posted 06 April 2005 11:00               

I grew up in Dutchess County in the fifties. Never saw a tick despite "exploring" the wooods & fields all around Poughkeepsie. Today that is a highly endemic area and ticks are plentiful.

Has global warming created a better environment for ticks? Has global warming killed off some unknown microscopic parasite that used to keep the tick pop. down? Is some bird now extinct that used to consume ticks? Is the increase in ticks really due to the increase in the deer population and/or to the increase in vegetation?

posted 06 April 2005 11:40               

Forest fragmentation is one of the reasons.

posted 06 April 2005 12:26            

Get out the turkey shooter and give em a blast!

posted 06 April 2005 12:32               

Borrelia has been around a long time, but what we have here is not simply an increase in the strain that existed before.

That's evident in the nature of the disease and response to treatment, among many other things.

I agree there is no use in invalid "conspiracy theories"..but in this case there is much information that seems illogical to ignore at this point if we are to gain acknowledgement, research, adequate care, discrediting dangerous information on care, ect.

Mo

posted 06 April 2005 12:50               

quote:

---

Originally posted by lou:
Right, treepatrol, so how about running off the endless plum island posts? Get them to head for support or off topic, or off the wall. Seems like we have several of those running at the same time.

Get out the turkey shooter and give em a blast!

Not mad at you, since you are right. Just aggravated at how many people seem to fall for this stuff.

---

Hey hey I did let them know Lou I am not the enforcer just putting in gentle reminders

posted 06 April 2005 12:51            

some are backed up with good logic and scientific data.

these things can provide a motive for the bizarre highly unethical scientific research which has been promulgated by steere and klempner to name a couple which in any other field would have endangered or destroyed their careers not to mention the reasoning behind government approval of grants which has defied logic in some cases.

quote:

---

Originally posted by lou:
Right, treepatrol, so how about running off the endless plum island posts? Get them to head for support or off topic, or off the wall. Seems like we have several of those running at the same time.

Get out the turkey shooter and give em a blast!

Not mad at you, since you are right. Just aggravated at how many people seem to fall for this stuff.

---

posted 06 April 2005 13:06            

Corrupt and incompetent people are the cause of many problems. Don't need conspiracies to explain these things.

posted 06 April 2005 13:31            

And actually, inquiring as to why we're denied treatment (be it conspiracy/unethics are what have you) is a most pertinent medical question for this forum.

posted 06 April 2005 15:34               

The "establishment", for lack of a better word, has made the word conspiracy look foolish...like a conspiracy is science fiction. Of course you will think this is another conspiracy theory..but it's not a theory , it's a fact. Making people look foolish or accusing them of being a traitor for questioning the things going on around them, is a well known tactic used by governments or others who are in control and want to stay in control.

Dictionary definition of conspiracy....."An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful or subversive act. An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action. "

posted 06 April 2005 18:49               

Lyme patients, are often singled out for this treatment, might be expected to know better.

This would, however, be naive. In real life, nothing is more common than for the victims of evil acts to deny that anyone means them harm.

In the early days of the Nazis, there were plenty of Jews in Germany saying 'things are bad enough, without us raising these hysterical specters.'

What is far fetched is imagining that research with zoonotic pathogens, like that carried out at the Plum Island facility, is likely to be 'safe' and 'well-contained'. Unlike warheads, ticks and other vectors actively resist efforts at containment.

If someone says 'I know for a fact that the Lyme epidemic is a product of bioweapons research,' I would question that. I haven't seen anything that constitutes proof.

But for heaven's sake, almost nothing related to this disease is settled by the facts (which are few in number and are themselves often subject to dispute, in a way that facts about syphilis, for example, are not).

Is it a 'fact' that most people who pursue high-dose, ILADs-style antibiotic treatment will get well? No. Are we all wildly irrational, because we insist on our right to that treatment, in the absence of compelling proof of its efficacy? Again, no. It is at least possible, consistent with accepted facts, that this strategy will work.

The evidence for a link between bioweapons research and Lyme may be only suggestive, not conclusive. One could compare it to a criminal charge based on circumstantial evidence. Only in this case, the state, not some private party, stands accused. States do not voluntarily produce documentation of their crimes, nor do they turn their police powers against themselves.

The LOGIC of the situation dictates that only citizens can investigate such a crime and seek remedy if they feel the charge is just.

posted 06 April 2005 23:38               

They would warn settlers of a 'curse' in the hills, to not go up there, since so many of their own suffered as a result.

They were talking about Babs.

