posted
i am going for a second opinion to a doctor in nj. dr f in northern nj. her office staff was very matter of factly on the phone and it all seemed about the money.
the inital consult was 750.00 and the office blood work was over 300.00 and that was just for taking the blood.
the labs she uses is stoney brook and mdl(already tested negative there once. (at my insurance covers the labs)
also my appointment isn't until oct. and if i cancel after 72 hours they will charge my credit card the 750.
she is supposed to be the bestin the state but this is giving me doubts.
-------------------- rjf Posts: 62 | From pt pleasant nj | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
This is normal. They ain't cheap for sure. It blew my mind and still does at times. It's all business. It comes down to there are a handful of them and endless sick patients needing help. Also, a high-risk business atmosphere. As said in the UOS video, you'll pay ANYTHING to try to get your health back.
It's a personal decision if you're feeling bad enough to pay any price. Because that's what it ultimately comes down to. No money-back guarantees are offered, no assurance of renewed health, etc.
The best thing is to research, research, research. Make sure you have ruled out everything possible and go from there. It's the best we can do unfortunately. Other factors need to be considered like are you losing work time, missing out on quality of life, getting worse, etc.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
Shosty
Unregistered
posted
We see a doctor who is covered by insurance. We did have one appt. each (2 in our family) with LLMD's who are not covered, but worked it out so that our home PCP ordered labs and tests, that had been suggested by the LLMD's. We found that, since illness limited our ability to work, we needed to be even more cautious about money, especially since there is no assurance that spending all this money at LLMD's would even make us better.
IP: Logged |
posted
Seekhelp -- could you please PM me with the names of the doctors you are going to/trying to see. Im in NJ did a lot of searching and asking before i setteled on which LLMD Doctor and LLMD shrink i was going to see. 300$ isn't too high for a WB blood test, think mine was 298$ I am curious to know who is supposed to be the best in NJ...
Posts: 9 | From Sea Girt NJ | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Let's keep things in perspective, shall we.............
I have a nicely swollen lymph node in my neck (for about 2 years). I have had three doctors visits for it..........several hundred dollars.
I finally bit the bullet and went to see an ENT. It was a half hour visit (although the doctor was with me for maybe 10). The cost-----$599. $200 for the office visit and $399 for "surgical procedure"--that's where he squirted an anesthetic up my nose, came back and threaded that fiber optic thingamajig up my nose and down my throat for about 2 mins. He told me everything looked dandy.
Then he sent me for a $2000 dollar ct scan that diagnosed me as having swollen lymph nodes. Well, I already knew that, now didn't I?
Guess what else-----he didn't care to listen to me AT ALL, about my history (not dx'd with lyme) or my family's history (all dx'd with lyme). He didn't care to listen about the other swollen lymph nodes under my arm, or my back pain, or my craziness once a month (which my obgyn was only too happy to throw a little prozac at). He did offer to remove the node "if it bothered me" I'm not sure what he meant by that!
So complain about prices, but if a llmd can get you well----Hallelujah
Because of the sickness in my family-we have visited 4 llmds. Without exception they have been the BEST doctors we have ever had care from. They LISTEN, give much longer office visits than 15 mins, oh did I mention they LISTEN to their patients carefully. Yup, that's right they LISTENED to us!
I'll betcha $750 is going to get you a nice, long, thorough visit. Much more thorough than my ENT and CT scan experience for my swollen lymph nodes which cost around $2600.
Posts: 554 | From Naples, Italy | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
$300 just to DRAW the blood (but not for the tests to be run)?
I would not pay that. I would just ask for the scripts, and take them to a local lab that is covered by insurance for the draw.
My LLMD might charge me a small fee for blood draws in his office, but I'm not sure. If he does, it is worth it (because it is a smaller fee), just for the conveinence....for the ones that are complicated and come with kits, etc.
$750 for a first or second appointment MIGHT be okay, depending on how much time they spend with you, and the level of expertise.
But I would have a hard time paying $750 for visits after the first or second time.
I personally have a problem with the fees some LLMD's charge. All physicians are supposed to charge what is reasonable for their field. If they spend 2 hours with you, it's worth a lot of money....but it should be in line with what your local ID specialist would charge for 2 hours. It should be the same. If it is way more, for the same amount of time, it DOES make LLMD's look bad, in my opinion.
example: If your local ID spends 20 minutes with you and charges $100, an LLMD should charge $300 for an hour. Price per minute is the same. (I don't know what ID's charge...this is an example)
If LLMD's don't want to look "shady," they need to charge standard specialist's fees. If they need to charge more for higher malpractice insurance, that's fine, but it shouldn't be outrageously more for a visit.
I have never been a patient of LLMD's that charged outrageous fees. Mine have all seemed fair for the amount of time they spend with me.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
My daughters first LLMD appt was over $1000 but worth every penny. Subsequent visits are much cheaper.
