First is mention of looking for it in an aged live blood sample under darkfield as the cells start to die. The usual way has been with stained dried smears, but that technique has not worked as well with Babesia as it does with Malaria. I'll have to try to figure out what they look like under those conditions.
--------------- Babesia: intra-cellular Malaria like protozoal organism. Infects red-cells. 2/3rds of Lyme clients also have Babesia, which is hard to diagnose: over 17 antigendifferent subspecies. Most common: B.microti, WA-1 strain in Western States and B. divergens and others in Europe
Diagnosis: best is long term observation of blood under darkfield microscope. Babesia tends to leave dying cells while under darkfield observation. �� Vertigo �� headache fatigue �� dental problems: accelerated tooth decay and cavitation formation �� TMJ problems �� eye problems (floaters and blurry vision) �� weight loss and abdominal problems (GERD) �� fibromyalgia, �� shortness of breath �� malaise �� drenching night sweats and fever/chills during Herxheimer reactions. Therapy: think Mepron or Noni, Artemisinin and Oxo ----------
The other is about HOW to take Artemisinin for Babesia:
------------- 3. Artemisinin has disappointed in our experience in the treatment of Babesia, unless given in very high doses: 1200-1500 mg/day given 3 days in a row, repeat after a 2 week break. This is the way the drug is used in China for treatment of Malaria. After the initial 2 courses a 2-3 day course should be given once/month --------------
Most LLMD's have people take 200 or 300mg of it every day. I think Dr. K's approach is more likely to work. I have used the high doses before, and I know they are tolerable, at least for me. Some Penicillin with it really gives it some kick.
(Your mileage may vary, so always ask your Doctor before trying anything.)
[ 27. January 2006, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: James H ]
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I was getting much better results with a higher dose. I would take it for 5 days and then rest for 3 to keep the absorption levels high. It also makes a difference if you keep it 4 hrs away from all atioxidants - esp milk thistle and vit E. Also taking it on an empty stomach and with some borage or black currant oil to help with absorption is very important. Another thing that I found to help was to take some bromelain 1/2 hr before it.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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ConnieMc
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Member # 191
posted
quote:Originally posted by James H: unless given in very high doses: 1200-1500 mg/day given 3 days in a row, repeat after a 2 week break. -------------- [/b]
So how do you take the 1200 - 1500 mg/day? In divided doses? How many and how much?
5dana8
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Member # 7935
posted
connieMc-good question:
I would also like to know about the 1200-1500 doses.How is it divided?
like 600-2XD and 750- 2XD?
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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caat
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Member # 2321
posted
I think he's probley right about a higher dose... The reason it's pulsed like that is it has some toxic properties and most feel it isn't a good thing at high doses for very long at all.
For anyone considering this, a word of warning- an allergic reaction to artemisia (artemisunin, artemether, possibly riamet (??)) concerns the heart. Whether this is a true allergic reaction or not is not important. It is something to seriously consider.
Most people are NOT allergic to it. However, I am, and I can say from experience it's pretty scarey if you are allergic. This is a drug which is probley safer to try first at a reduced dose to make sure you are ok with it before taking these higher doses. If you are one of the few people allergic to it those doses would not be safe.
But again- most people are perfectly OK with it.
James,
I was googling babs the other day and didn't save the site but found babs infected cells are weaker than the others. It was mentioned they frequently break while smearing blood, especially if it's not done gently. Might be just as good as "aged", don't know. Unless you want to catch them in the act... That would be exciting!
Hmmm... did you also mention they're weak in one of the threads? My short term memory is shot...
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
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Exactly how high a dosage have you taken? 1200 to 1500 sort of scares me. What was your reaction?
Anyone else taken a very high dose? Highest I did recently was 600 a day for a couple of days. No bad reaction or anything.
-Connie
Posts: 81 | From NJ | Registered: Mar 2005
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ConnieMc
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 191
posted
Bringing this back up for an answer on how to take this. Divided doses? How much per dose, etc.?
Also want to know if it is necessary to take this with something else, like you do with Mepron. I only take antibiotics 1 week out of a month. I am on maintenance therapy. I was thinking of throwing in this 3 day protocol to see how it goes. I think most of my probs are with Babesia.
I hear good things about Riamet, but had recently read that US wasn't letting it in the country. Anyone had success getting this lately?
Thanks...
Posts: 2275 | From NC | Registered: Oct 2000
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hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
James, thanks for the post. Great to see Dr. Klinghardt tried the high dose approach. I did it too, but neuro-herxes were very strong.
Buhner talks about what the Chinese do for MALARIA:
Dosage at 800 mg daily drops the recurrence rate to nearer only 3%. So in China, drs use 800mg-1600 mg per day for 3 days, then repeat again in two weeks.
I suppose the dosage must be divided into 3 times minimum, because I don't think most people can tolerate such high doses at once!
I read once that one could calculate how much one could take a day depending on body weight (don't ask me where, I can't remember...).
I calculated it and for me was no more than 900mg (I'm 45 kg). So I took it 3x 300mg, on empty stomach, no other drugs/ killing herbs, far from vitamins and antioxidants. And with water, no grapefruit juice. I stopped most supplements one day before starting it too.
I thought my head was going to explode as it kills borrelia too, I'm pretty sure!! You herx tons, in my case got neuro and arthritic herxes. I had tried it before, in lower doses, so I knew I was not allergic. Expect strong GI reaction too.
I haven't done my second course yet. But will do. I had tried Riamet before, I think I got no more babesia, but just to be sure, I did these last trials with Artemisinin.
Thanks for the tip on re-doing it again later (Buhner doesn't write about that).
Buhner says: Side effects on high doses: GI upset, loss of apetite, nausea, cramping, diarrhea, vomiting. Very high doses (5000mg day for 3 days) have caused liver inflamation. It resolves after discontinuation.
He recommends red root (Ceanothus americanus) to clear dead cellular tissue from the lymprh system with the die off of babesia.
To add a last thing: I think this high dose artemisinin I took a few days ago helped to clear my joint arthritis as I'm almost 100% arthritis- free for the first time since I got lyme symptoms.
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I was just commenting on Dr. K's comments about taking artemisinin at high doses intermittently rather than small amounts continually. It isn't my protocol or one I have been on, so I am in no position to say how he expects the dose to be taken.
That said, I took artemisinin at a similar dose once quite awhile ago for what may have actually been one of the lesser Malaria strains, using a WHO regimen I found in one of their publications on different Malaria treatments.
It was a mg./kg. type dose that I don't remember exactly anymore, but as I recall it was a similarly high dose for maybe 5 days, with a double loading dose the first day.
How did I take it? I took a couple at a time the first day to be careful, until I felt safe in taking it in larger amounts. It seems to affect different people very differently. It didn't give me any problems at all except for a very noticable bitter taste in my mouth.
The WHO document really seemed to be saying to take it in one dose each day, and I personally was able to do that with no problem. The ring forms in stained blood smears did not come back, and neither did the severe headaches I had been getting. I wish Lyme was that easy.
You have to have the perspective though that the WHO is talking about treating a very deadly disease... the type of Malaria that they are most concerned with.
When you have a disease that might kill you within the next 48 hours, you have a little different view of the side effects and risks of the medicines!
As far as I know artemisinin is pretty safe, but anytime you take something new and unfamiliar it is good to try it cautiously before just swallowing the maximum dose. I'm sure the Dr. in the article has more specific instructions that he gives to his patients.
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I started this yesterday. Took 4 doses: 300 400 300 400
To add up to 1400 mg. Didn't stop my Malarone or Tindamax. I've noticed no real Herxing. Maybe only some increased arm pain - not a lot.
I've been using Malarone and Tindamax for the last couple of months and never had much of any Herx either. Only started to feel better.
Anyway, I decided not to stop what I was on (the Malarone in particular) 'cause I know that Riamet is a combination of artemether and lumefantrine.
Sooo....it seems artemisinin needs to be in combination with other things to be effective I guess. (if it's effective at all).
I'm gonna do the same 1400mg dose today and tomorrow = 3 days, and I'll post if anything unusual happens....positive or negative.
-CLC
Posts: 81 | From NJ | Registered: Mar 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Selma: IF you look on page 164 of Buhner's Healing Lyme book, you will see he actually does write about repeating it later.
In the middle of the page, on "DOSAGE IN LYME DISEASE", he states "which is perhaps why dosage in China is higher -- 800mg to 1600mg per day for three days, repeated again in two weeks".
He mainly recommends the lower dosage of 300 to 500mg daily for 30 to 40 days, for Lyme Disease. THAT is what I am going to go for this month.
breathwork
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 567
posted
I stopped Artemisinin at 600 a day after my hair started falling out in hand fulls. I am very anemic and was taking iron, a no no with artemisinin I found out later...So stopped the iron and the exhaustion and hair loss was more than I could deal with.
If the babs kills the red blood cells and my iron levels are way low, I have to supplement some how....
Doing this pulsing method of high dose every two to three weeks would allow me to address both issues, stopping the iron when I take the artemisinin and beginning again between pulses.
Makes sense to me.
Posts: 1062 | From CA USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I took higher doses of artemesia when I was taking mepron/ketek without a problem . . . except for when I stopped the artemesia . . .it was very noticeable as far as an increase in symptoms.
I recently tried upping (doubling) my usual artemesinin dose that I pulse weekly and my liver & spleen were inflamed (painful) by the beginning of the 3rd day. I'm still having residual problems and don't have the problem under control yet.
I've been on abx 7 months and have my liver/cbc done every 3-4 weeks and have never had problems until I tried this.
Just relaying my experience. . . . .
-------------------- When I feel blue . . . . . . its time to take another breath Posts: 296 | From East Coast | Registered: Aug 2005
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5dana8
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posted
I am on my second round of abx combined with artemisinin & mepron for treatment with babs.
I have been pulsing 4 days on & 11 days off.
I started out with 300 artemisinin 2XD with my the combo of my other meds the first round.The herx's where strong.
I started my second round today & uped the artemisinin to 5oo in am.Felt like puking all day. Decided to go to 400 in my evening dose.The nausa was just a little better.
I only weigh 97 punds and have a sensitive stomach,So I think I must stay at 400 mg in 2XD.The herx's in this protocal for babs is some of the worst I have ever had.Including 6 months IV.
Fever's,Chills,extreme dizzines,extreme fatique,muscle aches,head pressure,overly emotional.And it hit me bad within 4 hours of taking my first dose.It has also started to stir up my pvc's again,which had disapeared a year or more ago.
For those out there with a small body weight and a sensitive stomach,be careful if you decide to go up to a higher dose.
If I trash my stomach ,much like I did this summer, I had to stop all meds untill my stomach healed.Which really set me back.
So be very very careful and listen to you body and don't push it if your stomach isn't able to handle higher does's.In the long run,for me,it just isn't worth it.
I don't know about the 3 3XD with the artemisinin .Would your body only get the lower dose 3 3XD?Your body wouldn't be hit with the higher doses,just sustained lower doses.I wonder if this would be effective enough?
On brighter note after the first 4 days on this treatment (I am to pulse & take 11 days off).It took 4-5 days after stopping the 4 days in herx hell to clear out the herx's & toxins I had a decent rest of the week off.
Take care
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Elle:
IF you were taking the whole herb artemisia instead of the extract artemisinin, you NEEDED a much larger dose just to get some good out of it.
Buhner states that you need 9 GRAMS 3 times a day of Artemisia, compared to 300 to 500 mg as far as I can tell.
hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
Just an update: I finished a second cycle on high dose artemisinin today. First cycle, 'only 900mg/day for 5 days' (I'm thin). Bad herxes, but body temperature got a little better at the end. But even arthritis improved well (?). Strong GI problems.
Second cycle (2 weeks later): day 1: 900mg day 2: 1,100mg days 3,4,5: 1,200mg Much less herxes than first time, just first day felt punctual 'explosions' in the head (painful but bearable). Body temperature raised again to normal by the 4th day during day and night, I'm feeling well. I added turmeric and a lot of raw garlic 3x day, but had to withdrawl salt (gave me high blood pressure).
Took LOTS of milk thistle/ artichoke as I had no red root tincture then.
This time, no GI problems (artemisinin is also antiparasitic, must have done the job the first cycle ??).
Only a strange symptom 'appeared'/ got reinforced: ear pressure (?). Today, my main lyme symptom (?) is then only ear pressure, not arthritis anymore. I wonder if this is still nor herx from artemisinin killing more borrelia...
I did another Westernblot last week, wondering what will be the outcome this time...
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
To CLC, Dana, Hardynaka (and anyone else who recently tried a high dose of Artemisinim for a few days):
Could you post comments on your experience -- how did it go taking the higher dose, do you think it was more helpful than taking 300 mg/day over a longer period of time? Thanks.
Lesley
Posts: 164 | From USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
Hey leslie1945
I think with any other drugs weight is sometimes an important factor.I have dropped down to 95 since I started babs treatments three weeks ago.MY stomach is takin a hit.And I can't afford to lose another pound.
I am taking: atremisinin,biaxin,doxy,plaquinil,mepron,tindamax.Pulsing 4 days on & 11 off.
I know my bad herx's are partly due to introducing the ateminsinin & mepron(only new two drugs)
On my secound round, I upped it to 500 2xd the first day and it was too much.I thought I was gonna die. So I went down to 400 2xd.
just my personal opinion but I dont think the sustained low doses I was doing at first where as effective.
One a positive note my body temp is feeling warmer on my days off.But when I am start my first day back on the babs treatment,get the chills and can't warm up.
For me with the artemisinin has been and still is trial by error.
Am going to start again monday and try the 500 2xd and see if my body does better this time.
I think this babs treatment is stirring things up in my body because on my week off this week I have had joint pain in places I never had before.
Joint pain was never one of my major problems.
This is disturbing to me because with no drugs in me at all for 7 days now how could i still be herxing?
I sure hope I didn't push the ketes or babs into my joints! I am worried about this .
on my four days on ,the worst by far is the crushing fatique,emotional roller coaster,muscle aches,head pressure (worst on first day),chills and brain fog. All my lyme symptoms muliplyed by 10.
I wish there was more hard science/research on the arteminsinin and dosages
Has any one else been pusling for babs and found new symptoms surfacing on their days off?
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Dana:
I have been having pains on ANY of the abx I am on the last few weeks. I didn't have hardly ANY pain before, once I had started the herbs, BEFORE the abx. At least my stomach feels better on Doxy rather than the tetracycline.
My neck is stiff again, though; legs/joints not good; some headaches; occasional eye problems again; (first since started the herbs). Very sore left shoulder, again. Vertigo. Darn.
Don't like getting these feelings back. Hope they go away once I get off the abx and artemisinin/Red Root in a few weeks. Went back on the Resveratrol tonight, so maybe THAT will help at least a little.???
posted
I recently tried Riamet after two weeks of primaquine. Two weeks were not actually the full dose of primaquine, it turns out you are supposed to go for 3-6 weeks, but I had a temporary 90% reduction in symptoms, and when they came back, they weren't as bad as before.
In contrast, the Riamet was not strong enough. The high-dose artemisinin in Riamet did temporarily lower my fever, but the additional malaria drug was too weak, and didn't hit the dormant forms of the babesia. I relapsed in two days. I'm on mepron and artemisinin supplements right now, and if anyone knows how to get additional primaquine that isn't actually sugar pills, please let me know.
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