Topic: Guess what is where it isn't suppose to be!
Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Is nothing sacred anymore? It’s everywhere! Now they find it in the GULF OF MEXICO & FISH & SHELLFISH too!
Yes, take away my seafood and I am going to have a genuine melt-down! What's next? Pizza? Ice Cream? UGH!
QUOTE- "Surprisingly, non-native genera of public health concern were also detected, including Borrelia [Lyme], Ehrlichia, Leptospira, Mycobacterium, Mycoplasma, Salmonella, Staphylococcus, Streptococcus, and Treponema."
QUOTE- "It also represents a useful tool in public health as it may help identify infectious diseases associated with exposure to marine water and ingestion of fish or shellfish, and thus may be useful in predicting and preventing waterborne disease outbreaks."
At least we now know the big mystery behind the marine animals that Dr. Breitschwerdt's discovered that were infected with Bartonella.
They probably didn’t get Bartonella from little ticks on little rafts swimming out to sea to attach themselves to the whales and porpoises, although that was a plausible “working idea" in MY mind because ticks have so many legs they could have used as paddles.
Dr. Breitschwerdt's Studies- Porpoises & Whales With Bartonella
Pathog Dis. 2017 May 23. doi: 10.1093/femspd/ftx058. [Epub ahead of print]
Analysis of bacterial metagenomes from the Southwestern Gulf of Mexico for pathogens detection.
Escobedo-Hinojosa W, Pardo-López L.
Abstract
Little is known about the diversity of bacteria in the Southwestern Gulf of Mexico.
The aim of the study illustrated in this perspective was to search for the presence of bacterial pathogens in this ecosystem, using metagenomic data recently generated by the Mexican research group known as the Gulf of Mexico Research Consortium.
Several genera of bacteria annotated as pathogens were detected in water and sediment marine samples.
As expected, native and ubiquitous pathogenic bacteria genera such as Burkolderia, Halomonas, Pseudomonas, Shewanella, and Vibrio were highly represented.
Surprisingly, non-native genera of public health concern were also detected, including Borrelia, Ehrlichia, Leptospira, Mycobacterium, Mycoplasma, Salmonella, Staphylococcus, Streptococcus, and Treponema.
While there are no previous metagenomics studies of this environment, the potential influences of natural, anthropogenic and ecological factors on the diversity of putative pathogenic bacteria found in it are reviewed.
The taxonomic annotation herein reported provides a starting point for an improved understanding of bacterial biodiversity in the Southwestern Gulf of Mexico.
It also represents a useful tool in public health as it may help identify infectious diseases associated with exposure to marine water and ingestion of fish or shellfish, and thus may be useful in predicting and preventing waterborne disease outbreaks.
posted
Wouldn't frying your fish etc. before ingestion kill the bacteria?
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
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Bartenderbonnie
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Come on . . . You ve got to be kidding me ! I can't take it !
I would sign up for the Mars mission but I m castrophobic and scared of heights.
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
Foxy, that would be the hope, but no one has done studies on it that I know about.
Problem is too, many people eat and enjoy raw oysters, lightly steamed clams, oysters & shrimp, raw fish (not me) and lightly fried eels, crawdads, seaweed, etc.
And typically you don't cook fish or shellfish till it is really well done without it being burnt or mushy. (Inedible.)
It's just a shame we need to be cautious about beef, venison, lamb, milk, turtles, frog legs, and now all this sea food too. At least until we know for sure cooking (and how much cooking) will absolutely kill the spirochetes and other infectious agents.
Even if we do learn what it takes to kill the bacteria, it will still eliminate raw seafood, rare to medium well cooked meats, etc. in our diets.
BB- At least that last tick bite or that no seafood news hasn't affected your sense of humor! HA!
Tincup
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Member # 5829
posted
Not to mention how this will negatively affect watermen and their families, truckers, seafood markets, marinas, sporting good suppliers (fishing), restaurants, etc. along the Gulf and elsewhere.
The Gulf and its economy still hasn't recovered from the latest oil spill. This could be the final nail in the coffin for many people who are still struggling to make ends meet.
AND... what about swimming, surfing, sailing and such in the infected water? Beach towns, beach related businesses, etc. could all have a tuff time.
It's a sad day to see this kind of news, for me at least.
posted
Interesting. Though I think if you used all the new technologies youd find these types of bacteria eveywhere in a percentage of all creatures. Its just now they are searching for it. Also its some kind of leap to say you can contract these coinfections or lyme from eating something. Virtually all of us have bites as our vector. That might be the ideal way to turn exposure into infection.
Posts: 173 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2015
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Geneal
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I guess this is one time where being allergic to all seafood doesn't suck. I thought salt was a sanitizing agent. Wow. Posts: 6250 | From Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
How would all these bacteria land in the water? Here I've thought it takes infected bugs to transmit these illnesses.
Posts: 13116 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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Wouldn't many of our beef, chicken etc. probably be carrying Lyme and other who knows what??
Tincup, that makes sense seafood isn't cooked as much. (I wouldn't know cause I stick with four legged beasties mostly, or at least fully cooked flappers!)
Ticks can be found on just about every living breathing things... and doesn't the bacteria die upon oxygen exposure???
Almost all cats have bartonella not? (or at least a lot of them) and toxoplasmosis...(in their feces) the cat that scratched ME sure did.... NASTY!!!
AHHHHHHHH if NOT, then it is SPREADABLE from hand shaking, kissing, patting, etc. etc.
Bartender Bonnie, I am right with you... maybe we can just compromise and chug around in space suits. Esp, when in the garden!!!
What do you think Tincup? Will Nasa donate us all space suits?
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
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Brussels
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foxy loxy asked:
"Wouldn't many of our beef, chicken etc. probably be carrying Lyme and other who knows what??"
of course they ARE contaminated with all sorts of tick borne pathogens!!
It's just an epidemiological book, describing tick born diseases, how much animals, such as farm animals are infected, ticks, birds, mice, lice, people.....
Just statistic numbers, but they do SAY a lot in themselves!!
We're just one more species that ticks and biting insects use to transmit pathogens.
the most amazing thing is that most farm animals are mostly seropositive for Bb!!
And not only one Borrelia, but many types of borrelia.
If farm animals are contaminated, in GREAT NUMBERS, well, meat, milk is contaminated.
Why?
Because Borrelia cysts are not killed by cooking or normal pasteurization techniques. They resist more 600 degrees Celsius according to recent studies (or more, I can't remember the number exactly).
Anyway, cooking meat does not kill cysts, unless you cook them higher than 600 C (6 times boiling water temperature!!)
So, you got to stop eating meat, any meat, any animal product too!! (???)
-------------- My question is:
what about bed bugs??? Small microscopic bed bugs? What if THESE are proved to have Bb and bart?
Would you sleep standing on the wall??? Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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I just read that milk pasteurization is only 72 Celsius??!
Well, Bb cysts are laughing at us!!!
But I agree with Christopher: vector biting seems to be the major part of infection for us.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Keebler
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- Related, but in some way that my brain can't quite put to words.
And, oh, wonder where the toilets from boats big & small unload? Not always how we think. Lots of diapers go to the oceans, too, along with so much other trash that makes the sea critters sick.
But sea critters also encounter vectors, sea lice, etc. Fish "farms" make this matter much worse as the sea lice thrive and then escape to other ocean fishes.
Still, even before mankind came about, the process got a start:
Ugh, Your Delicious SEA SALT May Have An Unwanted Ingredient: Plastics
By Carla Herreria - HuffPost - 5/17/17
This story is part of a series on ocean plastics. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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hiker53
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I have decided that I can't worry about everything in life, so I am going to enjoy my shrimp cocktail, smoked oysters, and cooked fish.
