posted
oh an MERRY CHRISTMAS to all you sufferers out there! Let's celebrate the hope that Jesus brings!!!
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
ukcarry
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18147
posted
Some people with CFS/ME and therefore Lyme may not respond well to nitric oxide,
Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
SO it also sounds like Babesia (I checked) and malaria deplete naturally occurring arginine...
Which causes all this blood aggregation. Also sounds like it causes a leaky gut! Who knows what lyme does??? !!!! Wow!
No wonder, a lot of people don't get better on just antibiotics. All these infections really screw up the body systems...
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's it, I'm trying l-arginine! I've had some sitting around for a few months now. I've read it reverses heart failure too. My doc says it does work similar to hyperbaric oxygen.
On your air hunger, I wonder if a different infection is causing it since you're on so much anti-babs stuff. I know Brucella can cause air hunger too.
Merry Christmas!!!
Posts: 748 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2015
| IP: Logged |
And the kicker! Anyone want to stay young... (I am laughing!) That should make anyone try this.
The only downside that concerns me, is that it sounds like you can get too much at some point. Nobody seems to no where that is.
AND it also can activate dormant viruses, such as herpes and so on. DO NOT TAKE this if you have an active viral infection.
The only one I have sticking in me is Epstein Barr. I have no idea if it could reactivate this or not.
I have been on a higher dose of arginine for a few days now. So far the only thing I noticed is a very mild headache, which they say can occur from you blood vessels expanding...
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just a thought. For expanding blood vessels you might be able to try Horse Chestnut. It works for spider veins and varicose veins.
Posts: 653 | From Northern Virginia | Registered: Oct 2014
| IP: Logged |
Oh dear... what happens when you take amino acids?
I will be sure and let you know what happens!
Today my head feels amazingly well, (besides a sliiiiight headache) But I have ups and downs sometimes...
Wonderful Christmas gift to have a head that doesn't feel so much like_________. (put something hideous in that blank!
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
Ha! Arginine helps protect pigs from moldy food! hmmm I Def. had mold exposure at one point.
RealTime Labs showed up the dreaded mycotoxins...
I even did the Brewer Protocol faithfully for close a year... (shudder) I don't ever want to put anything else up my nose AGAIN!
(didn't help me feel better at ALL!) Maybe the arginine will help with the lingering fungi?
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
[ 12-26-2016, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: tulips ]
Posts: 653 | From Northern Virginia | Registered: Oct 2014
| IP: Logged |
ukcarry
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18147
posted
Foxyloxy, i mentioned the caution because Dr Marting Pall has or had a theory that CFs /ME patients had excessive nitric oxide and a faulty nitric oxide cycle. I believe that what research there is has shown contradictory or inconclusive results. See the discussion in this link:
I don't know much about it, but did try to increase nitric oxide levels a few years ago by following a noni juice protocol, but stopped because I felt worse on it......that doesn't prove that increased nitric oxide was responsible, of course.
Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
thanks ukcarry! The article was interesting
I have a mom with M.S. and a Dad with Parkinsons so I do feel a little leery about the whole Nitric Oxide idea.
The only thing that comforts me is that both malaria and babesia deplete NO and this allows the infection to flourish.
Also, being low on NO is not a good thing... just muttering out loud!
So sorry, the Noni made you feel worse!! Have you ever tried l arginine and Citrulline together? Do you have a babesia infection?
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
ukcarry
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18147
posted
I was diagnosed with and treated for babesia, but have no clear idea as to whether I still have it. The biomagnetic paur practitioner I am seeing says that I definitely do have it, three varieties of it in fact!
No, I have not, knowingly anyway, supplemented withl arginine or citrulline, partly because in the Genova Diagnostices ONE urine test to assess nutritional status, they were both elevated, although there could be several reasons for that, I know.
Sorry to hear about your parents' illnesses.
[ 12-27-2016, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: ukcarry ]
Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
This has only been out for two years! I wonder if this is the reason some respond to antibiotics and some don't? Maybe it depends on the level of nitric oxide people have and their endothelial function?
This is very ignorant hypothesis here!!
I need Marnie on here! Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, my headache pretty much subsided. I had a headache from arginine for about six days.
SO far, I seem to be having a flare in response to the arginine if anything!
