posted
I just read that the Western blot will test for antibodies to Lyme bacteria, but that a positive Western blot does not indicate active infection. This LLMD says that antibodies can be made even after active infection has been and gone.
If that's true, how do we know if symptoms correlate to an actual infectious process or damage done from past infection that is no longer active?
-------------------- Hypopituitary syndrome and secondary adrenal insufficiency Posts: 8 | From South Bend IN USA | Registered: Jun 2013
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TF
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True. A positive Western Blot indicates EXPOSURE to lyme only.
"When reactive, serologies indicate exposure only and do not directly indicate whether the spirochete is now currently present." (p. 7)
When Burrascano was learning about lyme, he had his friend Dr. MacDonald, a pathologist, look at the patient's blood under a high-powered microscope to see if he could see any lyme in the blood.
MacDonald would tell Burrascano if he still saw spirochetes or not. So, through this process, Burrascano was able to prove that if the patient was still sick, there were still live lyme bacteria present in the blood.
When the patient reported that symptoms were gone, MacDonald would no longer find lyme in the blood.
Notice, Burrascano did NOT use Western Blots to tell if the patient still had lyme.
Some lyme patients have gotten their own microscopes for this reason. Look at the very long Microscopy thread and you can read their conversations.
Do you know of ANY disease that still causes symptoms even after it is gone?
With disease, doctors generally treat until the patient is symptom-free and then they treat a little longer to be sure. That is why you are always told to finish your antibiotic prescription even if you feel well.
So, as a rule, diseases cause symptoms as long as there is disease; no more disease, no more symtoms.
I got rid of lyme 12 years ago now. But, about 6 years ago an ENT (yes, ENT) decided to test me for lyme since he couldn't get me well.
Lo and behold, I still tested positive for lyme antibodies on the Western Blot. Then, I had to tell the poor ENT that the positive means nothing since I had lyme in the past. I may continue to test positive for the rest of my life. That's what the body does. It "remembers" what it experienced in the past through antibodies. That's the way I look at it anyway.
My case is typical. That's why Burrascano says that the Western Blot test results do NOT mean active disease. They just indicate exposure if the test is positive. My Western Blot 6 years ago indicated previous exposure only.
I then went to another ENT who got rid of my sinus infection. Yes!
Note: When reading the Burrascano Guidelines, you must look up every single word that is unfamiliar to you. The document was meant for other physicians, not patients. So, it is full of special medical terms that you may think you understand, but you don't. So, don't guess. Look up or Google every word to really be sure you understand what Burrascano is saying.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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Brussels
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I guess, we come back to "lyme requires a clinical diagnosis"...
or the microscope as suggested by TF! (even though Bb does NOT like to live in the blood, and when they do, they are present there in very LOW amounts!).
They like conjunctive tissue!
I am off lyme for many years, but my immune system was in wreck after it was gone.
Plus the toxins bound to cartilage, joints, AND NERVES, and then in the brain, in the bones where infections was virulent (in my case, inside my cheekbones, after I lost a couple of teeth to lyme and parallel infections).
All those toxins and damaged tissues are weakened, then the immune system (adrenals, thyroid, etc) is so weakened too after lyme.
So I still kept loosing healthy teeth with the years, still felt slight arthritic problems (that dr. K's followers attributed to fungal /candidal infections),
....still felt run down sometimes,
...still had active candida coming again and again (even though less virulent and for much shorter times than during lyme).
I use energy testing of Borrelia nosodes, in different dilutions, to see if I have any sort of active Borreliosis.
Then I use the Borrelia Antigen nosodes, to see if the antigens are not causing me symptoms still.
When they come negative (that is in 99.9999% of times), well, I ignore lyme and treat other things (hormones, candida, diet, allergies, HPU, heavy metals, neural therapy whatever....).
--------------------- but it may NOT matter whether you have lyme or not. You do need treatment if you are symptomatic.
I think this article makes us think very different about lyme and chronic infections:
It does make sense, what he says (even though I don't think this is the final answer for our chronic disease problem, it is close to a final answer on 'what to do, to gain your health back').
I mean, going after pathogens is really just one small part of the problem...
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Thank you both for your replies! That article looks great, can't wait to read it.
Since I posted my question, my sons' labs came back positive for Lyme too AND also high EBV antibodies. Things seem to be running in the family for us. Dad is getting tested too, but he only has minimal symptoms.
I guess it comes down to testing, but also is the person symptomatic? In other words, the whole picture, not just labs by themselves. My son and I both have positive Lyme tests and are both symptomatic, so I guess that tells a lot.
-------------------- Hypopituitary syndrome and secondary adrenal insufficiency Posts: 8 | From South Bend IN USA | Registered: Jun 2013
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TF
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Right. This is what Burrascano wants everybody to know!
Burrascano lists all the factors that must be considered on page 7, "Diagnostic Hints" in order to make the diagnosis.
The diagnosis is tentative until you do the final step--give the patient a trial course of lyme treatment (antibiotics) and see what happens.
Read it on page 7. Burrascano says the trial course of treatment is a "very important factor" in coming up with the diagnosis.
So, tests are just one factor among many. Symptoms are an important factor. How you respond to treatment nails the diagnosis.
The best pediatric lyme doctors will NOT treat a child with a positive test if the child has no symptoms. They say, "Leave well enough alone. The immune system is handling it."
But, once the child has enough symptoms, then they will give him/her a trial course of antibiotics.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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Brussels
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TF says:
"How you respond to treatment nails the diagnosis.
The best pediatric lyme doctors will NOT treat a child with a positive test if the child has no symptoms. They say, "Leave well enough alone. The immune system is handling it."
-------------------------
That is a wonderful thing, if pediatric doctors are doing that!
I DO WONDER, if I hadn't got DOXY at first, when I got my EM rash, if lyme would have developed in my case.
I had ZERO symptoms (except for rash) when I got doxy, and I read and heard other people with so many EM rashes who did NOTHING because they didn't want abx or they didn't KNOW about lyme:
Well, these guys NEVER developed lyme disease, in the end!!!
We today know that EM-rash is not a bad sign in itself: it means the immune system is still working, and that is why Bb has to try to reproduce on the skin, in order to raise in numbers then colonize other parts of the body.
Some doctors think that Bb is doing that as a last resource, because inside, the immune system is fighting Bb, so they go to the skin, where there is less blood, less lymph, less macrophages, bad circulation.
Almost like a last cry for them.
I wonder if doxy didn't contribute for my falling ill with chronic lyme, as I passed from NO SYMPTOM (em rash, but feeling healthy, active) to totally sofa-bound, barely able to walk, total neurolyme in less than 4,5 months!!
Maybe not, but if I had to go back in time, antibiotics would be THE LAST thing I would have done. Last, really, because I need my gut to fight against so many problems!
So, yes, thumbs up for parents and doctors who DO NOT TREAT children just because they are positive, but present no lyme symptoms!
Dr. RAu from Paracelsus Clinic here is fighting for that too: he thinks it is absurd to treat people because they are simply Westernblot positive, but totally symptomless of lyme!!
He said that then, almost every person in the area I live should be then receiving antibiotics!! Most people are Westernblot positive here!
Herbs, hypebaric oxygen, sports, diet, PEMFs, Rife, microcurrent, homeopathics, yes, all are good idea, but destroying the gut with heavy drugs, destroying the gut of guys who's got reasonable health, is really OUT, in my opinion.
Specially poor children.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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As for having symptoms after lyme is gone: I guess it is possible.
I had to treat myself with Borrelia Antigen nosodes.
I think it's a bit like autoimmune diseases, that attack its own body parts...
I had to take these Bb Antigen nosodes to sort of get rid of last symptoms.
After so many years fighting Bb, I think my immune system, who produced many antibodies against lyme (as photon immune therapy got rid of Bb for me and my daughter), had to be 'turned off', so to say.
When Bb was not there anymore, I still had mild symptoms (don't ask me which, I can't remember).
I remember that Bb antigen tested strongly, and I flashed the nosodes with photons then, and felt a CLEAR relief.
It's published here somewhere in lymenet, I'm sure.
My daughter also needed those Antigen nosodes after Bb was gone.
I guess it's like erasing the memory of Borrelia from the immune system.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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TF
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Brussels, it is only the BEST LYME doctors who treat children that are saying not to treat. So, this is a very few pediatric doctors.
Non-lyme literate pediatric doctors could be doing anything. I don't know anything about what they may be doing.
But, the pediatric lyme doctors I recommend to people are treating as I stated above.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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