posted
Hi, just to update, I have been using not everyday but often to raise my temp, to try least stop growth of chetes.???? Just try.
I believe I have done some herxing after awhile. My temp normally around 96.6. I can get up to 100. Not sure if that is enough but almost 4 degrees for me. Being they keep temp down to multiply.
So far, feel it is doing something better than nothing I get from my Drs. except after 20yrs. last yr, got short pic line treatment. 5th week did herx big time. Tossed my cookies till could no more. Then they did not follow up with orals so all came to end quickly. I am in late stage just trying anything I can do myself????
Posts: 746 | From Clearwater/fl/Pinellas | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
What type/brand sauna did you get ?
Posts: 448 | From minnesota | Registered: Feb 2010
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- The greatest impact from a sauna is sweating out all sorts of toxins and getting circulation going. That is really best done at lower temps than traditional saunas.
There is no way to get hot enough to kill spirochetes in your body but even a low-heat sauna can help you sweat out toxins and increase circulation so that oxygen helps decrease infection.
Many lyme patients do very poorly with high heat and it can strain the heart - so go slowly with low heat - just toasty warm enough for a good sweat will still help tremendously. If you start to feel ill, get out immediately.
Heat stroke (which can occur sooner with lyme) should not be confused with a herx. It's also really never good to push a herx. They are best avoided so be sure to back away when you feel it's too much for your body.
Once you get the routine, it should be enjoyable. You might feel more tired afterward but you should never feel sick. If so, something is missing or something was too much.
Enjoy it ! -
[ 06-26-2010, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Hi, Let me look it up. I got great deal on if want to sell will make money. It is 1 person, yet can do 2. Just found info for You (Master Spas of Northern WI)You can find on net but more than what I pd. for at fair. Due to all the orders at once. I would only purchase If set up. Usually when sent these things you have to put together. Was supposed to be used left at door. He sent 2 guys to install was really easy. Has stereo, Ionizer(great when sweating),I do sweat detox. It is diff. than my Fl. heat, my temp never goes up. I still am going to believe it least halts some of the chetes being they keep my temp so low, & that I have done what appears a herx. It is good for your heart was listed good for by Drs. It is whirlpool that is not good for heart pts. On all comments, not 1 bad thing, I know if some days can`t stay in as long. Normal is 130 degrees, I push it to 140, for me. Being not normal need more to try to kill off if poss. That is still all up in air, like most of our treatments. I want to do something being NO 1 will help me.
I sweat lot in Fl. due not run A/C to expensive & I do lousy in A/C. Have wide door open up high with great Fl. breeze. Best can do for now. Hugggggssss, To all in Need,Kerry
Posts: 746 | From Clearwater/fl/Pinellas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Kerry,
Living where you do, your body seems to do much better with heat than most people who deal with lyme. Still, I'd hate to see this boomerang. A sauna at 130 and 140 can put us at risk.
Please be careful with those temperatures. It's a myth that a person can kill spirochetes with high temps. It is not possible to get that hot for that long.
Some spirochetes may bite the dust but some be more inclined to burrow deeper to cooler parts of the body and ball up into cyst form with extreme sensory irritation of any kind.
It's better to target therapy to increase oxygen to weaken spirochetes (which can come from lower heat) than increase heat itself.
I've suffered several major set-backs from using a high heat sauna before I knew I had lyme. Sometimes, it just too one instance of getting too hot to land flat on my back for months.
I was not a quick learner in this area and tried it again and again, thinking the heat must be good, but it nearly killed me. High heat saunas can be fatal. It does happen.
Working harder and faster can be counterproductive in many aspects of lyme treatment. If we turn down the intensity, it can be a more enjoyable ride and we can arrive at a our destination a little less clobbered.
LymeXtu ,
If you are looking to get a sauna, it's important to know that some people can tolerate the heat but most lyme patients need to avoid getting too hot. Not only does it stress the heart but it also stresses the brain (and can cause even worse hypoperfusion if that's an issue as it often is for those with lyme). Adrenal stress, too, is a major issue with high heat. Kidneys also can suffer.
Low heat FIR far infrared is the type most LLMD suggest for lyme patients. The lower heat is safer. Even a traditional sauna can be used at lower settings, though, just enough to get a sweat going.
High heat, from any source, can be very hard on the heart of a lyme patient. It is impossible to get hot enough, safely, to kill spirochetes. Benefits from warmth come from sweating and increased circulation, increasing oxygen flow to tissue.
A low-heat FIR sauna can penetrate more deeply into the body at lower temperatures than regular saunas.
Heavenly Heat FIR sauna is one of the top brands if you are looking buy one. Sunlight is also a good brand.
In addition to FAR infrared, similar in nature, NEAR infrared is also helpful. Both are low heat with the infrared helping to penetrate more deeply without high heat.
CRAIGSLIST often has saunas for sale - just be sure to avoid toxic glues or any manufactured or plywood pieces used anywhere in the unit. -
[ 06-26-2010, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Carol in PA
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5338
posted
quote:Originally posted by Kerryblue: Normal is 130 degrees, I push it to 140, for me. Being not normal need more to try to kill off if poss.
This is really stressing the body. Trying to kill off the Lyme bacteria by raising your body's temperature is risky.
Carol
Posts: 6947 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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lymetwister
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19590
posted
I herx from sauna personally. I use the ebay tent model and sweat like a pig in it.
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
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massman
Unregistered
posted
I have never seen pigs sweat. I have, however, seen them fly around the moon
Repeatedly we are told here that FIS cannot kill lyme. Is this really theory or reality ?
Are there studies that show this or are assumptions being made based on LAB studies ? ---------------------------------------------- CURIOSITY DISCLAIMER: Yup, I have always been curious. A LOT
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
Individuals with chronic Lyme Disease may experience heat intolerance related to an especially hot day, sauna therapy (far infrared, ozone, or conventional), hot tub/whirlpool use, or even a hot shower. These symptoms may be aggravated by a standing position, dehydration, and certain medications. The severity of these symptoms can range from mild to life-threatening
Most people understand that longstanding Lyme Disease can damage the nervous system. This damage may affect the central nervous system, the brain and spinal cord. In addition, the peripheral nervous system, the individual nerves outside of the spinal cord that control the muscles of our arms and legs, and the nerves to our organ systems may be damaged as well.
The peripheral nervous system is divided into the somatic nerves and the autonomic nerves. Somatic nerves, or nerves to our muscles and skin, affect feeling and movement. Autonomic nerves control our organs to include the heart, blood vessels, bowel function, bladder function and other internal organs.
Lyme Disease may damage the central nervous system in many ways. One area that can be impacted is the hypothalamus and pituitary gland which are located in the center of the brain. The pituary gland is often referred to as the "master gland" in that it controls many other endocrine glands including the thryoid, adrenal glands, ovaries, and testicules.
An endocrine gland, by definition, is a gland that secretes hormones into the blood which then contols other parts of the body.
When Lyme Disease damages the pituitary gland, it can have an impact on all of these other glands and cause deficiency symptoms. On can become hypothyroid (low thyroid function) or have decreased adrenal hormone output as a result of damage in the brain.
This type of problem is referred to as a secondary endocrinopathy or an endocrine problem caused by some other area of the body other than a particular gland itself.
For instance, if the pituitary is damaged and does not secrete enough of the hormone that's needed to simulate the thryoid (TSH-thryoid stimulating hormone) one would label this problem as a secondary endocrinopathy.
In addition to secondary endocrinopathies, Lyme Disease may directly damage endocrine glands. The pancreas may be damaged directly resulting in diabetes, the adrenal glands may be damaged directly resulting in adrenal insufficiency, or the thryoid might be damaged resulting in low thyroid function or hypothyroidism.
Primary and secondary endocrine disorders are reasonably well understood. What isn't understood is that Lyme Disease can cause BOTH primary and secondary endocrine disorders at the same time. Unravelling this situation is near impossible. There is nothing written, to my knowledge, in any text book about a medical model for this type of complex situation and few doctors understand the concept.
Lyme Disease is capable of damaging just about any part of the body and that's why this complex situation may exist. In either type of endocrinopathy, replacement therapy is usually prescribed.
Whether primary or secondary, it is not uncommon for Lyme patients to have some degree of adrenal insufficiency. Moreover, standard testing generally isn't adequate because the usual variation of adrenal hormone, cortisol, does not follow the usual patterns. In normal people, cortisol levels are highest in the morning and lowest as night.
In Lyme Disease this pattern is often interrupted and reversed. Should someone have adrenal insufficiency, their bodies do not produce enough adrenal hormones. These hormones include testosterone, cortisol, norepinenephrine and epinephrine.
People often feel weak, have low blood pressure, feel depressed and may not be able to respond to stress. When severe, adrenal failure can result which is life threatening.
Epinephrine and norepinephrine are the major vasoactive substances produced...or the chemicals that maintain or increase blood pressure.
If a person is subjected to high temperatures, this results in vasodilation of the skin...or a condition were the blood vessels enlarge in the skin and therefore lowers blood pressure.
In order to maintain normal blood pressure, the body has regulatory mechanisms, receptors in the aorta and carotid arteries that can detect low blood pressure, so that more epinephrine and norepinephrine are released.
These substances will then increase and maintain a normal blood pressure. In patients with Lyme Disease, these regulatory mechanisms may be impaired and thus, the individual may not be able to maintain proper blood pressure.
With low blood pressure, the individual will often note a rapid weak heart beat, weakness, dizziness, and if severe enough, shock. Shock being a state where there is insufficient blood pressure to maintain adequate blood flow to vital organs.
Shock may be preceded by heat exhaustion, a condition where a person may have an elevated temperature, low blood pressure, dehydration and mental confusion.
Peripheral neuropathy is not an uncommon problem in Lyme Disease. People with peripheral neuropathy have some degree of weakness and numbness of their lower extremities or hands. When present and if of a longstanding nature, it may also coexist with automonic dysfunction as the autonomic nervous system is part of the peripheral nervous system.
The autonomic nervous system has receptors located in the aorta (largest blood vessel in the body) and the carotid arteries (the arteries supplying the brain).
If these sensors are damaged or impaired as they may be in Lyme Disease, then the body cannot react normally to a low blood pressure event. Add to that possible adrenal impairment, and maintaining proper blood pressure becomes even more difficult.
It is a known fact that adrenal insufficiency is a "relative" contraindication to using a sauna. A "relative" contraindication means that if a sauna is used, it should only be used with the understanding that danger exists and that a physician should be consulted before using this therapy.
Similiarly, people that have known Lyme Disease may be at increased risk of dehydration and heat exhaustion as their bodies regulatory mechanisms do not always function as well as others.
Understanding how the body works and how Lyme Disease impacts so many different organ systems can aid us in taking necessary health safety precautions.
In particular, people with Lyme Disease may need to pay particular attention to heat exposure in all of its forms be it a hot day, sauna therapy, jogging, or the use of a hot tub.
Should one feel that they may be particularly sensitive to heat exposure, further evaluation by a competent physician knowledgable of Lyme Disease would be most helpful.
To Your Good Health,
James W. Cilecek, MD (Board Certified in Emergency Medicine)
======================
Other details that relate to the need to be cautious with exposure to excessive / high heat as the kind of heat intolerance that many lyme patients can experience can then trigger more serious events: -----------
. . . Hypoperfusion of the left temporal, right parietal and left frontal lobes were consistently seen. . . .
. . . demyelination (loss of sheath around nerves) . . . .
. . . LD has been documented to cause strokes, paralysis, a variety of seizures, transient or permanent blindness, Parkinsonian-like movement disorders, motor and/or sensory neuropathies, mononeuritis multiplex, radiculoneuritic pains, meningitis and encephalitis. . . .
. . . The more commonly noticed neurologic deficits involve one or more cranial nerves (I thru XII), . . .
. . . Papilledema (swelling) of the optic disc . . . .
. . . Cardiac complications arise in 8-12% of LD cases. . . .
. . . Sudden death can also result from arrythmias. . . Lyme cardiomyopathy . . . Mitral valve prolapse . . . .
. . . Potassium deficiency without an obvious origin irregularly evolves in LD. Rarely, the K+ losses are profound. This could be due to Mg++ deficiency. New onset or difficult to control hypertension is more likely to be seen. . . .
. . . Hypoadrenalism can uncommonly develop. . . disorders of . . . temperature [control] . . .
. . . Typically, heat intolerance is revealed as irritability, headache . . .
. . . Neurally mediated hypotension (NMH) is not uncommon. Symptoms can include palpitations, lightheadedness and shakiness especially after exertion and prolonged standing,
heat intolerance, dizziness,fainting (or near fainting), and an unavoidable need to sit or lie down. . . . -
[ 06-27-2010, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
Saunas can be good but it's proven that high heat in the body will not get rid of Lyme.
People tried it in a variety of ways - by removing blood & heating it, raising the body temperature, etc. It doesn't work. I think ticks need to be at 105 degrees for 3 days or more for any effect on the Bb. Maybe it just kills the tick...? I don't recall off hand but I do remember it doesn't work.
The thing that may be helpful is that sauna has beneficial effects on the body. This may improve the immune system. I have read that sauna can improve heart function. I don't think it's good to over do it.
I'm feeling the heat where I am. It was supposed to feel like 105 the other day. Plus the sunlight is stronger here. I'm from the north, so I'm not really used to it. I can see it has it's benefits but go slow. Heat stroke is not fun.
PS - traditionally, people have done sauna in cooler climates. I don't know if there is a tradition for it in hot places. It makes more sense to do it where the weather is cool or cold. I don't know if it's a good idea to do alot of saunas in a place like FL in the summer...
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Hi, I have totally diff info from when I was buying it on net & all info from Dr`s. Ionizer good for yourself. Also I am raising my temp 4 to 5 degrees. I do not plan on this being cure, but to help stop when they cycle in tracks. I do not run my A/C my temp runs about 106. Pretty low even lower than that. This is bringing my temp up but Fla. heat does not??? Diff. type moist heat works diff. Every thing I read was good for even heart, help thin blood in proper manner. I am trying to speak in language many can understand. I could go into detail, boring, from Drs. who say yes to this & hyperbaric also. No place to put nor able to afford. Just got over 1,000 off & got cedar instead of the hemlock. I can sell it for way more than bought it for. We had cold winter could used then since do not run heat $$$$. It got into 20`s even here.
I would have lived in it then,ha So bundled up. SO yes better in winter, still totally diff type heat to get temp up to 10l, even after cold glass water. That is huge jump. So, if I can just stop few in tracks when they are trying to mutate. I would be happy. Think having herx now, lot like when I was on 5th & last week of IV pic line????? We shall see in winter what happens?? I am in late stage No 1 is helping me & heading towards(to add to long list already) ALS or Parkinson's. Life can Be B***H. We all do best we can & do not want to put damper on something giving shot, Nice Looking piece,strobe slow lights,stereo,Glass door No lock(so can`t do 1 of my stupid things,HA,helps back alot rub on the rounder parts,great for that also, blood pressure back down.
That is my story it offers more including Ionizer. & other added nice things. Got such deal,like said can sell for more easily. Plus I was 1 few they installed exactly where I wanted it. SO gals, before had all positive feedback from owners & Drs. Just hope they are right. Raise Temp 5degrees+ alot for me, never run temp.
Thank You all for great info. Huggggsssss,To ALL In Need,Kerry
Posts: 746 | From Clearwater/fl/Pinellas | Registered: Jun 2003
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lightparfait
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22022
posted
Dr. K's guidelines for a FIR Sauna:
120 to 140 degrees for lyme.
Pre-load patients with:
cocount oil garlic Chlorella
hours before the sauna begins. and Hydrate.
The idea is to let most of the toxins be removed through the liver...not only to concentrate on the skin. although you do want to sweat...there will be more toxins moving in various layers of the body that will not be sweated out no matter how long you stay in there.
Need to catch and eliminate the moving ones that are not being eliminated in the sweat.
Compare the liver to the size of a tennis court vs the skin surface, a ping pong table...use the larger organ to move the majority of the toxic waste.
Best results if you prepare properly. Otherwise there may be issues with the toxins recirculating.
Posts: 1009 | From NJ | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
Hi, Lightparfait, Thanks, for info I do premoist. Not exactly with Garlic, know my B/M have changed, even diff odor, they say we can say anything on net. ha Nice topic??
I put up to 140 deg. they say normal is 130 deg, for us we always are diff. have to push our limits always. More of everything even Co Q10 about 3X more than norm. ha.....
Still loopy from being so ill & no sleep+++..... Hugggsssss, To All In Need,Kerry
Posts: 746 | From Clearwater/fl/Pinellas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Tracy9
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7521
posted
Oh boy. I was planning to buy an infrared sauna because I thought it was supposed to help peripheral neuropathy. It's BAD for it? Should I scrap my plans????
I HATE being in the sauna but when I used my friend's it did help my neuropathy, but I felt lightheaded and like I was going to faint.
13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG. Posts: 4480 | From Northeastern Connecticut | Registered: Jun 2005
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
If you think of using sauna, make certain you do not fall into AI category - allergic to most stirred up toxins at DNA level and that you do not fall into the KPU category before you start mobilizing.
Majority of Parkinsons, ALS, MS have a problem with KPU and detoxing is totally inadequate and miserable and causing further damage if body cannot regulate any longer and the Autonomic Nervous system has all but collapsed. Don't do it - you are damaging yourself. The majority of Lyme patients have both problems - Dysregulations/Allergies plus Leaky Gut and Krytopyluria aka KPU/HPU.
Dr. K. used to own a sauna. I know he has not used it in many years. Quotations from seminars should not be taken out of context. To everything he says, the words, "under certain conditions" should always be added.
Sauna and most detox efforts are a bad experience longterm, if you have any of these two problems - any detox efforts are stymied and a waste of energy. You are simply playing merry-go-round and moving toxins anyplace but out!
Please read any of the threads here discussing KPU and Allergie Immun.
A sauna is great under the right conditions - but not if you have major allergies, i.e. your body is no longer able to regulate, your immune system can no longer recognize damaging toxins and if you fall into the KPU category lacking major detox minerals.
Take care.
P.S. the fact that I repeated myself several times here should tell you how i m p o r t a n t this subject is!
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
Search for keywords in subject line of medical forum: 'Allergie-Immun' | 9 matches found -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Tracy9
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7521
posted
I have an autoimmune disease; would that mean the sauna is a bad idea?
13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG. Posts: 4480 | From Northeastern Connecticut | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Hi, Maybe for certain people, most AI researched before I bought not 1 person or Dr. was against. Even on net people who have. It is up to you. I am not sure if it does all that, if we look hard enough we can find something bad about everything out there. Try it if you can, so far here No complaints. If I do can always sell it. Thanks for all interested. Do not be afraid they are not scary. Hugggggssss, to ALL in Need.Kerry
Posts: 746 | From Clearwater/fl/Pinellas | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
My LLMD mentioned that he might want to use my sauna along with Tindamax for a treatment plan. We never did because I went to Germany and quit abx treatment, but it was his opinion that the sauna raised your body to a temp that would kill some spirochetes and force others into cyst form, thus Tindamax.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
sixgoofykids, Thanks, could you update me little more on Tindamax. I am sure already in cyst form waaaay before sauna. I have not heard of or how to get. Never able to get to LLMD. I have done for 15 yrs. my own research & on basic common sense won 2 scholarships(though was in Calif. to Dine(on Queen Mary) many top Dr.s around WORLD. Guess what too ill to make from FL. to Calif. UGH, whats new. Also voted into who`s who,Cambridge`s. There many meds,treatments(pro or con),have worked or heard on. Have worked hard on many ill days. As us all. BTW goes for the people who are not sure if try sauna or not, DO Your own, then go with you gut, usually, right. This is a gut decission for me, I do not follow all would be broke & crazy if I went with all the sites~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This all on my own never a LLMD. Most what said on many things yrs. ago. As RLS form of Parkinson`s which is truly under Lyme. Now say is linked. Also RA, now Cleveland Clinic (the cynics), test correlation RA to FM, they never believed in FM. Till administrators wife yrs. ago came down with FM(still did not link to Lyme). Least open to the link>>>>>>>>YEAH.....Who knows where will finally lead, Being people looked up to what what horrible things told people with FM, that went for totally testing to only be told, well you know??? So if can help me about this part of it, I will look into. I usually only believe as we all should believe 50% of what you read, weed out what is the truth not always easy.???? Right but that is very old adage, still go with it....Takes lot work. All the sites that people believe have to get that... Thanks all for your input & have read, cleaned out the right from not so correct.... I know many post sites if we were to believe it all make us crazy, Hey we all ready are,ha Huggggsssss, to all IN NEED....Kerry Posts: 746 | From Clearwater/fl/Pinellas | Registered: Jun 2003
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SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
I personally find sauna very helpful for detoxification, but I do not believe that it will have any meaningful effect on Borrelia. I've heard it said that Borrelia can survive cremation and thus, I don't think that the heat produced by a sauna will have any notable impact. That said, the detox benefits of one, if tolerated, can be far-reaching and wonderful.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I tried sitting in one at a recent health expo. I lasted for 20 minutes and sweated fine.
I'm chemical sensitive and can never predict which treatment experience I'm going to pass and which I'm not. I have to test something and see what happens.
I felt a lot better afterwards, like a tremendous boost in energy.
We're all different. I recommend a personal test to find out if it agrees with you.
Posts: 13116 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Hi, Sauna`s are supposed to be good for many things, mostly detox, also heart, I heard neuropathy to get juices flowing better for nerves to settle down. I also tried mine at fair, had been in sauna`s before never sweat. Those were old ones. These new sauna`s have lot more to offer. Sure helps my inj. spine also I just keep rolling back forth where bars to administer heat. Feels great. For those with bad backs. Huggggssss,To ALL IN NEED,Kerry
Posts: 746 | From Clearwater/fl/Pinellas | Registered: Jun 2003
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