I definitely have had an increase of air hunger.
I am around 4,500 mg daily and am working up to six. I will let you know what happens! Something definitely is up.
How are you doing on it Sick Sam?
I am not as SUPER sleepy! Just sleepy now!
A downside is that I think it is dropping my blood pressure, which is already dysfunctional. But so far it is quite livable. I just hope it doesn't drop any farther.
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
Catgirl
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 31149
AND it also can activate dormant viruses, such as herpes and so on. DO NOT TAKE this if you have an active viral infection.
Bummer.
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Arginine...
The cyclic-di-GMP signaling pathway in the Lyme disease spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi
Recently c-di-GMP has been found in eukarotic systems acting not only in immune response, but as an inhibitor of the pacemaker I(f) current in the heart.
As with uvrB mutants of other bacteria, the H. pylori uvrB mutant showed a greatly increased sensitivity to the DNA-damaging agents methylmethane sulfonate
The GADD45 gene has been shown to be induced by a variety of genotoxic agents, e.g. methylmethane sulfonate, UV radiation, hydroxyurea, and ionizing radiation.
ATRA and GADD45A (= GADD45)
Gene array analysis showed that
retinoic acid induces the expression of GADD45A, a known cell growth suppressor.
posted
Thanks for that Marnie... I guess! I did look at the article and others and it does appear that arginine/NO is a player of sorts in creating biofilm.
However, it is all very confusing and there appears to be contradictions in different studies. I don't think anyone knows clearly WHAT is going on.
I certainly don't want to be creating more biofilm. on the other hand, Neither to I want to be in a Nitric oxide depleted state... (which is what babesia does)
It is a bit spooky to know that arginine and Nitric Oxide are such a HUGE HUGE HUGE player in bacteria and protozoan...
Do you have any personal opinion on this Marnie?
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
I tend to keep arginine low on purpose and prefer a Lysine dominant diet. I eat a lot of dairy, which is naturally much higher in Lysine. I dont do well when I eat high arginine foods such as beans, nuts, etc. Thats just me though
Posts: 173 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
My doc is experimenting with arginine right now. Out of more than 200 patients who have tried it, he's had somewhere around an 80 to 85% positive response so far. Figured I'd throw that out there. I haven't tried it myself yet but plan to eventually.
Posts: 748 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah Lyme and Cos. I just found my paper from him, it's about 80% positive response so far. Mostly has helped patients with fatigue and brain issues (fog, anxiety, etc). Sometimes sleep too. He's found that twice a day is much more effective than once a day.
Posts: 748 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2015
| IP: Logged |
Do you know how much he is giving? So far I'm taking 3 g citrulline and 3 gram of arginine at three different times a day.
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
No problem (: Pretty sure the dose is 5 grams twice a day. He uses ProArgi 9+ and one packet is 5 grams. He also uses Arginine Infusion.
Posts: 748 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
whoaaaa! hold it! That's a LOT! Thanks again Sam!
uhhh, I think I will wait and talk to my Dr. before taking that amount! The six grams I am taking seem to be doing my head in as it is.
I am assuming this is Babesia die off, as one of the symptoms that worsened is air hunger.
I also think I am getting more oxygen from the mild hyperbaric from the vasodilation effect, so I am probably getting a double whammy. Today I felt dreadful...
last time, I asked my dr. about l arginine, he had never even heard of it. But he did admit that nitric oxide does many different things and seemed interested.
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah that seemed like a lot to me too, but that's what the box even says to take on the instructions label. You really probably are getting a double whammy with the hbot too! When I try it I'll start much lower too.
Posts: 748 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Since there seems to be so much unknown on this, I think we should really encourage people to report their results here, so we can base a decision on subjective improvement rather than science, since the science doesn't seem clear.
So, for those using it, please keep reporting!
Posts: 641 | From Nevada | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged |
This is a very good idea. I decided that if it worsened me with any new symptoms, I would drop this therapy like a hotcake! Because it is a bit scary.
But so far, I have had quite the contrary experience. I say SO FAR. I am not excited YET!
BUT! as of now, I have had about five or six days in a row that were unusually better.
I am not as sound sensitive. My nerves feel better. My head still feels weird off and on, but I can tolerate it better.
Def, hasn't cured me yet, but If I could keep this improvement (BIG IF HERE) it would seem almost miraculous, because nothing has helped my head for six loooooooooooooong awful years!
Not even mild hyperbaric. (not much anyway)
Oh I so hope it keeps the seizure like sensations away too! So far it seems better, though I still jerk like crazy when going down for a nap.
Oh, and I wanted to report that my blood pressure seems to have stabilized. I'm not as lightheaded as when I first began therapy, so I think my body must have adjusted!
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sound sensitive and weird jerking... I have these too... very recent symptoms for me after a foot puncture wound.
Posts: 641 | From Nevada | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
My Dr. is very interested in this, and said he is going to study into it. I will be curious to see what he thinks.
From the little he did look into it, he said he didn't think it would hurt anything. He was also interested especially when he heard about the other Dr. using it with 200 of his patients and getting an 80% response rate.
He doesn't think its a cure. (pretty obvious, I don't either) but thinks it is totally worth a shot with a lot of science behind it.
I still have increased air hunger. But, on the flip side, my hair is coming back in by the droves. (however, a few months ago I started a mild thyroid dose.)BUT I noticed the difference after a month on arginine.
My head feels more tolerable at times and seems like I am not quite as anxious and sound intolerant. Again... too soon to tell...
OH!!!! one BIGGIE... is that the seizure like sensations before falling asleep are still GONE!!! IT is TOTALLY worth it for THAT!!! they are scary!!! (dunno if it will keep away or not?)
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've started the arginine at 5 grams once a day. Wow! I like the way this stuff makes me feel. It is definitely producing nitric oxide and expanding my blood vessels.
Whatever product you use needs to have l-citrulline in it too. Glad I trusted my doc on this one and finally tried it.
Posts: 748 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Almost forgot, I had an echo after starting it and it increased my heart's ejection fraction from 58% to 74%. Very impressive!!
Posts: 748 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Has anyone noticed a sore throat with arginine? I hope this isn't kicking up viral stuff ....
Posts: 641 | From Nevada | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged |
Catgirl
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 31149
posted
I can't take it, it's food for PR (protomyxzoa rheumatica). If anyone feels bad, PR might be a possibility for you.
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wish I could continue on it because I feel super human on this stuff. Been getting up early and running 2-3 miles in the morning on it. Normally I don't feel like exercising much at all, let alone in the 7am hour!
Posts: 641 | From Nevada | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged |
Catgirl
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 31149
posted
Maybe you're just catching a virus or something (it is virus season)? You could always go off then try again. You can also try taking some lysine if you think a virus is surfacing.
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
| IP: Logged |
Catgirl
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 31149
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, some ppl have said they feel increase of EBV symptoms on arginine. They say supplementing lysine along with it fixes that.
I had an increase in viral symptoms initially too (so much so that I initially stopped taking it), but I've been rifing EBV and the viral symptoms seem much less now. This stuff is too good to give up.
My doc says to take a dose at bedtime because it increases HGH (pretty sure it was HGH), and HGH normally increases during sleep anyway. Arginine has definitely helped me relax a lot. I feel a whole lot more peaceful on it.
Posts: 748 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2015
| IP: Logged |
GLAD l arginine is helping you!!! I have Epstein Barr virus too but haven't seen any worsening on that end. I do take Monolaurin though which is antiviral.
dan67 I don't think it would give you a sore throat. If anything, it boosts your immune system to help fight one. The research I did says some people say they don't catch colds as quickly.
I read too that you don't want to take lysine along with arginine. The two cancel each other out... at least if you want nitric oxide benefits... unless of course you have an Epstein barr reactivation and need to get on top of it. I would try another natural anti-viral like oil of oregano or monolaurin...
As for the Protomyxzoa scare... that may be true, or it may not be. I heard from someone who was a patient of Dr. Stephen Fry, the one who discovered FL953 that he didn't think arginine fed it after all... He is quite unsure.
I think Catgirl, has good advice. As long as it isn't making you worse... give it a shot!
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
L-arginine has helped my sensitive hearing tremendously... although, I have been taking magnesium more too.
I am still at seven grams... my air hunger seems to be much better in the last week or so... I suffered pretty badly from that, but it does appear to be getting better...
