Will this culture help for anything other then research?
In order to culture a spirokete, you have them in the blood/tissue sample (is this correct?).
I can see the new test as possibly being just a tab bit better then PCR, as it will also grow variations of Borrella, not just match up known DNA.
But if I am understanding it correctly its the old ping pong ball in a pool of water problem that PCR tests often miss.
The only difference is, if your lucky (or unlucky) to get a positive you end up with bugs in a dish when your done. Real honest to god proof of an active infection.
Am I missing something ?
I realize a lot of people rely of clinical diagnosis from LLMDs, but I am not one of them.
I also think the elisa and western blot antibody tests are worthless. They merely show exposure.
So is test available yet? Has anyone had it?
I have an LLMD, but haven't seen him in over a year. I would consider going back on ABX if I had definitive proof, that's why this test interests me.
My symptoms are mostly neuro, so I may just be nuts...
Posts: 5 | From NJ | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged |
lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
whenever any indivitual's species of spirochtes
are identified, the next step would be, IMHO,
determining species and then subsequently,
which antibiotic/spirochetalcide would be most
effacatious per individual. Rather than
the utilization of the "dart/dartboard" trial
and error methodology presently in use. This
would be the BIG PICTURE you are missing.
The reason for suggestions for withdrawal of
blood being in the afternoon may not be as impor-
tant than each individuals monthly record of the
exacerbation of each one's symptoms, denoting the
activity of each individual's patterns of dissem-
ination, re-generation of each individual. It is
generally an accepted theory that this period is
when spirochetes are suspected of utilization of
the bloodstream for dissemination. However, cell
by cell dissemination of a symbiotic pathogen
might indicate tissue samples might be a
preferred method or specimen for detection.
However, this method might also be difficult to
determine exact location, due to spirechetal load
and or symptom manifestation relating to what
tissue or tissues targeted for selection may be
determined by the lab personell or your llmd or
doctor/scientists.
Furthermore, to correct your perception of the
western blot blood test, if positive in the IgM
range of CDCP required positive bands would
denote an active or acute infection. Of course
any llmd worth their weight in experiences in
treating these diseases added to your care-
fully documented calendar associated manifesta-
tions or symptoms could readily determine active
or passive infectious status...even five bands in
the IgG accepted ranges plus your own personal
symptomology could also determine whether your
spirochetal infestations were acute(active). I
can well document an active(symptomological) or
dormant(asymptomatic) relationship with these
pathogens as I have experienced both in my over
57 year unwanted association with these vector
borne pathogens/co-infections.
As I have read and understand the press release
of the lab and the subsequent comment by Dr
Burrascano this test or group of tests are indeed
presently available. I have not as yet contacted
the lab myself however as to cost and or specimen
they may require of me. However, I will soon make
a call so as to determine if possible,
just what species or group of species etc., I
may have the individual displeasure to have per-
sonally been infected. Perhaps then my treating
llmd and I may be able to determine just which
anti-spirochetal would be most effacacious in the
(hopefully successful)resolution of my disease/s.
Hopefully eliminating at least the spirochetal
aspects of my infection/s. Any attempt to become
asymptomatic of spirochetal infections which may
or may not then pinpoint more drammatically
or more succinctly any other reasons for symptoms
that may or may not persist to determine any
other pathogens once spirochetes have been
eliminated. This then would be another way in
which the new testing methodology would be most
useful, even as I have been treating for the last
17 or so years since I was first tested and found
positive both IgG and IgM in 1997 and 1999
respectively.
If you have been asymptomatic for over a year
and only complain of neuro symptoms(which you
failed to include in your thread). Your infec-
tion/s may have been forced into dormancy or
chose to remain themselves in dormancy for any
environmentally favorable or unfavorable reasons
your pathogens have determined. I would caution
you however due only to the pathogens in question
because of my experiences. Mild neurological
symptoms(if you are not indeed "just nuts"), may
indeed be a warning to you and your llmd that
you are still, very much infected actively and
quite possibly the number or location of your
spirochetes and their involvement/symptomatic/
manifestations whether waxing or waneing is or
should be a clinical reference to your clinical
practitioner that ABX's are still needed for
resolution. Utilization by your llmd of the new
culture testing may indeed prevent further
load growth, symptomatically suttle as they may
be to you personally thus prophylactically deal-
ing with your apparent disregard for the serious-
ness of spirochetal infections.
Any llmd worth a darn would or should have warn-
ed you against treating your neuro symptoms so
lightly-or as you say you "may just be nuts"...
Even so, I am of the belief that most, if not
all, mental diseases have their causes in the
microbiological/chemical pollutant etc., rather
than behavioral sciences. Thus, any and most
not all,
behavioral,
psychologist/psychiatrists/sociologists etc.,
are deathly afraid my above mentioned rationale
will some day be "discovered", laying waste to
all the education and past practices they've
learned or experienced clinically when dealing
with the human mammal. Even previously thought
of or diagnosed hereditary traits may indeed be
proven to be just the passing on from person to
person in the familial matrix the communicable
pathogens from one member to another. My argument
is substantiated by the number of positive lyme
or TBD or spirochetal(what have you) infections
which are present in not just one member of any
given family but are usually found to include
all members.
