He thinks this is the answer to cure my Lyme and wants to fly me out to Washington state to get the treatment.
When I told him I have to find out more about it and I have to give the abx. a chance(i've been treated for 6 months and feel like crap) he hung up on me!
So-question-does anyone know about this treatment????
I am at my wits end....
(with myself and my wonderful understanding husband)
Laurie
Posts: 256 | From long island, new york | Registered: Feb 2008
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For the record, you don't have to go far away to get it. Chances are, there are apitherapists where you live. Bee venom has bee used in Traditional Chinese Medicine for some time ("bee acupuncture"). I have emailed with people who have gotten great pain relief from it for some conditions.
I ordered a video from the site above which gives a lot of great info. and was pretty convincing, but this was several years ago so I don't know what's on their current materials list.
Posts: 929 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Oct 2007
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for much discussion on this , search archives of this site. Medical absttracts, this site has one citation on this. Dr. Klinghardt, Washington state published an article on it.
ther are many meds., otc, and presctriptive that should not be taken concurrently with bee venom, beta-blockers and Magnesium, for example.
I did this years ago, got some good results, but its NOt curative.
Search medd. abstracts, this site, for 'Mellitin,'and you should pull up one citation.,
Best resource, for information ontheis is the site i gave.
good luck,
-------------------- pingpong Posts: 361 | From At the Pingpong Tournament | Registered: Oct 2007
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bejoy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11129
posted
I used bee venom ointment, called Venex.
You can order it without a prescription from the same supplier that supplies to Dr. K. in WA.
I was going to get bee venom injections, but never needed to, because the ointment worked so well. I needed to use much less than the package suggested.
At first it made my skin itch like a sunburn for about twenty minutes after use, and after a while I stopped reacting to it.
I credit bee venom with being one of the important keys to my recovery.
(I also used many other important treatments, including Penicillin injections (Bicillin), herbs and homeopathics from Deseret Bilogicals.
I don't blame your husband for wanting to find you "the cure." I wish anything related to lyme was that simple.
But when it comes to bee venom, I'm all for it.
I'd like to see more people give bee venom a try, since it worked so very well for me. I've been lyme free for five months now, treatment took less than a year, and I had lyme for 20 plus years.
Have you done a search here on posts regarding bee venom? You'll find some interesting information, suggestions, warnings, results, etc.
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
I know nothing about bee venom. My first thought, however, was what an amazing husband you have that he would fly you to another state for treatment.
I know many people who have wonderful spouses. I'm lucky, too. I know just as many who don't.
I'm sure it drives you crazy and makes you love him more at the same time.
Posts: 129 | From Virginia | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
I've been using bee venom for maybe 8 months now. I instantly saw much less spasms and pain. Rec by Dr K to use every other day then. Now I use it twice a week. He told me he wants me to use it for years.
I would research it and try it if it seems helpful.
Sounds like your husband feels a lot of internal pressure for you to heal. This can be very difficult on a marriage. I hope you both get support.
Posts: 830 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2005
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bejoy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Steelbone - the ointment seemed to reduce inflammation to the muscles in that area.
It caused immediate pain reduction and muscle release for me.
It also caused major herx symptoms, and a need to detox the lymph, which cased muscle spasms. An interesting merry go round.
It caused mild headaches for the fist week, a common side effect.
I'd swear by this stuff, but not alone without other significant antibiotic treatments and herbs with antibiotic properties, and co-infection treatment.
There is research showing that bee venom kills spirochetes. Dr. K seems to believe that the enzymes break down cysts. I think he's probably right, based on my reactions, although I have not been able to find any research to confirm it.
I'd take a trip out to WA if I could, but instead I followed much of Dr. K's protocol on my own.
Laurie, sorry your husband hung up on you. This is your life and your treatment. It's got to feel right to you. I hope he can understand that. There are so many different paths, and you get to choose where you walk.
