posted
My heart is heavyand my pan is both physical and emotional.
Our beautiful daughter is bright, witty, funny, etc., but she is obese.. I've always emphasized loving your body, and she has a good sense of herself.
At her workup, I learned how much she now weighs. She needs to lose, and has now expressed a desire to lose, about 100 pounds. She is being tested next week for PCOS, and her bloodwork came back that she is pre-diabetic at this point. (History of weight issues, PCOS, metabolic syndrome, etc. in our families.)
She eats healthy foods at meals, but I think she snacks too much and doesn't exercise much. Due to being so sick these last few years, I've not been able to exercise with her as I used to.
Here's where I need your advice. She wants to get healthy before she goes into her final year of high school next fall., then off to college. (Gulp and sob at that thought.)
She asked about doing meal replacement diets for a month to help her get started. What do you all think? Have any of you dealt with this? Ideas to help support her? Resources you can recommend?
Please keep her in your prayers and me as I try to help her do this in order to avert health issues as much as she can. My heart aches for this intelligent, wise, and beautiful daughter.
-------------------- 'Hope' is a thing with feathers, that perches in the soul-- Emily Dickinson Posts: 160 | From Indiana | Registered: Nov 2012
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Dogsandcats
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posted
I have always battled my weight, even when young. It is not fun at all.
I will be praying for both of you as you work together choosing the right plan.
-------------------- God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.
Billy Graham Posts: 1967 | From California | Registered: Oct 2010
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- Meal replacements are cruel, torturing, punishing and most contain crap. Even the best are ground to a pulp, put through high heat and generally turn to cardboard - not real food as nature intended.
Most contain this stuff - or are wrapped in plastics that, themselves, can cause obesity:
GMO foods that destroy the GI Tract; Gluten; Dairy. -
Food is full of nutrients and that's what required of every body, whatever the size.
It's not wise to miss meals and snacks are good, too. If real food, planned well.
As for obesity, there are many reasons.
If fake foods are consumed, they can contribute.
Celiac? Stealth infections? Adrenal or other metabolic trouble? If she has stress, that can cause obesity. Adrenal support may be required.
Exercise may not be safe if she has a stealth infection that is creating the weight problem.
Still, starting with something she enjoys and is low impact, for they joy of it, just to move at any speed comfortable for her. Tai Chi may be best. Water movement good but I suggest no harsh structured classes if they have a boot camp attitude.
EXERCISE INTOLERANCE is (partially) explained in the article: "when exercise doesn't work out" (and what we can do about that)
ADRENAL, CARDIAC, MITOCHONDRIA & MYELIN SUPPORT - that all helps movement better work for us
Styles discussed: Pilates; Qi Gong; Tai Chi; Yoga; water; strolling; etc. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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posted
- Rather than a meal replacement, SPIRULINA can be a nice pick me up. With an apple or nuts.
HEMP PROTEIN POWDER, too.
But that's not a replacement. It's real food. She should never, ever think that she should deprive herself of a meal when a meal is due.
This is not a character flaw for which she should be punished or punish herself.
If she is asking about a meal replacement, she's already crossed to the line to thinking that she either does not need or deserve real food. And that kind of thinking is very dangerous.
She may want to rethink what food really is and learn how we - all of us - need it to fuel our cells. Her brain is still growing. Her body is still making important tissue. It needs real food. Real protein, Real complex carbohydrates and Real fatty acids.
A naturopathic doctor may be the best place to begin. They have excellent education in this area and can help on several fronts. -
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linky123
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posted
The only way I am able to take off weight is to cut out carbohydrates i.e. things like starches, and sugars.
She might try Sugar Busters, or something like that.
Meal replacement is tough to stick to and doesn't really teach good eating habits.
Also, if you starve yourself like that, the metabolism tends to slow down, and when you start eating real food, the weight comes back on.
You might get all her hormone levels checked, such as thyroid etc.
-------------------- 'Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.' Matthew 11:28 Posts: 2607 | From Hooterville | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
Keebler and Linky, thank you. I think the hormones and some genetic predispositions contribute to this.
