MichaelTampa
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 24868
posted
So this is my question of the day, going to the very-lyme-aware but not necessarily officially llmd-doc tomorrow.
This doc did procaine/ozone/plasma injection therapy into my shoulder to help it heal, monthly injections over a period of few months and it seemed all better. Here we are 2-3 months later and it hurts again, bad as it ever did.
The pain comes with various arm movements (worst when move hand behind back) and lifting objects, even a quart bottle of water (2 pounds). Something about it feels kind of structural, and I don't even know what I'm saying when I say that.
The pain is a soreness kind of thing. It started during a time when lots of heavy furniture was being moved and I did have a massage therapist step on my back/shoulder area and it did hurt there. So it could have been caused by trauma to the area, although there was never one clear moment where I felt like the damage occurred.
I want to compare this pain to a pain I had in the top of my foot that I know was lyme-related. It came and went away, gone for seconds or minutes or hours or even a day or two, it would always come back, often pulsing, often sharp or very sharp pain. It started after a physical/emotional trauma that caused PTSD and started lyme being out of control, although lyme diagnoses was still a year or so in the future from that moment.
Once I started lyme abx and using an oxygen machine 2 hours/day, one day it pulsed really hard pain in the same spot and was gone forever. I really believe the oxygen/abx combination ended up killing some stronghold of the infection there and have no other explanation for what happened.
So that type of pain was very different in nature to this shoulder pain.
But what is your joint pain like? Is it like my shoulder pain that would leave me to believe this could be lyme? I really have no explanation for how this pain came back, I have not been working/stressing my shoulder at all.
Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Many of the characterics of "lyme pain" are discussed here: -----------
It is a beta blocker used to treat hypertension, anxiety and panic.
So your PTSD (up goes adrenaline) -> lyme symptoms elevated -> eventual diagnosis of lyme?
Get the PTSD (memory down) via that beta blocker (Propranolol) -> lyme in remission?
Beta Blocker?
Beta blockers block the action of endogenous catecholamines epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noradrenaline) in particular, on β-adrenergic receptors, part of the sympathetic nervous system which mediates the fight-or-flight response.
Wikipedia.
My sis has had the following joints replaced: shoulders, both knees and both hips.
She was dx'd with lyme 12 years ago, but was first accidentally given steroids and zoom...lyme took off.
Disasterous.
Fear (adrenaline rush)-> steroid release?
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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beths
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18864
posted
It could be a mild rotator cuff injury which could flare up. Why don't you have a physical theraist look at it?
Posts: 1276 | From maryland | Registered: Jan 2009
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It looks to be really important to get adrenaline down...
See the post today from the person who is getting well...regarding eliminating sugar and caffeine. I responded with the "why" that may be helping.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I have a lot of experience with shoulder pain, and all kinds of spinal pain. I suffered for decades with what I was told was just really severe osteoarthritis. I know now it was Lyme all along.
Borrelia destroyed my joints. I've had four shoulder surgeries, two of them were shoulder replacements. Two spinal surgeries, two hand surgeries. All due to LYME.
Borrelia eats cartilage. It loves to hang out in tendons and ligaments where there is very little blood-flow.
Lyme frequently attacks a large joint. Usually it's the knee, but not ALWAYS. That large joint can be the shoulder, like it was in my case. Of course my dumb docs went and injected corticosteroids into the joints which only made things worse.
If you are treating for Lyme, the borrelia will be "on the run" and will move around. They may like your shoulder now, but if you keep treating (must go after biofilm too) they will eventually succumb, or perhaps move to another joint.
My knees were the only joints that were relatively free of problems UNTIL my third year of treatment. Had major knee pain, with one knee swelling. I knew it was Lyme, and have been just waiting it out while I treat with abx. Slowly the knees are getting better.
Borrelia can permanently damage joints, BUT once you get rid of the active infection, a LOT of your pain will go away. Where there is infection there is inflammation. Get rid of the bugs and the inflammation will subside.
-------------------- Sick since at least age 6, now 67. Decades of misdiagnosis. Numerous arthritic, neuro, psych, vision, cardiac symptoms. Been treating for 7 years, incl 8 mos on IV. Bart was missed so now treating that. Posts: 765 | From nw ct | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
My shoulder pain feels like I would imagine rotator cuff pain would be like.
Search this I posted something similar titled what is your joint pain like Or something to that effect. A month or so ago
-------------------- Tick bite in 2006, bullseye rash, treated with 2 rounds of 2 weeks of doxy. (once in 2006, once in 2009) Dx with chronic Lyme May 2011. LLMD April 2012, Treating with omnicef/zith Lots of supplements! Posts: 640 | From Connecticut | Registered: Apr 2011
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
Pain under the shoulder blade can also be referred pain from a toxic liver. You may want to see if that's something to look into.
