posted
can someone get a co infection or lyme through our saliva? i know breast milk and blood are contagious but was wondering about saliva, sorry if this has already been answered before, thanks radha
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Truthfinder
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posted
We just don't know, Radha.
What we DO know is that live Lyme spirochetes have been recovered from saliva, tears, vaginal fluid, semen, breast milk, and blood.
In a situation as serious as possible Lyme Disease transmission, my view is to assume that it is possible that infection can be transmitted by contact with any of these body fluids.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Aniek
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I don't think there is any clear research on this. But, I have had Lyme since I was 12. I have had multiple boyfriends and none of them contracted Lyme or Lyme like symptoms.
Diseases that are contagious through saliva usually spread quickly through small groups. Like the flu, meningitis, and mononucleosis. They spread like wild fire through college dorms, and other close quarters.
I haven't seen any sign that Lyme spreads that easily. With the difficulty in treating Lyme, I think it would be even more rampant than it is if is was spread through saliva.
Now, it is possible, that if the saliva got into an open wound it could cause Lyme. I do know that the danger with oral sex and HIV is that if there is any open wound in the mouth, throat, etc. that the HIV can cause an infection. But kissing is generally considered safe with HIV.
I know of entire families that have Lyme, but that can usually be explained through other forms of transmission.
-------------------- "When there is pain, there are no words." - Toni Morrison Posts: 4711 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Now, I've actually seen this occur- twice, so I know it happens via salva, but the questions are more complex than my answer.
First, I have an infected salavia gland under my tounge, visibly swollen, palatable to the touch.
Second, durring these transmissions of "Lyme" they occured after a kiss when the infected gland was inflamed.
Third, I don't think it was Borrelia, but rather Bartonella. My point is that I think bartonella can be transferred via salavia as its known to occur after the lick of a cat.
Fourth, both of these women developed huge lymph nodes more characteristic of Bartonella than Lyme.
So, while I'm not sure if Borrelia can be transmitted via salvia, Bartonella certainly can in my opinion.
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GiGi
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posted
Yes, Lyme Disease is transmittable via body fluids. The person being infected by another, though, may be healthy and have a fully functioning immune system and is able to eliminate the organisms successfully.
Take care.
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lpkayak
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posted
truthfinder-where are these studies?
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Truthfinder
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posted
Oh, and I forgot to mention spinal fluid and urine - Bb has been found there, too.
Ipkayak, here is one link to the information - scroll down - it is in one of those orange boxes. It tells what journal these findings were published in. There are other links, too, but I don't have any saved. I know that Lida Mattman, a leading microbiologist, is responsible for some of these findings. http://www.health4youonline.com/article_%20lyme_disease_its_evolving_and_the_time_is.htm
Also, we may be talking apples and oranges here. The Bb organism appears to be transmittable via body fluids. However, that does not mean the recipient of the organism is going to become symptomatic with ``Lyme Disease''. It is important that we all understand that. There are lots of people running around with Bb in their blood who have few or no symptoms at all. My boyfriend is one of them.
These people have not eliminated the Bb from their system, but apparently have enough immune strength to control the action of the organism. I fear, though, that if and when these people encounter some kind of immune system crisis or a difficult immune challenge, or if they somehow contract one of the many co-infections often found with Lyme, then the Lyme bug will then proliferate and begin to cause problems. Sometimes it takes years for someone to get sick. I saw in one article that there is documented evidence of at least one case where there was a 5-year delay of symptoms. Sorry, I don't know where I read that one.
Perhaps some of these people can be classified as ``carriers'' because they will never develop symptoms. We just don't know.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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treepatrol
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Biology professor, Lida Mattman, author of Cell Wall Deficient Forms: Stealth Pathogens, has been able to recover live spirochetes of Bb from
mosquitos, fleas, mites, semen, urine, blood, and spinal fluid. A factor contributing to making Bb so dangerous is that it can survive and spread without having a cell wall (cell wall-deficient CWD).