I seem more brain stable, (exploding head is better for now, and seizure like sensations MUCH improved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! etc.) but it hasn't helped all the brain fog entirely... OR
MY WORST SYMPTOM...Sickening, sensitive... NERVE SENSATIONS in my head... UGH!!! drives me bonkers!
So people, give it a try, esp. if you have babesia!
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
DGL helped me tremendously with air hunger and heart palpitations, just keep a watch on your potassium levels. Also, two days of being on NB Protocol put a stop to both issues (I'm now on day #8).
Hope that helps, J
Posts: 289 | From Montreal, Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
| IP: Logged |
I am still have no seizure like activity upon lying down. No weird feelings like I am dying.. and no head crashes.
Arginine can help neurotransmitors, and I wonder if that's why it stabilized my odd brain symptoms?
I quite the mild hyperbaric, and seemed to improve even more!
My sickening head problem I have had for six years is even better!
I still take seven grams of l-arginine along with three grams of turmeric, clindamycin, mepron, azithromycin, coartem, and cryptolepis!
I feel like I am winning for now!!! I am SO excited and HOPE, HOPE it continues to HOLD! pleeeeeease?
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yay! Yes amino acids play a big role above everything else, alongside minerals and lipids as the building blocks of what we are. Here's a small aminos cheat sheet:
Aspartic Acid Makes aspartate; found in peanuts, potatoes, eggs & grains.
Choline Makes acetylcholine; found in eggs, liver & soybeans.
Glutamic Acid Makes glutamate; found in flour & potatoes.
Phenylalanine Makes dopamine; found in beets, soybeans, almonds, eggs, meat & grains.
Tryptophan Makes serotonin; found in eggs, meat, skim milk, bananas, yogurt, milk & cheese.
Tyrosine Makes norepinephrine; found in milk, meat, fish & legumes.
posted
I am sorry, Troy, I can't really remember. I am thinking it was three grams in the a.m. and three in the eve... making a total of six.
I feel though that I may have started too fast, as I had a headache for a good week till my body adjusted.
I think I would start with two and add on a pill till you got up to seven to ten grams...OH and make sure some of it is Citrulline!!!!
I have stayed at seven with good results, but still think about going up to ten.
I will say, my air hunger worsened and still is hanging around. My Dr. doesn't know why this would be.
It IS better by times but still worse than before the arginine I would say. Don't know If it is die-off or provoking something.
Stephen Buhner in his book says arginine is so powerfully against babesia, that it alone can eradicate the infection in studies!!
Not sure I believe this, but I do think it is powerful against it and the effects of bartonella.
Best wishes Johnny_broadway! Keep us posted!
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
dbpei
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 33574
posted
I have been reading this thread with great interest because I would give anything to have my head feel normal again. I recently read an article that explained how for some, L-arginine might make things worse.
This article is worth reading and discussing with your doctor.
posted
Thanks dbpei!! In my research I did stumble across that article.
I don't know why he says this though... from what my feeble brain understands, maybe the protein from certain foods can aggravate hyperammonemia, but NOT l arginine.
(btw, I would not recommend his diet! at least NOT long term. that sounds very unhealthy. Protein is VERY important!)
The articles I read including Wikipedia say that they give intravenous l-arginine to people with hyperammonemia!
I don't think my Dr. will know the answer, but I can try asking him. He doesn't know much about it and seems too busy to be VERY interested. (although he keeps pretending like he is!)
The best I can find on the subject is in Stephen Buner's book Natural Treatments for Lyme Coinfections.
I would suggest you get that book If you are interested in trying it and read the section about Nitric Oxide and its major role in Malaria and Babesia and Bartonella.
I don't think it is very hard to understand... and has helped me a LOT in knowing what to take for Babesia.
As I said before, I feel like I may be finally getting more on the winning side and it did seem to start with the L Arginine.
I am afraid If I get better I will be one of those people that won't be able to say what made them get better. It is either:
A. The L arginine which helped my seizure like night thingies.. (beyond awful)I did this first..
B. Quitting mild hyperbaric (I did this next, not quick improvement)
C. Adding in the Coartem on top of my other antimalarials (I had done Coartem before with no improvement just not in tandem with my other meds) Very suspicious this is the straw breaking the proverbial camel's back)
D. Turmeric taken a week after Coartem. (also suspicious this is helping the most too. Turmeric and Artimesinin together are pretty powerful against malaria)
Best wishes my dear head friend! I know how it feels! awful!
