 weeks ago...great improvement in energy/ stamina....so....much better

---

Yes, this is happening for me also - in between herxes. The herxes however, sometimes knock me down on my a$$, but then I just lower the dose a little and feel immediately better.

quote:

---

But not well at the moment....7 weeks since started the NaCl....(systemic muscle, joint, connective tissue pain now) after making BIG improvements... and last night was kept awake for several hours with pain/creeply crawly thing happening, 'skin itchies', feeling like things moving under the skin, mainly in ano-genital area but back/ thighs, abdomen, but also little sharp stabbing, sometimes more jabbing pain with a wider focus, and pin prick like pains ..that last several seconds or longer. One in particular was inside a nostril a week ago..very sharp needle type pain... felt like something 'outing' ...!!!! Guess mucosa is more sensitive to minute trauma...more nerve endings.......?? A wee wee worm??? Who knows ..has anyone had similar experiences???

---

Yes, absolutely. I get these feelings of itchy skin, and sometimes a crawling sensation. Occasionally it feels like a very small needle jab...

quote:

---

Is this the usual description that people starting Salt / Vit c report??

---

Yup. This is usual. Normal to a T.

quote:

---

my background is.......10 yrs undiagnosed /untreated Lyme...almost dead by diagnosis..then 4ys Abx...including 4mnths of IV ceftriaxone...all helped enormously...although several of the J-H when starting a new Abx were potentilly life threatening...!!But defintely now the best ever

Cheers

---

My bkgrnd is 17 years undiagnosed - and this is a recent diagnosis. Have never taken abx for it (since didn't know what it was) - but my plan is to try abx if the salt/c fails.

But so far the s/c is working. I feel better in between herxes - although some of the herxes have been difficult to get through - I have so far gotten through them. If it ever gets "too bad" just back down on the dose for a day or two...

Keep us posted - although this is new (and very controversial, sadly, just like everything in Lyme I guess), it seems to be performing as advertised so far.

KLP

posted 29 June 2005 21:53               

Come on people, when are you gonna realise you are being fooled?

posted 01 July 2005 06:36               

after three pretty nasty days of systemic muscle/joint connective tissue pain and the creepy crawlies , needle pricks and migrating "itchies", now much better and the intense cutaneous skin "happenings" manily subsided...is this a normal occurrance on the salt?Vit C protocol..that the intense cuataeous skin 'business' only happens when you are 'unwell'...or do the skin issues happen at any point in time ..even when yu are feeling good?

I really appreciated your last feedback....

I am an open minded sceptic.. I am bringing home a microscope to see....let you know !!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by KeyLymePie:

My bkgrnd is 17 years undiagnosed - and this is a recent diagnosis. Have never taken abx for it (since didn't know what it was) - but my plan is to try abx if the salt/c fails.

But so far the s/c is working. I feel better in between herxes - although some of the herxes have been difficult to get through - I have so far gotten through them. If it ever gets "too bad" just back down on the dose for a day or two...

Keep us posted - although this is new (and very controversial, sadly, just like everything in Lyme I guess), it seems to be performing as advertised so far.

KLP

---

posted 03 July 2005 21:04               

" If salt dehydrates the bacteria via osmosis to kill them, doesn't it dehydrate our body cells? Then drinking lots of water to replenish our body cells would also replenish the bacteria’s water?"

As I understand it, the resistant bugs are L-forms - they have shed their cell wall and have a very vulnerable membrane. This makes them invisible to our immune system but extremly vulnerable to osmotic gradients.

Our cells are very stable in hyperosmotic environments - to a degree. Water should be drunken only, when the thirst comes. Being thirsty means however, that we are already in the hyperosmolar state. So when we drink, it is too late for the critters already. But it is true: do not push the drinking! Wait for the thirst naturally! (per Dr. K., WA)

"What is the purpose of the vitamin C with the salt?"

Vitamin C creates a hyperosmolar state also. Both have a synergistic effect, but different chemistry.

Is it the difference between a microbial cell and a mammalian cell? The mammalian cell protects itself – the microbe doesn’t?

They are both extremely similar. However, microbes have to modify their cell wall to evade the immune system (see above). Lida Mattman is the world expert on the L-forms (cell wall deficient bugs).

Take care.

posted 03 July 2005 22:20               

" If salt dehydrates the bacteria via osmosis to kill them, doesn't it also dehydrate our body cells? Then drinking lots of water to replenish our body cells would also replenish the bacteria’s water?"

