Topic: My LLMD's P.A. thinks joint/arm pain "tennis elbow"!
Tricky Tickey
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26546
posted
Yep, that's right. Saw him today & told him how my arms are still hurting in the elbow, up my arm, into the shoulder, muscles, etc. Now wrists.
So he does this test. I hold my arm out & he mashes in a certain part on the side of my elbow & OUCH, nearly takes me to my knees. The I tried to grasp & pick up an object a certain way, it hurt.
So he clamps his hand around my arm with pressure. Then tells me to pick up the object. NO PAIN!..go figure. He said to get a brace for "tennis elbow" or I guess some call it tendonitis.
I thought it was Lyme symptoms, he doesn't know, but what ever has caused the symptom, it hurts. Funny, though, it slowly starts & get exceedingly worse just since I got Lyme. Hmmmmm, coincidence? I don't think so.
Oh yeah, forgot to say. I go 2 more months on meds, then OFF!!!!!
-------------------- Early Disseminated LD- 2010. Currently doing acupuncture and yoga. Negative Igenex (IND & Pos Bands) ISSUES AFTER: Tendonitis, letter reversal, Low immune system. PREVENTION:SaltC,Iodine,Humaworm, Chiropractic. Posts: 1013 | From In a van down by the river. | Registered: Jun 2010
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posted
I was thinking about you!! Hmmm.. I am not LL enough to really say, but it seems to me it's more than tennis elbow.
I am so happy you are down to 2 months, been sending lots of prayers, and hoping you continue to recover and are given full health back.
If your elbow keeps hurting, I would let them know at the next appt, that you feel it's related to the lyme more than anything else. It may be as I have read on some of this, that old injuries, or weakness, like old sprains, breaks, etc, can become very inflammed and made worse by lyme. From what I can understand (still learning and new)~ Lyme can like a spy, find our "weak" areas and then just raise havoc. Did everything else go well for you? I hope you are feeling better, besides the tender elbow, ouch! xxxxx
Posts: 41 | From Springdale Arkansas | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
I was thinking about you!! Hmmm.. I am not LL enough to really say, but it seems to me it's more than tennis elbow.
I am so happy you are down to 2 months, been sending lots of prayers, and hoping you continue to recover and are given full health back.
If your elbow keeps hurting, I would let them know at the next appt, that you feel it's related to the lyme more than anything else. It may be as I have read on some of this, that old injuries, or weakness, like old sprains, breaks, etc, can become very inflammed and made worse by lyme. From what I can understand (still learning and new)~ Lyme can like a spy, find our "weak" areas and then just raise havoc. Did everything else go well for you? I hope you are feeling better, besides the tender elbow, ouch! xxxxx
Posts: 41 | From Springdale Arkansas | Registered: Aug 2010
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17hens
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 23747
posted
I had that exact same thing last summer ('09). Was just like tennis elbow but I knew it was lyme related.
I know now I've had Bart for 5 or so years, but when I was bitten in April '09, and got symptoms 3 days later that turned debilitating, that's when the elbow started.
I'd describe it as feeling like I was the tinman in the wizard of oz and my elbow had rusted. If it would have made a sound when it moved, it would have creaked.
When it started it was just sore, but every week it got worse and worse to the point where I could barely move it and I sure as heck couldn't carry the water bucket down to the chicken coop with that arm.
I was on doxy for 3 months that summer. Not consecutive months, but it sure helped so that's something (not sure what).
I remember that my heels started to bother me in July and that by October I felt like my heel had replaced my elbow. In otherwards, the elbow no longer hurt (no reason, nothing I did for it, just went away) but my foot pain was becoming plantar fasciitis pain.
So I guess what happened was I gave up tennis elbow for plantar fasciitis.
You know, come to think of it, another symptom I had BEFORE that bite, that convinced me I had had something (Bart?) for a while was two years prior my shoulder started killing me, just out of the blue.
After almost a year of excruciating pain, I was diagnosed with a rotator cuff injury, although exrays showed nothing was wrong and PT only made things worse. It just healed on it's own over time. One thing I did do was make sure I kept using it, moving it, so it wouldn't freeze, as I did think it was a r.c. injury.
Don't know if my story will help you at all, arkie. Maybe you can find something in it.
If you think your elbow is a symptom, then be sure to stop abx 2 months after you are symptom free. Not too soon!
-------------------- "My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." Psalms 73:26
bit 4/09, diagnosed 1/10 Posts: 3043 | From PA | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Why are you going off meds in two months if you're still having symptoms?
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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sutherngrl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16270
posted
I've got the tennis elbow and the plantar fasciitis at the same time! Lots of fun.
Yes, LD can cause tendonitis and or tennis elbow, if thats what your doc wants to call it. And a brace will help. I wore a brace when I was having issues that felt like corpral tunnel syndrome and it really helped.
I also had "frozen shoulders" caused by LD. Had it in both shoulders. Lost all range of motion and was in excruitiating pain. Did PT which did absolutely nothing for them. They healed eventually after I started antibiotic treatment.
Stick with antibiotics until you have been symptom free at least 3 months.
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
sutherngrl, what antibiotics were you using that helped with the shoulder problem? I've been on abx for a year now, treating babesia (still have 2 strains of bart, and Lyme to treat). Joint pain has not historically been one of my LD symptoms. However, just recently my shoulders are awful. Poor range of motion, weak, cracking, very painful. Keeps me up at night. Yours is the first post I've read about someone else having this. I currently take azithromycin, artemisinin, and mepron. Thanks.
Posts: 212 | From San Francisco Bay Area, California | Registered: Aug 2010
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17hens
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 23747
posted
INEBG, sounds like you're treating for Babesia. I think it was BArt that caused those problems for me - consider adding Bactrim DS to the mix.
-------------------- "My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." Psalms 73:26
bit 4/09, diagnosed 1/10 Posts: 3043 | From PA | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
I have some kind of problem in my arm that started right after I ramped up my abx with a new LLMD.
I believe it is Lyme related but maybe it could be dx'ed as tennis elbow, too.
Mine was the worst when I first started these abx, but has gotten a lot better.
I agree with the others that I wouldn't stop the abx until all your symtoms are gone.
Posts: 984 | From US | Registered: Dec 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- I have major trouble with my elbows - and wrists.
It can be from lyme/TBD and still be called tennis elbow for an easy description - and have a brace help - as long as you are also treating all causes. It's likely no one thing.
Treat from all angles: address infection(s); support supplements; myofascial massage &/or acupuncture; and egonomic assessment.
Lymph movement is also vital to help relive pain. Yoga, Tai Chi or Qi Gong, warm (not hot) bath in epson salts.
You may need more MAGNESIUM, D3, B-6. Taurine, too.
To assess your ergonomics - how you use your body in all functions. Start with a search for: Feldenkrais Method
Topic: How to find a LL ND (naturopathic doctor), acupuncturist, etc.
Includes how to find an ILADS-educated LL ND, an Acupuncturist, a doctor of Oriental Medicine (O.M.D.), or a doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine (D.Ay.), certified herbalists or nutritionists, etc. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Tricky Tickey
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26546
posted
quote:Originally posted by sixgoofykids: Why are you going off meds in two months if you're still having symptoms?
Why am I going off meds in 2 months? Because all my other symptoms have virtually disappeared in the last month. I went from a 2 to a 10 in anxiety/depression. Sleep from 2 to a 9. Incredible. No more fatigue.
He said come back in 2 months & "we'll see about getting off the meds".
He did not sound like he was convinced my arms/elbow problem is Lyme. He said, You must have strained it doing something. I've been doing nothing different at all. I've continued working out, slowed down when really sick. I kept moving.
I never never had a pain in my elbows until this past summer after I got sick. It just steadily got worse. It is tennis elbow but I know in my heart caused by the Lyme.
-------------------- Early Disseminated LD- 2010. Currently doing acupuncture and yoga. Negative Igenex (IND & Pos Bands) ISSUES AFTER: Tendonitis, letter reversal, Low immune system. PREVENTION:SaltC,Iodine,Humaworm, Chiropractic. Posts: 1013 | From In a van down by the river. | Registered: Jun 2010
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
You and your rat friends...
Am J Trop Med Hyg. 1990 Feb;42(2):165-74.
Experimental chronic Lyme borreliosis in Lewis rats. Moody KD, Barthold SW, Terwilliger GA, Beck DS, Hansen GM, Jacoby RO.
Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut.
Abstract The course of Lyme borreliosis in LEW/N rats inoculated intraperitoneally as infants with 10(6) Borrelia burgdorferi was followed for 360 days.
Spirochetes were detected in the blood through 30 days, in the brain through 60 days, and persisted in the spleen, liver, kidneys and articular tissue through 360 days.
*** Acute exudative arthritis, tendonitis, and bursitis were evident in multiple joints by day 30.***
Arthritis regressed thereafter but capsular fibrosis and lymphoplasmacytic infiltrates persisted throughout the study.
Several rats developed exacerbations of acute arthritis within days 180-360, a pattern similar to that encountered in human Lyme disease.
Rats had a high prevalence of nonsuppurative myocarditis and vasculitis during days 90-360.
Spirochetes were visualized by microscopy in joints and other tissues during the first month of infection, but were seen only sporadically thereafter.
All rats seroconverted to B. burgdorferi by day 30. IgM titers persisted and IgG titers rose progressively through day 360. Immunoblots revealed IgM reactivity to a single 41 kDa protein until 360 days, when reactivity to a 60 kDa protein emerged. IgG reactivity occurred against progressively more proteins with time, indicating continued antigenic stimulation.
Chronic and recurrent arthritic lesions and myocardial involvement suggest that the rat is a reliable model for further investigation.
Pathological manifestations in murine Lyme disease: association with tissue invasion and spirochete persistence. Weis JJ, Yang L, Seiler KP, Silver RM.
University of Utah School of Medicine, Department of Pathology, Salt Lake City 84132, USA.
Abstract The clinical manifestations of human Lyme disease present with a spectrum of tissue or organ involvement and severity of symptoms.
***The murine model of Lyme disease has proved to be an accurate reflection of many of the human symptoms of disease and has been particularly useful for studying development of subacute arthritis and tendonitis.***
Direct tissue invasion by Borrelia burgdorferi and persistence of high levels of spirochetes in tissues are important components of arthritis development.
The outer-surface lipoproteins contain a biologically active lipid-modified moiety with potent ability to stimulate inflammatory cytokine production and other inflammatory mediators such as nitric oxide.
Localized inflammation stimulated by these lipoproteins may be the trigger for neutrophil infiltration, synovial proliferation, and other events associated with this arthritis.
Invasion of maternal uterine tissue, but not direct invasion of fetal tissue, is associated with low levels of pregnancy loss in mice infected during gestation, consistent with the detrimental effect of inflammatory cytokines on pregnancy.
Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
One more! Do I get some cheese now that I've exposed my little rat friends?
Infect Immun. 1998 Sep;66(9):4557-9.
E and P selectins are not required for resistance to severe murine lyme arthritis. Seiler KP, Ma Y, Weis JH, Frenette PS, Hynes RO, Wagner DD, Weis JJ.
Department of Pathology, University of Utah School of Medicine, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA.
Abstract
***Borrelia burgdorferi-induced arthritis in mice is characterized by tendonitis, synovitis, and inflammatory-cell infiltrate, predominantly of neutrophils.***
Because genetic deficiency in E and P selectins results in delayed recruitment of neutrophils to sites of inflammation, mice with this deficiency were tested for their response to infection with B. burgdorferi.