But I am sure the Native Americans were healthier to fight the diseases as a result of diet and exercise.

I think it's reported more now due to better testing and awareness, and due to the suburbs expanding into wooded areas. All of the wildlife gets compressed into smaller and smaller squared miles.

posted 07 April 2005 09:48            

quote:

---

Originally posted by CA quest:
Even though conspiracies are more fun, let us use logic. Quest

---

With respect, is it logical that people should be refused appropriate diagnosis and treatment for decades, despite overwhelming evidence that Lyme is not "hard to catch, easy to cure", nor restricted to an arthritis, nor always characterised by a bullseye rash etc?

Is it logical that such a disproportionate numnber of key doctors , scientists and government officials responsible for that refusal should turn out to be from the field of biowarfare? Plus the inevitable insurance, vaccine and biotech company whores etc.

An increase in ticks will obviously cause an increase in tick-borne disease. But that does not detract from the other issues mentioned above, nor does it explain the cruelty and stubborn refusal of the Steere camp to help Lyme patients.

Lisa

posted 07 April 2005 10:00            

But that in itself provides a rationale and a logic why the Steere camp fraud is DELIBERATE, and that in itself needs exposing.

I don't believe it's simply a matter of "incompetence" - many of the worst Steere camp swine are among the top in their field scientifically.

However, having their snouts in the trough of insurance money (as some of them proudly admit to), or of Glaxo SmithKline etc, would not explain the extremely disproportionate number of biowarfaremen and elite military ID personnel involved.

I agree with you that the recent influx of money into biowarfare research would obviously attract anyone who's skilled in the art of milking the taxpayer. But that money only started flowing relatively recently (as far as what we have been told anyway), and only really big-time after 9-11.

If you examine the background of most of these bastards, they were in that field long long before then.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by lou:
I am even boring myself, repeating this so often:

Corrupt and incompetent people are the cause of many problems. Don't need conspiracies to explain these things.

Yes, some of the same people are involved in Lyme research fraud and biowarfare. That just means they know how to milk the system of whatever money is flowing from the gov't. And they haven't a clue when it comes to morals and ethics. See, they fail on both counts: their scientific research and their ethics.

---

posted 07 April 2005 10:18            

I have no problem with the suggestion to take the biowar discussion of "Medical" (it's already in existence on "General support".)

But I can imagine many medical questions where it may pop up again.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by paulscha:
Characterizing other human beings as irrational because you don't like what they're saying is a bad habit.

Lyme patients, are often singled out for this treatment, might be expected to know better.

This would, however, be naive. In real life, nothing is more common than for the victims of evil acts to deny that anyone means them harm.

In the early days of the Nazis, there were plenty of Jews in Germany saying 'things are bad enough, without us raising these hysterical specters.'

What is far fetched is imagining that research with zoonotic pathogens, like that carried out at the Plum Island facility, is likely to be 'safe' and 'well-contained'. Unlike warheads, ticks and other vectors actively resist efforts at containment.

If someone says 'I know for a fact that the Lyme epidemic is a product of bioweapons research,' I would question that. I haven't seen anything that constitutes proof.

But for heaven's sake, almost nothing related to this disease is settled by the facts (which are few in number and are themselves often subject to dispute, in a way that facts about syphilis, for example, are not).

Is it a 'fact' that most people who pursue high-dose, ILADs-style antibiotic treatment will get well? No. Are we all wildly irrational, because we insist on our right to that treatment, in the absence of compelling proof of its efficacy? Again, no. It is at least possible, consistent with accepted facts, that this strategy will work.

The evidence for a link between bioweapons research and Lyme may be only suggestive, not conclusive. One could compare it to a criminal charge based on circumstantial evidence. Only in this case, the state, not some private party, stands accused. States do not voluntarily produce documentation of their crimes, nor do they turn their police powers against themselves.

The LOGIC of the situation dictates that only citizens can investigate such a crime and seek remedy if they feel the charge is just.

People who seek to exercise there civic responsibility can make mistakes. Not every charge made against the state by its citizens is accurate. But to mock people for making the effort is really unconscionable.

---

posted 07 April 2005 15:38            

You would like to focus on logic.

Using this kind of reasoning, where do you think the lyme numbers are going to be 5 years from now, 10 years from now.

Logic would tell us that the numbers are going to be staggering!

Using logic again, do you think that if our medical system can not or will not handle the number of lyme patients we have now - do you think it will be able to handle it 5 or 10 years from now...

...especially when we consider that we don't have big research dollars (besides Fallon do we have any other research) passionately working on this NO. 1 emerging infectious disease in the country. Also, consider the lack of new antibiotics in our arsenal and the issue of antibiotic resistance.

