Bugg
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8095
posted
Hey guys--
As I've been posting here lately, I've slowly started (a few days) with glutathione cream. I then switched to just three days of NAC (600mg a day). I am now sick as a dog with toxins. I literally feel like I'm going to throw-up every two seconds and my head is swimming/dizzy....I haven't even taken the NAC for three days now and I still feel so sick/poisoned...
I'm taking two charcoal caps a day and trying the infrared sauna (just did twenty minutes this morning)..
I am absolutely shocked (don't know why I should be) by the amount of reaction I've had to just a few days of the cream glutathione and then the NAC....I would have thought detoxifiers would make you feel better...I feel like I'm getting the toxins out in my body but they are just staying there....
Any suggestions on the best way to eliminate this stuff from my body (besides exercise, charcoal, and the sauna)??? Anyone else have a similar "toxic dump" from NAC or glutathione?
Thanks so much for any ideas...
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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First, check the brand and the packaging. Was it safety-sealed. Go on line and look up the manufacturer's label. Does yours match that exactly? It's always good to be sure anything we take is the original. There are some counterfeit products out there and they are pretty slick.
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Some do have reactions that can be explained below.
How hot was the sauna? How much exercise are you taking about? (Non-aerobic is what Dr. B advises and never two days in a row; not aerobic.)
All that can push the liver even more.
And, if you have trouble with processing sulfur metabolites (if that is the correct term), NAC can be harder on you.
Have you been assessed for Cpn (Chlamydia Pneumonia)?
I usually have problems with anything strong but can easily take three 600 mg of NAC a day . . . but that is the only part of the Cpn protocol that I can do (can't tolerate the Rx at all).
For those with strong reactions, Cpn may be involved as NAC directly affects Cpn and can cause a herx of a sort, itself.
You're asking what 'symptoms' to look for and I can't give you much more than disease names. It's become evident to us that cpn infection manifests itself differently, depending on the sites it colonizes and your genetic predisposition to weakness in certain areas.
If you have low iron, low D levels, extreme fatigue, neurological issues, IBS, high blood pressure, MS, chronic fatigue, gastro issues, rheumatoid arthritis, possibly lupus, rosacea... and I'm sure I'm missing some others...cpn is a likely culprit. (Though it may not be the only one. You're already seeing mycoplasma may be a co-infection in some people.)
Most of us (early patients) treated empirically for cpn. We couldn't find consistently good testing sites, so we went on symptoms and logic. A good test is to take N Acetyl Cysteine, which is great for liver support and shouldn't show any kind of reaction in a 'healthy' person.
If you take it and get what we call 'NAC flu', you can probably be reassured you have a cpn infection and should try the Vanderbilt or Wheldon protocol.
NAC flu is basically a 'flu-like' reaction to NAC. I believe they come in 600mg capsules and you start with one capsule.(I routinely take 2400mg/daily, and will for the rest of my life, as it will inhibit any future cpn infection.)
It can be as mild as a runny nose, to fluctuating body temps, to tinnitus, to a feeling the 'flu is coming on' (that body ache, back of the calves weakness, headachey, ear ache thing).
These would not be normal reactions to taking NAC, which is pretty benign. Sinus involvement or lung congestion or the flu-like reactions after taking NAC are telltale signs. I had a constantly runny nose, mild inner ear pressure and a fever-like feeling, but no fever. It can last from a few days to a few weeks, once you take NAC consistently.
I'd say, if you take one without response, then take two the next day, and so on. If no reaction to four of them (2400mg), maybe there's no cpn. My view was, the science is so sound on cpn, although there was little of it when I started antibiotics in 2005, I would have done the Wheldon protocol regardless.
Will check our board for testing facilities. Only recently has anyone even recommended any, as they've been so notoriously unreliable. I believe the University of Madison or University of Wisconsin at Madison has a lab, but I don't know if they test patients or just do research.
By the way, everyone - pick up a copy of The Potbelly Syndrome. It clearly outlines the role cpn plays in a number of illnesses, including high blood pressure, diabetes, weight gain, etc.
I read it just before I was diagnosed and sort of set it aside as 'interesting' until I got the MS diagnosis and went back and devoured the book. The author, Russ Farris, posts over on cpnhelp occasionally.
(MacKintosh) -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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NAC (N-Acetyl-Cysteine)
This, from a protocol for Chlamydia Pneumonia (Cpn) which is a similar chronic stealth infection. This treatment protocol is also similar to that of chronic lyme.
This is what one of the protocol authors says about the power of NAC to help protet the liver:
. . . "Surprisingly, the only anti-chlamydial agent that did not cause hepatitis in some patients was NAC. In fact, NAC is recognized as being protective.
See attached references at link.
My conclusion is that NAC should be the first agent in an anti-chlamydial regimen and should be a constant part of the therapy for this protective effect, not to mention it's effect against elementary bodies.
Jill E.
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9121
posted
I can't take NAC at all. It makes me feel really sick in tiny doses. I react to almost anything that detoxifies me in even tiny doses. My methylation cycle is abnormal but I haven't started the protocol yet.
I know that going into a sauna is supposed to pull the toxins out through the skin, thus reducing the burden on the liver. But going into a sauna makes me feel like poisons are dumping into my blood stream.
I think the charcoal is a great idea - anything like that you can tolerate, such as charcoal, cholestyramine, etc.
NAC at high, pharmaceutical doses (usually considered 800 mg/day) can mobilize metals. A nutritionist showed me a study from Doctors Data Lab warning about that because I was self-medicating with NAC and ALA for my neuropathy.
Do you have anything to bind to metals? I can't tolerate chlorella but lots of people use that.
Jill
-------------------- If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me? Posts: 1773 | From San Diego | Registered: Apr 2006
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TerryK
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Member # 8552
posted
Keebler has given you some good info and advice.
When I first started to take steps to detox I made myself very sick. At the time, I was following my doctors instructions. I had no idea one could get that sick from detoxifying. I was on the couch for a week and prior to that I was in pretty good shape. Like you, I was really shocked at how sick it made me feel.
That was decades before I knew I had undiagnosed lyme and all these other infections coupled with detox issues. Didn't know much then about detoxification but that really woke me up and I started researching detoxification methods.
Glutathione is a strong detoxifier. It can cause reactions. Also, as Keeb said, sulfur could be an issue. Both glutathione and NAC are sulfur bearing supplements.
I would suggest starting with one detox step at a time. The sauna alone or NAC alone or glutathione alone. As you tolerate one, add another in if you feel it is appropriate for your specific goals.
I'd start slower with the sauna - less time. Is this a FIR sauna? Are you showering immediately after? Are you replacing electrolytes and fluids after the sauna?
2 caps of charcoal isn't very much if they are the normal caps of around 560 mg. You may want to do some research and increase the dose. Be sure to take it far away from other supplements, meds, food.
Exactly what are your goals with detox? Are you working on biotoxins or just trying to provide general support for your liver or?
Terry
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Hoosiers51
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posted
Could you be sensitive to sulfur? I think I heard that people that don't handle sulfur-containing foods (or food that have something to do with sulfur) also do not handle NAC well.
I was "muscle tested" for NAC and it was a definite "no." My chiropractor said maybe I have sulfur issues.
I could be wrong on this, but I am just remembering this to the best of my ability. Maybe it is an area to look into.
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
Have you had phase 1 & 2 of liver detoxification checked? If phase 2 is not clearing you will never be able to detox anything properly.
It's the first and most important step before beginning NAC or any kind of serious detox protocol.
Why were you taking NAC, for metals? All of this stuff MUST be done under the care of a knowledgeable practitioner. Just because you can buy these supplements OTC doesn't mean they can't produce serious after affects.
I can't really give any suggestions for the situation you are in now because I don't know if you have tested positive for heavy metal toxicity, but few don't nor do I know what other things you are taking. But if you mobilized metals and your body can't clear them you will feel like a toxic waste dump.
Bugg
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8095
posted
Thank you so very much to all of you kind people who have responded...I really appreciate the thought behind each response....
To answer some of your questions:
1) I don't have sulphur sensitivities 2) I've been tested using very sophisticated metals testing through my LLMD and this is not an issue for me (don't have any amalgams either).... 3) I've repeatedly tested negative for CPN.....I've read the info on the CPN site as well that states that only those with CPN will get a flu-like response to NAC. I find that difficult to believe since NAC itself is a detoxifier...there's ample evidence in the medical literature that shows it mobilizes toxins...lyme patients are loaded with toxins and many react adversely to NAC...In my humble opinion, I doubt all lyme patients have active CPN (I realize a few do)...Keebler, thanks so much for all of the research you provide to people on this site...you're wonderful...
