steve1906
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16206
posted
A Warning about Milk Thistle and Drug Interactions
The seeds of the milk thistle plant are commonly used to protect the liver from damage caused by hepatitis viruses as well as alcohol and other substances. Compounds found in milk thistle - sylibin, sylimarin - act as antioxidants and also stimulate the repair of the liver. But now it appears that these and possibly other compounds in milk thistle can have other effects.
Researchers at the University of Pittsburgh have suspected that milk thistle can slow down or reduce the activity of enzymes in the liver. What does this have to do with HIV? you might ask. Well, enzymes in the liver break down many of the substances that we eat and drink, including medications. If the activity of these enzymes are reduced, then drugs remain in the blood longer than they otherwise might. This could lead to having higher-than-expected levels of drugs in the body, causing side effects or intensifying already-existing side effects. Indeed, in recent experiments using milk thistle and human liver cells, the researchers found that relatively small concentrations of milk thistle did significantly slow down the activity of the liver enzyme CYP3A4 by 50% to 100%.
Many medications taken by people with HIV/AIDS (PHAs) - such as protease inhibitors and non-nukes - are processed by this liver enzyme. If milk thistle is taken by someone using protease inhibitors or non-nukes, it has the potential to raise levels of these drugs, causing unpleasant or even dangerous side effects. Below is a short list of some other medications that are processed through the CYP3A4 enzyme. Levels of these medications may increase if taken by people who are also using milk thistle. This list is not exhaustive:
The research by the scientists in Pittsburgh should emphasize to readers that simply because a product is "natural" it does not mean it is safe when taken with other substances. This research also shows the need to conduct further research on herb-drug interactions on liver cells as well as in people. Such studies may find combinations of herbs and drugs that can be safely used together.
The Pittsburgh researchers noted that "patients and health care professionals must be encouraged to discuss the use of herbs and be educated about the potential interactions between herbs and drugs." This cannot be stressed enough.
-------------------- Everything I say is just my opinion! Posts: 3529 | From Massachusetts Boston Area | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
penguingirl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 28688
posted
Thanks for the info!
-------------------- Posts: 1204 | From USA | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just when you think you are helping to detox your body you may be actually making yourself more toxic and increasing your abx side effects. Very interesting. Thanks for the info.
Posts: 239 | From NC | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not on abx, but I was still taking it (milk thistle) for all these years. I stopped it a month or so ago, wondering if it was making my acid reflux worse in some way.
The jury is still out on that one. I may just stay off of it.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged |
canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
I thought milk thistle helped regenerate liver enzymes?
How can that be a bad thing?
I think this article/research is hocus pocus
I do agree that it can counter Mepron or artemisinin (pro oxidant formulas)
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Strangely, when I was still ill, I have never taken Milk Thistle because it hardly ever tests energetically for me or my husband.
When testing positive for Unda 243 or Livit 2 from Ayush, I know liver wants support. That is what we use, but only when one or the other tests.
Take care.
P.S. Steve, would you kindly post the link to this research. Thank you.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
steve1906
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16206
-------------------- Everything I say is just my opinion! Posts: 3529 | From Massachusetts Boston Area | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
MariaA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9128
posted
Canefan, this is pretty standard info, they just didn't explain it very well. It's one of the few drug-herb interactions that many standard, non-alternative practitioners understand, and there's a lot of evidence about it. Basically, anything affected by the cytochrome p450 pathway in the liver is affected. The same is true for many of the liver support herbs. It doesn't mean you shouldn't take them- but should be aware that they affect levels of certain drugs (I think Mepron is one of the things that is more rapidly destroyed if you take milk thistle.) One of the theoretical ways around this problem is to not take the drugs and the herb at the same exact time but to, say, take it mid-day if you've taken your antibiotics in the morning. Not sure if anyone's really studied whether that makes much of a difference or not, but it's what some doctors recommend.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
It's sad that researchers have to waste time investigating how herbs and artificial medicines interact with one another.
Imagine where this country would be, from a health standpoint, if we spent the last 80 years studying the effects food and PLANTS have on the human body.
Dare I say light-years ahead of where we are today?
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
bcb1200
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25745
posted
What about ALA or NAC?
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3134 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
| IP: Logged |
steve1906
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16206
posted
There is one reason, and one reason only, I posted this link. I wanted to let people know, if you�re taking certain meds, you may not want to take milk thistle.
I never said I believed what they wrote, that�s up to each person to decide.
-------------------- Everything I say is just my opinion! Posts: 3529 | From Massachusetts Boston Area | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
chiquita incognita
Unregistered
posted
Hi Steve I think you are absolutely right. It is very important for people to understand that herbs, nutrients and drugs may interact. And this is an important service you are doing. Thank you for that.
A recently penned book in 2008, "Herb, Nutrient and Drug Interactions" by Treasure/Stargrove/McKee is written by an ND, MD and herbal authority. This book has impressed several physicians I have shown it to. It goes into detail about pharmacology, chemistry, clinical practice et al.
