posted
Has anyone used the Chinese Herbs, Classical Pearls, to treat LD. I am trying them, along w/ antibiotics, etc, and am wondering if anyone else has experience with them. I have definitely herxed.
posted
Up -
Posts: 13116 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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GretaM
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posted
No, I haven't but thanks for posting. I like to learn about new things regarding lyme and co.
Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
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Nice support, just be clear that these do not address infection directly.
The "Gu" article is excellent, too, but also know that the author is not exactly lyme literate. I wasted 5 years of my life getting treatment (every 3 weeks with a formula change) with him that did not directly address any of the tick-borne infections - enough. It helped but it was very much lacking other than as support.
I did not know that then as I just left it up to him - I had no internet at the time (Google had not yet even come around back in 1997. He was the only option in my town at that time.)
Now, in all fairness, he may well have learned more in the years since I stopped seeing him. He does not appear to be ILADS educated in all the ins and outs of TBD, though. He is brilliant and has expertise in many other ways, though, that can complement TBD treatment.
Still, these formulas, while good support are not enough. Just to be clear.
ITM, the company making these, is a top quality company. They also have the Seven Forests, Pine Mountain and White Tiger labels. The best, and repected world-wide for their academic wisdom & research - and good quality.
The "Gu" article is also very, very important for our understanding of stealth infection. I must say it's one of the most influential and helpful articles in understanding the "soup" of chronic stealth infections in general. Yet, the treatment advice stops short regarding tick-borne infections and specific targeted treatment. Still, important reading, though. -
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Keebler
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posted
- A "herx" can certainly happen with some herbs. Smilax (Sarsaparilla), for instance.
However, with some formulas that do not directly affect infection, it may not be a "herx" if the formula is too "hot" in nature or with mostly strong yang herbs, it may be just agitating.
Examples include some of the ginsengs, ginger, etc.
Some formulas with "hot" or "yang" herbs are balanced with "cooling" or "yin" herbs and can create one workable for us - but some formulas are intended to be more energizing. Those would not likely be so good for anyone with lyme.
Which one of Classical Pearls formulas are you taking?
The "overall warming" formulas may not be the best for someone with lyme who has adrenal fatigue, any heart rhythm irregularities or magnesium deficiency (as that can bring with it agitation and a "warming formula" can further agitate). -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Thank you. I am using it as support, along w/ antibiotics right now, however; I am hoping that someday I can wean off the drugs and maintain with herbs. Did you have experience w/ doing this? I am rotating Dragon,Thunder,Lightning and am on Peace also.
Posts: 8 | From Oregon | Registered: Aug 2010
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Keebler
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- You would be best with an ILADS educated LL ND (naturopathic doctor), of which there are at least 3 in Oregon.
I have to stop now but will look at the formulas you list later. My first impression is caution for anything labeled "Thunder" or "Lightening" -- but I'll look at the ingredients later.
Contact your area lyme support groups for the names of the ILADS educated LL NDs in the state: Go right to the bottom of this page:
posted
I do see a LLMD in CA as well as this local naturopath who is prescribing these herbs. A naturopath in his office, who also does Chinese Med, reviewed the herbs and felt ok with it. Thanks for your advice though. I will look at this OR list too. Always good to know and thanks for reviewing these ingredients.
Posts: 8 | From Oregon | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
Wow, thank you for this link. I have not seen this before.
Posts: 8 | From Oregon | Registered: Aug 2010
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Keebler
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posted
- A naturopathic doctor who is not ILADS educated will not be able to properly guide you regarding most herbal formulas. That has been my experience, over the many years.
Even if you see a LLMD on another state, the ND you see in your home state should be ILADS educated, too. There are some very unique things that only someone ILADS educated would understand in the assessment of even a support protocol.
Now, it may be that you don't have access to a LL ND near you. And I'm sure the NDs in the office where you go are all top notch, in their own ways. So, they may call and then get to know the LL NDs in the state who are ILADS educated.
There was a conference about a year ago by two LL NDs, training others. So, you could find out who those attendees where (who are near you) . . . and it may be that ND with whom you work would want to become ILADS educated.
There is a one-day course, at least, just for that purpose, the day before the ILADS conference next month in San Diego. -
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Keebler
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- Recently got an email reply to my inquiry and have not checked in the last week to see if maybe a change but -- about web streaming the conference as done in the past 2 years. Sad news but I figure this must cost a ton of money and a lot of staff power / equipment. Sigh.
ILADS Response: "At this time there is no plan to live stream the San Diego Conference."
ILADS is proud to announce a one day Basic Lyme course in San Diego, Thursday, October 17, 2013.
AMA CME Credits
This course is designed for medical professionals who are new to the treatment of tick-borne diseases, or would like a refresher course on the basics of diagnosis and treatment. It will also serve as a primer for physician assistants and nurse practitioners who are practicing in the offices of Lyme literate physicians.
ILADS encourages participants to continue their learning October 18-20 at the annual ILADS conference in San Diego
ILADEF PHYSICIAN TRAINING PROGRAM -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- I gave this my best shot. Also, I'm not any kind of herbalist. Just picking out a couple thoughts - cannot possible speak to all here as I'm not trained in all this. Just some thoughts from my own experiences from those that pop out to me.