If its the Dr. F in NJ I am thinking of (a woman)...she is supposed to be very good.
Best of luck.
Posts: 371 | From CT | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
Lymeorsomething
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16359
posted
I hardly bat an eyelash anymore. I figure health is as important as it gets. Without it, what enjoyment will I get out of life? Lyme has really marginalized things for me and if there is hope through a MD who charges a little more, I'd rather give it a shot...
-------------------- "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong." Posts: 2062 | From CT | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
I agree Hoosiers51 about what you said. I think charging 2-3x more than a regular specialists' hourly rate is unfair.
I guess what irks us all is the fact insurance is not accepted. I understand why, but it kills us fiancially.
That aside, I feel my LLMD charges reasonable follow-up visit fees compared to some I hear and probably in line with regular specialists on a per minute basis. $500 for a F/U visit is extraordinary and seems to be much, much more than malpractice coverage I would think.
The thing is LLMDs have us by the b###s. We have NO choice as they are a doc of last resort. Many even state this in their paperwork.
We'd all pay a lot, including me, to get better though. Health is hard to put a price on for sure. Unfortunately, I don't consider a doc listening to us as a gift. It should be expected. It's SAD the American medical system has forgotton this aspect. It's sickening.
I guess one thing I'd always like is PROOF that LLMDs truly pay a higher malpractice insurance cost than other docs. Anyone verify this? How much more? That, high demand, and length of visits are the three main variables that set them apart.
LLMDs can make lots of extra revenue in ways conventional docs don't: marking up test costs for profit, supplement sales, etc. Don't forget this offset too.
There's two ways to look at it:
#1 - these docs go out on a huge limb for us Lyme patients and risk a lot (and very true);
#2 - this going out on a limb gets them TONS AND TONS of patients and endless revenue streams compared to them being Family Practice docs. Higher fees generated too. My doc has a long waiting list as many good LLMDs.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
Lymeorsomething
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16359
posted
Yes, we are over a barrel but at least they are there to help us. Otherwise we'd be having GP's telling us to get our heads examined for the rest of our lives
-------------------- "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong." Posts: 2062 | From CT | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
I agree. Psychiatrists would get richer. Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
quote:Originally posted by seekhelp: I agree Hoosiers51 about what you said. I think charging 2-3x more than a regular specialists' hourly rate is unfair.
"hourly rate"?
Local ID Specialist charged $300 - spent around 15 minutes with me, so his hourly rate would be $1200. He answered about 6-7 phone calls and played around with his new laptop. He told me I would look much sicker & that the 2 weeks of Amoxicillin I had been given was sufficient to take care of my Lyme & Babesiosis.
I don't recall what my first visit cost with the LLMD I went to but I KNOW it wasn't even close to $1200 and he spent over an hour with me. He also had much more intelligent answers for me than "Well that's what their teaching at all the major universities."
The moron who charged me $300 wasted my time. It took me five hours to make myself presentable & drag myself there, I waited in his office for about 1/2 hour or so and he even left the room for the phone calls.
I wasted an entire day of my life, not to mention the emotional upset & frustration I experienced, and paid him $300 for the privilege.
I believe that my LLMD more than earned the money he charged me. He also didn't charge $300 to draw blood, are you SURE that's just for the draw?
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
We are caught in a trap for sure.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I spent 2+ years with dr. f. She does not follow burrascano guidelines. I will private message you.
Posts: 433 | From new york | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
I'm of a mixed mind about all of this. They have us over a barrel. We need them, and many are wonderful, but like it or not there is a market here for desperately ill people willing to pay. And this is what allows them to charge as much as they do.
I am guessing here but...
As far as malpractice insurance goes, I doubt it's much higher than other practices. Malpractice insurance is probably priced by region and by specialty: internist, ID, GI, neuro, psych, OBGYN, cardio, etc.
Since there is no such specialty as LLMD, I don't know how it could be priced higher. Unless it is like auto insurance, where each accident or ticket adds $$ to the total. (Or like life or health, where they assess risk.) But even with auto insurance, the base rate starts at the same price based on location, make, model, year ...
Posts: 845 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
AliG, re-read my original post. I was saying one should calculate the hourly rate based on how long they spend with you. So if they spent 15 minutes and charged 300, the hourly rate would be $1200 for that ID doctor.
My point was that all specialists in a particular field should be charging the same hourly *rate* (which you will need to calculate based on minutes), once you also add some leeway for malpractice expenses, and the rent for their office (for example, someone in Manhattan may need to charge more).
In some cases, the ID's will come out looking greedy, but in some cases, it is the LLMD's. Depends on situation.
I think if LLMD's do not want to further tarnish their reputation among skeptics, they should charge what is customary for their geographical area and specialty, based on a price-per-minute calculation.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
Hoosiers51,
I'm not certain but seek's "agreement" sounded to me like it was followed by disagreement.