Give me some crab or lobster, too.
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 8890 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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Keebler
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- It's not so much about not worrying as just knowing how to find the cleanest sources for the foods we enjoy -- and being mindful of how our personal habits, and societal tendencies - affect the foods we require.
The web makes is so much easier to find the best sources. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
If everything is infected with Borrelia, and etc. than everyone should be infected as well.
Why doesn't everyone test positive???????
Which means either
A. there is something wrong with MY immune system (Than why do antibiotics help?)
B. You can ingest Borrelia etc. and it does not infect you...(hard to believe.)
C. Maybe it depends on HOW MANY infections you get at once? (probable)
I do think this whole Lyme thing is STRANGE!!!!!!! I do not understand it AT ALL... and really wish it would get studied!
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
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Brussels
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... avoid unprotected sex, avoid sleeping in beds from other people (even your own, because you already had lyme), never make a baby (because you pass it to the baby) etc
2) OR is lyme an IMMUNE disease?
The person had burdens and weaknesses before the infection, and the contact with the pathogen was the tipping point to develop a clear illness.
Then they should aim at re-building the body and their immune system. Only then, they get back to a healthy state.
The main fault is the weak immune system, not the pathogen.
Killing the pathogen is not at the core of the treatment, but the immune system is.
The aim is to get healthy again. Once you feel good again, the treatment is done.
You don't need to avoid contact with the pathogen, because your body shall be able to deal with it.
So, you are healed!
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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In my opinion, the truth is IN BETWEEN the 2 views.
Killing the pathogen helps the immune system to recover.
Pathogens seem to become more and more virulent in the last decades.
Ticks are colonizing areas that weren't their territory before.
BUT....ONLY killing will not bring many of us to health, nor allow a healthy positive life style.
Just think about being afraid of sleeping on your own mattress for life?
Afraid of strolling in nature for life?
Afraid of any flying insects? Cows, chicken, sheep, ALL farm animals, your own dog and cat?
Now fish, shellfish too?
Just relax!
People mistake 'not catching colds', 'strong muscular force' as = being healthy!!
If you look at cancer, you'll see that 'muscular force' and 'not catching colds' aren't really signs of a healthy immune system (because strong muscular athletes such as Lance Armstrong can still get cancer!).
During lyme many people don't catch colds, and it doesn't mean they are healthy!
I rarely caught colds since my childhood but fell terribly ill with lyme.
You don't see the health of the immune system by clear visual signs or a list of clear features.
The more you read about cancer, you'll see that it looks like any body-type can 'get' cancer. And cancer is basically, an immune disease (even though it IS connected to pathogens in many cases).
------------------------- Keep treating, not only the pathogen but your whole body, and you guys will make it!!
I'm bitten at least 3 times a year. Average is about 5 times / year.
My yearly statistical chance to be injected with Bb is 100%!!!
Before treatment, one bite would easily put me in bed arrest for months.
Now I don't get symptoms, usually, unless the tick is very very contaminated (too many pathogens at once). Then I just take some homeopathics, herbs, and the disease does not manifest anymore.
It's been 8 years lyme free DESPITE constant new tick bites. My daughter too!
This year, 2017, I already got 2 tick bites, my daughter one. I'm already on 66% chance of infection just this year!
Keep treating the body holistically while you kill some pathogens here and there, and GET YOUR LIFE BACK!
I don't see the purpose of treating such a difficult disease like lyme to get in the end LIFE IN PRISON as a reward! Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Growing up, (I am thirty) I pulled ticks off me all the time. We didn't know about Lyme.
So did everyone else. I can't imagine there are very many people around here who haven't been bitten.
Did they just happen NOT to get the tick with Lyme and I did? What are the chances when 75% of the ticks tested in my area have it???
WHY oh WHY do some get sick and others do not?
I agree Brussels. I am NOT living my life inside! Though TRUST ME... I am NOT lounging in the weeds either. And I do try to wear deterrents and shower directly after being outside!