According to this source, to date there are very few interactions with milk thistle and most medications. BUt there may be a few, and it' s absolutely important for people to check with their doctor or pharmacist. The doctor has the final word, and health is everything.
This is not about standing up for herbs, it's emphatically all about standing up for health. That's what matters, first and foremost.
Thank you Steve and please know that I applaud your ethic.
IP: Logged |
steve1906
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16206
posted
Hi chiquita, Is this the site you may be referring to?
posted
I certainly don't want to take a cavalier approach to the research that Steve cited, nor do I think it appropriate to imply that it may have been funded by Big Pharma, with an ulterior motive, and be part of some 'Pharmaceutical Conspiracy". That would be careless on my part and feed into the perception that many Lyme patients are fringe characters with a conspiracy bent.
Anyone can try to seek out the truth about the research as it is cited below and at the end of the study to which Steve linked in a post on this thread.
REFERENCE
Venkataramanan R, Ramachandran V, Komoroski BJ, et al. Milk thistle, a herbal supplement, decreases the activity of CYP3A4 and uridine diphosphoglucuronosyl transferase in human hepatocyte cultures. Drug Metabolism and Disposition 2000;28(11):1270-1273.
-- -- --
This research was carried out on human liver cells and the results, to me, seem quite conclusive. Enough so that I will bear them in mind carefully.
To quote another post on this thread by MariaA: "It's one of the few drug-herb interactions that many standard, non-alternative practitioners understand, and there's a lot of evidence about it. Basically, anything affected by the cytochrome p450 pathway in the liver is affected. The same is true for many of the liver support herbs."
The fact that this interaction is well known by practioners and that the test results both in vitro and on human liver cells come to the same conclusion is evidence enough for me to proceed with caution in combining Milk Thistle with certain prescription drugs.
As always, buyer beware.
Posts: 81 | From Rhode Island | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
steve1906
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16206
posted
I think we ALL have to remind ourselves of the damagers of mixing (meds & and other meds/herbs, meds and other herbs).
A lot of us are on our own, trying different ways of getting ourselves healthier.
Don�t ever forget, the main reason we�re all here is to help each other. Don�t ever be afraid to post something (positive or negative) you find on the internet, your was told to you by your doctors.
If we choose, not to believe the data, that�s okay. I enjoy reading different peoples approaches of healing.
When you think of it, most of us have been sick for many, many years, what works for one doesn�t always work for the other.
If anyone had the cure for these diseases we have, including (LLMD�S), we wouldn�t be here talking to each other.
Keep researching, we�ll find the light at the end of the tunnel; together!
-------------------- Everything I say is just my opinion! Posts: 3529 | From Massachusetts Boston Area | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had not read about any interaction between ativan and milk thistle -- but then I never checked. Hubby has been on both of these for over 8 years. If it lowers the effectiveness of the ativan then I think the trade off is worth it as far as offering liver protection.
Also continued with the milk thistle even while on high dose rifampin for 6 months. Again -- I'll admit I did not check for interactions.
But I did decide to stop the milk thistle when I put hubby on malarone. He had had what we thought was a previous allergic reaction to mepron 7 years ago so this time I thought I would try to eliminate as many variables as possible. I did substitute the herb dan shen for the milk thistle.
Other than St John's Wort there are very few herbs that have many known drug interactions. This could be because that is something that is not researched that much or it could be because herbs often have safety features built in -- there is usually an ingredient in the whole herb that counteracts most side effects and the more toxic components.
Hubby worked with an herbalist for a couple of years until she moved out of the practice that his LLMD was in. I learned that there is very little danger in combining multiple herbs and to be effective doses often have to be quite high. This lady had trained with both Buhner and Zhang and had a nutrition degree as well. Was very helpful in healing hubby's G.I. from bartonella.
Everyone needs to do your own research as I don't think there is a simple right or wrong answer about whether certain drugs and herbs interact. Personally given a choice I would chose a herb or plant or nutritional supplement first and the drug 2nd but with tickborne diseases sometimes you have to use all available resources.
I think intuition or gut instinct is generally a more reliable indicator than a couple of ambiguous studies which could be interpreted in multiple ways. Just make a choice given whatever info is available and move on. Agonizing over every supplement or herb or med combo could keep you in limbo forever. I do check with the pharmacist whenever hubby adds a new med and I usually get a package insert for the med from the pharmacy. But herbs don't scare me half as much as some of the meds do.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Anyone reading this thread needs also to read the thread on which this very same topic is being discussed,Let's keep this discussion going. . . .
Much rhetoric has been employed to discredit the research Steve brought to our attention, yet no matter how often or how loud someone says something, that does not make it true.
Question? I don't trust my PC doctor and I don't trust my LLMD who are giving me contrary advice.
I read the study Steve brought to our attention and it concerns me as I am taking some of the medications warned about in relation to Milk Thistle.
Can anyone here give me reliable assurance that I can take Milk Thistle and not worry about the negative interactions reported in Steve's study?
I am taking some of those medications, do any of you suggest that I ignore the study and take Milk Thistle anyway?