Stress always makes everything worse. Meditation helps me when I've had to deal with stress. I use CDs by Dr. Jeffrey Thompson or Hemi-sync. They work really well! You can get them on-line or at some healthfood stores.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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Carol in PA
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5338
posted
Michael, See if you can get LED light therapy treatment for your shoulder. Physical therapy departments should have this.
Alternately, pulsed electromagnetic field therapy, or PEMF, would probably help too.
Editing to add, you can do pulsed electromagnetic field therapy with the SOTA Mag Pulser. http://www.sota.com/magnetic-pulser.html (You can google for a discount coupon.)
Caution...that video has lots of flashing graphics in the beginning. Just a warning if that causes you problems.
Posts: 6947 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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MichaelTampa
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 24868
posted
Thank you all for your responses. It sounds like a couple had experiences where this type of pain really can be from bugs.
My doc, from his experience and understanding of the theory, does believe based on my history that this reoccurring shoulder pain is very likely from the bugs. Often the ozone injections help so quickly it is hard to see how they can be helping regeneration that quickly, as opposed to killing bugs.
Anyway, he did give me a script for an MRI, so we will do that somewhat with the idea to rule out structural damage that needs other attention. And we will start up the ozone injections again, which did help before.
I have used PEMF before for other things and it was helpful--this doc has one of those machines--but he hasn't recommended it here. I just asked my pendulum and it said it would be excellent to do the PEMF just prior to the ozone injections, so I'll ask the doc if that makes good enough sense to him.
I actually have done a lot of work on the memory and trauma of the PTSD and the lyme remains a problem. I have had lyme since childhood and the trauma really fed the lyme and allowed it to make everything much worse, so here it seems simply removing the memory is not enough. The lyme had a great foothold well before the trauma.
I have used meditation as well. I used the Holosync CD's for a while and am now using Lifeflow. I have found both excellent.
I do have much chronic fatigue now, although the shoulder pain is on the left side so I don't think it is referred from the liver. I did a parasite treatment a bit over a month ago (2 full moons ago) and really stirred things up a lot in terms of the lyme, so the timing of the shoulder pain coincides more with that event than anything else. I had done much parasite treatment about several months to a year ago, but the pendulum said it was time again to do that, and, wow, what a response!
I have seen in other areas, such as jaw/TMJ area and foot area, the lyme will hang out in areas that are the weak parts of the body. Parts that maybe aren't what one would traditionally called damaged, but places that got maybe a little over-stressed from exercise, or from jaw misalignment, and that's where they go. In a sense these places probably are having minor damage and need healing but once the lyme gets there, treating the lyme probably becomes the overriding concern to help the area get well.
Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010
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ukcarry
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18147
posted
I have had bouts of quite disabling pain in and below my left shoulder during the illness; I've not had it for a while and now think it may have been at its worst during antibiotic treatment.
I was pretty sure that it was Lyme/Lyme treatment related, but that may not be the case with you.
Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
I had shoulder pain from lyme so bad I could not move my arm for a month. Levaquin brought it back on. So the infections do cause this. If the pain is from borellia it will flare every 28 days or so. Mine was worse with the full moons.
FL1953 can also cause joint pain which is why it is now named Protomyxzon Rheumatica (rheumatoid). It causes chronic fatigue as does babesia. The most effective treatment is a low fat whole foods vegan diet and stromectol (ivermectin).
Hypercoagulated blood can cause body pain but it is usually in the lower legs. Hypercoagulation goes along with chronic infections and it reduces oxygen to the cells, limits the penetration of abx into the tissue and slows down detox. You can reduce this with heparin or lumbrokinase/boluoke.
Things that help;
If you can afford it, get a methyl cycle mutations test so you can treat your abnormalities. These mutations can set you up for flight or flight responses way beyond what is normal. You have less dopamine and serotonin. You have more excitotoxins. The mutations also set you up for auto immune disease, cancer, chronic disease etc. Chronic fatigue is very common. MTHFR causes hypercoagulation.
Low Level LASER Therapy (not LED) can help you. It is much more powerful than LED light and the machines cost a lot more (at least $12,000). They can put it directly on the shoulder to stimulate circulation and healing. It is extremely good for reducing pain.
LLLT on your brain stem and sympathetic nerves will help you detox the emotional trauma. It works on animals that cannot respond with the placebo effect. On acupuncture points, it stimulates endorphins and helps heal specific organs. I am getting treatment from a chiropractor and it only costs $15 a session.
Low Dose Naltrexone stimulates the production of endorphins. This is extremely calming and helps with PTSD. THe endorphins also stimulate the immune system. If there is any auto immune thing going on LDN will halt it. Be sure you get it from a compounding pharmacy that knows how to mix it correctly. I mix my own.