The recent discovery of even autism as having
a spirochetal involvement could be the initial
key that unlocks the mysteries of pathogen
involvement/hereditarily in all cases of mental
disease. As opposed to behavioral or
experiential(innate vs natural) or "genetical"
sciences. After all, genetics is the passing
on of defective geneology is it not? Why then
is the passing on of pathogens not more fully
investigated as being the "innate" causes for
mental diseases and or physiological maladies?
In any event, I think you may be greatly
aided along with your llmd with the new tests.
However you decide, good luck.
zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
zman -- A very well thought out and thorough answer to the question.
Please post an update when you find out what the new test costs.
I have always wondered which species of borrelia hubby has, but for now that will have to remain a mystery as I am not willing to take hubby off of antibiotics to do a test that I feel is still very much experimental. This time I am going to wait and see what results others get from the test before even considering it.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
nenet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 13174
posted
I don't believe this is commercially available yet, but this new form of Lyme testing looks more promising to me than any culture, antibody, or even DNA test so far:
"In years to come, is this something that could be available in hospitals?
That's the hope we have. The first clinical trial is on the detection of Lyme disease. A fraction of patients get a skin rash but for those without the rash it is very difficult to diagnose. So with the particles we are able to capture the antigens that come from the spirochaete that is the causative agent of Lyme disease. If we see in the urine a piece of the bacteria of the spirochaete, we are sure that the patient has Lyme disease. We are gathering all the evidence and then we will need to go first for FDA approval before it is available in clinics.
How much earlier will you be able to detect Lyme disease?
Lyme disease has a window of two to three weeks before seroconversion [production of antibodies in the host blood, indicating infection]. With our tests, we're able to detect it before seroconversion, because we're not looking for the antibodies, we just look for the spirochaete. I would say here, yes, by weeks, and earlier diagnosis would be beneficial for the prognosis."
Years ago, IGeneX used to offer the LUAT, which was also a urine antigen test, but I'm not sure why it fell out of use/favor. I've been meaning to look into that further for years.
lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
From what I remember Bea, your husband as have
many have had a rough time of it with
our "friends" so with your plan of not doing
abxs for the required minimum of four weeks
is probably a good move. I mean, until the lab
can decidedly give a definitive species and or
preferred most effacacious
antibiotic/spirochetacide(if that's a word)
patients already receiving treatments probably
don't or would'nt gain anything with just finding
out whether one has or does not have lyme.
As far as the LUAT test goes I believe the IDSA
had their long arms of incredability nay-saying
involved with those tests-if my over 400 ppm can
be any indication of how the IDSA may have viewed
the urine tests...somewhat how they used to treat
the "Bowen Culture" tests from that now defunct
laboratory due to the number of positive results
Bowen lab would detect. However, most of the
lymies who went there were already positive for
spirochetes and the Bowen lab boasted of the
benefits of curlturing Babesia pathogens...
Heaven forbid anyone ever comming up positive
for these worldwide diseases or their co-infect-
ious pals.
I believe the old Bowen lab was bought out by a
Florida University and is newly named something I
used to remember as having some "Lake" something
or other in their name. I never found out if that
lab was ever seriously or creditabley interested
in actually finding pathogens or if they were a
"Trollish", "Steere and Company(IDSA)" cohort in
the "crimes of lyme".
Thankfully-we hope-this Pittsburg or Sharonton
lab is legit according to the ILADS(burrascano)
"REAL" scientist/llmd's comments I've received
over this internet. I will be positively ogasmic
if and more to the point WHEN this lab can
achieve the above mentioned methodology for
eviction/extermination of our symbiotic-alien
"life robbers".
It may take me awhile to get back here with the
information on cost due to my needs as opposed to
someone just looking for preliminary evidence
they might need to convince out of ordinary
states where llmd's are'nt afraid to practice the
"trade" they went to school for so long to
acquire their liscenses.
Perhaps also, the "powers that be" who go around
falsely accuseing doctors who help us can now
relax and even possibly in retrospect be counter-
sued for previously harrassing good physicians.
Go get em Dr Jones! Get your practice and money
back from those creeps.
Nuff Said zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
The new culture test IS available now. It will not type the spirochetes, as tony has suggested would be the first step in doing testing as to which antibiotic would work best.
But it would tell you for sure that you were infected. It has a 20% false negative record, so not perfect, but better than anything else so far. I hear the cost is around $500.
Apart from knowing for sure and basing your decision to treat, a positive result presumably could be used with an insurance company.
However, those weasels may still say "yes, you have a spirochete and 3 weeks of treatment will cure you." Thus setting the stage, maybe, for having to repeat the culture test. But this is speculation on my part.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have had this test done, my llmd was part of the clinical studies on it. It was fairly quick and they actually give you picture of the spiros on the culture medium .....
Posts: 871 | From orange county, ca. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
Could you let us know exactly how the test results were reported -- what was the wording used? Does it just say borrelia spirochetes detected by culture or something similar?
Thanks.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic