tricia386
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posted
I think I herxed from am epsom salt bath. I felt fine and when i got out wooo. I think I spent to much time in it though I was reading a magazine and lost track of time
-------------------- Lyme activated in April 2010 by gardasil vaccine. DX: Lyme,Babs,Myco,Bart 11/10 Treatment Started: 3/28/11 Posts: 1752 | From Albany, NY | Registered: Dec 2010
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lymeinhell
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Did you bathe in warm water? Did you spend more than 20 minutes in the tub? Drink a glass of water before you got in and after you got out? And did you put baking soda in the water also so you didn't get dehydrated?
With lyme, you really need to take all of the above precautions.
Any no's to the above would indicate you likely had a typical lyme reaction to a hot bath.
-------------------- Julie _ _ ___ _ _ lymeinhell
Blessed are those who expect nothing, for they shall not be disappointed. Posts: 2258 | From a better place than I was 11 yrs ago | Registered: Sep 2003
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tricia386
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Nope I didnt do any of those. And I was in long last night.
By the way i live in upstate new york we are getting so much snow its ridiculous!
-------------------- Lyme activated in April 2010 by gardasil vaccine. DX: Lyme,Babs,Myco,Bart 11/10 Treatment Started: 3/28/11 Posts: 1752 | From Albany, NY | Registered: Dec 2010
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Keebler
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- lymeinhell hit the most important points: do not get too hot (cozy warm is good - hot is not); 20 minutes is the max time for now; stay hydrated.
I'll add: expect to rest afterward and maybe even the next day. Adrenal support and liver support is helpful. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- As for the weather there and chance of outages, put on a HAT and warm clothes now. In case the power goes out, you will already have a good core temp.
Getting too cold can also be hard for many with lyme. Hope it all goes well and you can enjoy the beauty of it. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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tricia386
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Why if it is to hot is it bad Keebler?
-------------------- Lyme activated in April 2010 by gardasil vaccine. DX: Lyme,Babs,Myco,Bart 11/10 Treatment Started: 3/28/11 Posts: 1752 | From Albany, NY | Registered: Dec 2010
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canefan17
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You can NOT herx from an epsom salt bath.
A HERX is the die-off reaction that occurs when a pathogen is devitalised or killed.
You may have had detox reactions/healing crisis. But not herx.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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tricia386
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I see...its all so confusing
-------------------- Lyme activated in April 2010 by gardasil vaccine. DX: Lyme,Babs,Myco,Bart 11/10 Treatment Started: 3/28/11 Posts: 1752 | From Albany, NY | Registered: Dec 2010
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Keebler
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- tricia,
normally, I will offer explanations and excerpts from experts to back up what I say. But, I'm just too tired. Can you just take my word for it for now, maybe, that extremes in heat can cause terrible problems for many lyme patients.
A few do fine, even great in high heat. And that's great.
But - for most, too high of heat &/or for too long - can cause severe neurological setbacks of a few hours to days or longer
(remember that lyme is a demyelinating disease and, without that protective layer around the nerves, the stress that heat puts on the nerves can sort of "zap" the nerves, so to speak. You've heard of "frayed" nerves, I'm sure. It's figure of speak but it sure is illustrative for what stress on irritated nerves can do).
Often, the brain is swollen with lyme. Getting too hot helps in some ways, for the body to sweat out excess water weight that can cause inflammation, but heat is not the best for a swollen brain. With heat, things expand.
The demands on the liver and kidneys during heat are increased drastically and that can cause serious problems for those who already have liver/kidney stress and a lot of toxins.
Our liver and our kidneys can only filter through so much at once.
Antibiotics cause a die-off and you have a higher level of circulating toxins. Heat also stimulates the lymph tissue and muscles to just move out all the other ordinary metabolic waste that we have -- and all that has to be filtered by the liver, kidneys and other organs of detoxification.
And the adrenal system is really stressed by heat. Heat can knock that out for a day - or a week. I've had a month relapse more than once from a hot tub. Before I connected the dots.
Lyme also attacks the mitochondria, the tiny energy "batteries" inside each cell. Too high of a heat can cause mitochondria to go haywire, so to speak (for lack of a precise way to explain that). And that is also part of the exhaustion factor following too high heat for those affected by it.
