Truthfinder
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Member # 8512
posted
A friend of mine across the country is herxing on 2 drops of Samento, 2 or 3 times a day. I know that happens, but thought it was primarily from being incredibly toxic when starting the Samento.
She decided to try some Samento because her sx have been so bad with chronic diarrhea, headaches, muscle and neck pain, fatigue, etc. We suspect she has Lyme, but she is still trying to find a doctor to have her tested (yes, we know the right tests for her to get).
Anyway, she has been on the SCD (Specific Carbohydrate Diet) for quite some time - with some allowances for holiday cheating - and she has been on Questran off and on for a month, so she should not be terribly toxic, I wouldn't think.
I am wondering if she also has a co-infection like Babesia or Ehrlichia - would that cause her to react so strongly when she tries to take the Samento?
Any comments out there would be appreciated.......
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I take 20 drops of Samento twice a day. I don't think I ever had a herx, but my doctor worked me up to this amount.
Have you been treated at all for heavy metals, parasites, etc.?
Posts: 856 | From Texas | Registered: Jan 2005
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Truthfinder
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posted
Thanks, Sandy - I know of another person, also, who can herx on 1 drop of Samento, but she believes it is toxin-related.
Tequeslady, I do not think my friend has been treated for heavy metals or parasites, per se.
I know that she had all her mercury-amalgam fillings replaced in her teeth a few years ago. Frankly, I don't know how she would even do a parsite cleanse or anything at this point, because almost everything she eats or takes causes pain, headaches or GI disturbances. She has dropped over 25 pounds since about June because she can hardly eat anything. She thought it was a medicine she was on - Topomax - but it appears that was only part of the story.
Her docs recently checked her for celiac disease (blood test), C. Diff., h-pylori and a few other organisms. All tests were negative.
I am at a loss as to what she should do next.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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TerryK
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Member # 8552
posted
I herxed on 1 drop 2X per day and I've heard of many others who simply could not tolerate it due to what appeared to be herxing. A person could also be allergic to samento or at least I read that at some point when I was trying to figure out why I was so ill from taking it. It is an immune system modulator so it's likely that the immune system is killing off a lot more than lyme, including possible lyme co-infections. I also had to fight off a yeast infection the whole time I was taking it even though I've read that it isn't supposed to cause a yeast problem. I know of another person who said they had yeast problems on samento.
I worked very hard to move my dose up but the best I could do was 3 drops 2X per day and I was still feeling quite ill on that. I was taking various products to sop up endotoxins and any metals that were released etc. but I was still quite ill for the 6 months that I took it. I did get significant relief from my air hunger problem while on it which promptly came back as soon as I stopped taking it.
Kind Regards, Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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TerryK
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Member # 8552
posted
Truthfinder, I'm not a medical professional but it sounds like she may have leaky gut syndrome or some other gastric problem, systemic yeast (candida) or perhaps food allergies or some combination of those.
If she can get to an alternative doctor, either an M.D. that is open minded and does alternative treatment or a naturopathic doctor they can probably help her. A start might be to get a Great Smokies Lab comprehensive digestive stool analysis http://www.gsdl.com/home/assessments/cdsa/
Also there are tests for leaky gut which can cause many symptoms, including food allergies. A competant alternative doc will know which tests to run based on her symptoms.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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5dana8
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-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Terry, thanks for sharing your experiences and comments. Part of my friend's problem is that there are very few doctors in her area that are open-minded and no NDs - it is going to be difficult to even find someone to check her for Lyme & co-infections. The Great Smokies analysis is a good idea, though.
Thanks, Dana - will go check out that website.
I will check here again tomorrow to see if there are some new posts.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I also herxed for months on toa free cats claw. 1 drop kicked my butt. Now I am able to handle quite a few drops 3Xday. I also do salt and c and bee-V shots. Only did cc without the other2. I also found through other labs that Smokies didn't find lots of different parasites. All gone now. Maybe the parasites showed up after lyme killed down. I have been told critters hide behind each other. Right now can't remember the name of the lab that found them. I am checked by practioners with muscle testing or I use a pendulum. Works for me. I am starting to have good days here and there. Yahoooo! I am greatful. 22yrs misdianosed. 15 mo treatment. Blessings to everyones healing. Joyce
Posts: 905 | From Santa Cruz,Calif | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
One of the side effects of Topamax is weight loss.
quote:Originally posted by Truthfinder: Thanks, Sandy - I know of another person, also, who can herx on 1 drop of Samento, but she believes it is toxin-related.
Tequeslady, I do not think my friend has been treated for heavy metals or parasites, per se.
I know that she had all her mercury-amalgam fillings replaced in her teeth a few years ago. Frankly, I don't know how she would even do a parsite cleanse or anything at this point, because almost everything she eats or takes causes pain, headaches or GI disturbances. She has dropped over 25 pounds since about June because she can hardly eat anything. She thought it was a medicine she was on - Topomax - but it appears that was only part of the story.
Her docs recently checked her for celiac disease (blood test), C. Diff., h-pylori and a few other organisms. All tests were negative.
klutzo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5701
posted
I've been on Samento for almost 2 years and am still only able to tolerate a maximum of 5 drops daily, due to neuroherxing. The bruxism becomes unbearably painful. When I take my breaks now, I have days where I feel 90% normal, so I know it is working, and I can go back to the neruoherxing and bear it awhile longer. I got up to ten drops per day before adding Nattokinase to get rid of the fibrin the Bb hide behind, then had to drop it down again and have not been able to raise it. Look at it this way....you are saving lots of cash because Samento is killing Bb at a very low dose. If toxicity is an issue, and I agree it is, try Cumanda to control yeast and leaky gut, and Burbur to help ease herxing. You might want to try the Lee Cowden, M. D. protocl for Lyme using Samento, Cumanda, Burbur, Quina, Bromelain, Mg Malate and a couple of other things. Nutramedix sells all of these items, I believe. I have just started Cumanda, and am planning to add Quina in a couple of weeks. Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tequeslady: [QB] One of the side effects of Topamax is weight loss.
I've lost over 40 lbs since starting Topamax without effort.
-------------------- When I feel blue . . . . . . its time to take another breath Posts: 296 | From East Coast | Registered: Aug 2005
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Truthfinder
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Member # 8512
posted
I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their comments - some very good info here. I have referred my friend over here to read your posts.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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ArtistDi
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posted
One thing you all should be aware of with Samento--if you have an autoimmune tendency, this is contraindicted. I "herxed" on very little Samento when I tried the Texas protocol and was first told it was because I was very toxic.
However, my new llmd, who also has lyme and autoimmune issues, said he felt I wasn't herxing, but rather having an immune reaction to it.
He had the same problem. I also read that Cat's Claw was contraindicted for anyone with autoimmune issues as it revs the body up.
So, one has to take that into account as well. Not everything is a herx.
Posts: 1567 | From Hatfield, MA, USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I am takeing Jernigan Silphitrin that really helps with herx's and also Coffee Enemas help greatly. www.jnutra.com.
Also getting enough minerals especially magnesium has really helpd and keeping myself akaline.
Posts: 905 | From Santa Cruz,Calif | Registered: Aug 2005
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
ArtistDi, I had not heard that Samento (the liquid TOA free version) could be a problem with autoimmune problems. I did some searching on the Interenet and came up with nothing. Where did you hear this?
This is what I found:
quote:...One of the most important differences between Samento and Cat's Claw is that Cat's Claw is an immune system stimulant and Samento is an immune system modulator. Therefore, Samento can be used to treat all autoimmune disorders; this is not the case with Cat's Claw....
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Cat's Claw is the "natural" form of the herb. In order to get ALL the benefits of Cats Claw, it is important to use the unadulterated form.
The main thing is NOT to use it along with acid blockers. Stop taking it at least 10 days before any surgery. And do not take if pregnant.
It HELPS in muscle pain, arthritus, asthma and cancers.
WHOLE cats claw is MUCH cheaper than TOA fee Cats Claw. And for the most part, more beneficial. It has been used for centuries. Use the Raintree tm brand if you want to be SURE of getting the most pure.
A lot is written about cats claw. Read Stephen Buhners book on Cats Claw. (Healing Lyme).
posted
Where are you hearing that TOA free is not the best kind of cat's claw? TOA-Free is the only kind that Dr. K thinks is good.
quote:Originally posted by JimBoB: Cat's Claw is the "natural" form of the herb. In order to get ALL the benefits of Cats Claw, it is important to use the unadulterated form.
The main thing is NOT to use it along with acid blockers. Stop taking it at least 10 days before any surgery. And do not take if pregnant.
It HELPS in muscle pain, arthritus, asthma and cancers.
WHOLE cats claw is MUCH cheaper than TOA fee Cats Claw. And for the most part, more beneficial. It has been used for centuries. Use the Raintree tm brand if you want to be SURE of getting the most pure.
A lot is written about cats claw. Read Stephen Buhners book on Cats Claw. (Healing Lyme).
posted
I am wondering WHERE this Dr. K is getting HIS info from?
I take it you have NOT read the book, "Healing Lyme"?
On page 99 of this book it reads:
"TOA/POA controversy: If you begin looking into cat's claw for the treatment of Lyme infections, you will soon come acrsoss the product "TOA-free Cat's Claw." There is some amount of hysteria about this product. It is asserted that cat's claw products containing TOA's are not effective. This is incorrect. A review of the literature shows that a single series of in vitro studies-that is, in the laboratory, in test tubes only-found that the TOAs in a uniquely prepared solution of isolated cat'sclaw constituents, in some circumstances, had negative impacts on POA activity. Specifically what occurred was this: ". . . . . . . . . . ."." (it goes on to explain the scenerio as to what took place, and then goes on to say): "To reliably make that point, the study would have to be repeated by other researchers. It has not."
It goes on for about 5 pages on this subject. Part of what reads: "Scores of other studies in five countries including the research for five patents, have shown that the whole herb (which naturally includes TOA alkaloids) stimulates the immune response". . . . . .
"The TOA-free extracts are, compared to the natural herb, exceptionally expensive".
" I strongly suggest the use of Raintree cat's claw only. (www.raintree.com). It is the primary suplement on the market that I know is of high quality and ethically wildcrafted."
Buhner writes a lot more on Cat's Claw, but way too much to write about here. Buy the book, it is cheap. And worth many times it's price.
klutzo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5701
posted
Dr. Klinghardt is one of the world's top expert LLMD's and has actually treated patients for a long time. Buhner is not even close. Your one note samba is getting more than annoying. Try reading some other books too,maybe even some research. Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by klutzo: Dr. Klinghardt is one of the world's top expert LLMD's and has actually treated patients for a long time. Buhner is not even close. Your one note samba is getting more than annoying. Try reading some other books too,maybe even some research. Klutzo
Klutzo whoa there intitled to a opinion sheezzz even when it differs from yours.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
I just bought a bottle of catsclaw from a canadian mfg, in my town and I asked the lady herbalist if the catsclaw was toa free she said oh yes absolutley well I went to there website and there is nothing about toa free on it.
So dont trust what people tell you. But I am going to use this bottle of cats claw later on when I come off the flagyl combo with penn vk I dont want to over tax my liver.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
KLUTZo: GIVE me the NAME of the BOOK that Dr KLINGHARDT has written, and I will personally read it, and THEN I will tell YOU IF IMO he is good or NOT.
Fair enough?
At least I got you to post. Better than just sitting and reading all the time. Better to do than sit and stew.
IF this Dr. K or yours were NOT an LLMD, part of the system, I might even actually believe that he has more to offer ME than Buhner. BUT the proof is in the puddin' as it were. SHOW me!
posted
well,i have been reading the threads on the newest lyme book protocol and samento...firstly,the herbalist who wrote the herbal protocol,did a generic protocol with add ons for various symptoms/problems.it sounds good,however the author has no direct experience treating lymes folks with his protocol, that we know about.,so it is still theorectical.secondly,dr.klinghardt has treated 100's of lymes patients and has lots of clinical experience with his protocols.thus his theoretical has been applied in clinical experience many times. Posts: 32 | From northern ca. | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
mr. jim bob, you seem almost to be agressive in your posts,about the herbalist 's program.i am glad it helps you so much,but it is just one of various natural ways to deal with long term chronic lymes, and i am sure he is not omnicient....altho his book is excellent.dr.klinghardt has a great protocol also.i feel sad when you attack that person klutzo or whatever the spelling is of her /his name,you attacked her/him on the other thread also.maybe you are herxing a lot. Posts: 32 | From northern ca. | Registered: Mar 2005
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klutzo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5701
posted
Dear,sweet,kind, considerate JimBob, Try Dr. Klinghardt's web site, where you will find hours of reading on his protocols, etc. www.neuraltherapy.com
May God bless you,
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Please do a search, blindly, on the internet on my doctor, our doctor, Dietrich K. Klinghardt, M.D., PhD. You will find so much information it will make your head spin.
He is the one and only doctor that got us well. I have been doing well for several years now. I post here because that is what I promised myself to do. I am now 74 years old and my husband just celebrated his 80th birthday. We both were in a wheelchair several years ago and were dysfunctional.
Dr. Klinghardt also wrote the "Lehrbuch of Psycho-Kinesiology", which is a bestseller in Germany. He has taught thousands of doctors his treatment methods, mainly ART (Autonomic Response Testing) and Neural Therapy, and many more. He will be having a seminar this coming weekend that will mainly address Lyme Disease which of course will also address the other toxic conditions, such as heavy metals, chemicals, and more. He teaches all medical professionals and he even taught me a thing or two. Much of what I have learned over the years I have posted here.
He is very excited about using herbal substances which I have been using all along; in fact, he much prefers the "plant" method because it does less permanent harm to the patient.
So cool it, my friend. You have a lot to learn. I am glad you are excited about Stephen Buhner's approach and I am most excited about another person understanding the problems of Lyme Disease. The only thing missing, which is a huge one, is the underlying toxicity that every Lyme patient has and which most likely is one of the reasons, when Lyme finally hit, it hit so hard.
Good luck, and try to be pleasant. It will make you more friends and people simply don't like to be "told".
Meaning well. Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
IS THAT what herxing is? Attacking others? My, a lot are sure herxing on me aren't they?
Much BETTER job of INFORMING me Klutzo. We can all get more out of people THAT way instead of continually attacking them. I WILL go and look at the net about him. When someone says "Dr.K" I have NO idea WHOM they are talking about. They could be talking about Dr. KKK for all I know. OR even XYZ. ' I have read a short article by him on Scotts website. It was okay. Dr. B on his website was much more enlightening, although there is NOTHING on herbs from him that I can see.
I was not attacking anyONE person on this group. Just standing up for what I know to be fact. And the truth.
Please don't try to tell me one thing when I know that another Works fine. I am not saying there isn't more than one way to skin a cat; just don't try to tell me someones theory is light years ahead of another's without some hard facts to back it up. Especially when I already know that one herb is as good or better than another.
MAN always seems to think he/she can do better than God. I know better. It has never happened, and never will. Period. You are on a viscious downward cycle IF you try.
NOW I will go to Google and see what they bring up on Dr. K.
I went to the website you recommened, however it looked to me like an advertisement for his very costly seminars, on mostly heavy metals, etc..
I could not find hours of good reading on lyme.
Maybe you could tell WHICH article or articles to go to. I already read one on Scotts website and also found that one on Google, but northing more. I am not interested in the heavy metals, etc., just lyme and its coinfections.
posted
JimBob, you can go to www.neuraltherapy.com and read some of Dr. K's articles. He hasn't written a book on Lyme to my knowledge. He is way too busy doing research and treating actual Lyme patients.
I did order the Healing Lyme book. it's just not in yet.
But, I'm sure you can understand that I trust my doctor quite a bit more than this author.
Posts: 856 | From Texas | Registered: Jan 2005
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I went to the website you recommened, however it looked to me like an advertisement for his very costly seminars, on mostly heavy metals, etc..
