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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Resistant thrush - how can I kill it? :(

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Author Topic: Resistant thrush - how can I kill it? :(
SickSam
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I have thrush that is continuing to spread.

It's resistant to:
Diflucan
Nystatin
Coconut oil
Garlic
Listerine
Oregaresp
Oregano oil
GSE (I don't even know if this is supposed to kill thrush.)

I've tried OLE before and it didn't seem to work either.

Any way I can kill this stuff? This is so discouraging.

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Lymetoo
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try ORAVIG .. it's yucky but it worked for me in one day.

Prescription

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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SickSam
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That's awesome, thanks Lymetoo! I'll ask about it. I honestly thought I was out of options.
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Jordana
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Is it just in your mouth?Have you tried a hydrogen peroxide swish?
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Lymetoo
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The oravig is supposed to stick to your upper gum for 24 hours. You could even use 1/2 tablet if it's easier.

It's hard to tolerate .. or was for me... but by the next day, all was well.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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SickSam
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I haven't tried peroxide. Maybe I should try that. I have some gut yeast but right now it's much worse in my mouth.

I don't think I'd mind the oravig sticking to my gums. It'd be worth it to get rid of this thrush.

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Jordana
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Just swish with food grade h peroxide.

There's lots on the internet that says this is the Wrong Thing to Do but I swear it's always worked for me. Give it three days of swishing and see.

I upgraded from H202 from coconut oil pulling, which also worked pretty well. I just got tired of doing it since you're supposed to do that for twenty minutes whereas H202 is a five second swish.

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OtterJ
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For oral thrush, one to two drops of tea tree oil in a small glass of water. Rinse only, DONT SWALLOW!
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OtterJ
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If it is intestinal, I like NOW's candida cleanse that has Pau d'Arco in it.
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SickSam
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Thanks all, I'll give it a shot!
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bluelyme
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One doc uses lufernuron...some say baking soda .fire tree bark worked a little.keep us posted. ..

--------------------
Blue

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SickSam
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Sure will, thanks!

So far I've tried peroxide, salt water, and rubbing thyme oil in my mouth, in addition to chewing raw garlic (which used to work really well) and pulling with coconut oil.

For a few days the thyme, peroxide, and salt water helped somewhat, but I think they've already lost their effectiveness.

My doc called in a prescription for oravig, so I'm gonna try that too. But man, that stuff is expensive!

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Lymetoo
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I hope it works for you!!

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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TF
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Read page 34 of Burrascano, "Managing Yeast Overgrowth."

It works. Most drastic treatment for mouth is bleach in water. Read what Burrascano says.

You have to be sure you scrub the entire mouth (cheeks, roof of mouth, both sides of tongue, etc) to scrape off the yeast, whatever you use. And do it for at least 30 seconds to kill the yeast.

After you finish and rinse with water, be sure to open a probiotic capsule and sprinkle it on your tongue and let it dissolve there. It could take 45 minutes. This restores good bacteria to the mouth.

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Brussels
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If yours is as persistent as mine, killing therapies will not work for long, only short term. And herxes are unbearable....

I am slowly changing strategies with the years. I used to use Sanum nosodes, they are mild, work pretty fast and well, but you need to know which nosode to take.

You can take loads of probiotics, strict diet, then candida killers, if you have like I have it, it won't go dormant with these strategies...

My problem is that it still comes back again. Every year a bit less long, but it still comes back annoyingly!! [cussing]

Last thing I'm trying, so far so good, is simply: treating my liver. No killing therapy.

Let's see for how long it stays under control!

I'm changing strategies and instead of avoiding sugars and carbs (I mean, I don't use added sugars for decades, but I do eat fruits), I'm avoiding bad hard to digest OILS.

I'm giving a break even on my beloved butter, but this intense treatment on the liver is paying back, I think. Or I pray!!! [Big Grin]

I'll let you know if it continues to work!!

If you know the theory of Enderlein, that microbes change depending on the milieu, you'll see why I'm doing that. The same good yeast you have to help you digest food can CHANGE to pathogenic candida, and then infect your body.

It's not killing that we need, but a way to make them go back again to yeast form.