Some lyme patients also have stress on their heart. Warmth is safer than high heat.
Etc. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
I didnt knwo about the too hot bath either. I have always taken red hot baths since NY is always freezing to me. I love how warm I am when I get out and run to a freezing bed after. I use espon salts and peroxide? was I suppose to use baking soda too?
Uh oh I hope i was not doing it wrong. I love my baths. Only once did I feel faint when getting out. I noticed if I close the curtain in the tub it makes me feels dizzy and fainty. Now I leave it open for some air and I am fine.
Someone let me know if I am doing them correctly? thanx....NY is an ice haven right now. Freezing cold and the lights are expected to go out due to the ice storm headed our way. I will lose it from the cold if we lose our heat. Why didnt I buy a house with a fireplace?
-------------------- Diagnosed with chronic neuro lyme 12/10 after 30 years of vertigo.2 tick bites in 3 yrs from upstate NY. Was on omincef for nine mths..zith and rifampin stopped.Remission~ All the pain and symptoms are back and I am not treating now with biaxin. Posts: 788 | From New york..queens | Registered: Nov 2010
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Keebler
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- Annier,
First, others may suggest peroxide and have their reasons. I am not a fan of that but simply don't have the energy to go back through my notes to find just where I formed that opinion. Just read from many different sources about that.
As for adding baking soda, yes, it can really help but if you do okay without it, it's not necessarily that you are doing it wrong.
It's how you FEEL. Personally, I think extremes are never good because of the shock to the adrenal system and added stress on all body systems.
However, if your bath is VERY toasty warm vs. just a nice cozy warm and you feel okay the rest of that day AND the day afterward, then it's probably fine for YOU. Also be mindful to raise the heat slowly and then cool down slowly.
Some like to do an ice cold shower after a hot one to stimulate some of the body's systems but - for lyme patients - I think that shock can be very dangerous to the heart and to the endocrine system that can take a long time to recover even from that.
As for freezing in your home, wearing a hat and scarf all the time, especially to sleep, really helps. An eye mask for sleep will also help keep sinuses warm. Very helpful.
Drink hot water, hot tea, ALL the time. Eat lots of hot soups, etc. Make sure all your food is good and warm so you are warming from the inside out.
Get in the habit of doing a little dance often. Any movement is good.
Warming herbs to use in cooking: garlic; ginger; onions; peppers (if you can "do" nightshades and handle the hot spice).
Be aware, though, that these "hot" and "warming" herbs are stimulating and may be too exciting for your body much past dinner time if you are to sleep well. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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gwb
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Just got out of my detox bath and saw this thread. You've been given some good advice. Gotta be hydrated before and after the bath, the water can be comfortably hot but not too hot. Staying in the tub for 20 to 30 minutes at the max, with 20 minutes being ideal. By the way, I use hydrogen peroxide and epsom salt. I think the hydrogen peroxide makes a big difference.
Detox baths have been a life saver for me. I feel so relaxed and my body truly feels like it's got rid of a ton of garbage. I feel like new life has been breathed into me each time I take a detox bath. Sometimes the baths energize me, other times they relax me. Tonight it relaxed me and it felt soooooo good. If you do it right you'll get some great benefits from it. I do it three times a week. If you do it right, and do it often, you'll feel great!
tricia386
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posted
just got out of mine. I followed instructions from above and feel much better!
-------------------- Lyme activated in April 2010 by gardasil vaccine. DX: Lyme,Babs,Myco,Bart 11/10 Treatment Started: 3/28/11 Posts: 1752 | From Albany, NY | Registered: Dec 2010
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chiquita incognita
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Hello friend It is possible that you had a detox reaction. Or, it is also possible that the water you are bathing in has a long list of chemicals (which are absorbed through the skin and enter the bloodstream, according to Dr Joseph Mercola) that caused your symptoms. That you mention symptoms intensifying with the closed doors/curtains makes me wonder that all the more. Because it could be that chemicals are being inhaled, especially in the enclosed environment.
This is not a diagnosis and I am not a doctor. HOwever, if my question proves to be correct, then there may be several solutions.
I really like the Multi-Pure water filter (I am not selling it nor affiliated in any way) www.multipure.com or is it .org?