Most of us are just getting by. We are the "lucky" ones. We have been diagnosed and some of us are being treated. However, many of us are incapacitated/disabled and not contributing to our nation's productivity.

What will happen to our society's productivity when even more people are disabled? Just look at the generation of children with this disease. These children will one day be our leaders. How will they lead if they are incapacitated? Without a medical miracle I don't think that my two children will be contributing to the productivity of our society. They won't be the leaders that I always dreamed they would be. They are both disabled and I can only hope that we will be able to find the right medications to have healthly and productive lives.

We all know that the numbers are rising. What happens when this explodes? Do you honestly believe we will be prepared for this epidemic?

One can say that it is rarely fatal now (which I question, because of its multi-organ system complexities. We really don't know how many illnesses like ADD, autism, MS, ALS or deaths from suicides, alzheimers, kidney or cardiovascular diseases are due to complications stemming from Lyme because it hasn't been considered and investigated in the last 20-30 years.

So if lyme is associated with any of the diseases mentioned above and we are not prepared when this disease hits us even harder...logically is our healthcare system going to be prepared to handle the onslaught?

If there are those that want to hammer out the conspiracy theory here, it should be welcomed. This forum is exactly the place this should be allowed to happen. We are here for answers.
I don't want to put my head in the sand. I want the truth. If we have to look under every rock, what is the harm?

I have been naive for 20 years. I believed that the best medical system in the world was going to take care of me. I have been slapped around pretty hard this past year, but at least I woke up. Even though I had been told by the CDC in '85 that I was cured, I used logic and deductive reasoning to figure out that I still had Lyme disease. It isn't an accident that 20+ drs. just this past year were not able to figure out why I am in a wheelchair. It was my better judgement and guidance that unlocked this mystery. I am going to use that same judgement and guidance to discover what is really going on. It is cathartic. It is not anger that propels me forward, although I have had this most natural response to the injustices we are living. It is my natural curiousity and interest in improving this disaster that propels me towards finding answers. We won't be able to make much headway unless we blow this wide open.

Other theories like global warming, deer populations should be welcomed as well because the bottome line is that we should investigate any and all leads that could lead us in the direction of finding out why we are ignored, ridiculed and denied proper medical care. Logic has the hair on the back of my neck standing up regarding this disease. Something is not right. Perhaps it is more apparent to those who have gone 10-20+ years without a diagnosis. Those of us who have endured this realize a general trend ...that all of the drs., the top specialists in the country were kindly showing us the way to the psych wards.

posted 07 April 2005 16:31            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paisley:
Even though I had been told by the CDC in '85 that I was cured, I used logic and deductive reasoning to figure out that I still had Lyme disease. It isn't an accident that 20+ drs. just this past year were not able to figure out why I am in a wheelchair. It was my better judgement and guidance that unlocked this mystery. I am going to use that same judgement and guidance to discover what is really going on. ........We need answers so that we can have strategies.

---

If we can only gather enough people with that kind of determination to get to the bottom of this fraud, the Steere camp would soon be sunk.

Lisa

posted 07 April 2005 16:53            

Think I have heard too much of this kind of thing over the years to be convinced that it will lead to any action. Just look at the more modest goals and see that those don't even have adequate support.

posted 07 April 2005 17:13               

To me, these threads seem to be giving everyone a chance to share thoughts on this..
thread topics on are open so they may be discussed..right?

I mean, otherwise it shouldn't be on a Lyme/medical board in which members of the group have their own thoughts and opinions/info on the issue..

In that case..one should just print a closed statement in some other sort of venue.

Mo

posted 08 April 2005 07:57               

And Lou....it's not just Plum Island we are concerned about. That is just the tip of the iceberg. Our modest goals don't have enough support because they are being blocked by financial and ideological concerns of those who seem to have the power. We need to ask more questions and not be so trusting of the government in order to get the Truth out and UNBLOCK the underlying reasons why we cannot get treated. If we do not uncover their efforts.... which are under the protection of secrecy... they will continue to block any positive efforts we put forth.I kept bringing this fact up at our CT Hearing planning committee. Most people said to me...oh yes...we know this is going on but we must be credible. This uncovering business can always wait till later when we have our foot in the door. Well, needless to say nothing really productive came out of the Hearing. The Attorney General did come up with 1 good statement directed towards the CDC. He stongly suggested to them that they send out some sort of notice or warning to all Health Departments, doctors, labs, etc...NOT to use the CDC criteria when diagnosing Lyme. It's been a year since the Hearing and instead of fulfilling this request the CDC has diverted everyone's attention from the diagnostic criteria and is placing focus on labs and putting down their tests which are discovering the true proportions of the epidemic. They are also attacking all the websites which post information contrary to their information. In other words they are saying that only government info and studies are valid. I think we need to point this out.