You can google mycelial transformations or so. There are a lot of papers now showing the transformation. It's like Frankenstein!

this is just one type.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC315671/

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S13
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Candida is primarily a sign of immune deficiency. While good gut flora is important, a strong immune system is even more important.

Instead of killing, herxing, releasing toxins and further poisoning your immune system, you may want to try and get your immune system to work more effectively. Maybe look into things to strengthen macrophage and NK cell activity, and balance th1/th2. Candida needs a strong th1 response, so anything that pushes th2 can work against you (think of allergies, parasites, EBV, etc, but also certain supplements).

BTW, if its thrush like a white coated tongue, then that doesnt necessarily mean candida is the culprit! Bacteria cause a white coated tongue as well (though when this happens, again you probably have an immune problem and so candida will also be likely to be present in your gut).

All the things you do to strengthen your immune system will also come of help when dealing with borrelia.

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S13
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Also if you still want to use a good candida killer, then use Prescript Assist. Its a soil based probiotic. These bacteria do nothing else then eating fungi and keeping the soil clean of them.
Candida will not grow resistant to these soil based probiotics.

But still be very wary of the killing -> herx -> poisoning immune system cycle. Killing candida too fast can send you in a rapid downward spiral as your immune system breaks down even further and allows other bad things in your body to grow unimpeded.

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faithful777
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On third day of Oravig. Thrush is going away!!

--------------------
Faithful

Just sharing my experience, I am not a doctor.

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Lymetoo
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That's awesome, faithful! It's nasty, but it sure works.

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Opinions, not medical advice!

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faithful777
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I feel some side effects but not too bad. Nothing has worked so am glad this is.

--------------------
Faithful

Just sharing my experience, I am not a doctor.

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Brussels
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Fast solutions feel good! I'm thankful they exist.

But still, fixing the immune system is the only thing that takes you out of candida.

I read recently dr. K saying candida and Borrelia exchange DNA. You may get some positive lyme tests just because they detect DNA from Borrelia, but it now belongs to candida!!!!

Even if you no longer have active Borrelia!

Just think about that.

It all makes sense, why the heck literally everyone with chronic lyme:

1- fights candida on and off?

2- if on anti-candida treatment, start to improve with lyme symptoms too??

3- candida and lyme symptoms overlap so much?


This candida-borrelia partnership had always been a puzzle to me.

Everything that works well against candida, works with borrelia.


I'm sure both pathogens take advantage of the same FAILURE of our immune systems.

That is WHY only a long term solution is what will work, for both Borrelia and candida!!

Fixing the immune system is the only way out of chronicity, both for lyme and candida, that is my belief.

if not lyme, or candida, believe me, other nasty stuff will grow anyway if your immune system is failing you (I have the proof in my mouth, teeth, jaws etc).


Immunity has to be corrected for long term peace against ANY chronic infections. Think and aim at long term solutions.

but short term solutions are like haven, sometimes, I agree!!! They are not the aim, but just a resting place to enjoy life for a while again!!

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SickSam
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Sorry for the lack of replies lately. I'm just not well.

Just FYI, turns out Oravig has a mail-order program, and if your insurance doesn't cover the prescription they only charge you $75 total as a cash customer price. The local pharmacy wanted to charge me $900!

I've received it but I haven't used it yet. I've tried Burrascanos suggestions too, but I don't like the idea of putting bleach in my mouth. I do take Prescript Assist 3 times a day too, along with VSL.

I do need to strengthen my immune system. I just don't know how. I need to figure that out.

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tulips
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Don't use the bleach. Go on Amazon and type in "immune system" and the first item it pulls up is Old School Labs Vintage Advantage which got really good customer feedback. Read the customer feedback. It is a vitamin/probiotic formula. And anyone who is really sick should sneak up on a new supplement. If you decide to order it, start with 1 a day and if it sits well with you, you can increase it each day.
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tulips
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Once you increase your immunity, then probably the standard thrush remedies will work for you. What is the state of your Lyme? What are you taking for it?
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SickSam
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I'm trying to treat Bart with bactrim and levaquin, but I've been at that for 6 weeks with no improvement. I'm basically bedridden at this point, very sick. My heart is very inflamed.
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WPinVA
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I tried the bleach a while back. It didn't work.

I also found it impossible to hold the bleach in your mouth while scraping the inside of the mouth like he says to, without swallowing any of the bleach.

Frankly, I'm not sure if you'll be able to completely beat back the thrush while on heavy abx. Maybe just try to contain it for now.

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faithful777
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I am in remission with a good immune system but I have had resistant thrush. Nystatin knocked it back some but never got rid of it. And, I am not on abx.

Oravig was covered by my insurance and 14 days supply was $20.

--------------------
Faithful

Just sharing my experience, I am not a doctor.

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Brussels
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Allergies (any type of allergies), joint pain, swollen skin, joint, hands/ feet or any swollen lymph gland for more than a couple of days, candida, skin warts, herpes, gut inflammation, teeth / gum problems ....

... anything like that for more than a week = chronic immune problem.

The fact that many of us do not 'catch colds' does not mean we have a 'good' immune system.

It's only that we have a dysfunction in the immune system - it should be also fighting chronic lyme and chronic candida, but it doesn't.

Not catching colds, not developing fevers, not missing any day of work due to colds and flu is a sign of a weak immune system.

In the long term, expect low grade chronic infections to take hold your whole body, slowly, but surely.

I speak from own experience, after my lyme was gone (but not candida).


How to make your immune system better? If we got that million dollar answer for all, would be great.

There is no fast bullet solution:

- anti oxidants many times a day for life (Megahydrate is the best antioxidant that exists on planet earth), even though not cheap as turmeric, vit C...

- supportive food, raw food, food that fits your body, nourishes it, avoid all bad food, dead food.

- good water

- anything that cleans the body: sauna, infrared mats, PEMF devices, high frequency devices, plasma devices with cleaning frequencies, TENS frequencies, foot baths, ionic foot baths, whatever really, but done regularly, for months on...

- continuing on the clean side: binders, clays, mobilizers, all NATURAL products, no DRUG.

- avoid electrosmog as much as possible (it destroys a great amount of proteins = THE building blocks for all metabolism in your body, hormonal and enzymatic!).

- any DRUG you take with side effects (even aspirin) will, on the long run, cause some more burden for you to clean in the future (IF you can clean or fix the problem caused by the chemical long term damage).


If you aim to live until 40, whatever you do, drug, abx, killers without binders, is fine. It will buy you a fast solution and allow you to live some days, even weeks 'better', painless, probably...


If you aim to live to 90 or more, the only thing that can take you there is a clean body with a functioning immune system, able to develop fevers and fight chronic infections and inflammation, without drugs.

Drugs are just for short term use, when we find no other solution and we need a break from pain, sleep disorders, etc. Long term, they will certainly shorten your life span (OR life quality).

My whole family live and die on drugs. They live a miserable life, totally bound to medical doctor visits and prescription drugs, while still suffering from all symptoms. Even the children start on drugs too.

Drugs never really eliminate the symptoms. Symptoms are still present, on and off, or in low grade. Or it's like aspirin for headache: drugs are like sun glasses, so that you do not see sun light well. Sunlight is still there, but when you wear glasses, you deceive your brain saying it is not.

of course, when symptoms are so awful and we found no solution (like bad thrush), go for drugs. But you gotta try to find permanent solutions after the worst phase disappears, or, like most people, you'll be drug bound forever, still suffering from the disease.

anyway, I know that chronic candida is almost as bad as lyme.

The only difference, is that it kills you much slower than lyme.

It makes you suffer much less than lyme (milder symptoms).

It is less immuno suppressive than lyme. But IT IS immuno suppressive as most cancer patients die with horrible candida infections.

Just keep cleaning the mess, supporting your body, some physical exercise, good food, cleaning the gut, liver, whatever you do it will pay back. It takes time, but it does pay back, I feel.

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SickSam
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I just wanna cry. This is impossible. [Frown] It seems like I'm so much sicker than most people. Am I wrong? I can't even make my own food. How am I supposed to figure this out and get well if I can't even get my own food?

I skipped just a few days of diflucan and now the entire roof of my mouth is swollen. My immune system is shot.

Very sorry about this mini melt-down. [Frown]

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LaniMo
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Following this thread!
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S13
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Maybe you should focus on feeding your immune system. dr S's book "The lyme disease solution" has some great tips about nurturing the immune system. Things like beta 1,3 glucan (as supplement extract from Sacch. cerevisiae or from mushrooms like cordyceps and reishi) and aloe vera (active ingredient acemannan) nurture the macrophages and allow them to do their killing job much more effectively.
For natural killer (NK) cells beta carotene is the true champion! Get it from veggies or supplements. Normally juicing carrots would be the way to get beta carotene and strengthening the immune system (Gerson protocol anyone?), but that contains a lot of sugar so is probably a no-go for now. But spinach and kale also have lots of it, and they supply lots of other beneficial minerals and vitamins. Getting your nutrition up is very(!) important for NK cells to function properly. Glutathione and selenium sufficiency is a must!

Get on a very good diet, perhaps start with GAPS introduction, optionally leave out FODMAPS (somehow these really push my gut flora to further weaken my immune system, or cause a th2 shift) or other offending foods or foodgroups. Do focus on nutrient dense veggies like the spinach and kale i mentioned earlier. Leave out all sugars!

Get exercise if possible! That will also boost the immune system.

Dont try to kill all the infections now. Perhaps use some herbs or gentle anti candida agents to keep candida in check, but excessive killing will only deplete your immune system more.

Also watch out when trying to boost things like magnesium, selenium, glutathione, because detox reactions can again temporarily weaken the immune system and send you in a downward spiral. So go slow. The beta glucans and beta carotene could help more short term.

Things like chlorella and other binders can help with detoxification and provide minerals and vitamins, but again be aware of the mobilization process involved here. Some do better only with very high doses of chlorella, not low doses.

Finally, parasites do go hand in hand with candida as they too are a sign of a compromised immune system. And they like to further deplete your nutrients and push the immune system towards th2, the extracellular response. So candida and other lyme related infections can grow even further and wreak more havoc. So after you get some kind of strength back in your immune system, go after the parasites first.

I hope this helps a bit, and remember, never give up!

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Lymetoo
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My heart breaks for you, Sam. Hang in there!

[group hug]

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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SickSam
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Thanks so much friends. I'm gonna work on boosting my immune system definitely. I think I have to start with restoring my sleep somehow.

My doctor has told me to take 400 mg of Diflucan a day and see if that works. Huge dose.

Also, just want to mention, I've read a study that showed that minocycline worked synergistically with Diflucan in vitro to kill resistant candida. Well, I've tried it in vivo and it seems to work somewhat. Not a miracle for me, but it definitely seems to help the diflucan.

There's a study showing a similar synergy (by a different mechanism) between doxy and diflucan too. Hope this is useful info for someone!

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SickSam
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Also, my doctor wants me to try low dose naltrexone. I've read that some think it's immune-boosting? But others think it's immunosuppressive? I'm going to try it at some point, but I think I'll probably try to line out other immune supports first.
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Lymetoo
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I don't know much about LDN myself.

Be careful of taking so much Diflucan. You don't want to kill your liver.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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SickSam
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Definitely don't want to kill the liver. My last liver check was absolutely beautiful and I'm going to be keeping a very close eye on it, probably weekly. Thanks Lymetoo [Smile]
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cottonbrain
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Diflucan can cause lots of damage. I developed neuropathies while taking 100 mg tablets 4-5 days per week.

I can't say for sure that the Diflucan caused it - but be careful.

Sam, I'm so sorry you are so sick. Sadly, many of us have been in your shoes. Be sure to detox, and maybe back off your meds to give your body some recovery.

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faithful777
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On the last of the 14 day regimen of Oravig tomorrow. Thrush is greatly reduced but not totally gone.

My insurance will pay for me to do another 14 days. Hoping this will get rid of the last of it. Biggest side effect for me is being dizzy and having a headache.

--------------------
Faithful

Just sharing my experience, I am not a doctor.

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