They have a filter which attaches to your shower head. Don't know if they have one for tubs/baths but you could find out. Their products remove a very long list of chemicals and heavy metals, at rates like 99.8% and the lowest figure being 95%. You can check the Stats sheet to see. Also, log on to your town's water district website to download disclosure forms about the contents of your city's water (which chemicals and contaminants may be found therein, fluoride is a neurotoxin FYI and has been linked to reduced IQ in children, alzheimer's in the elderly and bone fragility....so it could cause neurological reactions in some sensitive individuals. But so could a long list of other ingredients in the water).
Liver cleansing with herbs for this purpose could be important. I recommend the book by master herbal authority Christopher Hobbs, titled "Natural Therapy for your Liver".
Be sure to check with your doctor to minimize any drug/herb interactions. The most marvellous book to date for physicians (way too technical for the layperson) is "Nutrient, Drug and Herb Interactions" by Stargrove/McKee/Treasure (MD, ND and world-ranking herbal authority). This book is marvellously detailed by the most noble of medical standards, and all physicians should know about it. It was penned within the past five years or less.
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chiquita incognita
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PS Friend Here is one more possibility. Epsom salts are very alkaline. Therefore, if your body itself is highly alkaline, it is possible you had a reaction to the alkalinity of the salts.
You could purchase PH test strips from your local pharmacy to test for PH Balance in your body fluids (one can use test strips for saliva, urine or blood. Ask your pharmacist or doctor which are the most accurate).
If you turn out to be highly alkaline, you might ask your doctor what s/he thinks of the epsom salt baths, for you. Not everybody has the same chemistry, after all. It's a very individual thing, by definition.
Also, baking soda and peroxide would alkalize the body too.
Vinegar would be acidifying.
Note that even though citrus fruits are themselves acidic, once digested they have an alkalizing effect on the body. Avoid citrus if you turn out to be highly alkaline.
You can read about PH balance on Medline to read about symptoms et al. Some of these symptoms might possibly mimic a herx. Ask your doctor to diagnose whether this was herx or body chemistry involved. And be sure to show him/her the PH balance test strips too, after you have used them and tested yourself.
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canefan17
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^^^ Is it true that when you're detoxing you should be acidic and that it can be harmful to alkalize your body too much?
What's the mechanism behind it
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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This is an interesting thread, as I have frequently felt I have herxed from very hot baths or being in a 104 degree hot tub.
I am smarter now and just take warm baths and take it easy- those are OK for me.
Maybe what I was determining as a die off reaction was really just a stirring up of things.
I have a friend who swears he cured his lyme from multiple 104 degree hot tub plunges. Not the route I want to go, but I know there is some info out there about spirochetes hating the heat.
Posts: 233 | From Hudson Valley | Registered: Jun 2010
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chiquita incognita
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Canefan, to answer your question:
"^^^ Is it true that when you're detoxing you should be acidic and that it can be harmful to alkalize your body too much? What's the mechanism behind it \"
Let me answer as best I can. I know something about this, but am not a full-fledged expert either. That said, here is what I do know:
Many unfriendly bacteria (such as with candida albicans) require an alkaline environment for their survival. An acidic environment is inhospitable to them, even deadly. Conversely, many friendly probiotics such as acidophilus, bifidus, etc which colonize the digestive tract, require an acidic environment in order to flourish.
The friendly guys help us to combat unfriendly bugs by tipping the scales in the positive direction (if enough of the friendly guys exist). They also manufacture B vitamins important to nerve function (important for lyme patients, obviously), and play a role in immune defense. They are not the sole role players in immunity by any means, but they surely are part of the equation.
So to maintain a slightly acidic intestinal environment can be helpful to detoxifying. Because it supports friendly bacteria which help combat the bad guys. Keep in mind that the bad guys (especially Lyme and co-infections, as you know) secrete neurotoxins while the friendly guys secrete healthful byproducts. We need the good guys to help us to neutralize the poisons secreted by the bad bugs, to some extent. (Digestive enzymes can help neutralize bacterial toxins too, to some extent. The liver and kidneys play an especially important role here. I highly recommend world-renowned herbal authority Christopher Hobbs's book, Natural THerapy for your Liver, available from Amazon.com very inexpensively. As a trained herbalist, I will say that most of the herbs in that book will not interact with mainstream drugs, though milk thistle will increase the uptake of anticancer therapies such as radiation and chemotherapy. But be sure to ask your doctor about this anyway, because s/he needs to know what you are taking in order to diagnose you properly and because drug-herb interactions, though constantly studied, is also a growing science).
Please note that an overly acidic intestinal environment is far from desireable either. Obviously, acid eructations are at best uncomfortable and over the long term, over many years, may even cause stomach and esophageal cancer. Ulcers are surely not fun, etc. Consider too that 80% of immunity lies in gut lining integrity and the secretions of the gut lining. If gut lining integrity is compromised (with ulcers, or Leaky Gut Syndrome) then unwanted matter gets into the bloodstream,because capillaries feed into the gut. Ulcers could be conducive to this. So PH balance is important to a lot more than just digestion alone, it's key to immunity too. So I stress that it is a slightly acidic environment one wants, not an excessively acidic one.
Citrus fruits are themselves acidic but will convert the body to alkaline after assimilation. Vinegar is acidic and remains so in the body. Sauerkraut, kimchee, salad dressings, etc are the way to acidify your body in a healthful way. Be aware that sugar, meat and meat products, will acidify the system in a very unhealthy way. Not the gut, but the muscles, blood, etc and cause corrosive disease like arthritis et al. I am not vegetarian FYI and do believe we need some of the anmimal products, but moderation is the key.
I highly recommend New Chapter Organic's Probiotic All-Flora. When buying a probiotic product, make sure it is in capsules, because the friendly bacteria in the powder will be killed by the stomach acids. The capsules shield the critters from this fate, melt in the upper digestive tract, and that is where you want the good guys to colonize. Powders are a waste of your money, 90% of the good bacteria will die (said my Lyme doctor).
To detoxify, vegetables are a great help (Chinese food is great! Salads are best of all, but make them fun/tasty with good toppings so you will eat and even enjoy them) and so are whole grains, liver-supportive teas (google "Polari-Tea offered by Christopher Hobbs and Beth Baugh". I usually add milk thistle seed and nettle leaves for kidney and adrenal support. CAUTION: The marshmallow root in this tea may interfere with the uptake of some medications. Take this tea inbetween medicines, not together with them, ie allow a few hours after taking any medication prior to drinking this excellent and gently cleansing tea. It tastes pleasant, like a cross between mint and licorice).
Epsom salt baths can help to detoxify to a limited extent. It's also a very good source of magnesium (needed for nerve health, to prevent contracting and spasms) absorbed through the skin.
Dry-brushing the skin with a loofa sponge or body brush prior to bathing, is helpful too. This opens up the pores of the skin, which after dry-brushing will secrete unwanted toxins (the skin is the largest organ of elimination of the body. That's why people get eczema, etc a sign of excess pouring out through the skin). Warm water will open up the pores and aid elimination. HOwever, it also will aid the uptake of agricultural sprays, etc in the water and THESE IMPEDE IMMUNITY WHILE CONTRIBUTING TO NERVOUS SYSTEM DYSFUNCTION. To get well from Lyme or co-infections, to minimize chemical and heavy metal exposure is not the cure itself, but surely is also very important as adjunct. A really good water filter in your shower and drinking water are both very important. Dr Joseph Mercola stresses that we take in more toxins through our skin than when drinking water, and that those taken in through the skin enter directly into the bloodstream. Again to stress, these chemicals and heavy metals in our waters inhibit immunity and nerve functioning. They would only contribute to the lyme impact. Minimizing chemical exposure is key, all across the board.
Avoid deodorants with aluminum, use non-alum baking powder, green housecleaning products are actually extremely important (some chemical ones will contribute to asthma and cancer FYI), and any other way you can cut back on chemicals in your life is key to resting your liver and immune system. Then it can focus on the task of tackling the already overwhelming task at hand, of battling the lyme and its neurotoxic secretions.
Best wishes and good recovery to all! ps for those interested, you can read my article about Leaky Gut Syndrome here. I have not one dime to profit from this, I post this as a public service: www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/154338
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chiquita incognita
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PS for anybody else who is interested, and again I am not making one dime in profit from this, here is my article about Non-Toxic Housecleaning, Green Building Products and Reducing Chemical Exposure:
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