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
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Cass A
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posted
I have used bee venom ointment from VENEX topically on painful areas, but not every day.
It does inflame the area, then it calms down. The owner of VENEX says that this is how it works--it inflames the area, and the immune system comes running to fix it.
I noticed a herx some of the time. I was also on an herbal Babesia formula.
I'm doing other things now--herbal formula, and currently Mepron/Zith for Babesia.
Personally, I would try the topical ointment first. some people get very hefty reactions just from that!!
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
i know a case of a woman near here (i don't meet her directly) that cured all the symptoms of a bb resistent to a month of ceft and long doxi; her husband mantain the bees in the refrigerator; in my times of entomologist see that bees resist a lot of time in refrigerator a 4�C, any apicultor can give you some bees in a little box, give them water with sugar, you can manage them just out of refrigerator, they are cold; the first times is better with a specialist because of allergy alert
Posts: 108 | From spain eur | Registered: Apr 2005
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tickled1
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posted
What about actually getting stung by bees? Would that work at all? My father-in-law keeps bees and sells honey.
Posts: 2541 | From Northeast | Registered: Jan 2008
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Cass A
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posted
As for being stung by bees, that is how the idea first came up.
Buhner has a whole chapter of Healing Lyme that's not in the published book but is available on the internet about bee venom and using bee stings, etc. I think you can access this via Planet Thrive, but I don't remember for sure.
Dr. Klinghart's most recent version of "Beyond Antibiotics" has some data about bee venom also, as I recall. It's the 2007 edition.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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The harder you work the luckier you get! Posts: 965 | From Nebraska Cornhuskers fan in Massachusetts | Registered: Dec 2007
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bejoy
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posted
Bee sting therapy is popular among MS patients (A common lyme misdiagnosis).
There may be quite a bit of research on bee venom and MS, although I have not googled.
I have been told by my kinesiologist that the bee venom products were helping with the mild autoimmune condition I was dealing with due to lyme.
(Some people get breakdown of the myelin coating on the nerves from lyme gone autoimmune. I believe B12 injections are helping me build the coating back up.)
Many people do use live bees.
Pesonally I prefer the ointment. It hurts much less, and the way they harvest it doesn't kill the bees. Venom for injections from a reputable supplier also doesn't kill the bees.
Here's the Buhner article on Bee venom treatment for lyme:
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
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bejoy
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posted
One more note on my experience with Venex ointment. I dosed it with the help of my kinesiologist.
I needed to take much less than the package recommended.
It is dosed by the inch, as you squeeze it out of the tube. I needed 1/4 inch once a day in the morning.
Too late in the evening, and it kept me awake.
One tube costs about 25.00 plush shipping.
I used only about half a tube. Your experience might be different.
How are you doing, Laurie? I hope some of this info will help you decide whether or not bee venom and or Dr. K is something you want to try.
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
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sparkle7
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posted
Sounds like an interesting piece to the Lyme puzzle... I think I would try the ointment first. I'm kind of afraid of live bees even though I really like them (& honey).
That's amazing that they can kill spirochetes. Maybe if we rub it into painful areas it will kill off some of the spirochetes in the collagen & fascia. Sounds really helpful. I'm going to try to order some soon.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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tickled1
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posted
What kind of bee does the venom have to come from?
Posts: 2541 | From Northeast | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by hokie: I know nothing about bee venom. My first thought, however, was what an amazing husband you have that he would fly you to another state for treatment. -----------------
I'm sure it drives you crazy and makes you love him more at the same time.
I think it's very sweet of him to want you to do this... but do tell him that if it was the cure-all this board wouldn't be here.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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I am going to look into the bee venom along with the antibiotics but want to see if there is a place in my area of the country.
My nerve pain is quite unbearable and I will try anything to get rid of it.
I just had by 11th IVIG treatment today. I don't see any improvements from them.
Actually in terrible pain now. Maybe that is a good sign????
GTG to sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep!
Thanks again! Laurie
Posts: 256 | From long island, new york | Registered: Feb 2008
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heiwalove
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posted
i just ordered the venex ointment. the guy i spoke to was very nice, but he told me the ointment doesn't help neuro symptoms or kill borrelia (he insisted i needed the injectable) -- however, bejoy has reported otherwise, so i just smiled and nodded and told him i'd try it anyway.
How has the bee venom helped you??? Do you think it is worth while??
Thanks!
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
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randibear
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posted
blast i can't remember, but i'm allergic to bees or rather asps, a bee like creature...
so could i take those beealive capsules from the queen do you think?
i mean i swell up, can't breathe and start getting red streaks out from the bee sting injection site.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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djf2005
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posted
can anyone update on their use of venex or live bees?
i just purchased some venex and have been looking into live bees but it seems they are nearly impossible to get now, being they are nearly extinct all of a sudden.
anyone know where to get them as well?
thanks
derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
I've only been using Venex cream for less than a month, and I'm getting amazing results!
Bejoy, it's interesting that you could get such good results using such a small amount of cream. I wonder, how often did you apply it, and where did you apply it, because 1/4 inch wouldn't cover much area?
Nonetheless, I've had many exciting things happen as a result of using Venex cream. It made the pain on the soles of my feet go away almost immediately. Then as I was massaging it into the sole of my left foot, I realized that a "callous" on my foot was actually a lump. I'd read posts from others on this site who'd asked about "lumps" before, but never realized that I had one myself until last week.
It's interesting to me that no one has added these lumps to the list of signs and symptoms of Lyme disease, because they are essentially the same thing as "gummas" in tertiary syphilis. In reading about gummas in descriptions of syphilis, it says that they are benign, but my experience with my solitary lump would lead me to think otherwise, because one day I tried applying some Venex just to the lump, and I started herxing shortly afterwards. This makes me suspect that these lumps could be a source of "seeding" Lyme disease if they're not eliminated, even though histological studies of syphilis gummas say that spirochetes are rarely found in them.
Now after a little over a week of applying the cream to my foot, the lump has almost disappeared. Some people would consider my story anecdotal, but I don't, since I'm actually seeing it with my own eyes.
Anyway, I've used the cream extensively over my body, and have experienced strong herxes followed by periods of good feeling. I usually only apply it near bedtime, because my herx causes my eyes to close up. However, last night, before I went to sleep, I realized that I could open my left eye (the worst affected eye) not too long after it had closed up, a sign that my herx was diminishing in severity.
When I woke up this morning, I felt great, and I stayed feeling great all day, with only a very brief period this afternoon when I started feeling a little herxy. My energy was great, and I had virtually no brain fog/headache except for that small period in the afternoon. In fact I still feel great, and that's in spite of taking a lot of herbs and antibiotics in addition to the Venex, which had been making me herx after taking them in addition to the herx from the Venex.
I failed to mention earlier that I also bought some bee venom eye drops from www.dancingbeeacres.com and have been instilling them in my eyes for about the past week or so. I've had a lot of eye issues, and when I learned about the eye drops decided to give them a try. It's also making me herx (closes my eyes up), so my eye opening last night was significant because I'd applied both the Venex topically, and the eye drops. Some evenings, I wouldn't do both, just to keep the ensuing herx a little milder.
I spoke w/the man @ Venex today for over an hour, and as some of you mentioned above, he doesn't seem to realize that the ointment is killing bugs. He also said that he doesn't believe that bee venom is a "silver bullet" for curing Lyme disease. I'm not sure of that yet. He may be right. But the experience I'm having is that the topical application of the ointment is probably almost, if not more, effective as the injections.
I chose not to do the injections for the same reasons as the rest of you. They seem a little scary, unpleasant, and the ointment seemed like an easy way to see what bee venom would do.
My feeling is that I'm so infested with Bb & co's that it's in every cell of my body, skin included, so my best chance of eradicating it is to do whatever I can to apply it to every square inch of my body.
That means that I have broken his instructions of not applying the ointment to the face. I told him this today, and he asked, "Didn't you read the instructions?" I said yes, but I believe I have bugs in the skin on my face also, so I have to treat it as well.
My experience with applying it to my face, and I only started by trying out a small area, was that the burning sensation might have been a little stronger there, but that sensation goes away after a while also, but oddly enough, after the burning stopped, my skin felt smoother...
I asked him why we shouldn't apply it to the face and he said, besides not wanting to get it in the eyes, that it makes the skin red. But that's only a temporary reaction, and I told him that I've only been applying it to my face at bedtime, so by the time I wake up, my face looks fine.
Now some of you may not be as adventurous as I am in this respect, but I'm just following my gut.
I ended up talking with him for over an hour. Some of you may have had the same thing. He's very talkative.
I asked him about applying it all over myself, as I'd been doing, and he said I shouldn't be doing that, and reiterated the instructions not to use more than 4" of the ointment at a time. However, his 4" goes a long way. He said to use more would risk experiencing a drop in blood pressure, fyi.
Well, I just accidentally deleted the last paragraph that I'd typed, it's getting late, for some reason, the "undo typing" isn't available under "edit" and I don't remember what I'd said, so I think I'll end this post here.
But if you're not allergic to bee stings, I'd highly recommend your giving it a try.
Patti
[ 11. October 2008, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: psano2 ]
Posts: 975 | From California | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
I just wanted to add that I've also instilled the eye drops into each of my ears a couple of times, one being last night after my eyes started opening up, and I herxed again (my eyes started closing back up). This herx I have is very strong and distinctive, so I know it was from this. Besides the herx was located lower on the side of my face than experienced with only the eye drops.
Posts: 975 | From California | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
I just remembered what my deleted paragraph was about. I asked him what he'd recommend for my sore throat. My throat sometimes gets a soreness that reduces my voice to a whisper. It's not a scratchy sore throat like with a cold. I asked about lozenges and he said that most of those types of products on the market aren't of very good quality and suggested chewing on raw propolis, but I just read the other thread where Sparkle talks about honey w/propolis and bee venom and that seems like a more appealing way to go, so I've ordered some.
Posts: 975 | From California | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
I have tried the bee cream, it did nothing for me in any area. I just got a script for Venex 20, from the guy who supplies Dr K. My local doc took neural therapy treatments from Dr K yrs ago and she also used BVT on her patients (back in the day)
She is going to help me get started. I heard from one Lyme woman who claims live bees put her lyme in remission and took away her pain. She only stings as needed now. After 9 yrs of abx, I am ready to try this.
Posts: 315 | From USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Littlesprout That's very interesting. It just shows how differently all of us can respond to the same things. Was the bee cream Venex? The one I use is made by the same man that supplies Dr K.
I'm also wondering about what kind of antibiotic therapy you were on for 7 years. I've been on abx for over 3 yrs now, and am afraid I'm on the same track as you, with no real end in sight for abx therapy. Did you ever do IV antibiotics?
I've never gotten antibiotics, but I think if for some reason, bee venom doesn't work out for me and I try another new thing, it will be the biophoton treatment.
Posts: 975 | From California | Registered: Apr 2007
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clairenotes
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posted
I agree that the 'lumps' should be added to the list of signs and symptoms of lyme disease as mentioned earlier, and glad someone else noticed this.
I first heard about this about three years ago from another member, Farah, who wrote a lot about her LD experiences. She described the lumps as similar to bubble wrap, which she could pop, so to speak, with far infrared heat/lamp.
The bee venom with its heat inducing properties might be having the same effect.