"Dragon" formula has artemesia and also coptis, so you could certainly herx with either of those.
"Lightning" has artemesia and Smilax glabra. Both can cause a herx. The Gingko in that can be too stimulating for many with lyme but the Acorus may be enough to calm that down. Not sure, though, and I certainly can't speak to them all.
"Thunder" contains Astragalis, something that those with chronic lyme should not take in too large of an amount. If not too much and balanced, it can be fine, though, if not too stimulating to immune function (which is the issue).
The Glycyrrhiza glabra - licorice - can also be too stimulating but it can really help with low blood pressure and adrenal support. Can't tell how much is in here but just be mindful if it seems to stimulating to you.
"Peace" sure seems overall nice. Ziziphus as the first ingredient (assume that means there is more of it) is a fabulous herb. The Ginger in it (Zingiber officinale) could be a bit stimulating as well as the Licorice . . . but from my amatuer eyes, it seems balanced. Often, there is just a little bit of something stimulating to "keep it moving"
The "Peace" seems very similar to the Seven Forest Zizyphus formula which I really like.
They do look like fabulous formulas and I like that green clay is used as the only expedient (to hold it all together).
As these are (understandably) proprietary blends and the exact amounts of each ingredient are not there to figure out regarding your reactions, your ND should be able to tell if, overall, a certain formula could cause what you are experiencing in a "regular" person.
Just remember that what you think may be a "herx" might not be and that maybe it would be best to back down in your dose of any formula that seems a bit too much for you. It can take a while to work up to desired amount. And what "should" work in theory just may not for every person.
I'm sure your ND has you starting with just one pill a day to see how that affects you, by itself.
Good luck. -
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posted
Wow, thanks for your incites. I had recognized the Art since I have taken that through my LLMD but the others I wasn't really sure about. This gives me lots to think about.
Posts: 8 | From Oregon | Registered: Aug 2010
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Keebler
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posted
- You can search most individual ingredients here to learn more. Also then search at PubMed. So often, there are some very nice medical abstracts for many herbs, though search there with both common name and it's official name (or two).
But remember, lyme / TBD can change everything about what a body needs or how it may react.
You may also be interested in their book "Bag of Pearls" for "light" reading. Not at all about lyme but it details how they've chosen various combinations of all their formulas. Teaches a bit about balancing. -
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Keebler
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posted
- Though not at all about lyme, this is one of the best reference resources on my bookshelf that has wonderful chapters, many graciously available through their website.
Essential Concepts and Vocabulary -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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posted
- One more note and I'll leave you be. These formulas discussed in this thread are of good source and don't contain additives.
However, when I speak to dangers of over stimulation, it's not just about
zooming an immune system that is too weak to be zoomed,
pushing adrenal issues
or even heart rhythm that can be so tender with lyme.
The nerve fibers, themselves, can be just too "fried" so to speak so can't handle anything that stimulates.
And many can misinterpret that as a "herx" when it is not.
Some other products that may draw those with lyme because they promise energy can contain stuff below. Just wanting to be sure you have this. See the Wilson article here for reference to stuff that overstimulates those with lyme.
I'm using "stuff" way too much so this is it. Promise. All done.
See post: Caution: Aspartate; Glutamine; and Phenylalanine
Seaweed, too, can be far too stimulating due to its natural MSG
The ITM article here is also very good and while not addressing lyme, it certainly does address an issue that all with lyme face. -
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Keebler
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- Oops. One more. You mentioned that when you are able to get off antibiotics you wondered how to maintain remission with just herbs. A LL ND would be best guidance, of course.
And, you might be interested in also exploring rife - or at least having this as part of this reference set in your personal file:
posted
Wow, you are a wealth of information. I read your last link and I do have problems w/ anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, tremors, startles. My cortisol levels have been very high throughout the entire day so have been on adrenal support as well. I am down to mostly neuro symptoms and have also been seeing a Neurological Chiropractor who determined problems w/ my eyes, balance (which I knew) and over stimulation of my brain. Being overly stimulated has become a big problem driving. My eyes are trying to pick up every object that is moving toward me, thus causing anxiety and fatigue. I've wondered if some of my neuro symptoms could be due to meds, not nec from infections, esp since some of the eye exercises he had me do helped my head twitch after about 2 wks. Ugh! So much to consider and very little answers!
Posts: 8 | From Oregon | Registered: Aug 2010
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Keebler
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posted
- A "Neurological Chiropractor" ? Hope he/she never suddenly twists your neck or spine. Never, ever, twist neck or spine. The one you see may not do that and may be very good. Just be aware that sudden twisting of neck / spine is a huge "no-no" for lyme. It can cause all kinds of problems.
I can't read the rest most of your post (solid text turns to a grey swirl) at all but that just jumped out from upper or lower lines.. If you are not comfortable for any reason, see if you can find someone trained in UPLEDGER INSTITUTE style of cranial-sacral. That is a safe gentle but effective style.
The eyes and balance? Glad some eye exercises are helping. ee EAR thread below for other vestibular eye exercises and YOGA FOR THE EYES
Magnesium is very important, too, for eye stability if nystagmus is an issue (as is often common with lyme):
Topic: TINNITUS: Ringing Between The Ears; Vestibular, Balance, Hearing with compiled links - including HYPERACUSIS
You mention trouble with meds. I assume your ND has you on things to cover all the bases here with liver support, I hope. This can make (or the absence can break) the success of any protocol.
LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links, too. -
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beachcomber
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posted
EMW: I am doing the Gu Syndrome treatment protocol that my Oriental Medicine Doctor and ND have tailored for me, with my LLMD's OK. It is a trial and tweaking process.
I first spent some time addressing adrenal fatigue. I also did various blood and breath testing, to verify SIBO and to be sure my liver function was adequate.
7 years of antibiotic therapy with an LLMD, along with complimentary therapies, did not get me well enough. I am 3 weeks into the Pearls and have noticed a return of some early Lyme & cos symptoms. I also notice movement of, what I can best guess are parasites, from one area of my gut to another.
I also support with acupuncture, meditation, nutrition, light exercise, etc.
I have been using Classical Pearls for almost a year now and I am back to 95% normal. (I was on ABX for 4 years before that with progress but could never get over that final hump.)
I rarely feel like I have Lyme or co-infections at all anymore. The most important thing: Classical Pearls need to be administered and monitored by a highly-qualified Chinese medicine practitioner. Taking just one of these herbal formulas on its own is not going to be effective. The protocol needs to be tailored to the individual. I also do my herbs in conjunction with acupuncture. It's really important to me.
-------------------- Successfully treated for Lyme and co-infections. Keep seeking what works for you and don't stay with treatment that is not working!! Posts: 1 | From Cleveland, OH | Registered: Jan 2014
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posted
hezaa, thanks for sharing. How wonderful that they have worked so well for you! I have heard great things about them and would like very much to find a practitioner to add them to my protocol.
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GretaM
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posted
Am trying lightning pearls.
I love the nice herbal smell when I open the bottle, and what they leave on my fingers before I put them in my mouth.
Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
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GretaM
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posted
Go to their website and they have a list.
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Keebler
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posted
- When considering herbal / nutritional / adjunct methods, because lyme is so very complex & unique, as are possible coinfections:
if at all possible - because each person & each case is different - it's best to consult with an ILADS-educated LL ND (lyme literate naturopathic doctor) (or similar) who has completed four years of post-graduate medical education in the field of herbal and nutritional medicine -
- and someone who is current with ILADS' research & presentations, past and present, and has completed the ILADS Physician Training Program (see: www.ilads.org )
so they really know all they can about the science of lyme . . . how lyme (& other TBD) act and what we can do about that in various ways.
Many LL NDs incorporate antibiotics (depending upon the licensing laws in their state). Some LLMDs and LL NDs have good working relationships.
When possible, it's great to have both a LLMD and LL ND and even better when they have a long-standing professional relationship.
Herbal Safety considerations & reference books; etc.
Links to many articles and books by holistic-minded LL doctors of various degrees who all have this basic approach in common:
Understanding of the importance of addressing the infection(s) fully head-on with specific measures from all corners of medicine;
knowing which supplements have direct impact, which are only support and which are both.
You can compare and contrast many approaches with links to articles, books, methods . . . . -
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MichaelTampa
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I have been using some of these as well. I have a very well informed DOM/acupuncturist who knows much about chinese herbs. So while she was not using them before, she is able to help with them.
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2roads
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posted
Anyone heard of Dadue and Sokzin. Dadue is for inflammation and detox. Sokzin is for detox and antioxidant.
Also anyone try Semde for mood stabilizer?
These are Tibetan herbs.
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beachcomber
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Reporting back: I am about 10 months into a rotation of Lightning, Earth, Amber, Thunder and Bamboo. Lightning is rough on me with the neurological things that get kicked up. Thunder definitely clears some things out of my intestines. The others are supportive.
I went from 20% functional to 50% while treating with the Classical Pearls. Then I got another parasitic infection and dropped down to 30%.
The Pearls seem to work mainly on my gut issues. I have SIBO, probably from too many antibiotics. This is slow going, but I am sticking with it, as I have seem improvement. There is good evidence that immune function is dependent upon a healthy gut.
Michael is correct. You need a good DOM/Lac to prescribe and monitor the process. I like the one I work with.
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I read your last link and I do have problems w/ anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, tremors, startles. My cortisol levels have been very high throughout the entire day so have been on adrenal support as well. I am down to mostly neuro symptoms and have also been seeing a Neurological Chiropractor who determined problems w/ my eyes, balance (which I knew) and over stimulation of my brain. Being overly stimulated has become a big problem driving. My eyes are trying to pick up every object that is moving toward me, thus causing anxiety and fatigue. I've wondered if some of my neuro symptoms could be due to meds, not nec from infections, esp since some of the eye exercises he had me do helped my head twitch after about 2 wks. Ugh! So much to consider and very little answers!
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