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
dbpei
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 33574
posted
Thank you so much for all of this great info, foxyloxy. I am so happy for you that you are finally seeing some improvement!
I could never do that diet either. I eat so many of the things that are forbidden on it. I don't know how I would survive!
I have Buhner's book Healing Lyme Disease Coinfections. I think it must be same one? I will definitely look for section on nitric oxide and the part it plays... HOping my brain can absorb all of this.
All the best and please continue to keep us posted! Posts: 2386 | From New England | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
So I took ~3g of L-arginine (with citrulline) last night before going to bed.
My first impression is... It totally knocked me down and out. I'm finding it hard to get out of bed this morning and my joints and muscles really hurt.
I'm not sure exactly why this is. Maybe I took too much, or maybe something else is going on. Time for more research...
Posts: 30 | From Las Vegas | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, you may have taken too much. Maybe start with one gram? I started off with three grams too, and I am sure this is too much. (.I.E. THE HEADACHE.)
Sorry about that! The only increase I felt was a headache for a few weeks... oh and air hunger, that I still have. I still don't know what to think about that one! :/
Maybe you are being hit with a bit of die off from the babesia dying from the nitric oxide? I do know my knees ached more on it for a while too.
Some people have bad reactions when they mess with babesia.
I wouldn't give up yet, but of course you know your body. If it doesn't help in a month, I would quit it.
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
I haven't updated here in a while, figured I wouldn't share that I had to stop arginine. It made whatever infection I have worse. ):
I'm definitely going to try it again one day, my body really did love the arginine, but so did the infection. Maybe mycoplasma or protomyxzoa...
Posts: 748 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2015
| IP: Logged |
I am very curious. What symptoms got worse for you? I would say my air hunger worsened...(and still is) This bothers me a bit, as I do hope I am hindering my infection not helping it!
So If you could say what you thought worsened, it may be helpful to me and others trying it.
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Initially, it worsened my sinusitis and blurred vision. It also worsened my thrush, but I'm hoping it wasn't the actual arginine that did that. Maybe it was one of the other ingredients in the ProArgi.
Then, it eventually worsened my fatigue and such, even though it initially helped my fatigue quite a bit. I just started feeling more toxic on it. I'm absolutely going to try again one day though, those few days it helped were fabulous!
Posts: 748 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah,the ProArgi has sugar in it...It also other things in it? Wow! quite a few other things.
If you try it again I would get Jarrow brand 1,000 mg caps and Jarrow (or NOW brand) 1,000 mg Citrulline and pop some of those big cruisers! It may give you clearer picture without all those other ingredients plus all that sweetener... (although they do use some stevia, good for them!)
Best wishes! Hang in there. I hope the Bicillin helps you. I have heard it can be quite powerful.
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm kinda using this as my health journal... Maybe it can be helpful to others.
I am still on 7 grams of Arginine/Citrulline, Taurine, l-theanine, 3 grams of Turmeric, Art,crypto, Coartem, Mepron, Azithromycin, Vinpocetine, Monolaurin. Recently added in Dan shen and Japanese knotweed, Tudca and Daraprim.
The Daraprim seems to be helping a bit. I will stay on it for a bit, but it depletes folic acid. I am takine Jarrow mthfr folate... 800mcg
I also am exploring the whole mthfr thing. I took Jigsaw's magnesium with methylated b vitamins and whoa! Lo and behold they gave me energy.
I am compound heterogeneous and I have been trying to load up on my b vitamins... they effect my sleep, so I am going slow. At first I thought I felt great on them. Now I seem to be in a head slump again... Maybe I am overdoing it.
I am weaning myself off Gabapentin. I feel my memory is being affected by it. I am down to 300 mg daily.
The gains I have made seem to be sticking! But my progress is slow and I feel a bit lately like I have plateaued. Time will tell!
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[woohoo]](graemlins/woohoo.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
drives me bonkers!
Printer-friendly view of this topic