I do not know what this is called but it is a way of releasing the trauma. You make the rapid eye movement of deep REM sleep (back and forth) while you are thinking about the trauma. This is supposed to process it out like a bad dream. Do this until you feel a release.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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17hens
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 23747
posted
Shoulder pain (like rotator cuff damage) was one of my symptoms BEFORE I got sick, although I was already infected.
X-ray showed nothing, physical therapy only made it worse. Lifting anything hurt, even arm hanging down hurt. It was terrible.
During treatment, it returned for a few days then completely left, never to be seen again.
IMO, it was related to Babesia but who knows.
Shoulder pain is on the symptom list at Augsburg Borrelia Clinic in Germany. Wise folks.
-------------------- "My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." Psalms 73:26
bit 4/09, diagnosed 1/10 Posts: 3043 | From PA | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
I mentioned that borrelia LOVES cartilage. Well, it also loves SCAR tissue, which is tough and fibrous like tendons, ligaments, etc.
Frequently, when we have overused or strained a particular joint, the healing process will involve some scar tissue formation. Borrelia will gravitate to that area.
For decades I experienced itching of my old surgery scars. Now I know why - Borrelia was colonizing the scar tissue, just like they colonize tendons, ligaments, etc. These are areas with diminished blood flow, and low-oxygen levels. Borrelia are anaerobic - they hate oxygen.
Lyme patients very often have disastrous post-surgical results, for several reasons. One is that surgery causes scar tissue, and Bb will colonize that scar tissue. The other is that surgery is a trauma. Any stress or trauma, physical or emotional, can cause Lyme to flare.
-------------------- Sick since at least age 6, now 67. Decades of misdiagnosis. Numerous arthritic, neuro, psych, vision, cardiac symptoms. Been treating for 7 years, incl 8 mos on IV. Bart was missed so now treating that. Posts: 765 | From nw ct | Registered: Sep 2008
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
No...it's not Bb that loves cartilage, it is our response to Bb that is the problem
Find this:
Effect of a Herbal-Leucine mix on the ***IL-1b Induced cartilage degradation*** and inflammatory gene expression in human chondrocytes.
Meditation CD...One that should be used only with headphones:
Deep Meditation by Kelly Howell is INCREDIBLE.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Hello Members, I too suffer from shoulder pain, it`s been over a year now and the pain keeps getting worse.
My last relapse in January of 2008 I found out that I also had Bartonella and Mycoplasma Fermentans, after 17 years of dealing with tick borne I went out on disability retirement at that point.
My last relapse started with back spasms, then rib cage pain and then moved to my GI system to the point I lost 35 LBS and had constent pain in my lower abdomin.
I went to a few GI docs and all tests came back negative, I was told there was nothing they could do for me. On the advise of my LLMD I went to see Dr. B in New Jersey, he is a well known psyciatrist.
As I was walking out the door Dr. B. gave me a script for Doxepin, 10mg to start and then amp it up to 50 mg in a few weeks. The 1st night I took Doxepin I felt immediate relief, the first sign of relief in 3 years.
I am up to 150mg of Doxepin and have gained back 20 LBS. In the last year my GI issues are slowly resolving but I started to have pain in my right shoulder. I am on a maintenance program of ABX but the pain refuses to stop.
In desperration I went to a chiroprator last week, she did a lazor treatment on my right shoulder, I felt immediate relief. It was as if there was never any pain in my shouler.
That night I felt great, until I woke up the next morning. The pain I had in my GI system that was gone for almost 3 years was back with a vengence, the bacteria(s) had moved. In the last few days the pain also came back into my shoulder, I`ve been having muscle twitches like crazy all over my body.
I do believe what Paul said is true, that BB colinizes in certain areas of the body. The lazor treatment really ****ed (it)Lyme, Babesiosis, Ehrilichiosis, Bartonella or Mycoplasma Fermentan off, here I thought I was doing a good thing and now I`m paying a price.
Has anyone tried lazor treatment for Lyme and co.with any relief? I know one thing the bug(s) do not like the heat. I am thinking of doing the lazor again on my GI area but need advise. If anyone has tried lazor treatment(s) and has any info to share I`d much appreciate any advise.
I don`t want to matters worse. God Bless the Lyme community. POP
Posts: 57 | From N.C. | Registered: Jun 2003
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Carol in PA
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5338
posted
POP, When you say "laser treatment," do you mean low level laser therapy?
I think this is also the same as LED light therapy, which you can buy an instrument for.
The LED light transmits energy to the ATP in the mitochondria in each cell, helping the cells to make energy and function better. The cells heal very quickly after this.
LED light therapy reduces pain and inflammation. It is not "masking" the symptoms, it is fixing them.
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