4) Yes, it's a far infrared sauna and I just used it once today because I was feeling "so poisoned"...it actually seemed to help a bit...
6) My goal with doing the glutathione and the NAC is to i) raise my glutathione levels intracellulary and extracellularly and ii) try to detox....
Jill-How do I have my methylation pathway tested?
Abxnomore--How do I have my phase 1&2 of my liver pathway tested?
Terry--what improvements did you see from your detoxing? How long did it take?
..I think I'm just really overloaded (poisoned) with the toxins...
I'm going to slow down and just intermittently do the glutathione....then also slowly add in the infrared sauna....No NAC for awhile....I'll increase the charcoal and see if that helps...
Thanks so much for your caring and thoughtful responses.....Be well
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
For what it may be worth (or not), Paul Cheney, M.D. in his 2006 DVD presentation on Chronic Fatigue Patients and heart related issues strongly advises against using NAC.
Dr. Cheney states that NAC is such a strong mobilizer of toxins that in patients with chronic illness it can over mobilize toxic metals. He states there is a very dangerous risk of over mobilized toxic metals resettling in the brain.
According to Cheney, there have been suicides that were linked to NAC and over mobilized metals.
The presentation is titled "The Heart of The Matter" and available on DVD on the Dallas Ft Worth CFIDS website. It is a 3 hr presentation on Cheney's research theory about CFS.
While this DVD does not mention Lyme Disease, it should be noted that Dr. Cheney patients say he has a working theory about Lyme Disease. I have never heard exactly what it is though. Wondering if anyone else has more info on that?
Not sure why the NAC suicide risks aren't more talked about as Cheney was forthright and emphatic that doctors specializing in chronic illness are well aware of its risks. Cheney says he flat won't use it. That was enough to scare me away from considering it.
But, it should also be noted that through evolving research theories that Cheney also switch hits theories sometimes as well.
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Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
I don't think being non-allergic to sulfa in meds means that you are processing it okay. It is a little bit more of a delicate line than that. You can be sulfur sensitive and not know it unless you have had it checked out with urine testing (that is my understanding. It is on my list of things to do).
Just in case that is what you meant when you said you aren't sensitive to sulfur.
Just wanted to clarify. Whatever it is, good luck!
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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Bugg,
thanks for your answers. we all learn from your sharing details and I hope you feel better soon. You know, with the far infrared sauna, you may not need too many other things. That's pretty powerful all by itself, with good nutrition.
---
jam,
thanks so much for that information. I learn more each day.
That video to which you refer is somewhere in the thread below. I've suggested that often but am embarrassed to say I've never watched more than a few minutes of it. If I could lie down near my computer, I would. He and the Dallas/Ft. Worth CFIDS group are quite generous to have put all 3 hours on the web.
I just have a quick minute right now, but will share what has worked the best re: detox for my husband. He used to feel like a "toxic waste dump" (his words) in the morning, and it would take that feeling hours to clear.
LLMD suggested chlorella at bedtime, and Argiletz green clay (1 tsp. dissolved in 1 cup of water) in the morning. It has really worked to get him cleared out much faster. I give most of the credit to the clay (may need to use some Mg to keep other things moving...).
Anyway, this may be something to ask your LLMD about.
I would second those who are suggesting sulfur testing, too. A while back, LLMD suggested my husband do a preliminary version of this by using sulfate test strips (pee on them and see how many squares change color, then check it against a key that is enclosed). It's like a screening to see if it may be worthwhile to get more in-depth testing. I'm sorry, I can't remember where we ordered them, but maybe someone else here knows...or else, I can dig through the old invoices, if you'd like--happy to.
Of course, my other thought, like others, is metals--but it sounds like you've ruled that out.
The FIR sauna is great detox too--just build up time slowly. Husband's LLMD had him start with 10 minutes after onset of sweating, and go up from there.
I hope this dissipates soon!
Hugs, Viva
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Bugg
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8095
posted
Thanks so much for all of your great ideas...
Since I'm trying to raise my glutathione levels, I'm going to be looking into the glutathione/ATP injections soon....ugh...my poor bum....Right now, I'm just going to stick with the cream and ditch the NAC....