I also feel that all this "uncovering" does not have to be done in a vengeful or hateful manner. If we want to get anywhere I think we have to be wise, firm and just but yet hold forgiveness and Love in our hearts.Otherwise our world will never change. We will just keep fighting back and forth...pulling and tugging at each other. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." They really don't know what they are doing in the long range spiritual scheme of things.

The people who commit crimes against humanity are full of fear...fear of not having enough...fear of not being loved and accepted....etc. So we have to try not to feed into that fear which would only add more to the turmoil we are already facing.

posted 08 April 2005 07:58            

If you feel that the point of view of people who believe that there is a very significant military/biowarfare side of the Lyme tragedy is wrong/misleading etc, why not just avoid the thread?

After all, it was pretty clear both from this thread and the one started by Daniella about Lab 257, what the subject matter was.

I have never heard of anyone being censored, threatened or expelled from a Lyme group for not believing there is a significant biowar-related aspect of the Lyme issue.

On the contrary, I HAVE seen that type of thing happen to those who do believe it, talk about it, etc..

Many people including me have given our point of view backed up by evidence. That is not a "rant". If you want to persuade us that we're wrong, you have to provide good logical arguments to prove it, not just throw words like "rant" and "conspiracy theory" at us.

Or, if you feel the whole discussion is a waste of time, why not just ignore us, and leave those of us who do want to discuss it , to do so?

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by lou:
I guess we don't get to say what we think. Seemed like one measely thread was not too much to ask for those of us who don't buy the Plum Island scenarios. Do you all who do believe this think that great long rants on internet forums is going to change any of this?

Think I have heard too much of this kind of thing over the years to be convinced that it will lead to any action. Just look at the more modest goals and see that those don't even have adequate support.

And finally, Lisa, you have been thru a lot, but I find it wearing to have you keep sledgehammering. Sorry. I really am sympathetic and glad you have retained some spunk.

---

posted 08 April 2005 13:35            

But as to origins, the LAST thing we need as patient reps or advocates is to bring in conspiracy theories!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The best paper re Bb as far as infecting human population is, because it was long long ago- and ALSO because it was published in a field unconcerned with Lyme politics-
is- Bb from the skeletal remains of a prehistoric swampified childs body:

1: Am J Phys Anthropol. 1998 Jun;106(2):229-48. Related Articles, Links

Prehistoric juvenile rheumatoid arthritis in a precontact Louisiana native population reconsidered.

Lewis BA.

Department of Geography and Anthropology, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, USA. galewi@unixl.sncc.lsu.edu

Descriptions of skeletal pathological conditions evident in the prehistoric Tchefuncte adolescent 16ST1-14883b are clarified. The basis is reaffirmed for assigning to the described pathological conditions a diagnostic perspective of juvenile rheumatoid arthritis or juvenile Lyme disease--a disease that mimics juvenile rheumatoid arthritis in its arthritic presentation--rather than of assigning them as representative of juvenile onset ankylosing spondylitis or other juvenile spondyloarthropathies. A hypothesis (Lewis [1994] Am. J. Phys. Anthropol. 93:455-475) is restated that 1) the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi was the infectious agent responsible for prevalence of adult rheumatoid arthritis in prehistoric southeastern Native American populations, 2) that B. burgdorferi is a possible cause of the arthritis evident in individual 16ST1-14883b, and 3) that antibodies to B. burgdorferi provided partial immunity to the related spirochete Treponema pallidum for the 16ST1 precontact Tchefuncte population from Louisiana, protecting them from severe treponemal response. Given the probable widespread existence of Ixodid tick vectors for B. burgdorferi in prehistoric North America, coupled with the existence of treponematosis, it follows that the transition of Native American hunting-gathering economies to more sedentary economies would predictably be linked to an increased incidence of treponematosis due to the loss of benefits of the above-stated partial immunity. In other words, as prehistoric Native American exposure to tick vectors for B. burgdorferi decreased, susceptibility to treponematosis increased. Inferences regarding biological controls interacting with and influencing prehistoric Native American migration patterns are suggested from the link of B. burgdorferi to an Ixodid tick common to northeast Asia.

Publication Types:
Historical Article

PMID: 9637186 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------