I was trying to clarify, though I guess not very well.
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Maybe I contradicted myself? I'm not exactlty sure what statement you're referring to.
IMO, the bottom line is these LLMDs can charge any amount they want and they know many will pay it. The cost of their services doesn't have to be in line with others at times. They are the docs of last resort.
I do agree this small group of docs in whole would look better to the world if their fees mirrored other docs in the same field. Sometiems they do, other times not.
Sure, some geographical areas (i.e,, NY, CA) are higher in cost no doubt. I recall some post about a ND on the West Coast charging a very high per min fee...well, people are desperate, there are only a few who believe in chronic Lyme, etc.
It's free market. 1,000 patients & 1 lyme-believing and knowledgeable ND = unlimited pricing power. Same goes for non-medical consumables. I look it at this way instead of wondering does LLMD XYZ cares about hi/her patients personally or has to charge an amount to survive.
It's business. ID docs are doing it to make a living. LLMDs are too. Just because one specialist calls 99% of us mental cases and discredits patients' histories and a LLMD sits down for a while, smiles, agrees with you, never says it's all in your head, doesn't change the story. It's still business, right?
Me personally...I decide if the services offered, knowledge level of whatever doc I see warrants the OUT-OF-POCKET price I pay for a visit. I don't care about actual cost of visits. I care about the financial impact it has on me personally when my treating doc doesn't accept insurance.
A doctor spending 1-3 hours with me doesn't always = a good doc. Agreeing with patients and sympathizing doesn't always = a good doc. Saying chronic Lyme exists doesn't always = a good doc. Quality treatment, education, success rates, intelligence, ingenuity = a good doc. Can't forget this. I try to not let personal attachments sway a purchasing decision.
I used to see a doc who had long appointment times. Did that make the doc great? Not necessarily.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
AliG, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with that one doctor.
I have had bad experiences like that too, and it boils my blood, when I go through so much to show up for an appointment where someone blows me off. The nerve!
Seek, I agree with your second-to last paragraph about what does and doesn't make a good doc. I have had lyme docs that believed in chronic lyme, and spent a long long time with me, and were very kind, but in the end were not good LLMD's, because their skill level was not up to par.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
LLMD's don't close the office door at 5 PM.
Many work late into the night.. many many nights. I know. I see them.
Seek- You ask for them to help you as a patient, then often condemn them for not doing research studies to benefit us,..
Want to know why they are not being more active in ILADS, not teaching other docs, not changing laws to suit you, not working to improve the insurance situation so you can benefit, etc..
The LLMD's are beaten down by their own colleagues, loose their ability to work out of their local hospitals, are watched by insurance reps.. etc... while having to deal with some of the worst bunch of patients I've ever known.
Face it, we ain't easy.
They have extra paper work to do for us (IV orders, multiple calls on our behalf, disability, etc), much more than other docs ... just to document everything so that the day the supena comes in, their records are in order.
Then there are the legal fees.
Some have retainers on one or more lawyers just to be able to handle all the threats they get.
Most LLMD's have supplements available to HELP patients, not for the few bucks profit they can make a month.
Without some of this stuff being available through them, I could not get stuff I need.. and/or I would forget.
A number of deals the docs make with companies allows them to get better deals than I could anywhere else.
Example- I recently needed one product.
The absolute cheapest anyone could find it for was 3 times higher than my LLMD was able to get it for.
BTW- Who is paying these LLMD's for their months of work that they have been doing for us at the Panel Review tomorrow?
That's right.. they are doing it for free. They are footing the expenses themselves.
Days out of their office- lost income.
I'd guess 80 or more hours of work (each) to put together the 2,000 pages of submissions they did in April.
Then 40 plus more for the presentation tomorrow. One presenter made three or four trips across their state to work on their project.. on their own time.
Then their is the roundtrip airfare, copies, power points, computers, hotel fees, meals, transportation, etc.
Unlike University ducks (HO HO HOpkins or Hold the Mayo).. they aren't given research grants.
They don't have funds for training or scientific conferences.
They don't have endless budgets from which to work from.
Are they poor as a church mouse?
If they are I don't know of it.
Are they rolling in the dough?
If so, I haven't seen that either.
In the mid 1990's, a 15 minute ID duck appointment cost $800.00. And I didn't get any tests and no treatment.
posted
thanks everyone but i decided not to use her based on the pm's i received which were mostly negative.
sorry about the different spelling of my name but i am away and my brother messed up my computer and i don;t have my password stored on this one so i had to reregister(i will cancel this account tomorror)
Posts: 1 | From PT PLEASANT NJ | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
(which my obgyn was only too happy to throw a little prozac at). He did offer to remove the node "if it bothered me" ![[loco]](graemlins/loco.gif)
I'm not sure what he meant by that! ![[bow]](graemlins/bow.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic