Dr. K talks about Lyme & Cavitations. He believes that the dental work must be taken care of to reduce the toxic load on the immune system.
Have you had cavitation surgery? What do you know about it?
Thanks, Kayda
Posts: 582 | From midwest | Registered: Nov 2006
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SForsgren
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posted
Ozone injections are starting to take the place of cavitation surgeries. I have had a couple of ozone injection for very early stage jaw infection.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Hi Scott, I just got through my 1st visit with Dr.k and he believes my long term and persistant resistance is due to a old root canal I still have. So, I have scheduled to have it taken care of. The ozone shots were mentioned to be done as well. Could you give some firsthand info on how it was done and how it worked for you? I've had most all the other amalgrams out, but have been putting off the hardest part (root canal) due to the cavitation concerns.
Thanks for sharing your experience, JavaBeing
Posts: 208 | From Portland, OR USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Last week I wrote a long email about all of my vast experience with "cavitations" or the clinical term: osteonecrosis, and with actual non-suppurative bone infection in the jaw. (meaning no active puss or swelling on the outside. I would do a search to look up everyone's post on this issue.
Some warnings:
If you go to an oral surgeon to have the tooth removed, tell him you are concerned about bone infection or bone death underneath the tooth. Do not mention cavitation. This is a whole sordid history with this particular term, and for some reason, it really sets off dentists and the medical community. There have been major lawsuits against dentists who aggressively go after 'cavitations' and actually worsened the patient. Some have even advised patients to remove lots of teeth, even alive ones, and remove lots of bone. There are so many implications and risks to this surgery!!
Having said that, I do know some people who had positive results when they had dead bone removed beneath infected teeth. One friend in particular has had to have many surgeries due to osteonecrosis throughout her jaw, and has always had a positive result.
I also think it is much better to have infected root canals removed. And, I would caution about replacing them with implants. I know some people who have gone thru hell and back because of infected implants.
You should also know that there are big risks to having surgery in your jaw bone in particular. The oral cavity is filled with tons of bacteria, and there is no sure fire way once the bone is exposed by surgery to prevent the bacteria from getting in there.
It took me 5 months of IV Vancomycin before the infection in my jaw was resolved, and this is actually typical for any kind of bone infection throughout the body. Infections of the bone are considered just about the most difficult infections to eradicate - aside from maybe Borreliosis along with coinfections!!!!
i'm happy to answer any questions!
Anneke
Posts: 364 | From California | Registered: Sep 2005
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Because I was so desperate to get rid of my bone infection, I ended up pushing one of my docs to prescribe a fairly new form of treatment. Two months after getting big doses of it, a big study came out describing how this treatment actually caused the very problem I was trying to fix. A dr. friend had warned me to be super cautious about new treatments, but I was impatient.
I don't know much at all about injecting ozone into bone, but I would advise you to talk to a lot of people who have had it done, and to do as much research as possible on it. If there is not much out there on results, I WOULD NOT DO IT!! It may come out later that it's harmful to bone.
Also, if you do think you have a bone infection or cavitation, I know of a brilliant dr. with gobs of experience on this issue. I would be happy to email you his name. Just use the message system here to email me privately.
Anneke
Posts: 364 | From California | Registered: Sep 2005
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Wow! I'm really interested in hearing your story about this. I just had a cavitation scan done and it was determined there are two major areas in an upper quadrant that have cavitations. One is above where one wisdom tooth used to be & the other is directly in front. RIght now, I do not have pain or swelling although it shows up on one of my meridians that affect the spleen & also low back pain. I'm told it may or may not affect this problems, but that these teeth are associated with these areas on the meridian.
Ozone injection was recommended. My question is, how does ozone help if the bone, nerve, blood vessel is dead. I could see how it would help following surgery to clean that out afterwards, but I have trouble seeing how it works before.
Also, how do I really know it is not something benign, other than the ultrasound test & biomeridian test that says it is very toxic. I've been sick for years and probably this is a huge tax on my immune system.
I have to be honest that the surgery scares the living daylights out of me. I do very poorly with any kind of surgery anyway & have very unusual complications.
I don't want to open a can of worms, either. Plus, there are no pain medications that I can take without major allergic reactions. So, there are plenty of strikes against me. However, if it must be done, then somehow, it must be done. Also, I have heart problems and have to take antibiotics before any dental work anyway.
Thinking of you being on IV Vancomycin for 5 months really tells how serious this surgery is. Do you still have the long email you wrote that you mentioned.
What else can you tell me?
Thanks, Kayda
Posts: 582 | From midwest | Registered: Nov 2006
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I just had surgery on 4 wisdom teeth cavitations suurgically cleaned out. the Dentist also exrtracted and cleaned out one upper molar and one previously root canaled tooth. The the thread listed above there is a post where I display my toxicology results. Several of the sites were positive for bacterial infections as well.
posted
Amazing post again as I was dealing with this today. Every time I take abx, my top right wisdom tooth, with a root canal in it, hurts and swells.
Hard to explain, but it's as if it comes out a bit and causes tmj pain on my upper right quadrant.
I know underneath is infected....I can feel it and several years ago, it was leaking a horrible fluid. I told my dentist and he refilled it and crowned it.
It's like it wants to explode but can't. So I'm sure the fluid/bacteria is going upward into my system.
I mentioned this to my new dentist and he said, "leave it alone".
I wonder if it's to protect me or the dentist who did this? Guess I won't know until they do the autopsy. Posts: 867 | From PA | Registered: Jan 2006
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SForsgren
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Member # 7686
posted
The ozone injection was a piece of cake. Numbing first. Then drilled a couple of small holes into the jawbone and then injected the ozone with a syringe. That was about it.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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The best dr. in this country hands down re: bone death and bone infection in the jaw and face is an internist in Oakland CA named Dr. Robert David Tufft. He has TONS of experience with hundreds and hundreds of patients. He is especially terrific at diagnosing the problem, and stresses how important it is to diagnose before you go in with surgery. He uses bone scans, MRI or CT's, and panoramic xrays of the jaw. he also tests for blood clotting disorders that may exacerbate or even cause bone death. If you have one, you must be on a thinner before surgery or you may not heal, and the surgery may even lead to further bone death. It's important that a hemotologist monitors this.
Do you remember the test you had to diagnose the cavitation? If it is a "Cavitat", IT IS TOTALLY UNRELIABLE. I would not make any decisions at all based on Cavitat results. I have several friends who had 2 or more Cavitat scans done, and every time the results were completely different. Plus it costs a fortune and is not covered by insurance. If you google Cavitat, you will find all kinds of stuff about it. They have been sued big time.
Having cavitation surgery on wisdom sites is VERY controversial. Some people have gotten sicker after these surgeries. Like I said in another post, going into bone with a drill can CAUSE infection and necrosis.
In the beg. of my journey with bone problems, I became convinced that it would help me if I had a dentist I knew drill a hole from the outside of my gum into the bone underneath, and aspirate (suck material out with a needle), and have it biopsed. Of course, nothing came out with the needle, because it was BONE. What happened was I ran a fever that night of 104 and was very sick the rest of that week. I had to have surgery
My internist had advised me not to do this, but this dentist and I thought it was a good idea, and I figured my internist was behind the times. My point thru it all is you can find just about any dentist to do all kinds of stuff that may not be the best thing to do.
Scott, I'm not judging what you did, I'm just advising caution and trying to prevent someone else from making mistakes I've made.
Anneke
Posts: 364 | From California | Registered: Sep 2005
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Thanks for letting me know my PM box was full. I didn't know that could happen. So, I guess I just need to delete some and then it will be open again.
I am really, really cautious about doing anything. The scan done was with an ultrasound and called a Cavitat Scan. It cost about $200! I had no idea they were so unreliable. One of the tests showed toxicity for jaw area above one tooth was only 4.5 out of 10. But the other area showed toxicity of 9 out of 10 for toxicity. So, this really made me concerned I've heard that you can never get well if this is going...however, I've also heard that going after it can cause many more problems.
I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place.
I've done some reading on the net. One dr. says the ozone doesn't work on dead material & only works after the surgery. I know I cannot handle any surgery right now because I'm waaayy too sick. I barely recovered from surgery last August.
Kayda
[ 14. April 2007, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Kayda ]
Posts: 582 | From midwest | Registered: Nov 2006
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Marnie
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posted
If anyone is on Fosamax, I recommend you read the warnings.
posted
I just had 2 silver fillings removed Thursday. Thursday night severe tooth,jaw, and ear pain. Friday and yesterday, I had less pain but fevers and chills, and diarhea.
Today little pain and still fevers. When my lyme symptoms first started, the pain was in same area of jaw as these 2 fillings were then spread to center head, seizures, and TMJ.
I still have silver fillings to get removed but I think I got the problem area first.
Posts: 290 | From ohio | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
When I was first struck with fatigue, I read all about chelating metals, and decided a remedy might come thru that route. I had a dentist drill out all my old silver fillings and refill them with a composite. My tooth problems began after that. Having big old fillings drilled out and refilled causes trauma to the tooth and may kill it. The problem is exascerbated by clotting disorders, and by dentists injecting the area around the tooth was longer term vasocontrictors that greatly decrease blood flow to the area at a time when it needs blood the most. Always request Lidocaine, and NOT tougher long lasting vasoconstrictors. Dentists don't like to use the old stuff because it takes more pokes and more med.
If you are totally convinced that metals are causing your illness, and you have seen a very experienced and respected doc. who specializes in it, I would not remove them. Any dental trauma should be avoided.
Anneke
Posts: 364 | From California | Registered: Sep 2005
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heiwalove
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posted
okay, this might be a stupid question -- but is a 'cavitation' the same as a cavity? is a TOPAS test the only way to tell if you have toxic cavitations that need to be addressed?
i've never had a root canal, and i've never had any cavities (so, no metal in my mouth). however, i did have all four wisdom teeth removed surgically at the age of 17. all four teeth were impacted.
clairenotes
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posted
Have heard about problems with cavitation surgery -- on the level of nightmarish.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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hiker53
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posted
Heiwalove,
A cavitation is not a cavity. It is an area of emptiness in the jaw bone. Thus that space could potentially be filled with bacteria. However one must remember that most bacteria are helpful and not as many are disease causing. One must remember that our bones are not all solid or the skeleton would be too heavy.
A cavitat machine is not accurate. It can be manipulated by the tester to make it look like you have caviations in the jaw when there aren't any. A good panoramic x-ray would be a better choice to look at the jaw bone. Think about it A cavitat uses ultrasound. Since when it ultrasound used to diagnose bone disorders like fractures or holes? That's what x-rays are for.
I know some may not agree with me, but I will never have the cavitation surgey done. A bone infection could be a nightmare caused by a surgery.
This is strictly my opinion, but I would bypass 99.9% of elective surgeries. Hiker
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 8876 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I will respctfully disagree that Dr. T in Oakland is anywhere near the best in this field. I am thankful for him that I atleast was able to find and diagnose an infection in my jawbone via a SPECT bone scan, but unfortunately he also referred me to an endodontist to get a root canal on the tooth and said that should take care of it. I got the root canal and then for two years it got worse and worse until I finally I had a procedure done in February.
I will 100% vouch for GiGi and tell you that Dr. H out of Nevada is hands down all alone as the best in the country. He is now retired from doing the procedures, but fortunately I was able to use him for diagnostic puproses by reading my pan-x-ray. you all must understand, This is where all the science is. Dr. H saw three infections/cavitations in my scan that Dr. S in columbus, ohio who did my procedure didnt even see. I had to strongly encourage Dr. S to look into all the sites despite him saying he thought they were fine. Sure enough, Dr. H was right on every single site.
The worst site (the root canaled molar metnioned above) was absolutely off the scale EXTREME toxic as judged by ALT Lab.
For those of you wanting miracle results that happen over night, this surgery will dissapoint you. Gigi has posted many times about how long it can take to clear these thioethers and mercaptans out of the body after the source of the toxicity is removed. but for me that is fine. Seeing my toxicology report made me very happy that the tooth was no longer in my body, and that regardless of immediate results is very essential for my long term recovery.
posted
Before I was diagnosed with Lyme, I had a horrible root canal abcess as well as rampant sinus infections.
I couldn't handle the "caine" drugs with norepinephrine (makes pain-killing last longer); I get heart palpitations from it.
Sooo... the oral surgeon performed an apecoectomy (sp.). Drilled through my jaw bone to snip wayward root canal posts and clean abcess. AWful! Painful! novacaine kept wearing off and he couldn't give me any more.
After the whole thing was over, I waited two days and went back and had the whole tooth extracted.
Surgeon said he cleaned out bone infection. Put me on Keflex for 8 days.
Good news: the sinus infection cleared up within 30 minutes of the extraction. I've never had another one since then.
Bad news: I'm missing a molar and can't afford a new bridge tooth. Don't want them to saw down my good ones anyway!
Always worried that the infection might still be lurking (particularly after seeing a "House" episode about a guy with a jaw infection!).
Ya'd think after one year of Lyme antibiotics that it might be okay?
Toothless but...
wiserforit?
Posts: 508 | From Banks of the Hudson | Registered: Jul 2006
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GiGi
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posted
Thought I refrain from commenting on this, except to say that Lidocaine someone mentioned has been proven to be a carcinogen. That research came out in the 90's.
A few years ago I did observe a four hour procedure done to remove cavitations. It's not "drilling holes in the bone". Rather it is going in there and scooping out the bone that has turned to toxic mush; soft as oatmeal mush! it is opening up the old wisdom tooth sites and ladling out from there what looks more like thick chicken soup. I saw it myself and I was told that most cavitations look like this; and so it is cleaned out until the hard healthy bone is reached. I saw the jiggling nerves in there and the extreme care and fine hand that is needed to avoid injury.