Lyme Disease is now thought to be the fastest growing infectious disease in the world. There are believed to be at least 200,000 new cases each year in the US and some experts think that as many as one in every 15 Americans is currently infected (20 million persons).
Dr. Robert Rowen knows a family where the mother's infection spread to 5 of her 6 children (1) all of whom recovered with appropriate therapy. It is difficult to believe that these children were all bitten by ticks and seems more plausible that person to person spread within the family caused this problem.
Dr. Mattman states "I'm convinced Lyme disease is transmissible from person to person." In 1995 Dr. Mattman obtained positive cultures for Bb from 43 of 47 persons with chronic illness. Only 1 of 23 control patients had a positive Bb culture.
Dr. Mattman has subsequently recovered Bb spirochetes from 8 out of 8 cases of Parkinson's Disease, 41 cases of multiple sclerosis, 21 cases of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and all tested cases of Alzheimer's Disease. The complete recovery of several patients with terminal amyotrophic lateral sclerosis after appropriate therapy shows the great importance of establishing the diagnosis of Lyme Disease. From: Link2
Transmission of the disease has been clearly documented after bites by fleas, mites, mosquitos and ticks. There is compelling evidence that Lyme disease (LD) can be spread by sexual and congenital transfer. One physician has cared for 5000 children with LD: 240 of these children were born with the disease.
Dr. Charles Ray Jones, the leading pediatric specialist on Lyme Disease, has found 12 breastfed children who have developed LD. Miscarriage, premature births, stillbirths, birth defects, and transplacental infection of the fetus have all been reported. Studies at the University of Vienna have found Bb in urine and breast milk of LD mothers. From: Link3
Theres a lot more to this artical.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
quote:Dr. Robert Rowen knows a family where the mother's infection spread to 5 of her 6 children all of whom recovered with appropriate therapy. It is difficult to believe that these children were all bitten by ticks and seems more plausible that person to person spread within the family caused this problem.
One could as well state: "It is difficult to believe that these children were all infected by transplacental transfer and seems more plausible that tick bites caused this problem."
quote:In 1995 Dr. Mattman obtained positive cultures for Bb from 43 of 47 persons with chronic illness. Only 1 of 23 control patients had a positive Bb culture.
Dr. Mattman has subsequently recovered Bb spirochetes from 8 out of 8 cases of Parkinson's Disease, 41 cases of multiple sclerosis, 21 cases of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and all tested cases of Alzheimer's Disease.
If so, then she should get this published in an important medical journal, and then deserve a Nobel prize.
quote:Transmission of the disease has been clearly documented after bites by fleas, mites, mosquitos and ticks. There is compelling evidence that Lyme disease(LD) can be spread by sexual and congenital transfer.
Nonsense. That is only true for tick bites and transplacental transfer.
quote:Dr. Charles Ray Jones, the leading pediatric specialist on Lyme Disease, has found 12 breastfed children who have developed LD.
Could it not be due to tick bite or transplacental transfer?
These were dubious links and quotes, IMHO.
[ 03. August 2006, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Sewer Rat ]
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treepatrol
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quote:Originally posted by Sewer Rat: Originally posted by treepatrol:
quote:Dr. Robert Rowen knows a family where the mother's infection spread to 5 of her 6 children all of whom recovered with appropriate therapy. It is difficult to believe that these children were all bitten by ticks and seems more plausible that person to person spread within the family caused this problem.
One could as well state: "It is difficult to believe that these children were all infected by transplacental transfer and seems more plausible that tick bites caused this problem."
quote:In 1995 Dr. Mattman obtained positive cultures for Bb from 43 of 47 persons with chronic illness. Only 1 of 23 control patients had a positive Bb culture.
Dr. Mattman has subsequently recovered Bb spirochetes from 8 out of 8 cases of Parkinson's Disease, 41 cases of multiple sclerosis, 21 cases of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and all tested cases of Alzheimer's Disease.