As I understand it, the resistant bugs are L-forms - they have shed their cell wall and have a very vulnerable membrane. This makes them invisible to our immune system but extremly vulnerable to osmotic gradients. Our cells are very stable in hyperosmotic environments - to a degree.

Water should be drunken only, when the thirst comes. Being thirsty means however, that we are already in the hyperosmolar state. So when we drink, it is too late for the critters already. But it is true: do not push the drinking! Wait for the thirst naturally! (per Dr.K, WA)

" What is the purpose of the vitamin C with the salt?"

Vitamin C creates a hyperosmolar state also. Both have a synergistic effect, but different chemistry.

"Is it the difference between a microbial cell and a mammalian cell? The mammalian cell protects itself – the microbe doesn’t?"

They are both extremely similar. However, microbes have to modify their cell wall to evade the immune system (see above). Lida Mattman is the world expert on the L-forms (cell wall deficient bugs).

Take care.

P.S. By the way, Salt & C alone with nothing else ever to address or correct or add, I do not believe is a cure for Lyme on its own. Neither does my doctor. Look at "Lyme Disease: A look beyond Antibiotics" at www.neuraltherapy.com/articles. It's just a nasty disease, but Salt & C does a great deal toward the goal.

posted 04 July 2005 02:46               

Most tick bites do get red because the tick puts saliva into your skin, and the saliva causes irritation and reddening. This does not mean you have Lyme disease.

Several factors influence risk. First, it helps to know the tick infection rate in your area. You might call the public health dept or the agricultural station. If the infection rate is low, your chance of acquiring infection is low.

Promptly removing biting ticks is key to preventing transmission of disease agents. In one study, experimentally infected Ixodes pacificus nymphs do not EFFICIENTLY [emphasis added] transmit Bb to mice until ticks have been attached for 3-4 days, HOWEVER 11% of mice became infected after only 2 days of tick attachment (<=48hrs.)(1)

Matuschka and Spielman reported that about 5% of infected I dammini (i.e. scapularis) nymphs transmit Bb in the first day (24hr), about 50% after 2 days. (2) J. Piesman et al. reported that Ixodes ticks transmitted Lyme disease to 1 of 14 rodents exposed for 24 hours, 5 of 14 rodents exposed for 48 hours, and 13 of 14 rodents exposed for 72 or more hours. The authors concluded that prompt removal of ticks is important. (3) Patmas and Remora reported on a case of Lyme disease that was transmitted after only 6 hours of attachment by a deer tick. The authors concluded that, “The current recommendation against treatment of short-duration tick bites may need reconsideration.” (4)

Proper removal is also important. If you squeezed, burned, mutilated, or did anything besides just pulling the tick straight out with fine-pointed tweezers or special tick removing tool, the risk is higher.

Whether or not to use prophylactic treatment is a decision you should make with your doctor, considering the risk of infection vs. the risk of treatment (treating has very low risk of side effects). You can check www.ilads.org, Burrascano guidelines for recommendations on prophylactic treatment.

1 Peavey CR, Lane RS. Transmission of Borrelia burgdorferi by Ixodes pacificus nymphs and reservoir competence of deer mice (Peromyscus maniculatus) infected by tick-bite. J Parisitol 1995;81:175-178
2 Matuschka FR, Spielman A. Risk if infection from and treatment of tick bites. Lancet 1993;342;8870:529-30
3 Piesman, J, et al. Duration of Tick Attachment and Borrelia Burgdorferi Transmission. J Clin Microbiol. 1987 Mar;25(3):557-8.
4 Patmas, MA, Remora, C. Disseminated Lyme Disease After Short-Duration Tick Bite. JSTD 1994; 1:77-78

posted 04 July 2005 10:28            

Of the solutions studied, potassium permanganate and Labarraque's solution destroyed the red and white corpuscles to such an extent that it was impossible to recognize anything in the preparations.

A similar effect was noted with Formalin.
Other solutions were less destructive. These included hydrogen peroxide, phenolic acid, Gram's solution, and cyanide of mercury. Sodium chloride was somewhat better.

Tests showed that, as antiseptics, these solutions were inadequate. The problem was to kill the microbes without killing the blood cells.

