He says that -Lyme should not be treated with antibiotics -%40 of the population have the lyme infection, but they do not get sick. -The real problem is not the lyme, we have many types of spirochets in us. -The problem is the state of the body which has allowed the lyme to change its behavior. -The problem should be treated by removing mercury and heavy metals and other toxins and chaing the diet. -Treatment with antibiotics will only change the lyme bacteria into the cell wall deficient form which is very dangerous (one of three forms, cyst, spirochete and CWD form). This then is what can easily go into cells and the immune system will start attacking the body, you will get MS or autoimmune diseases.
I just saw my LLMD for the fist time and he is planning to use a couple oral anti-biotics, so this is all very confusing. I'm very skeptical of everything. I'm a little more agreeable with the idea that there might be other things like murcery or nutrition deficiencies. However, if this swis doctor is right, then treating with anti-biotics would be a very very bad idea, you could end up with a much worse form of the disease. Please watch the whole video. I don't like that all the doctors are saying different things.
thanks
Posts: 136 | From arlington, VA | Registered: Jun 2010
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- You said that you " don't like that all the doctors are saying different things."
Yeah, that can be confusing and unsettling. However, I want to hear all the ideas. I may disagree or find that something they say doesn't mesh with what other experts say but I WANT to hear from all the good researchers as that's the only way we can learn more and get our brains stimulated enough to find ways to deal with this.
There is nothing simple about borrelia. It's one of the most complex toxins. As for the part about other spirochetes, yes, there are. But lyme is far more complex than even syphilis. Borrelia b's genetic code blows syphilis out of the water.
Well, I'll have to watch the video before I can reply further. And my brain waves are not alert enough for that yet.
One thought, there are some who where in top physical form before lyme hit them hard. They were healthy, happy, satisfied with all areas of their lives, within reason. And they still got very ill.
Right there, that challenges this. And, yet, some of the good stuff he's saying sounds very much like what Dr. K's been focusing on for years.
He's right about the different forms but hat is also why LLMDs use combinations, rotations, etc.
I do look forward to watching this a little later. Thanks for posting it. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
Antiparasitics should be part of the tx since Burgdorfer found Adult Filarial Worms in the ticks he dissected. This a a much overlooked co0infection when dealing with Lyme.
I only started making progress when I started attacking the parasites/worms which play a MAJOR role in Lyme disease. Check out
Dr. K. treats ALL of his patients for parasites/worms before he starts treating them for the other co-infections.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Parasites, oh, yeah . . . I really have to remember that. Gael is so good to keep reminding us and I hope we all learn to remind each other of the parasite connection. It is sorely overlooked.
I also have to add that protection from lyme toxins but also from the chemical hit of Rx is important and often over looked. LIver support, etc. is so vital not just to help protect the liver but also teh ears. Gentle kidney support, too, I've just not studied that as much.
There is nothing simple about any of this but I just have to say that I'm so thankful to the people who provide LYMENET so that we can have such a forum for sharing, discussion.
Google had not yet even been created when I was dx with a lyme "trio" - for all the less than classy stuff on the web and in light of how overwhelming even good information can be as we want to find that one detail that will give us our lives back,
we are pulling (hopefully golden) threads out of pile and creating the tapestry that will work for each of us. Some principles apply for many but there is no single plan that works for everyone.
My video brain just woke up so I'll hop over to that now. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96220 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
Not saying antibiotics are not necessary, and they probably saved my life in the beginning. Some people do better on IVs.
The adjunct of antiparasitics should be considered as well if your not making progress. As always Keeblers suggestions are always excellent advice. Protecting the liver is very important.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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massman
Unregistered
posted
I listened to the first 19 minutes + liked it. So far same major points as Dr. K, who in my opinion is the sharpest in the field.
Will get to the rest. Thanks for posting this !
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posted
I went to this talk at Marion Institute! The other parts of the talk are listed on the right side of the site. If you have the time, it is a great lecture.
Dr. Rau is very persuasive, and his science looks good. I know antibiotics are just the thing for many people, but not all.
Our daughter was on the verge of doing a third round of abx when I went to this talk, and she decided not to. For her it was the right decision. She adjusted her diet, and she is now focusing on heavy metals, with parasite treatment to follow. We'll see how it works.
Applewine, I am very much in the minority on this board, for not doing the antibiotics on & on. All I can say is, if you can, look within and see what path resonates for you. With this wicked disease, pretty much nobody knows what will work for any one person. GOOD LUCK.
Posts: 228 | From Mass. | Registered: Feb 2009
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nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
What about bartonella and babesia? No one has ever said that abx causes them to alter into a more dangerous form but they sure are hard to get rid of. I think the abx nearly finished off the lyme. It is the co-infections I can't get rid of.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I agree with you Richard1062. I did look at some people's posts on message boards who went to the Paracelsus Clinic & not all did spectacularly well. Dr Rau's ideas were interesting but sometimes things are GITNIP (good in theory, not in practice).
This illness is very frustrating. I'm not sure everyone even has the same illness. So, it's kind of impossible to say what the correct treatment is for all of us.
We just have to keep trying different things until we find something that helps. I'm not a big fan of endless abx, though. Especially, if we don't know exactly what we are treating.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
With regard to liver support: I tried Milk Thistle (1/2 capsule) and it really affected me negatively. Should I try, like, 1/8 cap at first? And then keep increasing so I am at a capsule a day?
I know I need to support my liver, but I am so super sensitive to (it seems like) all supps and such. Thanks.
Posts: 113 | From CA | Registered: Jun 2010
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BoxerMom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25251
posted
Many people get MS and other autoimmune conditions from NOT treating their Lyme.
Many people REVERSE their MS and other autoimmune conditions by treating their Lyme with antibiotics.
Choose your treatment wisely, but don't be afraid of antibiotics. If they are not for you, that's fine. But they have given many Lyme patients their lives back.
Nothing in Lyme treatment is set in stone. Choose your path, and be prepared to change it as new information becomes available.
BoxerMom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25251
posted
I should add that I spent 15 years chelating heavy metals, detoxifying, exercising, meditating, and following an impeccable diet. I should have been the healthiest person on the planet.
I was sick as a dog until I treated my infections with antibiotics.
Please do what makes sense to you. But don't give up 15 years of your life.
posted
which antiparasitics are best?
Posts: 453 | From TX | Registered: Aug 2008
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linky123
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19974
posted
Check with a biological dentist for hidden dental infections, both root canals that become toxic (almost all do) and cavitations that form in the jawbone, mostly from extractions and incorrect removal of wisdom teeth.
Try to find someone who uses EDS, electodermal screening to determine where the problems originate and how to treat them. It's amazing how accurate this is. This particular md uses both traditional medicine; he is an md, and homeopathics where needed.
We used abx initially, but were allergic to most of them, so turned to alternative medicine, which has really helped both me and my kids.
Nothing against abx; it works for some, but we just couldn't tolerate it.
Also, almalgam fillings containing mercury an nickel are highly toxic causing us even more problems.
Parasites are a major problem that most folks are not even aware of. They can really wreck the immune system along with the dental, which can set us up to susceptibility to all kinds of illness.
So we become sitting ducks just waiting for that one tick bite that our immune system can't handle.
Our family has worked over the past few months with an md who specializes in all the above. He is not a lyme doctor, but focuses on restoring the immune system. The transformation has been amazing. I have had seven root canals pulled, four crowns, all containing mercury and/or nickel, and three cavitations cleaned out. One had spread up into my nasal cavity. Lots going on there that I wasn't even aware of.
My two kids and I are also high in heavy metals and are doing oral chelation therapy for that.
Getting rid of as much of this strain on the immune system can really help us in the long run.
It has been a long road, and expensive, but I now believe for some of us, we need to address the dental problems or we will never fully recover.
The infected dental areas can come from the spirokete, and/or many other types of bacteria. Once they are taken care of, the body can more easily handle the lyme and tx.
-------------------- 'Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.' Matthew 11:28 Posts: 2607 | From Hooterville | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
I didn't watch the video but I've heard about this and it does sound very convincing.
No matter how you choose to approach lyme treatment, I don't think anyone really knows how to "cure" this complex illness, only to manage it.
I personally feel we're all so different in terms of the toxic load we carry. Genetics, environment, viruses, parasites, bacteria, heavy metals etc... all play a role in chronic illness and should all probably be addressed somehow.
People get better doing different things, whether it's treating metal, changing diet, using herbs or abx, treating with anti-virals or a combination thereof (Sort of goes with my theory that we're just toxic soups!)
To offer another prospective, I was 37 and super healthy prior to getting a tick bite. I got the rash and became very symptomatic then went misdiagnosed and under treated for over a year.
Nine months of antibiotic treatment later, I've been in remission for 5 months (off abx). Of course I worry of relapse (and ms and auto immune etc..). I do take pretty good care of myself however and feel as good as I did before I got sick.
I really think that tick bite sent me and (my 37 year old "toxic load") over the edge and overwhelmed my immune system and my body. Antibiotics balanced it back out by treating the Lyme and my immune system has once again grabbed the reigns (That's not to say it won't drop them again haha but 5 months is definitely moving in the right direction.
I'm not saying abx is right for everyone, but they brought me back from the dead, I was really ill and non-functioning prior to treatment. Saved my life and I'm grateful for it (and my doc!).
Hope this helps someone!
Posts: 108 | From Raleigh, NC | Registered: Apr 2008
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lymetwister
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19590
posted
Here is my take on this as I watched the entire presentation last night.
I think the Dr. makes a good point about toxicity and detoxing is essential with this disease.
Having said that, I question why he is here in the U.S. Is he trying to drum up business ? He has a hotel in his office building. None of this can be cheap.
He states that 40% of Americans test pos. for Lyme. I have never heard of a randomized study that would confirm such a statistic.
He also states that some get sick from Lyme and questions why others don't. I think this all comes down to the immune response. Why did many us become sick all of a sudden when we had this for perhaps 10 or more years without being ill. In my case, I lost my brother to lung cancer and I was so devastated that my immune system had to take a dive. At least this is what I've been told.
Lastly, he suggests that stage 2 Lyme progresses to stage 3 b/c of Abx. In other words Abx progress the disease. I also have trouble with this statement as I progressed to stage 3 before I was even treated.
Lastly, many people on here have gotten better from abx and I don't recall him addressing this issue, but only those that didn't get better from abx. This could be due to the specific treatment that wasn't personalized around the patient or perhaps the focus was on the wrong infection.
I can only tell you that my LLMD has brought people back from the dead, so to speak. This I know for a fact. And he does it with Abx.
These are just my own thoughts and opinions. I remain open minded to everything. The guy could by 100% right, but I personally don't buy it.
Gary
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
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massman
Unregistered
posted
Very good points, linky.
I have used EDS extensively and have found it a great tool for finding out what to do and to use.
We are all very much individuals in our expressions and causes of what is going on.
Seems like some people bow down before the antibiotics, thinking they are a sure cure all for everyone - but they are for some and are not for all.
Did any of you who did well with antibiotics ever give a good try with herbals ? And were you assessed by and supervised by a pretty compotent natural health pro ?
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linky123
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19974
posted
Yes Massman you are right. The EDS really does work. I am so grateful we found it.
-------------------- 'Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.' Matthew 11:28 Posts: 2607 | From Hooterville | Registered: Apr 2009
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
It's really an individualized thing - this "Lyme" treatment. Everyone is different.
If you catch it early & it really is a tick bite - I'm sure the abx help. Some people get really ill & they need a larger than life approach. They get scared & need to haul out the big guns (ie: abx) - so to speak.
This approach doesn't work for everyone. Many people are conditioned to think that drugs are always better than herbs. It's not always the case.
Sometimes, we may be ill due to viruses. If this is the case, the abx will not help. I don't have alot of toxic dental work - so, the dental issue is probably not my source of illness.
It's really all so individualized. I can't make a blanket statement that abx are bad for everyone - since they do help some. My feeling is that if we need a long term treatment, the herbs are better suited towards that. Less side effects.
If the abx don't work - I don't see how taking larger doses over a longer period of time will help. You really have to study it. I found scientific studies that stated that the abx were ineffective - especially in regards to babesia treatment.
You have to spend a long time researching stuff. Some doctors may be good but it's really a gamble if they will help you. There's alot they don't know but they may not admit it.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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