E and P selectins were not required for the control of B. burgdorferi numbers, nor did deficiency in E and P selectins result in alteration of arthritis severity.
Tricky Tickey
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26546
posted
My theory is this: Lyme attacks vulnerable areas of the body. Joints included, migratory. I never had this type pain before. Then BOOM! I get sick with what we assume is Lyme due to clinical diagnosis, then my elbows start hurting. Then it changes.
Goes down the arm. I'd continue typing on the key board regardless. But no extra activity. Just resistance weights at Curves, not excessive nor did I do the excercise if it hurt.
If the body is in a weakened state, then it breaks down. So I guess that's what happened. I don't know, my PA said he didn't know either. Who knows if it's a direct cause from Lyme? Both probable & possible, in my opinion. If I still hurt in 2 months when I go back, we will address it.
In the meantime, I use a brace, continue taking my ABX, keep taking Wobenzym, working out at Curves & chiropractic treatment 3 times per weak with spine Re-hab/physical therapy at home.
I won't sit back & let this thing beat me. I'm going to get my body to working with no interference AND with a healthy spine, since it controls the whole nervous system.
-------------------- Early Disseminated LD- 2010. Currently doing acupuncture and yoga. Negative Igenex (IND & Pos Bands) ISSUES AFTER: Tendonitis, letter reversal, Low immune system. PREVENTION:SaltC,Iodine,Humaworm, Chiropractic. Posts: 1013 | From In a van down by the river. | Registered: Jun 2010
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Working out at Curves may be the problem. "Tennis elbow" is compounded by repetitive stress.
I know that I am unable to grip anything without further stressing my elbow. I would reassess any workout plan that has you gripping and putting stress on your hands, wrists or elbows. Your elbow may need intense rest, along with treatment for infection and very specific myofascial massage.
Find someone who is EXPERT in ergonomics. Most who work at gyms are not to the point where you need them to be. Someone trained in the FELDENKRAIS method is but, even better would be a LL Feldenkrais professional.
Your spine/rehab person may be good - but if they have you gripping anything, they may not be the best person for your elbow. Avoiding gripping has been very helpful in order to let my elbows not get worse.
When you walk on a treadmill, if you hold on, do not make a fill grasp but just rest your open hand with thumb gently securing you. Same with driving. Do not fold your hands all the way around the steering wheel and grip hard. Lighten up.
I don't drive any longer but the last few years that I did, it was possible to do so without ever making a full wrapping around grasp. A Feldenkrais therapist taught me other ways to do all that.
In addition to treating infection (always) . . . you might also consider LIGHTWORKS, an infrared light wand.
While I still have a very long way to go, andrographis has been the best help to help reduce pain in joints (along with magnesium). Still, until the infection(s) are fully addressed and - uh word loss - well, until nearly into remission, you may have to be much kinder to your elbow and really load up on antioxidants.
JOHN F. BARNES, P.T. is one of the top experts on myofascial release. After a surgery, this can help reduce - or soften - adhesions that typically occur.
Many other good links through Google, Bing and some video introductions on YouTube.
=================================
Low impact, non-aerobic exercises that are very powerful in a deep and gentle way:
Tai Chi can be excellent. So can Qi Gong (Chi Gong), which requires less turning of the head and less sideways movement. One of the most healing styles of Qi Gong is Soaring Crane. With either Tai Chi or Qi Gong, be sure it's a healing style. Some are more aggressive in nature.
Restorative Yoga is a good style. -
[ 09-22-2010, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
One of my first LD symptoms was "tennis elbow in both elbows.
Exercise helped a lot----take a light weight---small phone book---and extend your arm & lift it with arm held straight out in front of you above you head. I did 10 each arm 3x day for 4 months & pain got much less troublesome.
Doxy also seemed to help. Also did wrist, forearm stretches (google "tennis elbow" & "golf elbow" for the stretches)---they are pain relivers.
Good luck
Posts: 213 | From ohio | Registered: Jul 2006
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