I could not find hours of good reading on lyme.
Maybe you could tell WHICH article or articles to go to. I already read one on Scotts website and also found that one on Google, but northing more. I am not interested in the heavy metals, etc., just lyme and its coinfections.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by JimBoB: TreePatrol: Are you taking milk thistle so you don't overtax your liver?
Jim.
I know about milk thistle but havent used it besides I havent even started catsclaw yet. And my blood tests are good sofar with what Iam on now I have another one this month coming up so well see.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
klutzo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5701
posted
JimBob, My favorite article by Dr. K, can be found at www.neuraltherapy.com, click on "Articles and Protocols" in the upper left hand corner, then click on "Lyme Disease: A Look Beyond Antibiotics", which is the first article listed. This is a PDF download, as it is quite long. I printed it out once for my holistic doc and it was 22 pages. BTW, I do not do Dr. K's protocol. Though I greatly respect him, his protocol is way out of my price range. Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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Nal
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6801
posted
Im on Samentto. Sometimes it upsets my tummy though. I am on an acid blocker. Should I not take it while on an acid blocker?? Im trying to come off the prilosec too but slowly.
Nancy
-------------------- Life is 10% what happens to you, 90% how you respond to it!
-Chuck Swindoll Posts: 1594 | From Colorado | Registered: Jan 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
YES, Nal, DEFINITELY do NOT take Cats Claw or Samento WITH an acid blocker or ANY KIND of pepto, tums or rolaids or????
hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
Just to add that Buhner knows about Dr. K's experience as he recommends the bee venon and wanted to cite Dr. K in his book (the part about bee venon was cut but is available in the internet in his site).
One of Buhner's main reference is then Dr. K. at the part about bee venon.
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Okay everybody, I finally got to Dr. K's articles early this morning. Yes, he does appear to know quite a bit about Lyme and treatment about it.
And I agree with you Klutzo, that he is way out of YOUR league AND MINE TOO.
I had to sell an old collector car project here just go get the herbs and abx that I have now, so definitely could not go to see him. Especially him being way out in Washington too, and me in WIsconsin.
I guess for that reason alone, I still think Buhner is the way to go, at least for us "Po' Folk" all over the country. He appears to be a rich man's doctor, or else someone with super good insurance at the least.
Dr. K does seem to be dedicated though. And some of his final thoughts were identical to my own, before I even read his.
All that being said, it probably behoves most of us to read any future articles he may put out there to find NEW things for us.
posted
HI jim bob,i agree with you. I tried to see dr. k but he had to cancell,switch my appt dates,due to some personal situation. he is very costly,but good.plus travelling from ca. to washington,motel,taxis,etc.or being driven,gas etc.and his waiting time is about 2 months for new patient...he seems to be the best alternative llmd around,tho there are a few who study with him and try to do things similiarly.i have been studying buhner book,and am starting to implement the herbal protocol,am on 2 caps cats claw(raintree) 3x a day and will increase to 3 caps next week.i ordered planetary formula brand of andrographis,and source naturals resveratrol,also smilax, and supplements that he recomends.sine i went 6 months on nothing but standard process vits,i felt it is time to start again.i have a lot of allergies and realise we need to tearr out the carpets in house,for dust mite allergies..etc.i have had lymes around 20 years with documented positive on and offf western blots since 1992,having sustained 6or 7 documented tick bites,i have never taken much abx except for 1 month doxy and 6 week doxy.nowi am nearly 50 years old and i need to deal with the lymes.i may add other substances,and would still like to find a llmd similiar to dr.k...but it would involve me moving.yes,there are 100s of dr. and health professionals who will charge a lot of money and not do much for you!the herbs,supplements and abx cost plenty,plus acupuncture,nmassage,etc..i am doing an experiment.my cd8-cd57,lymphs is low.buhner says cas claw and vit e can raise it.so i hope to do a full high dose of cats claw for 12 months and then get tested again.to see if it raises!pproof will be in the pudding! lynda Posts: 32 | From northern ca. | Registered: Mar 2005
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