We want to use it on my daughter's spine where she feels the most pain, if we can determine that she is not allergic to it, and hoping for the best.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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MariaA
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posted
If you're trying to do this with live bees and you're absolutely sure you're not allergic to bee venom, you can find a sympathetic beekeeper through your local beekeepers' association. Those are in most counties and many, many cities. Just google your city or county and 'beekeepers association', there's something through the county agricultural extension agent usually.
Most beekeepers are familiar with the 'folk' use of venom for arthritis reduction (not sure if this actually works) so they won't look at you like you're a crazy bee murderer for wanting to try this.
Be aware that some people who are borderline severely allergic can develop more serious response the more often they get stung. Doing this with professional help seems important. An allergist may be able to work with you if they're at all open to 'integrative' medicine.
As far as allergic reactions- stings give everyone a local reaction that hurts, swells, and itches for a day or two. It's not the same as the deadly anaphylactic shock reaction that only a few people who we call 'allergic' get. Stings on hands, feet, and head are worse than those on other body parts- hands swell horribly in many cases even with those of us who aren't very strongly 'allergic' otherwise. You may also feel an unpleasant adrenaline rush for a few hours.
I think all of this isn't anywhere near as bad with the medications that people are describing above. My only experience is getting stung the 'natural' way as a beekeeper, not when I was planning for it.
For live bees, you pick them up by the wings with a pair of tweezers and apply to the area to be stung.
It can hurt less if you've iced the area first. Beekeepers sometimes do this to develop desensitization (though it can go the other way in allergic individuals!!!!!). Using benadryl reduces the allergic response, I'm not sure what that would do to the immune response we're trying to cause here.
MariaA
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posted
also, you'll read in all the 'live bee' literature about having an Epi-Pen on hand in case of emergency: it's spring-loaded syringe filled with medication which helps stop severe anaphylactic reactions (ie for those severely allergic to bee venom, severe peanut allergies, etc). The victim can stab themselves in the thigh with the EpiPen if they're having a severe anaphylactic reaction and it injects the medication automatically.
Any doctor will write you a prescription for it if you tell him you think you might be allergic to bee venom. I think the Epi Pen lasts for several years in storage and it's a good first aid kit item anyway.
If for some reason you feel you can't be honest with your doctor about why you want an EpiPen, tell him that your neighbors just got bees (unlikely in winter) and you're worried, or that your face has been swelling more and more every time you get stung and you think you're developing serious sensitivity to venom, or something like that.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
posted
I got stung by a black wasp on the forehead no less back in June. It hurt like you know what, and a few minutes later I got this horrible rush through my body and it felt as though I couldn't breathe. I swear I thought I was going to die right there. I even called 911.
I have been stung over the years and have never had a reaction like that. I have had breathing, mucous problems, etc ( problems believe it or not that I have actually never had before...and we all know there a lot of diff symptoms) ever since this bee sting. I feel stupid sometimes, but I can't help but wonder if it somehow has caused these new problems.
I know it sounds crazy, but I would love to know if anyone else ever had this happen. I literally felt like my insides were paralyzed. Very scary.
Posts: 117 | From Winston Salem NC | Registered: Sep 2008
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i will put an order in for venex bee venom ointment for my gf. Will let you know how she got on...
Sounds like bb muscle and arthritic pain can be helped but has anyone had any success using bee venom for the co-infections and crushing fatigue?
Posts: 9 | From NJ | Registered: Dec 2008
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bpeck
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posted
Hello: I ive in Vermont, and as it happens, I was sick ( it was Lyme but no one knew ) and I live 45 minutes from where Charlie Mraz lived (he's the one who wrote the book on Bee Venom Therapy (BVT).
In 1988 I had about 1000 stings over the course of about 16 months under his direction.
You can only use honey bees (their venom is different form other bees) and You have to figure out your dose (how many stings per day) and potency (how long to leave the stinger in) for your body weight.
I had bees at my house for a time so I didn't have to travel to get them.
Although it didn't cure me- it sure made me better for a while. Remember- I didn't know what I had, and probably had a trememdous population of Lyme bacteria.
I think the BTV jerked my immune system into action and definitely helped my illness.
I did BVT 2 more tines in the future for a period of time after that- but I was slowly going downhill.
It wasn't the the magic bullet for me, but it helped.
posted
Does anyone know if this treatment is contraindicated for someone who is allergic to bee-stings? My daughter has had bad reactions the few times she has been stung.
Is this something different? Is the venom processed in a some different way with this treatment, or is it basically the same as being stung? Also, would she be allergic to the cream? Thanks!
Posts: 371 | From CT | Registered: Jun 2008
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If you are unsure and want to try it, you should get an Epipen to use in case of having an anaphylactic reaction, or start it with the presence of a physician/RN.
Posts: 975 | From California | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
We have just received the bee venom ointment and were all ready to try it out... however we noticed beta blockers mentioned as a contradicting drug.
Has anyone had adverse reactions to bee venom if using a low dose of beta blockers?
Posts: 9 | From NJ | Registered: Dec 2008
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bluelyme
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posted
Bump ...thanks lymenet...
-------------------- Blue Posts: 1539 | From southwest | Registered: Dec 2015
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
there are bee venom ointments that help inflammation. I used the one sold by Dr. K's institute in the past.
I think they are also good after a tick bite, to rub on the tick bite, I mean.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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me
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posted
Are bee venom injections as effective? If not, can they effective? If so, where can I get them?
Posts: 1431 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2015
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bluelyme
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posted
Beevenom.com. ...its called venex...i heard live bees are better...you mix it with procaine and you need script faxed etc etc
-------------------- Blue Posts: 1539 | From southwest | Registered: Dec 2015
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me
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posted
Thanks, bluelyme. So bee venom still works, but it's not as effective?
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bluelyme
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posted
Ordered some venex 20 ..have yet to try it .i have been doing live stings. .it was a ms patient that said live stings have something about them . 26 different aminos and peptides..dont clean area with alcohol ...m simics at beevenom.com says his product is consistent year round but i wonder if procaine messes with it...
-------------------- Blue Posts: 1539 | From southwest | Registered: Dec 2015
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me
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posted
Thank you
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Brussels
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posted
I had used bee venon homeopathic, ingested, recommended by my lyme doc. It is called Apisininum, I used in D6, I think....
It's basically diluted bee venon, very inexpensive and you can reach a similar effect. I remember herxing with it, but I don't remember details as I took it long ago. I know my lyme doc still uses it with his patients.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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"Illnesses, hover constantly above us, their seed blown by the winds, but they do not set in the terrain unless the terrain is ready to receive them."---Claude Bernard. Posts: 131 | From US | Registered: Dec 2006
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sparkle7
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posted
You can also get bee venom with manuka honey from New Zealand. I tried it but it didn't help me. I'm not 100% sure I have Lyme, though.
It may work differently when it goes through the digestive system. It's an interesting product but I don't think it's a cure all.
I heard that the topical cream is helpful for pain. I haven't tried it. I have some of the honey leftover. Maybe I'll make up a cream with it...?
PS - In vitro (in a dish) is very different than in vivo (in the body)...
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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bluelyme
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posted
You can bees in a box from ferris apitherary....sparkle have you done igenix or viewd blood via microscopy? ..manuka is made from trees like tea tree thus the medicinal properties..is great topically..
-------------------- Blue Posts: 1539 | From southwest | Registered: Dec 2015
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sparkle7
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Member # 10397
posted
Yes, I had the igenix test... It was right on the boarderline. My doctor said I had Lyme but I don't know. I tried abx for 9 months and it didn't do anything. I didn't herx either. The abx just started tearing up my intestinal tract.
I tried alot of things. What helped me the most were anti-parasite herbal treatments. It would be nice to be retested but good doctors are hard to come by. It's expensive and not very conclusive.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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