The microbes went into retreat and died, and healing began.
The only reason I am sitting here today well and full of energy is because I had that "mush" and the "chicken soup" and all the metals taken out of my mouth. I didn't swell, I never had to use the pain pills that were given to me just in case.
It takes proper preparation and after-care, a competent doctor, and a cooperating positive patient --- . Don't tell me all these nightmarish stories - ! Yes, often the "repair" has to be done in several stages, because patients are not strong enough.
I had several ozone injections a couple of years later when ART testing showed that I still had some thioethers hanging around in the facial/jaw area. These ozone injections are merely an injection into the gum under the jawbone - in about 8 places - with ozone. No bone drilling, etc. whatsoever. Mine was only repeated a couple of times.
But normally, the typical procedure for a suspected gum problem is a series of injections as I described above, repeated ten days in a row.
In the very, very, very early stages it might help to avoid surgical interventions. Most the time however, because none of the root canals and cavitations are causing pain, the situation is overlooked, not caught in time, and is not addressed until it's too late.
You need a doctor who knows the dangers of root canals, is aware of the mess mercury causes to the human body, the jawbone, the brain, and keeps an eye on this, and most of all knows how to diagnose it.
Sadly, the best diagnostician and oral surgeon, C.H., in the country, for that matter in the world, has now retired. I don't blame him a bit. He deserves peace. Can you imagine dealing with Lymies every day? I used to be one of them.
But I also do want to mention my displeasure at ignorant dentists who still insist on doing this type of destructive dental work in the 21st Century ignoring all science. Shame on them.
That was more than I wanted to say.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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clairenotes
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Before learning I had lyme, I consulted with a dentist about cavitation surgery, thinking that might be the cause of my problems, though I was experiencing no dental symptoms.
This dentist, whom I have a lot of trust in for reasons to numerous to explain, said that cavitation surgery was still in experimental stages and that often, the surgeons would encounter problems they did not know what to do with or that there was no way of knowing how deep, to go, etc. My memory is a little fuzzy on the whys and wherefores. But mostly, he felt that the experience and expertise was just not there yet.
This same dentist does recommend placing small amount of ozonated oil on the gums from time to time.
I am glad to hear that your treatment was successful, Gigi. It sounds like this may be an option to pursue, if there are no other easier alternatives or choices. But great care may need to be taken in choosing the oral surgeon.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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I'm very glad you posted on this thread. Thank you! I greatly appreciate you sharing your experience.
I think if a person has that "oatmeal mush" then it's important to get it removed and cleaned.
May I ask a few questions? How was the procedure? Was it painful? You said you didn't need the pain medication afterwards. Did Tylenol work or did you just not need anything? Does it feel like getting a tooth pulled or getting a crown? It sound quite painful, but perhaps it isn't as bad??? I don't know.
You wrote: >>It takes proper preparation and after-care, a competent doctor, and a cooperating positive patient --- . Don't tell me all these nightmarish stories - ! Yes, often the "repair" has to be done in several stages, because patients are not strong enough.
What is the prep & after-care? Vitamins? or something else. Did yours have to be done in more than one stage? The biomeridian scan I had showed two significant cavitations in my upper right quadrant.
>>>I had several ozone injections a couple of years later when ART testing showed that I still had some thioethers hanging around in the facial/jaw area. These ozone injections are merely an injection into the gum under the jawbone - in about 8 places - with ozone. No bone drilling, etc. whatsoever. Mine was only repeated a couple of times.
What are thioethers? Did the ozone have to be repeated? I'm wondering what effect ozone would have on that "oatmeal-type mush"
>>>But normally, the typical procedure for a suspected gum problem is a series of injections as I described above, repeated ten days in a row.
Are these the ozone injections you mentioned? My ND is recommending 4 injections 1.5 weeks apart.
>>Sadly, the best diagnostician and oral surgeon, C.H., in the country, for that matter in the world, has now retired. I don't blame him a bit. He deserves peace. Can you imagine dealing with Lymies every day? I used to be one of them.
Is there someone else that you recommend? If so, would you PM me? I'm not sure my dentist has enough expertise in this and that seems to be the most important thing: to get a dentist with much experience (am I wrong, maybe it is an oral surgeon)
>>>But I also do want to mention my displeasure at ignorant dentists who still insist on doing this type of destructive dental work in the 21st Century ignoring all science. Shame on them.
Are you saying that some dentists attempt this surgery without proper training or are you saying cavitation surgery is bad & that ozone injections are the way to go?
Thanks for answering my questions. I really appreciate it.
Kayda
Posts: 582 | From midwest | Registered: Nov 2006
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