Posts: 81 | From Rhode Island | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
A simple question directed to Steve and Chiquita Incognita and any interested parties:
I am taking prescription drugs that, according to the Study Steve cited, in this post "Milk Thistle Warning" interact badly with the herb Milk Thistle: would you or would you not advise me to take Milk Thistle despite the study Steve cited?
Yes or no?
Any answer saying that it is "up to me or my doctor" will be considered a non-answer and thus a resounding "No".
Yes or no?
Should I or should I not, in your opinion, take Milk Thistle?
Posts: 81 | From Rhode Island | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Rajon _ I would advise you not to take your drugs before i would advise you not to take milk thistle.
[ 03-11-2011, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: mattnapa ]
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
steve1906
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16206
posted
Rajon, I'll ans. your question regarding, *would I still take milk-thistle if taking prescription drugs*. If my liver test were all normal, I don�t think I would take milk thistle if the prescription drugs I was taking interacted with them.
If I did decide to take a liver support I would probably take a lower dose. I never had to make this decision myself so, this is just my opinion. I still think it�s a PCP or LLMD decision!
This site is - Drugs-Com - They both talk about how milk thistle - breaks down some medications.
-------------------- Everything I say is just my opinion! Posts: 3529 | From Massachusetts Boston Area | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
lax mom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 38743
posted
My liver enzymes were elevated and I was told to take Xymogen's Liver Protect which has Milk Thistle in it, Zhang's Hepa 2, NAC and Alamax.
Now, my liver enzymes have skyrocketed instead of decreased.
I was taken off my 1 antibiotic, Mino, Valtrex, Nystatin, Clonidine. Now they are still high to the point my LLMD sent me to the ER tonight. (useless visit BTW)
No one knows what's going on, but my theory is:
I'm on Klonopin, Effexor, and Lyrica...couldn't the Milk Thistle in Xymogen's Liver Protect be interacting with my meds, causing toxicity?
posted
Yikes! So sorry, Lax Mom! I know high liver enzymes can be absolutely horrible.
I think that is a possibility!
-------------------- You name it, I've got it. Full-time medical anomaly. Posts: 432 | From Southeast | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged |
beaches
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 38251
posted
Lax mom, so sorry you ended up in the ER!!
So many here recommend milk thistle and NAC for liver support.
Did my own research and found I shouldn't be taking either one of these supps.
I think we all need to do OUR OWN research and not assume that others here know our bodies better than we do.
We are all different. Hoping you're home by now!?!
Posts: 1885 | From here | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged |
Catgirl
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 31149
posted
Wow, so sorry to hear this Lax Mom. Anything is possible. This is an old thread, but good.
Have you checked out Drugs.com for side effects, cross reactions? It could be a cross reaction to something you're taking or were taking. The pharma companies don't always disclose stuff (it even says that on drugs.com).
Maria's post suggests taking the MT away from abx. Maybe you could try taking it away from everything.
Has doc done a full methyl panel on you? I haven't had it done (just mthfr), but have read here that it is the best way to find out what you're up against.
Hang in there Lax! :)
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
| IP: Logged |
lax mom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 38743
posted
I'm home. I got really itchy and my liver was tender so, with the high Liver enzymes, my LLMD was concerned about something serious.
The ER wouldn't even U/S my liver like my LLMD's PA wanted them to. So, they ran a CBC, Urinalysis and LFT and sent me home.
Life+Lyme: It's just weird that I tolerated a year of MASSIVE, multiple abx and a bazillion supps, and only now my liver decides to act up.
beaches: it's so easy to take what the Dr orders and not even second guess it. I definitely need to start double checking things.
Catgirl: I have only had the mthfr done, not the full methyl panel. Is that a seperate test that Dr can order? or is it the Yasko or 23andme test?
beaches
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 38251
posted
So glad you're back home. Yeah, I understand how easy it is to just take what is recommended and not second-guess. You'd think you wouldn't have to with such a great expense.
But I've found that you ALWAYS have to be your own advocate and research anything/everything ANY doctor prescribes.
Posts: 1885 | From here | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged |
Catgirl
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 31149
posted
I'm sorry, I don't know much about them, but I remember reading some of the stuff you've been through and it seems like you may have something genetic going on with how/what you respond to. It seems like the next step. Unfortunately, the test is not available in NY or MD. You can get a provider from another state to order it though. :)
I'm glad to hear you made it out of the ER. I hope you feel better soon. :)
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Milk thistle is a good detox supplment but not mixed with certain medications.
No more for me. LLMD said new data says not to take it with mepron or malarone as it decreases it's effectiveness.
We are just adding another detox supplement to our list to take.
-------------------- Faithful
Just sharing my experience, I am not a doctor. Posts: 2682 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged |
Catgirl
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 31149
posted
Wow, Faithful, thanks for posting that (I had no idea)! :)
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am taking Mepron. Is there something else I can take for the liver? Does anyone know if ala is ok?
Posts: 415 | From USA | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Timing is often the key. Best to keep all liver support hours away from when Rx is taken. Usually that works.
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic