Jordana
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Does anyone correlate anything about their State of Lyme with more, in fact even MORE spirochete looking things in their eyes?
I actually feel pretty good today considering my baseline state of awful. But I woke up with some kind of party in my eyes. Lots of long, long thingies and clumps of thingies and even what looks like a biolfilm thingy.
No, no flashies, no blurries, just the bugs.
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LisaK
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you mean actual things you had to wipe away???!!!!
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me
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Jordana, Are you talking about long mucousy like strings and globs?
I have a horrible time with that, and it's worse in one eye than in another. Some days I pull the junk outta my eyes tons of times. It's disgusting, uncomfortable and bothersome.
I'm curious if this is common with Lyme and/or coinfections?
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Jordana
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No no -- inside -- floaters.
But the mucous glob thing I got when I started zithromax. Junk just leaks out of my eyes for a couple of days for no reason.
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Keebler
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- Floaters are not bugs nor spirochetes, although they can certainly creep anyone out.
Usually, it's "debris" - antioxidants usually help clear them, although be sure to look over all the detail here:
Book & website: THE EYE CARE REVOLUTION - by Robert Abel, Jr. M.D. (Ophthalmologist) -
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Jordana
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You know Keebler, I used to believe that also. Now I don't. I think they hang out at the back of the vitreous and are magnified by the optic nerve, which is why we can see them but eye doctors can't.
Either that or they're nematodes, microfilaria. But they are some kind of animal, living or dead.
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Keebler
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- Floaters are absolutely not spirochetes, nor are they "some kind of animal, living or dead" -
they are "trash" - damaged or old expired tissue - floating around in the gel. The articles explain it very well. They can indicated a high toxicity in the body.
Floaters usually clear very well for me when matched with a good antioxidant such as mangosteen.
You posted just seven minutes after I posted the educational links. They could not have been read in seven minutes. Give the doctors a chance to explain it. They actually do a very good job. And there are other factual articles to find as well. -
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Jordana
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I read a lot of articles about this in the beginning, to the ends of the internet. Even so, I think floaters are organisms. It doesn't make sense that they showed up the minute I got sick and sort of wax and wane based on how sick I am.
I know what current science is. But if a floater is supposed to be a small crack in the vitreous gel I don't see why it can't also be a shadow image of a microscopic parasite.
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Catgirl
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I'm with you Jordana. I've treated parasites extensively and my floaters are almost nil. I do see them around the full moon too.
IMO the bugs love the eyes. Some people drink mangosteen juice for their floaters. It's possible that they run from the eyes to the gut.
Sorry Keebler, I mean no disrespect. I don't have faith that science has figured this one out yet.
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Jordana
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No dis to Keebler either. Actually I wish all that information about floaters was right; it's creepy to see that every day. I wish it was just a wrinkle in my eye vitreous. Just don't think so.
Catgirl I'm thinking more and more about parasites. I was thinking since art also treats those organisms my utter physical flipouts on art might be more than babesia.
I've got LLMD cued up to prescribe People Ivermectin as soon as I get up and running on clarithromycin.
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bluelyme
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Yes i see them in the reflection of my retina..if you look at blue sky especially..i relate nightvision blurrys to how i am doing ..maybe its nerves or bugs eating em ..i get the eye boogies too...
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Tincup
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Santa brought me a rocking horse all the way from the north pole.
posted
I drink Stephania Tetrandra homeopathic drops in a little water and it clears the floaters. In Buhner's 2005 book, "Healing Lyme," there's a section starting on page 145 on Bell's Palsy and Occularborreliosis.
He states, "In general, S. Cepharantha may be slightly better for neural inflammation and S. Tetrandra for ocular problems in the treatment of Lyme Borreliosis."
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LisaK
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if they were spirochetes how could our eyes possibly see them in that size? wouldnt they be impossible with our naked eye to see that clearly?
my floaters have definite shapes to them. I don't think if I could see a microscopic bug with my eye it would appear that detailed. but I could be wrong.
and I don't think floaters move unless you move your eye- that is what makes them appear to be moving I always observed. but then again, that could just be my floaters again.
HOWEVER.... when I googled "has anyone actually pulled a floater out of their eye to see a bug" I got this page ...
I hope nothing ever comes crawling out of MY nose!
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posted
I lean more towards floaters being parasites as well. I've had them as long as I can remember.
At one point they had nearly completely cleared, this coincided with a time period of feeling pretty good. I didn't keep up with parasite tx and my parasite sx came back fiercely, followed by flaring of Lyme and co's.
Using the violet ray around the eyes clears floaters near instantly, and albendazole usually clears them out pretty good too.
I have the strings pretty bad too, they are worse than ever right now. I never had strings come out of my eyes until my untreated sx got close to their worst a few years ago. Almost any time of day it's a given that I can massage my eyes just a little and get a lot of strings to come out.
tulips thanks for the info on stephania. I've been sitting on some for a little while, perhaps now's a good time to give it a try.
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Jordana
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I feel like this is one of those things that gets batted around on the internet endlessly. People -- Lyme people -- keep coming along and claiming that they see spirochetes and they never did before. Floaters are a symptom of Lyme.
Then someone else will come along and say no, they're microscopic, you can't see anything that's microscopic with your eyes.
Except you're not looking at them from the front. You're looking at them through the shadow of the back of your eye. Eye docs can't see them, because they're looking through a slit lamp through their own eyes -- THEY can't see anything microscopic.
Since medicine does not believe in Lyme I doubt medicine has tried to look for Lyme or microfilaria in the eye, just like medicine doesn't think Lyme can colonize the bladder or the intestines.
These things I'm seeing are very long and thin, sometimes segmented, sometimes with little balled up things at the end or in the middle, sometimes looking like a mess of threads.
I just think eventually someone will discover that there are floaters, and there are spirochetes. OR parasites. But something that is not an eye wrinkle.
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Keebler
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- Bunnies or swans can be "seen" in cloud shapes. If the sky darkens and winds stir, they may appear to "turn" into monsters and vultures.
Yet, declaring them such does not make it true. -
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Jordana
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Symptoms can be felt after the bite of an infected tick for years and decades afterwards, but this does not necessarily mean that the symptoms are due to infection.
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LisaK
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quote:Originally posted by Jordana: These things I'm seeing are very long and thin, sometimes segmented, sometimes with little balled up things at the end or in the middle, sometimes looking like a mess of threads.
Jordana, did you open that link I posted above? that person says this same thing!
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Phoiph
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Tincup
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Last night while reading this post I heard a "bing" from an incoming email. You won't believe this- I didn't and it was so weird it made me laugh- but while reading this post a Lyme literate ophthalmologist contacted me about a different topic.
In my response I mentioned it was funny how their email came in just as I was reading about floaters being mistaken for spirochetes- and was trying to figure out how to respond.
I asked if they had any info I could share on the topic or any words of comfort for patients...
Surprisingly, and kindly, they responded. This is what they said. ................................................
"Yes you are correct the floaters are not spirochetes. Too small for patients to actually see them.
The vitreous gel is where floaters happen. At birth it is thick and gelatinous. Over time it liquifies ...syneresis...by the time we are older it has portions that have liquified and portions that are gel and more solid.
UV exposure and lifestyle ie smoking and systemic diseases have varying effects on this process.
I believe that with Lyme patients because of ROS and systemic inflammation, cytokines etc this process begins prematurely and at an accelerated rate.
I also theorize that certain coinfections seem to cause floaters as well as other ocular manifestations.
It is interesting to note that MMP9 is elevated in mycotoxin illness and in tear films in dry eye patients.
Many Lyme patients have dry eyes and probably elevated inflammatory markers in their tear film."
Tincup
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I am also sharing another comment they made- not about the spirochete/floater topic- but something interesting you may want to know.
"I usually see Bartonella as the cause of the most severe eye issues. Make sure to take lutein and zeaxanthin and fish oil to further protect your eyes."
Since I had no clue what the zeaxanthin was and knew little about lutein, I looked it up. Info here...
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Jordana
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I think I saw that before when I was looking this up before. It does look like that but it's a lot of bugs, and I don't have near that many.
It's candida???
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me
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That's what it says. I thought it looked similar to the drawing Phoiph posted.
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bluelyme
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So do we know if vitrious floaters are organisms of borrielia or bartonella, candida or tissue off parts of the eye...?
No opthamologist is going to test it ..so mangosteen?lutien and the like
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Phoiph
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Also, under certain lighting conditions, it may be possible to see your white blood cells circulating through capillaries (Scheerer's Phenomenon).
Spirochetes have been isolated from vitreous, but they are too small to be seen by the host.
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Phoiph
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Vitreous floaters are not organisms or fungi, they are shadows of stringy vitreous matter and/or fragments of protein, connective tissue, dead cells, etc.
Because they float and drift freely in the vitreous of the eye, they are moving and may appear "alive".
I have a background in visual impairments so have an interest in this...
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Jordana
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. Well that solves that. Can't argue with video, that's exactly what I see.
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LisaK
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great info TINCUP. I am going to start taking the carotenoids for my dry eyes
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ukcarry
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Yes, my massive floaters do resemble pathogens, but arrived at the same times as my vitreous detachments.
By the way, if anyone gets sudden floaters and possibly flashes, you need to get it checked out straightaway, in case the cause is retinal detachment rather than vitreous detachment.
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Tincup
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Keebler
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- Lisa,
A lot of Rx cause dry eye - especially sleep and mood pharmaceuticals - and of course antihistamines. So be sure to check for that as a side effect and if you might be taking some of those and they are not essential, there may be a better way to substitute the Rx.
Good start though with antioxidants. Sea Buckthorn Oil also good for eyes to relive dry eyes. -
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Keebler
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- This was posted above, just want to be sure it's seen:
When Are Eye Floaters and Flashes a Medical Emergency? [Scroll down] -
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LisaK
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keebler, yes about rx. I am not on anything for the last several months. actually about a year. time flies
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My husband ended up with a lot of floaters and at one point we thought they were Lyme related. After seeing a retina specialist, it was determined that it was vitreos detachment in the back of his eyes. Over time it has detached completely.
Surgery removes these floaters if all vitreous matter is detached. His floaters are gone.
Can spirochetes be part of the issue? That is the question to answer. My LLMD thinks that it is possible.
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Keebler
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- faithful,
Some of these things, whether the "emergency right this very minute" vitreous detachment - which only an eye doctor can confirm
or common floaters
can be due to normal body aging, injury, nutrient deficiencies, exposure to toxins (exhaust, living near a highway, pollution, etc.)
Yes, though lyme - and really any infection & inflammation that often goes with it - can be part of the problem when body tissue is attacked and damaged . . . with the subsequent breakdown of such tissue. Oxidation is major issue in that regard, too, for various reasons.
Inflammation can create a blockade, too, so that waste toxins can't get out and nutrients can't get in.
Where there is infection, important to treat it and also have good antioxidants & key lipid nutrients on board, some are more important to eye health than others, such as bilberry and others that are usually very dark / bright in color.
A diet too low in dark fruits can also put one at risk of eye damage. IMO, while certain supplements help, real whole fruits are essential to eye health. Dark berries and cherries have an advantage in usually being very low on the glycemic index. And dark fruits can work for those battling candida if other measures are taken.
The EYE BOOK link above explains this best. -
[ 07-22-2016, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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lpkayak
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Jordana and others who describe seeing bugs
I have had this for many yrs. I havent ralked about ut because i know what eye docs say
But i know its real. Sometimes they are large sometimes tiny. Sometimes very wig : ly. Sometimes not moving. To me dead. Ofren i can relate dead ones to being on tx. Much worse full moin. I believe some sort og nah igication or reglection g oing on
This has gone on a ling time. One yr opygalmologust put me on 100mg doxy a day. Bball never saw them when on doxy
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lpkayak
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Sorry about the typos new phone too sensitive my fingers keep jumping
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Catgirl
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So, I take parasite meds and herbs and they have made my floaters go down to almost zero. These are really strong meds that I take and some of them can cause inflammation.
So how is it the floaters are way better when I take the meds, even if the med causes inflammation? It's because they are bugs. The meds that cross the BBB target the bugs.
These bugs are more active before full moons. That's what bugs do. I have even felt worms moving in my eyes. No, it was not hair under my eyes. My guess it was spirochetes. It felt like they were moving through my eyeballs from one side to the other.
I watched a webinar once where the lyme doc said that yes, spirochetes can go in the eyes and they can make a person blind. Some of you may have vitreous matter, but mine are bugs.
