posted
Ok guys. First time poster....long time lurker. (Like 12 years). Serious question: Everytime I take high dose probiotics.....my symptoms get worse.....especially my joint pain. So, since we get all, (NOTE:ALL) of our modern antibiotics from bacteria and yeasts. (People seem to forget that). And it is a proven medical fact that bacteria produce antimicrobials to fight each other. Is it possible that maybe.....just maybe.....a high dose strain is producing enough antibiotic"compound??" to kill LD?? Experiences please? PS "IN BOLD" please don't say it's a candida herx. My whole GI has been white as snow....doc gave me difucan and it was knocked out in like two days. I felt nothing. Not everything creates a Herx. Thanks guys!!
Posts: 5 | From MS | Registered: May 2018
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Posts: 764 | From Northwest | Registered: Sep 2014
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posted
Thanks for the response lookup. My thought process was.......If high dose/high end probiotic bacteria secrete antibiotic substances. Substances that are then.....absorbed systemically by the colon to kill LB. What if that is why some people seem to "herx" from probiotics......cuz well.....maybe....they are!! The question would be for posters who have used high dose probiotics for extended periods of time,(at least 3+ months). And they seem to be in a better place in treatment. If someone has taken high-end/high dose probiotics for an extended period.....and they are still sick as a dog. Then that would blow my theory out of the water. End of story.
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
A herx can be from DIRECT die-off reaction - as you said, from antimicrobial chemicals...
...or it can be INDIRECT, meaning, by adding microbes, they will fight other microbes, and when these die, they may produce neurotoxins.
Every time you change the microbiome, there will be some ecological change through substitution by the new-comers.
In nature, there is no EMPTY space: they are all filled with live bacteria or other microbes / insects / viruses / fungi / etc.
Same as in your gut, it is full. Your skin is full, your organs are fully occupied by microbes.
Add any new microbe, there will be a change in the milieu, meaning, DEATH of some bacteria.
There is no other way, as there can't be 2 microbes occupying the exact same physical space.
It is true in the small scale of the gut flora, as it is true in the bigger scale of animals occupying territories.
It's all a matter of survival, competition for food, territory, symbiosis etc.
Whether you call that indirect effect 'antibiotic' effect or not, it depends on how you see things.
All microbes are formed by chemical molecules and are smart enough to protect themselves the best way they can.
That is why microbes such as Borrelia survived the dinosaurs... and probably will survive us.
They certainly know how to produce chemicals to support their lives (herxes are a proof they know how to mess with our immune system).
But as Lookup said, a bad reaction could be simply, that the probiotic is 'wrong' and caused more imbalance.
I tried loads of probiotics during the years, and for me, no single probiotic can be taken long term. After a while, the same probiotic starts to feel 'bad'.
Rotation is preferred, or even better, PROBIOTIC FOODS. They carry enzymes that help other metabolic processes, such as breaking biofilm, aiding digestion, etc...
how do you feel after taking your probiotic? What kind of reaction you get from probiotics?
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Brussels, thanks for responding. What do you mean by......"the same probiotic starts to feel (bad)??? As I am sure you can figure out by now.....I am trying to figure out the relationship. Since to me probiotics can "feel" like antimicrobials? VS other substances/supplements or whatever that can feel "bad" as in side effect. Could probiotics kill lyme?? Another observation. Animals do not seem to be as effected by Lyme. However, the more domesticated the animal......the more prone it appears to be to lyme. VS the wild deer that has a 100 raw diet LOADED with microbes.
Case in point: It is in pubmed. A 68 year old woman with MRSA was healed of an infected bed sore with........a probiotic cocktail. Now that is ONE case.....from the 90's. But cant that say something?
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MichaelTampa
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posted
I would say one possibility is that the probiotic is having a negative impact on your overall flora balance, which is making symptoms worse. Just because probiotics are supposed to be good, and you are noticing an impact, does not mean the impact is good. We all have our own unique flora situation, and not all probiotics are going to be good to add to that situation.
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posted
Ok......so.....how would my probiotics........in my colon. Make my knees hurt more. Just like antibiotics?
Posts: 5 | From MS | Registered: May 2018
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Brussels
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posted
If you have lyme borreliosis in your knee, it's my guess that probiotics are KILLING Borrelia there.
But not the way you say: by their chemicals or so.
The way I see it possibly happening is through a BALANCE of the microbiome: you probably got a good strain that your gut needs, and by taking it, your gut flora gets balanced - meaning, you got more 'good' strains that will fight the 'bad' strains.