I am more concerned about health and long term impact. I also am carrying some guilt about how unaware I've been of her struggles and gains in weight the last couple of years.
I recommended making a food menu together since we enjoy cooking together. I think she wants to see quick results. Sigh.
Trying to walk a line of being supportive but not let her do somethng dangerous or with no nutrition.
What about her making a smoothie for breakfast? Now she almost never eats breakfast, and my guess is that she eats little (or garbage junk food) for lunch so as no to stand out. Due to this, she's starving when she gets home, so she eats a "snack" that could be healthy.
She's never said much about her weight before, and with her activities, she gets sporadic busy times of cardio. Now, this came up yesterday.
With some of her friends getting serious boyfriends (argh) and prom, perhaps that's why. Or, it may be the doc check up this week.
Anyone know of a good online weight/exercise/nutrition group especially for teens? She may respond better to that than my she did to my suggestion of weight watchers last night.
-------------------- 'Hope' is a thing with feathers, that perches in the soul-- Emily Dickinson Posts: 160 | From Indiana | Registered: Nov 2012
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posted
Hey Dove. I need to tell you something that I believe passionately...meal replacements and fad diets do not work and in fact help to contribute to eating disorders in young women.
My best friend Jenn was a chubby young girl..not obese like your daughter, but overweight. Well, her parents decided to put her on a meal replacement plan because they thought it would help her to lose weight. She ended up developing life threatening anorexia. I watched her almost die for several years. She is fully recovered now, but I am telling you from personal experience that these fad diets can contribute to eating disorders and that is the last thing I know that you want for your daughter.
Just my two cents. Jess
Posts: 870 | From ct | Registered: Nov 2012
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MannaMe
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posted
Read Dr Diana Schwarzbein's book, The Schwarzbein principle, THE PROGRAM loosing weight the healthy way.
It has common sense and is a healthy way of living. So many diets are not healthy and then when you've lost the weight, going back to old eating habits has you right back where you started.
Posts: 2249 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2011
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quote:Originally posted by linky123: [QB] The only way I am able to take off weight is to cut out carbohydrates i.e. things like starches, and sugars.
- Same here. Read linky's entire post again.
MannaMe also has a good idea:
Dr Diana Schwarzbein's book, The Schwarzbein Principle
She does not have to starve herself to get the weight off. She must eat healthy fats or she will be HUNGRY and will not stick to the diet.
Stay away from carbs and white foods. She'll basically be eating a candida diet to lose weight. She will not be hungry.
Also.. buy as much organic as possible. She needs REAL food with nutrients. Meal replacements are processed foods.. no nutrients to speak of and full of junk.
Hope she can do this and feels better doing it!!
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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surprise
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posted
Exercise.
Can you walk with her everyday?
Exercise makes me feel so much better.
Clean out what's in your pantry. I'm sorry to say this, but if she is 100 pounds overweight, there can't be good food selections around.
I've never had a weight problem, but after having babies,
and trying to lose that weight, I was strict about only having healthy snacks and meals inside my house.
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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Keebler
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Locate a ND in Indiana -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- Skipping breakfast, not having a good lunch can spell disaster, of course.
Q: What about a smoothie for breakfast?
I think it's a very bad idea if just that. It's loaded with simple sugars, anytime any food is pulverized. WHOLE food is the best way to go.
Sure, some smoothies can be healthful but two reasons many "do" these are: to save time; to get dessert feel.
Doing it right, a smoothie takes some time to prepare. By the time you wash a good variety of brightly colored veggies, a few dark berries, the right kind of protein (and other than HEMP protein most in powder form are garbage).
If whey is used, it's still not enough for a meal. And whey looses its properties when combined with fruits or put through a blender.
To help a smoothie gain some longevity, zuchinni included can help. Flax seed meal, too.
A smoothie WITH breakfast is a wonderful idea. But just a regular sized glass, 6 - 8 ounces. NUTS can give it the creaminess.
Still, it's a dangerous routine to skip a meal in favor of a liquid meal.
EGGS, 2 vegetables, one fruit, maybe some Quinoa is a good basic breakfast.
Sardines, Salmon are excellent for breakfast. Chicken Soup, too.
Extra virgin olive oil, nut oils, avocado oils . . . Flax or Hemp Oil . . . .
WHOLE FOODS to cover the necessary protein, complex carbs (whole veggies lightly steamed or sauted, whole fruit), good fats.
GREEN TEA and an apple.
NUTS on hand at all times. A good "first breakfast" while preparing a real meal: 3 Brazil Nuts. -
[ 04-13-2013, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- The title of this thread is so very disrubing to me. That's what they said about me as a teen and I am absolutely appauled that, as a nation, we've not figured this out yet and there is such stigma to size and judgement about that number on the clothing tag or on the scale.
By discounting the goodness of a person with a "but" by adding what is really still an insult as long as it's connected to a "but" is really hard for everyone overweight to know that's how they are seen . . . .
flawed essentially and in the most important measure of person by our society, their size.
The last place ribbon in pinned on them as they are passed over as being worthy - the last place ribbon is usually that "but she has a nice personality"
Decade after decade that kind of abuse has been accepted and it's heartbreaking to see.
This is a medical problem. And it sounds like a starvation problem, of sorts, too. And it is very common. And it's driving the obesity crises in our world - along with the idea that food should be instant.
I starved all through childhood, my teens and college. I was heavy, even though I ate only about 600-800 calories day. I starved, literally but I was 30 pounds overweight, nothing could change that. I exercised, I never ate "bad" foods, etc. I know now that I likely had lyme even in my youth. I do for sure, though, that I had adrenal dysfunction that went unaddressed.
But the depriving myself of food, having only the 70's version of a diet drink for breakfast, salad for lunch . . . well, that likely made it impossible to learn. I thought I was stupid -- BUT I had a good personality. And I was dying inside. Just dying.
Contrary to what many think, obesity can be caused by malnutrition, too, especially if there are other factors that cause inflammation, swelling, etc.
Eveyone thought I ate behind their backs. I did not. But there were times when I needed something quick to keep from passing out and, sure enough, someone always saw and misinterpreted those actions.
I had come back to just say I found this an excellent idea to break some abusive rituals:
GET THE SCALES OUT OF THE HOUSE
DO NOT WEIGH - DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE NUMBER, OR EVEN THE WEIGHT - do not talk about clothing size or "when" referring to weight or size.
Those words are best exchanged to "when . . . feeling better, stronger, healthier" . . . "when endurance improves" . . . etc. but still, just if in passing, not the focus.
Focus on today. Today's nutrients and fabulous flavors to be enjoyed.
FOCUS: HEALTHFUL LIFESTYLE - along with the medical expertise that, IMO, a naturopathic doctor is best to provide as the main "teacher" here and also to help with support supplements and food ideas. It's where they shine.
Acupuncture treatments can also be of help.
By getting the scales out of the house, training herself to NOT look at a scale as the ruler for herself as a human . . . that is just a start.
The focus is not on the number, on the actions and on the quality of nutrients spread out all day long.
I am certain that if she sees a good ND or otherwise has a good medical workup and attention to the endocrine support, etc. that if she maintains a healthful lifestyle and comes to
ENJOY FOOD
she will feel better. For now, that's the first sign of being on the right track. Forget the number. The number will improve and there is a time for that, later, but not everyday.
And, if she has infection-connection or cushings or other adrenal issues, the weight may not change until all that is addressed.
Still, lifestyle matters and my guess is that once she sees that she has actually been starving herself of nutrients and that real food is required for her to have a life and a future . . . she will find a friend in the real flavors of good foods.
And she will enjoy going for walk and just getting out and about more.
I also suspect that the food for school lunches is not a good friend to many students. Very few schools have adopted real nutrition programs. And that's a shame.
I cannot stress enough the importance of a naturopathic consult. I sure wish I had known of their existence decades before I discovered them.
Best case would be a LL ND, of course, as she could have lyme that has been undetected. Obesity is a major symptom. A LL ND would be more likely to know about other stealth infections and also about parasites.
PARASITES are likely an issue but no regular doctor is going to know all they need to about this matter. A LLND will know more, though we have more to discover.
However, even a ND who is not LL will have much to offer regading nutrition advice - and a good place for your daughter to share her feelings. That's essential, too, but with someone who understands how the environment and other factors could be underneath all this, too. -
[ 04-13-2013, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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linky123
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posted
Do you by any chance have a fir sauna? They are supposed to be good for weight loss.
I think they help eliminate toxins which are stored in the fat tissues, also help regulate hormones.
They raise the core temp too, which helps speeed up the metabolism.
They are also beneficial for lyme tx.
I have one and love it. I feel so much better after sitting in it.
-------------------- 'Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.' Matthew 11:28 Posts: 2607 | From Hooterville | Registered: Apr 2009
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Keebler
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Environmental Working Group (EWG) uses the power of information to protect public health and the environment.
Find safe products for food and home environment. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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posted
- VINYL SHOWER CURTAIN? Beauty Products, nail polish, hair sprays, etc . . . the effects of such chemicals is discussed above yet there will be some more specific lists to be found to create an eco-safe environment. All this matters. But so does:
SLEEP HYGIENE is also a topic strongly connected to inflammation (which results in weight gain).
A good start to that detail is in the Adrenal Support thread but it does deserve its own mention.
Light in the eyes too late at night, any electronics in the bedroom . . . all this can affect weight, too. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Dove-I am sorry for your pain. After the births of my children, I did Weight watchers each time. It is a smart meal plan and will help teach your daughter what to eat. It helped me so much and I was an adult at the time.
You go for weekly weigh in which really helped keep me on track.
This plan will teach her how and what to eat for the rest of her life. I highly recommend it. She can do this!
Posts: 238 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2013
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Keebler
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posted
- It also helps to have others go to the supermarket -- or just go only to FARMERS' MARKETS where it's mostly sheer goodness.
Even if you have to pay someone to shop, at the grocery store, it's worth it to not even see most of what's in there.
If there, though, the outer walls likely have most of the real foods. Do not even go down the aisles of boxed foods.
AND avoid the aisles of soap as the scents can knock your brain to the moon and bad choices can come from that "hit" that is very real from chemical exposure.
Make a date with the produce manager at the best store near you. Really, it could be a family affair.
While going gluten free may hold great benefit, most packaged foods that are GF are still processed and full of additives or simple sugars.
However, a date with the person at the store who is their GF ambassador can help you find the good GF items such as
MARY'S GONE CRACKERS (the crackers, not cookies). These are whole grain in the true sense, GF and very tasty. They can substitute for a corn tortilla, too.
The problem with grocery stores, though, is the check out aisle with candy bars -- that is just not something anyone needs to see. It would bother anyone.
And they never have the good dark chocolate (85%) there, just the bad kinds.
The bakery and deli in stores bring in a lot of money, so they have these very tempting. That's why I think it's best to just send someone else so that your list is made.
Of course, it takes experience to really know HOW to shop. Most people don't know how to properly choose vegetables.
And, if there, it is nice to see all the offerings in the vegetable and fruit department (be sure your daughter does get good low sugar fruits in all colors).
NUTS, buy raw, not roasted. When they get hot, the stability of the oil is good only for a very short time. roast or toast at home, just before eating. It makes a wonderful difference. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
I need to lose pounds, but I know when I can't lose weight and cravve all the bad things, my
inflammation numbers are up. What is her c-reactive protein? Trying to walk distance, not
speed on a treadmill and get circulation going. Try to teach portion control-- you can have that
brownie as long as you don't eat the whole pan. I should practice what I preach Anyway, the
freshman 10 (pounds) happens. For me, I didn't eat like that at home so I lost a bunch my
freshman year. I think I weighed 110 lbs at 5'7".Eating poorly feeds inflammation too so I
agree that choosing a diet that you cook as opposed to eating little boxed meals would be
optimal. Have you considered weight watchers or TOPS programs that have support?
Posts: 482 | From Oregon | Registered: Feb 2011
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sammy
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13952
posted
Consider joining weight watchers with her. You can even do it online together.
If you do it together you will have each others support and accountability for you to both to eat healthy.
Weight watchers gradually teaches lifestyle changes. It is flexible and allows you to eat what you like but sometimes that means smaller portion sizes. It also encourages more real foods like vegs and fruits.
You are even encouraged/rewarded when you do activities and exercises. This may be incentive for your daughter to exercise. The real idea is that she may find something that she will love to do for life.
I'm a believer that it works because I've seen the results first hand. My sister was over 120lbs overweight when she graduated from college. The freshman 15+ multiplied every year until she graduated and found that she wasn't happy with herself.
It took my sister a year to lose the 100lbs, and a couple more months to lose the last few that were the hardest to get off.
I liked that the diet didn't interfere with her social life. She could still have fun and go out with her friends. I think that this helped her to be able to stick with it.
She's been able to maintain her weight loss with healthy eating for 4yrs now. I think that's the true test of a diet, will the results last.
Posts: 5237 | From here | Registered: Nov 2007
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Kudzuslipper
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posted
Dove i applaud you for supporting your daughter. As someone who has been heavy my whole life too. I think the trick for you will be to be supportive but not make her feel that you are judging her. It's good that she wants to do this. I never had a chance to decide on my own. But was taken to diet doctors, given diet pills, put on extreme diets, and made to feel that all my other many accomplishments didn't matter as long as I was fat. This has followed me into middle age.
I just ran across a book that might be a good fit. It is the south beach gluten free diet plan. (Or just south beach if gluten isn't an issue). Like weight watchers south beach is a good moderate plan but it is based on low carb, good protein and veggies. and phase 1 can provide a jump start without getting into bad eating patterns. What I liked about this book, was he is very moderate. He never says you can never have bread again. And if there is a stealth bacteria problem this is a good low carb life style. Especially phase 1. It basically is a Lyme diet... Good protein and veggies. Real food. I believe there is also an online support group you can join.
Other online support myfitnesspal.com
And although I have never used it. I have heard great things about sparkpeople.com
Good luck to you both.
Posts: 1728 | From USA | Registered: May 2011
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posted
Kudzu, thanks for the bok suggestion. We're going to the library on Tuesday, so we can look for that.
I too have struggled my whole life, and I also felt so judged when I ate healthy, worked out, did sports, and was still never as thin as my friends. My grandma always helped by telling me that my ancestors were all great farmers and needed the extra muscles to make the farms work well.
Great idea about sparkpeople; she told me this afternoon that she is really more anxious about the future health considerations than anything and wants to "measure herself better" in terms of snacks and getting the right portions. She told me that she'd found sparkteen (I think that's what she said it's called).
Had a girl in Girl Scouts whose mother put her in camps, did diet pillls for her at 13, and locked up the food. That young lady, as long as I knew her, could only think of food.
Proud of my girl. She looked up some Cooking Light recipes and made the family grilled chicken and black bean burritos on whole wheat tortillas for dinner. As we cleared the table, her dad and brother complimented her, and she said, "and it's healthy, too!"
-------------------- 'Hope' is a thing with feathers, that perches in the soul-- Emily Dickinson Posts: 160 | From Indiana | Registered: Nov 2012
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Kudzuslipper
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posted
I think your girl is gonna do just fine and dove please don't be too harsh on yourself. You sound like a great mom, even with fighting Lyme. Posts: 1728 | From USA | Registered: May 2011
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beaches
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posted
Dove, your daughter sounds like she is very empowered, which is just wonderful, and that's due to YOUR influence as her mom.
Re: your girl scout experience, how god-awful for a mother to put her 13 yo child through camps, diet pills and locking up food. How can a kid NOT have an eating disorder after that? UGH. Sad thing is that the mom most likely had the best of intentions, or at least what she thought they were.
Posts: 1885 | From here | Registered: Jul 2012
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Dogsandcats
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posted
I came home one day and everything sweet or salty or "good" was gone from the house. I got "ice milk" occasionally for desert. It tasted just like it sounds. The milk was non fat (which isn't bad unless you were used to regular your whole life).
