lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
i will read later
i am obese-have been for a long time now. have had lyme a long time too.
all i know is i eat healtier and less than many many ppl who are not obese
i gave up trying to figure it all out awhile ago -more than once diets put me in hospital
now i eat a unprocessed as i can...and do what makes me feel strong and not about to pass out
i will go back and read above late...but every other week it seems a new study comes out and its really hard to understand how good they are without really studying them
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Emla, thanks so much for those links. It's very important to shine some light on that as there is so much judgement and even hatred of those who carry "too much" adipose tissue.
Even doctors don't really believe that many with infection-caused obesity don't sit home all day eating the last of the world's Twinkie supply.
Lyme can also cause obesity, even in those with excellent health habits. But, since most doctors discount lyme altogether, it's good to consider the wider range of infections that can cause or trigger obesity.
Other infections can, too. And certain medicines as well. From a search a while ago:
[You would want to go beyond this to research side-effects of statins if your friend is on statins. There's much to learn there that is not easy to find in all the pharmaceutical public relations articles.] -
- For some, early weight loss is followed later by gain - for seemingly no apparent reason (as many maintain a healthful diet).
This book & site explain why lyme, and Cpn, caused serious weight gain in some patients and how, once the infection(s) were addressed, it just seemed to nearly fall off.
One of the important points, though, is that even thin people can have fatty veins (a sort of "interior obesity"), so this book is for everyone, not just those carrying more weight:
As good as that book is to help understand the how and why of infection related obesity, it does not do much to tell us what can help.
Assuming one's diet is rich in good nutrients, and enough of them (as too many try to go without),
Adrenal Support is where to begin. Detail in the link at the top if this post, the Borrelia-Weight link.
However, as EMLA's post today shows us - it may not JUST be lyme. It can be any number of other infections or influences, too. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Adrenal support is mentioned as a place to begin, regaring the information in the Potbelly book.
However, as EMLA's links imply, the infection detailed in the new work points to the toxins from the infection. Sounds familair to those of us who know that lyme produces some serious toxins.
Of course, ADDRESSING THE INFECTION(s) are key.
In no way with all this support stuff do I intend to dimiss that first and continuous step (for as long as needed if it's a stealth infection).
Along with that, LIVER SUPPORT makes even more sense to help the body with the detox efforts.
But too much exercise can be harmful (also maybe why it's harder for those with lyme). As with increased activity, the liver may not be able to keep up with the toxins released by the liver when pushed beyond what it can manage.
The same kinds of exercise suggested for those with lyme would, I think, also be good for others with endotoxin / infection related obesity. Non-aerobic movement that still promotes circulation and gives the muscles some gently push.
One herb that helps with lyme, Smilax (sarsaparilla) helps reduce endotoxins in the gut. Carob Root Powder does, too. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
I think that bacteria and genetics can absolutely be a reason why people gain weight and become obese, esp people with lyme.
However, I do not think lifestyle can be fully discounted either. I have a good friend who was significantly overweight much of her life. Why? Poor diet and exercise. When she changed her eating habits and began to move more, she lost weight and became much healthier.
I say this not with any judgement. I am a thin woman by nature and I cannot change that, just as people who are meant to be heavier cannot change that. But to blame obesity solely on factors outside of ones personal health habits is a tad too reductionist I think. Jess
Posts: 870 | From ct | Registered: Nov 2012
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Emla,
I hope you don't feel as it your thread has been highjacked but rather, taken off in popularity due to its importance.
As a topic very close to my heart for a variety of reasons, I just couldn't hold back.
Your new posts are encouraging that, maybe - finally - some scientists, doctors and the general public will grow a heart in how they come to understand this medical matter.
I'm so glad to see your new posts. Thanks. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Jessica,
You say: " . . . o not think lifestyle can be fully discounted either. I have a good friend who was significantly overweight much of her life. Why? Poor diet and exercise." (end quote)
She may have exercise intolerance, a very serious medical condition, actually and few are truly knowledgeable about that.
I know it is nearly painful when we see others make choices that we think are not good. Still, We just don't have the full picture.
First, that is not the population that we are talking about here.
Second, we still don't have all the details as to what is driving her behavior. Infections could still be in the driver's seat even for those with what we see as poor food choices.
Especially if they have toxins circulation and adrenal stress and are tired and fuzzy brained they are not as able to make the best choices for that instant energy.
I call upon everyone to discard all judgement about why anyone carries excess weight.
True, junk food doesn't fly off the store shelves on its own but we just can't know the whole reason. The MSG in that food is very highly addictive and those with any kind of infection are more prone to its pull.
So much we don't know and we just have to not judge anyone for their weight.
For those close to us, we can have plenty of good food around, of course. But the focus is about health.
Please do not focus on anyone's weight in judgement. Please.
I beg everyone to see that it's far more complex than we may realize. I hope that we do not add to the suffering of those who are "swollen" or "puffed" - it's just very complex.
It's not our place to judge but, rather, to understand and afford strangers and acquantances their privacy in this matter.