Borrelia loves the gut, as well as all tick-born coinfections, as far as I know, they all love the gut. Plus parasites.
I have no doubt, in my case, that when I eat daily kimchi (fermented cabbage, with its juice full of enzymes), I get a CLEAR die off reaction the first days.
it comes from the microbes, I believe, and also from enzymes (as they probably break some biofilms or help the beneficial bacteria that help digestion).
As I also eat a diet high in fibers, fresh raw veggies, I also feed the good flora (they can digest that, we humans cannot).
Adding more good probiotics through kimchi makes my good army better than the bad army (pathogenic). That is how I see.
Here in Germany / Switzerland, biological medicine uses microbe balancing remedies as a MAIN tool for any immune disease, nutrition imbalance, even heart disease, brain diseases.
Dr Rau seems to have successful treatments with very chronic lyme patients BASICALLY giving them right diet (high in fibers to feed the good flora), microbe remedies to balance the flora, some supplements to support the body overall, and basically, lyme goes to remission like that.
It is not a direct attack against Borrelia, like antibiotics, but a much more efficient, long term strategy, as balancing the flora is the only way to get long term benefits.
I finished reading his almost 600 page book, and that's it: biological medicine targets mainly the gut health as its main tool to fight a great number of chronic diseases.
If the gut is unhealthy, so is a person. People will find some relief with antibiotics, but as soon as they stop, they usually get the whole illness back. Or a new tick bite makes their lives back to hell, unless the gut is working well.
That's his main idea.
As for same probiotics feeling bad, it happens after a while. If I keep on the same pills, it will ALWAYS happen.
In my opinion, we shouldn't be taking pills with a couple of strains for very long, because that also will cause imbalance.
The gut works like a symphony. Millions of microbes, hundreds of strains.
You can't just keep adding ONE INSTRUMENT repeatedly, or a same NOTE on and on, without spoiling the whole composition.
I feel that if you have lyme arthritis and feel affected joints more painful, it could be a good sign (of herxes).
I had arthritis and I knew when a remedy was working because even the joints that HAD NOT yet got painful, would get painful after a good therapy (they had low grade infection, not still able to produce painful symptoms).
Keep taking the pills to see, but when you don't feel improvements, either shift probiotics or have a break (that's what I would do...).
Which product are you taking?
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
So you do concur Brussels. (And thank you for the point on the book) I will check that out. Yes.......I could be wrong on the way the die off could be happening. BUT, who cares.......I am more interested in IF die off is happening. That was my real question. Most people do probiotics as a preventive against yeast. Period. I figured someone.....somewhere must have noticed the same thing I have noticed. The book reference really helps. Thank you for that.
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
It is now evident that the gut microbiota has a profound effect on the host immune system and can affect autoimmune-related diseases both within and outside the gut.
Aside from the genetic factors, environmental factors play an important role in shaping the microbiota as well.
These factors should be treated with caution as inappropriate practices such as overuse of antibiotics might increase the risk of autoimmune disease by the microbiota-mediated immunomodulation.
.... we know now that even a change in a SINGLE bacterial species within the gut can have a DRASTIC impact on host immunity and pathology.
Understanding the interaction of gut microbes with the host immune system is a timely and important health topic as the rate of many diseases such as numerous immune disorders are rising at an alarmingly high speed and may result from dysbiosis of commensals.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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posted
After I was better from Lyme Disease for many years, I had to take abx for something else and ended up with c diff which went undiagnosed for 3 years (yes, it was c diff, it was reported to the CDC, and it was 3 YEARS). I ended up with SIBO in addition to the c diff and became histamine intolerant.
My doctor treated the c diff (with herbs and colloidal silver), then we spent months (more than a year) working on the SIBO. I ate a low histamine diet and took DAO.
I did not tolerate probiotics at that time at all. I was generally in pretty good health despite my gut, but probiotics would make me want to stay in bed all day. It was not a herx as I no longer had bacterial problems and did not have candida problems either. I even bought "infant" probiotics and could not tolerate them. I tried lower histamine strains that I also did not tolerate.
I had to ease into probiotics with gut shots (sauerkraut juice, but it was sold without the sauerkraut, which I could not tolerate). I started a couple times per week and built up to daily.
Eventually, after more than a YEAR, I could tolerate half a kombucha.
I still do not take probiotics (I don't feel a need for them) but I drink kombucha several times per week. I had Greek yogurt for the first time when I was on vacation and did well with it. I can eat sauerkraut and kimchi as well.
So, I don't have advice, but that was my experience. I felt bad from probiotics (even low dose) and it wasn't a candida die off or a bacterial die off.
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