My mother didn't want to pay the store prices for the "chubby" clothes (so fun going shopping and asking for the CHUBBY clothes), so she made them. To save even more money, she made them a tad larger for the next year.
The teasing of the neighborhood kids wasn't as bad as the story at home. No one ever talked about it or encouraged me. It was like the elephant in the living room..LOL..(oh yes, my brother used to yell "whale on the beach" when we were at the beach)
So with my sad story - I applaud you for listening, discussing and offering options. It is much easier to lose weight with support from family.
Your love and concern will get her thru this. Just knowing she is loved no matter how she looks is the key to it all. you sound like you are doing just fine.
PS: My mother used to whisper -loudly -"she has such a pretty face only if..." and I know they heard. I wanted to crawl in a hole.
-------------------- God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.
Billy Graham Posts: 1967 | From California | Registered: Oct 2010
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beaches
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posted
Oh gosh Dogsandcats, what you went through is just awful. I can't even imagine what that must have been like for you.
(( HUGS ))
Dove just has thing so covered for her daughter.
Posts: 1885 | From here | Registered: Jul 2012
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beaches
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posted
My MIL (now deceased) was morbidly obese from the time I first knew her.
She unfortunately got to the point of being immobile and needing assistance with just about everything while just in her 50s.
Unfortunately, she passed away at just 59.
During my first child's early years, my husband declared that dessert was forbidden for her in his attempt to avoid his mother's fate.
We had somewhat of a showdown (and let's face it, mothers always win at these things).
Anyway, I had to emphasize to him that withholding "goodies" like the occasional ice-cream cone were harmful in the long run. I did not want my child to crave the "forbidden fruit" because it was forbidden.
I explained to my husband that he had to back off in this department because he was bringing his own baggage to the table (no pun intended) regarding his mother's issues.
I was in the habit of putting home-cooked meals on the table prior to my MIL's premature passing and prior to having my firstborn and I had no family history of obesity.
I told and still tell hubby to back away from the kitchen and let me handle what I handle best--my family's nutrition.
I do all the cooking. Stay out of my kitchen if you want to eat!
Posts: 1885 | From here | Registered: Jul 2012
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posted
Once in the school cafeteria, a child dropped a nilla wafer cookie that rolled under the salad bar. From across the room I noticed a little girl in about third grade "accidentally drop" her napkin. She bent down, reached under the salad bar, grabbed the cookie, and popped it into her mouth, looking around the whole time.
Another teacher and I stood there with our mouths open. Later I saw her "fashion model thin" mother, and I was told that the little girl was not allowed any food treats, even at birthday parties or special gatherings because h mother didn't like "weak-willed, overweight, lazy" people.
Things like that really made an impression on me. I don't really remember ever thinking much about food and health or weight and health when I was in high school.
Food is fuel, and food is fellowship time. I'm just glad my daughter talks to me about all of this.
Dogsandcats, I remember the chubby girls' rack of clothing at Montgomery Wards. They were all so matronly looking, even for 10-12 yr olds. I was the one who began sewing my own clothes because my home ec teacher taught me how to resize a stylish pattern if I needed to.
Isn't it interesting how our past carries over? Beaches, I know what you mean by the taste of the ice milk. Mom used to get it once in awhile when the doc emphasized that she needed to get her diabetes under better control. It was so icky.
-------------------- 'Hope' is a thing with feathers, that perches in the soul-- Emily Dickinson Posts: 160 | From Indiana | Registered: Nov 2012
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Dogsandcats
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posted
Wonder why I have a weight problem......hhmmmmm.
My husband and his children are all into nutrition and exercise. They all show each other their bumps and how cut they are ( don't touch me, I am cut, you will need a bandaid..)
My husband use to make truck back up noises when I would get out of the car, like I needed a crane. He doesn't say that now. My son, sad to say, learned some of his ill traits. I am working on that!
I try to walk my dog on days that I can. It is slowly dropping.
Soooo, again Dove - you are doing great with your daughter, she is gonna be just fine.
-------------------- God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.
Billy Graham Posts: 1967 | From California | Registered: Oct 2010
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