Where we can promote good opportunities, great. Take carrots everywhere you go. Share. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Keebler, I stated very clearly that I am in no way passing judgement on people who are obese.
One is not judging someone by stating that personal responsibility can be a factor in some cases of obesity.
Hypersensitivity is as bad as harsh judgements. I would never judge someone for their weight. But I also cannot help but point out that lifestyle factors matter with weight, EVEN in cases of infection. Jess.
Posts: 870 | From ct | Registered: Nov 2012
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- I hope you can read the POTBELLY book as it details many with lyme and Cpn who had excellent lifestyle choices and still gained much weight, even over a hundred pounds - for no apparant reason.
That book is a real eye-opener. Some gained weight even on very restrictive caloric intake. So, it shows there is much more at work.
The detail here in this thread is mostly about those who have good food choices - as it's the only way we'd stand a chance against lyme.
Still, there is just so much at work behind the food choices of others. It is judging when we assume we know all about what is going on with them. There are so many apsects to this issue.
Learning about the neuro-addictive pull of food additives has certianly helped me better understand that, in part, at least - when I see some fast foods fly out of the stores.
It's bad stuff so there's got to be a chemical addiction going on there. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
I am the least judgemental person you will ever meet when it comes to weight. My best friend nearly died of anorexia...I do not judge the weight of others..ever.
I still believe personal responsibility is a factor in all cases of weight issues, even my own. I am underweight not just because of my infections but because I consciously was avoiding food because I was afraid of it making me sick. I was also partially responsible for my weight loss. That is not to say I am to blame, but I also had a role to play.
We all make choices. Being in a sick body does not allay our personal responsibilities. That being said, the size of our body should never be a reason for anyone to judge us or make us feel ashamed in any way. Jess.
Posts: 870 | From ct | Registered: Nov 2012
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- By assuming others fail in their "personal responsibilities" is judgement in and of itself because we can't know all that goes on before and during their choices.
I have to think that most really are doing the best they can, given all that they face in this space and time.
For those who have room for healthful adjustments, I wish them well, indeed. We all have room for some adjustments as that's usually just the way life goes.
Surely, our society and culture could help but the corporations drive the food market so being aware of that matters, too. Local farmers have been left out to dry. But there are some good changes going on with more farmers' markets, better food in schools, etc.
The obesity epidemic is - partly - tied to explosion of food additives and processed "food" substities.
For some reading here who may be knew to the full range of self help required by those with lyme, this thread may be helpful to explain just why such foods are detrimental and/or addictive, regardless of a person's size.
Corn Syrup is not included in this set as anyone with lyme is likely already avoiding that. But corn syrup is a serious problem in processed foods that can trigger weight gain and health risks far beyond the calorie count.
posted
Now you are making a judgement. To be obese isnt a failure of personal responsibility but it can be a consequence of certain choices one makes.
You cannot debate someone on an issue if you constantly call them judgemental simply because they disagree with you. Jess.
Posts: 870 | From ct | Registered: Nov 2012
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- Why does how someone looks matter to the rest of us? I just wonder how we humans take so much effort to be concerned with how others look?
And, about weight, it always results in judgment, whether someone is at one end or the other of the spectrum.
And we also tend to want to judge everything that we SEE anyone eat. How would I know if they are just having a rare treat?
Just a rhetorical question / observation. Really. It's just so sad because we just can't know what anyone else is going through. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Keebler, we definitely do not disagree on that looks issue. It annoys me to no end when people comment on people's appearance, as if that is the sole determinant of their personal worth.
Weight comments do not always result in judgement, however. That I take issue with.
Health is what matters, not weight necessarily, although extremes in any area with weight can have major and at times deleterious health impacts. Jess.
Posts: 870 | From ct | Registered: Nov 2012
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Kudzuslipper
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 31915
posted
interesting. I have been overweight all my life (well since I was 5) truthfully, the only time I successfully lost any amount of weight was when I was in college had an undiagnosed gastric ulcer the size of an egg and vomited everything I ate. tried to sooth the pain (which was in my back not my stomach) with vodka and asprin (like most college kids)
I was miserable, green and sweaty- cause it turned into Hep A. but people were complimenting me on how wonderful I looked. I literally could not go anywhere without vomiting in the street.
do I wish I were thinner? absolutely. especially now, that my joints ache. When I go shopping for clothing. and when I catch a picture of myself. I try to eat healthy. I have times when I don't, but no more than most people. but I don't worry too much anymore. it is who I am. that being said... back to being stricter about the bad carbs after the holidays.
I wish I could exercise more. that I will admit is lack of discipline.
Posts: 1728 | From USA | Registered: May 2011
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posted
I love your post Kudzu!! I am also glad that you have come to a place of self acceptance. And thanks for admitting that yes our choices can effect our body size. I know my choices have impacted mine as well...only difference is I am gaunt. That being said, health and self acceptance are indeed what matters most. Jess.
Posts: 870 | From ct | Registered: Nov 2012
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Exercise tolerance is not always about disciple. The endocrine system must be healthy to do that. The liver must be strong and clear, too.
Infection also stresses the heart & brain & neuro tissues so the body is more protective and sort of tells us to cool it, to some degree.
Rather than think of it as exercise, thinking of it as just "moving" can often help. Non-aerobic activity is best for those who are ill and there are so many ways to find some movement that is enjoyable.
I had to alter my definition of "exercise" to just the "joy of some kind of movement through space." That really helps.\ -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
Topic: To everyone with CARDIAC symptoms please read!
Includes:
Cardiac explanations & support
Dr. B's SAFE EXERCISE and PT Rehab guidelines,
EXERCISE INTOLERANCE is (partially) explained in the article: "when exercise doesn't work out" (and what we can do about that)
MITOCHONDRIA, MYELIN & ADRENAL SUPPORT
------------------
VESTIBULAR (inner/middle ear & balance) ISSUES can also cause someone to not be able to exercise as they'd like.
There have been long stretches of time where I could not even stretch any limb as it caused my head to move and that worsened vertigo and vomiting. This seems to be more prominent in those with vestibular fistulas.
Massage therapy can help those in such a situation so that the body tissue, muscles & tendons gets moved manually while the head can remain as still as possible. -
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Kudzuslipper
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 31915
posted
Jess, I am not saying it is totally choice. I am human, but I do think it is more difficult for me than most...whether is is infection, or more fat cells because I have always been overweight but I think Keebler makes good points on this too...
my main point for posting my experience though, was how warped society is for applauding my weight loss, even though It was the result of being terribly sick. even to the point my mom wondered if I had become anorexic, but thought we should wait to get help until I was skinny!
Posts: 1728 | From USA | Registered: May 2011
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Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
Dear Friends,
Another situation here is that GENETICALLY MODIFIED FOODS have come into the system, unlabeled, in the last 15 years and also high levels of antibiotics and hormones fed to commercially raised animals to fatten them up quickly.
Either of these factors can also bring on or worsen any tendency to gain weight, from whatever source.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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emla999/Lyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12606
posted
Keebler said,
quote: Emla,
I hope you don't feel as it your thread has been highjacked but rather, taken off in popularity due to its importance.
I don't feel like my thread has been highjacked. When I see a piece of research that is interesting to me I will often post it here on Lymenet just in case other people might also find it interesting or helpful in some way. So, I am sort of glad to see all of the posts.
Posts: 1223 | From U.S.A | Registered: Jul 2007
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emla999/Lyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12606
posted
Also,
Speaking of intestinal endotoxins.
Supposedly, eating raw carrots may help to eliminate endotoxins from the body.
For years, the biologist/endocrine physiologist, Dr.Ray Peat has recommended that people eat raw carrots everday to remove intestinal endotoxins. Or even better, he recommends that you eat a raw carrot salad everyday that consists of shredded carrots, coconut or olive oil, a little vinegar and a little added salt.
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
Interesting about carrots...! I'll read it later. I didn't get to read everything here. You may want to look into the research being done on the human biome, too.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Has the subject of leptin (a hormone) come up yet?
Leptin isn't accepted yet by mainstream docs and tell the truth----- there's a reason for that. But....... maybe somewhere, sometime leptin will be researched fully.
Posts: 2 | From the desert | Registered: Nov 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Eker,
No, I dont' think it's come up yet in this discussion. Great catch. LEPTIN can be a significant player, indeed.
Quite a few articles about that can be found in the library of Vitamin Research Products at www.vrp.com
Although they are a supplement company, their research articles have wonderful 3rd party input and good research from outside of their group.
VRP's articles on Weight Management -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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AuntyLynn
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Member # 35938
posted
UM ... carrots are one of the sweetest vegetables one can eat. Try celery sticks.
Posts: 1432 | From New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2012
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- Point taken that carrots alone can be too sweet. While certian considerations exist for those with candida, every body still needs the kind of total nutrition in a variety of vegetables.
Carrots are still excellent. The body requires glucose, protein and fat. We have to get all of those from somewhere and carrots are excellent in moderation and with other foods as well.
For those with liver stress, carrots are especially important and can help prevent a porphryia attack - something many with lyme need to consider.
Even those dealing with candida still need glucose for their body's cells. That's why combining foods is helpful to prolong the longeveity of the good carbs.
Adding protein and fat (and other complex carbs) is essential for the best rate of glucose absorption. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Carrots are the first thing my doctor said I should eat when I was diagnosed with porphyria. And that condition, in variations, often is part of having lyme, too.
Links here explain why glucose - but especially carrots - in the diet is so important and can even save a life in cases of high porphyrins:
posted
Dr S. (the mold guy) talks a lot about Leptin resistance and the inability to lose weight due to it.
He said 20% lose weight and 80% gain, and he believes the weight gain is due Leptin resistance, he also adds that if you have this going on it nearly impossible to lose weight.
The cause of Leptin resistance is biotoxin illness, Lyme and or mold.
Posts: 845 | From Northeast | Registered: May 2011
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
It's not celery - it has to be carrots since they have a special fiber in them (according to the researcher Ray Peat).
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