I guess it's just one of those things, kinda like lyme, until one personally experiences it, takes the meds, knows they go away after taking them, then one will not know for sure. I also don't think these meds target vitreous matter.
Best wishes!
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posted
In "Healing Lyme" Stephen Buhner says that the Lyme spirochettes colonize highly viscous mediums such as the collagenous tissues around the knees or the aqueous humor of the eye. So - spirochettes do colonize the eyes. Many people drink Mangosteen juice or Stephania Tetrandra drops in water to kill spirochettes in the eye.
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And I want to add that I, also have seen spirochette-looking things in my eyes - though not lately since I've increased the amount of herbs that I'm taking, but they were stationary - not moving and also, since spirochettes are microscopic, I think that they couldn't have been spirochettes - or could they?
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Tincup
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Keebler
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- There is absolutely no point in posting links to educational articles if no one bothers to read them. Thanks for the wake-up call to just stop wasting time in this manner.
This is not about opinion or what it seems like, it's about facts. Many of the links explain the physical science of floaters.
Yet, it seems that the sharing of personal experiences of how creepy these things seemingly from "inner space" - well, that creepiness seems to get distorted into seeing them as what they are not.
So, please share all about how creepy and odd this can be. But, please, take a look at the detail from the eye specialists, too.
In the mornings when you rinse your mouth, often there will be bits of old tissue that comes out when the water is spit into the sink. One might think of floaters a bit like that old discarded tissue but it just can't be spit out.
And, for those with mouth tissue that is hampered by disease, there will be more of this "spent" debris tissue to spit out. The integrity of the mouth tissue may not be as healthy as it should be. So, moving to the eyes.
Yes, disease / infection (of various kinds and, yes, all kinds of those all too small to see) can contribute to the break down of eye tissue (just like it can with other body tissue)
but floaters are not infections or parasites, themselves. The infections / spirochetes / even some parasites can be the reason for the eye tissue breakdown, though.
Floaters are the break-down of vitreous eye tissue (or a red flag for emergency trip to eye doctor - see relevant links above).
That some supplements help reduce floaters is due to their antioxidant properties (to gobble up the debris) and due to their nutrient supply to help nourish & strengthen the tissue of the eyes
&/or due to their help in infection or inflammation management.
All that is in the EYE BOOK & other links.
Tincup specifically spoke with a LL eye doctor recently and conveyed the facts back to us in links above.
Phoiph took the time and trouble to also post excellent detail.
Just because IDSA connected doctors cannot be trusted to know about lyme, etc. that does not mean that all doctors' work is junk. Really.
The educational / informational links are here to help explain - and save time form wondering to getting the facts and then moving to doing what helps.
About age ten and off to summer camp, one night coming into the tent to go to sleep, we saw under a blanket, a big bump about the size of small loaf of bread.
My tent mate and I were scared and kept our distance for quite some time. It did not move and neither did we. We spent too long being scared and speculating about what it could be . . . and then we just got too tired and finally mustered the courage to prepare and face the fact of the matter.
We armed ourselves with some kind of box to cover it as we lifted the blanket to find . . . an oversized hairbrush (that another camper had placed as a joke).
Facts can be less creepy than what we might conjure in our minds. -
[ 07-23-2016, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Catgirl
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I miss Gael. She could tell you some interesting stuff!
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Phoiph
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Just to reiterate a point from my previous posts...
Spirochetes HAVE been isolated from vitreous, but they are TOO SMALL to be seen by the host. This is a fact based in science. The magnification power of the eye is simply not strong enough.
The floaters that can be seen (as in the drawing and video above) are gigantic in relation to a spirochete.
Again, this is not to say spirochetes don't exist in the vitreous; they can, but they are not what is seen.
Also, in response to the comment that meds don't circulate through vitreous matter...
One of the reasons I had to discontinue Mepron, is because it turned my vision bright yellow. That meant that it had stained my vitreous. This was reported to the manufacturer and added to their side effect warning list.
Vitreous fluid, like all body fluids, is circulated and eventually exchanged by the body. Floaters tend to stay within the globe of the eye, but they can be broken down and absorbed over time. The number of floaters may reduce as a person's system becomes healthier, and less material is being shed.
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. Well that solves that. Can't argue with video, that's exactly what I see.
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