I just hope the cream is enough to raise the intracellular levels and not just the extracellular levels of glutathione....
Anyone know of a good glutathione test that measures your intracellular levels??
Thanks so much...
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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While the low heat sauna is very helpful to move toxins out . . . if you ditch the NAC and you are on abx, be sure to have another liver protective supplement such as milk thistle or another. The liver must have specific protection when on abx.
While, technically, NAC is one of the best protectors in that regard, when there are problems, there are certainly others that can be employed.
. . . Individual variations in our cytochrome P40 enzymes help to demystify why there are so many variations in how we respond to drugs and herbs. . . .
lymeHerx001
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6215
posted
Im in the same camp.
NAC makes me very sick.
Realize that it also releases mercury from the gut and brings it into the brain.
That alone can make you sick. Therefore I stay aways from NAC!
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lymeHerx001
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Member # 6215
posted
Keebler, I just had a revalation.
My homeopathic kinesiologist said that I tested postivie for Chlamydia Pneumonia in his energy testing.
Maybee thats why NAC makes me so sick?
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lymetwister
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Member # 19590
posted
I have a theory that I've seen others post, but I think it is relevant to restate:
I believe that if your detox pathways are "clogged" or "sluggish", detoxifying agents such as NAC, Glutathione, etc. can actually cause more harm than good.
I just started a thread where I believe I'm Herxing hard from using the 10,000 detox frequency for Rife machines.
While I'm not killing anything on these frequencies, I do believe I'm moving toxins along with no place to go.
I had a HIDA scan last year and was told I have a fatty liver. This may play a part in my detox problems.
Just food for thought. I'm sure many won't agree, but just my theory based on others posts.
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Jill E.
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Member # 9121
posted
The methylation cycle test is from Vitamin Diagnostics Lab, New Jersey, 732-589-7773 (hope this phone number is right - it's hard to read on the photocopy of the results I have). It is a blood test - get the kit from the lab or your Lyme doc, have blood drawn, they do the results.
There is a protocol that came out of the autism workd via Dr. Amy Yasko, then a simplified version was developed by a chronic fatigue syndrome researcher.
Many people feel worse on the protocol for a while because as the methylation block is lifted, toxins are released.
I'm holding off doing it right now because I'm feeling so lousy due to other reasons.
Jill
-------------------- If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me? Posts: 1773 | From San Diego | Registered: Apr 2006
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SForsgren
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posted
Sounds like you are either sensitive to glutathione which many with Lyme are. Or, the NAC may have redistributed metals from the gut into other areas such as the brain, etc.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
Bugg,
Like you, I was so toxic initially, even an epsom salt bath hurt. I have been through 4 yrs of slooooow detox under the care of a very knowledgeable doctor.
Today, we still detox but I have been painfree, symptom free for a long time now.
Here is all I have done
1-Detoxifying diet. Initially it was all I could tolerate and it made a big difference.
2-IVs of glutathione. Excellent stuff and far superior to any other form
3-NAC 600mg initially knocked me on my butt, but I now take 1200mg daily.
Both C and Mag are to be increased in dose until bowel tolerance. I never found bowel tolerance until now. I am finally unable to handle so much of each. A sure sign I am getting well.
8-Vit D3. Extremely good for you and detoxifying
Most all the vitamins and minerals aid the body in detoxification. Cruciferous vegetables raise the body's glutathione levels naturally and never hurt!
That is why fruits and vegetables are so necessary to our good health.
Even though I battled yeast like everyone else, I never stopped eating fruit. My yeast cleared up and has never returned.
I felt fruit offered too much good to worry about the sugar content, although I did stick to low sugar fruits which are all the berries and cherries. I eat lots of apples.
I do splurge and buy only organic berries, cherries. Sometimes I get conventional apples and wash them really good but they never taste as good.
9-ACZ Nano My doctor absolutely swears by this one. It is a form of zeolite that will NOT drop the heavy metal on its way out the body.
BTW, Buggs, there is no way you do not have some metal toxicity. Everyone does. We are exposed every day to metals through pesticides, exhaust fumes, batteries, cosmetics, soaps, deoderants, shampoos.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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Bugg
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8095
posted
Thank you so very much to everyone who took the time to help....You guys are wonderful and I really appreciate the information you've provided...
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