Since table salt (sodium chloride) showed up best in all these tests, various solutions of this type were tested but did not compare with the effectiveness of magnesium chloride.

Delbet says, "A solution of magnesium chloride at 12.1 parts per 1,000 gave extraordinary results.
It increased the proportion of phagocytosis [killing microbes] by 75 per cent as compared with the solution of sodium chloride at 8 parts per 1,000 which itself gave 63 per cent more than the Locke-Ringer's solution.

The increase is based on the number of polynucleates [white cells] as well as the phagocytic [germ-destroying] power of each of them.

"These experiments prove that a solution of desiccated chloride of magnesium at 12.1 parts per 1,000 has a special effect on the white corpuscles, which is not the case with either physiological serum [a solution of chloride of sodium at seven parts per 1,000] or seawater, or the solution of Locke-Ringer which was considered best for maintaining the activity of cells.

posted 04 July 2005 12:58               

quote:

---

Originally posted by lou:
Think Martijn has it nailed. The lymephotos site is a hoax. Those photos resemble nothing seen in textbooks or any other source that depicts those organisms. Look at the babesia "colony" with a pincer! These in no way look like babesia. Check for yourself. Google babesia photographs. Or look at malaria photos. Babesia and malaria look a lot alike.

---

posted 04 July 2005 13:36               

I am sorry if this is rude, Pmerve, but this

comment had to make me laugh, and I mean

laugh. I live in a state, where there is NO

LYME!!! HOwever, my Daughter,

granddaughter, life long friend and her

granddaughter all have diagnosed Lyme. I

suspect that I know several other people

that also have it here that are in the

process of getting tested. It scares the

hell out of me that if I know this many

people who have it here, how many people

REALLY have undiagnosed Lyme and don't have a clue why they are always sick and never

get better with all the meds their ducks give them. YOu can NOT go by the reported

cases in the area that you were bit, since in states where there is no Lyme we have to

go out of state to get treatment, therefore it NEVER gets reported. LLMD's do not

report cases to the CDC and our local health dept. that are from other states as far as I know.

posted 04 July 2005 15:12            

pmerv was actually talking about the tick infection rate, not the human rate of infection as demonstrated by reported cases. This is very different. The local health dept may not know the tick infection rate, though. I called them to see what they knew about babesia. Never heard of it, said it wasn't reportable. This is in a lyme endemic state.

Later I read something that came out of the state dept. of health. Said babesia rare in the state. Well, if no one has heard of it, and it is not reportable, then what is rare is recognizing it! Think our state and federal health agencies way behind on all tickborne diseases.

posted 04 July 2005 16:32               

The theory is that Lyme is not just a bacterial disease, but a l s o an infestation of microfilarial w o r m s . Bacteria, worms, internal mites and the possibility of other creatures. My doctor has long, long ago treated patients based on that theory. All chronically ill go through that program in varied forms.

Ticks can transfer many types of pathogens into the body of their host. It is also possible that the tick could pick up a new pathogen and pass it on to their next host, explaining why Lyme patients have different types of organisms within their bodies.

More from the Lymephoto site: "Shortly after starting the treatment, we were shocked by the presence of the worms. Microfilarial worms live symbiotically with bacteria. They p r o t e c t the b a c t e r i a from being e x t e r m i n a t e d by the a n t i b i o t i c s.
Our theory is that the microfilarial worm, though possibly a nematode, is a parasitic nematomorph which we name Paragordius Lyme Incorporehumani, ..........."

Sorry to emphatically disagree again with the nay-sayers: The Brit who came up with this protocol found (in the skin rashes and other body " material") countless until then nameless microparasites - mutated forms of Taenia, Filaria and other worms. In my doctor's practice: have found worms coming out of skin that changed into flying insects two days later, that besides tapeworms, ascaris, etc. etc. and many unidentifiables.

My doctor came to the very same conclusion. This is one of the reasons he starts "deworming" clients in the e a r l y stage of Lyme treatment. The high salt concentration kills large parasites by osmotically induced dehydration (osmotic shock). High salt levels also increase the enzyme elastase which has a strong antimicrobial/anti-spirochete effect.

As is often the case when something goes against the "established" theories, the British parasitologist was "turned down" and could not publish his findings in a professional journal; so he turned to the internet to make the findings public.

None of that -- about salt --- is new - when the Chinese get sick, they drink warm water with salt in it! They have done so for centuries.

Take care.