I am an outdoor fan. I love gardening and watching things grow. I want to mow my grass and take a hike in the woods.
BUT... I can say that I think about it a lot now and try to do the best I can not to get bitten again!
I once found a tick on my cat. I took it off and had a delightful time burning him up with a match. OH how delightful to watch him turn into a crispy corpse!!!!!
Posts: 477 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Nov 2015
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Brussels
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The moment I was writing that yesterday, a tick was BITING ME!!!!
Can you believe that? Number 3 this year. I reached my 100% statistical chance of being re-infected!!
Yep, avoid bites if you can.
I only went out for 10 minutes to water my plants in pots... I took a shower before bed, and bingo: I found the tick behind my left knee, the exact knee that screamed of pain due to lyme 12 years ago...
It was not a nymph, but already very 'black' in color.
Now that the tick head from bite number 2 fell off from my back, I get a third bite.
If I hadn't taken that shower, I would have discovered it only in the morning.
I'm on GcMaf, I hope it is activating some macrophages...
It's been 8 years without a relapse. How can there be so many ticks now, that is so hot?!
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Tincup
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Christopher,
You said.. "Also its some kind of leap to say you can contract these coinfections or lyme from eating something."
Hopefully I didn't say that. I am concerned, however, that it might be a possibility and until, as I said earlier, more studies are done, we just won't know for sure.
We had to wait decades before we knew for sure if Lyme could be sexually transmitted. Or passed thru blood or organ donations. Now we know. And better safe than sorry while we don't know.
Geneal, I am still laughing at that comment!
Robin239287595683745- you said...
"How would all these bacteria land in the water? Here I've thought it takes infected bugs to transmit these illnesses."
Good thought to ponder. As we know, Lyme can be passed thru organ/blood donations. Also sexual transmission. No bugs involved there.
As for being in water or water creatures... maybe when mosquitoes large are infected and the bigger things eat them it happens?
Maybe because there is no designated bathroom space for fish it happens? They go anywhere and everywhere they want.
Maybe it was always there, even started there, and we just didn't know?
Tincup
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posted
Foxy- funny you! Don't know if we can all get space suits, so I am thinking maybe we could get enough of them for the IDSA/CDC toads to have and send them all out of this world?
Studies are being done showing some of the problems that many never consider. Here is one on cows. They found Bb in milk, serum, meat, etc.
QUOTE- "Dairy cattle and other food animals can be infected with B. burgdorferi and hence some raw foods of animal origin might be contaminated with the pathogen. Recent findings indicate that the pathogen may be transmitted orally to laboratory animals, without an arthropod vector. Thus, the possibility exists that Lyme disease can be a food infection."
Here I've highlighted in red some of the important points to consider.
Brussels, you said.. "My question is: what about bed bugs??? Small microscopic bed bugs? What if THESE are proved to have Bb and bart?"
Not sure what a microscopic bed bug is, but bed bugs can and some do carry Lyme and Bartonella. If you mean lice, they too can harbor the bacteria.
Here is an abstract about common dust mites...
QUOTE- "House dust mite DNA contains evidence of Bartonella and other Gram-negative species. These Gram-negative species are likely to be the sources of the endotoxin found in mite allergenic extracts."
Tincup
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posted
Keebler, very interesting thoughts and info. Thanks of sharing it. Always.
Foxy, you asked... "Why doesn't everyone test positive???????"
You provided 3 possibilities which are all true. I'd add another... that if the tests didn't suck so badly and the IDSA/CDC weren't doing all in their power to shut us up and deny us and send the funding to their buddies, we may have been able to have more answers by now.
As to another concern you had... Dr. J in CT told me not too long ago that the children are showing up with more and more diseases, in much worse shape and they are much more complex and harder to treat than he has ever seen. I agree.
We don't know why, we just try to deal with what's in front of us the best we can.
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