If so, then she should get this published in an important medical journal, and then deserve a Nobel prize.
quote:Transmission of the disease has been clearly documented after bites by fleas, mites, mosquitos and ticks. There is compelling evidence that Lyme disease(LD) can be spread by sexual and congenital transfer.
Nonsense. That is only true for tick bites and transplacental transfer.
quote:Dr. Charles Ray Jones, the leading pediatric specialist on Lyme Disease, has found 12 breastfed children who have developed LD.
Could it not be due to tick bite or transplacental transfer?
These were dubious links and quotes, IMHO.
These were dubious links and quotes, IMHO.
How long have you been involved with Lyme Disease?
I see your fairly new.
This not a dubious link sewer rat. And , Lida Mattman PhD Microbiologist & Lida H Mattman, PhD, has spent seven decades studying the different forms that bacteria can take, publishing the textbook on Stealth Pathogens, "Cell Wall Deficient Forms." Her contributions to medical science can be summarized best by noting that in 1998 she was nominated for the highest honor attainable in her profession: The Nobel Prize in Medicine.
Now when you read more and study this disease then you can call my links dubious.
Lida Holmes Mattman (1912 - ) Inducted: 2005 Era: Contemporary Area(s) of Achievement: Math/Science,Medicine/Health Care
Lida Holmes Mattman has made numerous contributions to health care education and research. Dr Mattman earned her bachelor's and master's degrees emphasizing bacteriology and virology from the University of Kansas, and she pursued a doctorate in immunology, which she received with distinction from Yale University in 1940.
Once the director of laboratories for the United Nations, Mattman joined the faculty at Wayne State University in 1949. She has also taught at Harvard University, Howard Hughes Institute and Oakland University. At Wayne State, Mattman taught more than 2,000 students who became physicians.
Former students praise her for teaching important subjects and for making them interesting. Another 2,000 students were women who became nurses. Mattman received the Wayne State University President's Award for Outstanding Teaching and Research in 1977, the first year the award was given.
In a crucial contribution to women's health, Dr. Mattman described the etiology of interstitial cystitis, a disease that affects more than 100,000 women in the United States. She also worked to discern the causes of Rheumatoid arthritis, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (Lou Gehrig's disease), scleroderma, Parkinson's disease and anterior uveitis, the most common cause of blindness.
Mattman taught and used a new method to diagnose tuberculosis in 48 hours. The conventional method takes three to four weeks, causing irreparable damage before treatment begins. Mattman's method has been used in the United States and abroad.
Known for her interest in and concern for all students, Dr. Mattman work makes her a role model for women, and men, in health careers, while her medical research has helped countless people. The impact of this hard work and dedication have earned Lida Mattman a spot in the Michigan Women's Hall of Fame.
Professor Lida Mattman, Ph.D. Has spent several decades studying the different forms that bacteria can take, publishing the textbook on Stealth Pathogens, Cell Wall Deficient Forms. Graduated with a M.S. in Virology from Univ. of Kansas and Ph.D. in Immunology from Yale, She has taught Immunology, Microbiology, Bacteriology, Virology, Pathology, and for 35 years worked in these fields at various schools and institutions including Harvard Univ., Howard Hughes Institute, Oakland Univ. and Wayne State Univ. where she is Professor Emeritus. Currently working for the Nelson Medical Research Institute studying the relationship of spirochetes involved in MS, Lyme and ALS. In 1998 she was nominated for the Nobel Price in Medicine. Clips from her book
This recent (1992) work from Dr. Mattman, (who is Professor Emeritus in the Department of Biological Sciences at Wayne State University in Detroit), demonstrates that the actual appearance of infectious micro-organisms can show much more change and variety than current bacteriology teaches. Homeopaths might believe that this is support for Hahnemann's general concept of infectious miasms. And the concepts could help us understand the action of nosodes and give us ideas for new homeopathic remedies. The preface says: "This volume has a dual thrust: to describe the unrecognized omnipresent role of wall-deficient organisms in all aspects of microbe participation in life, including initiation of the food chain. Secondly to note that the majority of unexplained negative cultures concern infection with these variants."
"Clandestine, almost unrecognizable, polymorphic bacterial growth occurs as often as the stereotyped classical boxcars of bacilli, pearls of cocci, . . . . . . " ". . . the shapes which result from diminution, discontinuities, or complete absence of [cell] walls are almost endlessly variegated, ranging from ultramicroscopic to syncytial. Binary fission ceases; budding is one of the common forms of reproduction."
Later chapters explain how these organisms may be involved in heart disease, urinary tract infections, meningitis, rheumatic fever, joint and bone disease, sarcoidosis, leprosy, ulcerative colitis, and malignancies.
I guess she's really dubious?
Dont run into a fire with out a hose sewer rat.
2. Dr. Jones shares his insight into the realities of the affects of Lyme disease in children. He relates the suffering of thousands of children caused by an often invisible disease. Learn the truth about children and Lyme disease.
Dr. Charles Ray Jones loves his kids. No child is ever denied medical attention . Help Dr. Jones help children all over the world. Contribute to the Pediatric Lyme Disease Fund today! Your support is greatly appreciated by families worldwide.
Please NOTE: The Lyme Disease Association and novelist, Amy Tan have announced their new affiliation with Dr. Jones' Lyme disease pediatric fund, with Amy Tan as spokesperson for the newly named, LymeAid4Kids Fund. Please Contact LDA for more information and to make a donation. Charles Ray Jones, M.D. Madison Towers 111 Park St., Suite F New Haven, CT 06511 Tel. 203-772-1123*Fax 203-772-0682
UNDERSTANDING LYME WESTERN BLOT
There are nine known Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific KDA Western Blot antibodies (bands): 18 23 30 31 34 37 39 83 and 93.
Only one of these Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific bands is needed to confirm that there is serological evidence of exposure to the Borrelia burgdorferi spirochete and can confirm a clinical diagnosis of Lyme disease.
CDC Western Blot IgM surveillance criteria includes only two Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific antibodies for IgM 23 and 39 and excludes the other seven Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific antibodies.
CDC Western Blot IgG surveillance criteria includes 18 23 30 37 39 and 93 and excludes bands 31 34 and 83.
It does not make sense to exclude any Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific antibodies in a Lyme Western Blot IgG and to include only two of these antibodies in IgM because all the antibodies in IgG were once IgM.
IgM converts to IgG in about two months unless there is a persisting infection driving a persisting IgM reaction. This is the case with any infection including the Borrelia burgdorferi induced Lyme disease.
CDC wrongfully includes five non-specific cross-reacting antibodies in its Western Blot surveillance criteria: 28 41 45 58 and 66. This leads to the possibility of false positive Lyme Western Blots. There can be no false positives if only Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific antibodies are considered. One can have a CDC surveillance positive IgG Lyme Western Blot with the five non-specific antibodies without having any Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific antibodies.
This does not make sense.
CDC recommends that the Lyme Western Blot be performed only if there is a positive or equivocal Lyme ELISA. In my practice of over 7000 children with Lyme disease, 30% with a CDC positive Lyme Western Blot have negative ELISA's. The Lyme ELISA is a poor screening test. An adequate screening test should have false positives not false negatives.
Yep he's very dubious. sewer rat
Dr. Robert Jay Rowen, a Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Johns Hopkins University and graduate of the University of California, San Francisco School of Medicine is internationally known for his work in the field of complementary/alternative/integrative medicine. He is affectionately known as the ``Father of Medical Freedom'' for pioneering the nation's first statutory protection for alternative medicine in 1990 in Alaska, against a concerted opposition from the organized medical community and an imported ``quackbuster''. A few years later, the Alaska governor appointed him to a term on the state medical board against overwhelming opposition from the medical establishment. His appointment was ultimately confirmed by the legislature with overwhelming public support. The rare medical freedom he enjoyed in Alaska enabled him to greatly expand knowledge and experience in a multitude of disciplines and therapies not normally found in medicine. Jumping into alternative medicine in 1983 through a practice in acupuncture, he quickly expanded to nutritional medicine, chelation therapy, oxidation therapy, homeopathy and herbal medicine, and took intensive training in neural therapy and prolotherapy to help treat and eliminate acute and chronic pain. Alaska's laws enabled him to work extensively with innovative cancer therapies, ozone, and ultraviolet blood irradiation therapy. He is internationally known and respected for training hundreds of open-minded physicians in these techniques from around the world. http://www.doctorrowen.com/
Think what you want sewer rat.
Most of these people are of the elite smart intelligent and caring people. Dubious I dont think so.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
After reading that novel up above and all the other shorter posts, I have come to the conclusion, that it is more than likely that MOST of the people in this world have Lyme and many of its coinfections.
How can I say this? Easy, just give my semi-educated guesstimate like most of the rest of you do.
IF we just about all have it, whether active or not, we don't really have to worry about giving it to others, do we?
Watch out for the mosquitos though, or you COULD get Malaria, Lyme, West Nile, etc., etc., etc.. IF you are from a place similar to Wisconsin, you can't possibly get away from them though.
posted
I think the key is more awareness than restriction.
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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Truthfinder
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posted
Thanks, Tree, for posting the great info about Lida Mattman, Dr. J., etc. What great people they are - we owe them much.
You know, sometimes all you have to work with is EVIDENCE. Until there is proof, evidence is all you have.
When the evidence become "compelling", as indicated in a quote in Tree's post above, that is when "it becomes more likely than not" that something is true.
I think most of us are just trying to find the TRUTH in all of this.
And, personally, I am much more interested in the integrity of the information than I am the supposed integrity of some peer-reviewed journal, like JAMA. There are too many politics involved to trust these medical journals completely, IMHO.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
thanks so much for all the info, i am the only person in my family who is sick and i have kissed and shared food in the past with family, but now i make sure i dont share food anymore, but no one has gotten sick, so what this means i dont know. guess they are strong and healthy? radha
Posts: 392 | From New York | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I would be highly, highly surprised if lyme was contagious via saliva. That is not to suggest there may not be some lyme organisms in saliva, but they are not sufficient to infect others.
If people everywhere were spitting on tables, sharing drinks, kissing and transmitting lyme, do you think we'd have ANY trouble gettings serious studies done? Even the "diseases that are really lyme" like MS, CFS etc.. happen to a realtively small population. Not that there isn't a tick-borne lyme epidemic out there, but realize that even the term epidemic is somewhat subjective. There's a Flu epidemic every year that we don't particuarly freak out about, but the HIV epidemic... that's a little more serious for a variety of reasons - the least of which being its proven sexual transmission.
I've shared drinks, made out, had condomless sex (with a single individual the whole time)for years and there wasn't any problem. Not to mention the multitude of friends, family members and aquaintences who have gotten near to my saliva/skin cells etc... over the years. I know there are those with partners with lyme who attribute it to saliva or sexual transmission, but who is really to say that they didn't pick a tick up as well? One partner doesn't go hiking while the other sits in a clean room, do they? Not a one of them have displayed any variety of illness. Now I know this is just my personal experience, but we have to realize something..
Every day we encounter all kinds of nasties. Bacteria, virus, fungii...you name it. Our bodies are EXPOSED to all sorts of things. However, it is only very rarely that we are actually "infected". Honestly, some of the posts I read on here seem to infer that we are all fundamentally unhealthy.
Lyme is a tough bug. Probably one of the most advanced bacteria I've encountered. We've been glossed over by the CDC and whatnot. However, we have to keep our heads above the water. If a study comes out showing that human infection (not neccessarily immune response - we are constantly responding to all sorts of things!) is proven, that's one thing. Right now there are lots of somewhat empiric studies, but I think more investigation is warrented.
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Some here are still debating whether it's passed on from mother to baby in-utero...but lately I have seen more and more posters coming to the conclusion that it is.
I can't account for your experiences with those close to you. I do know symptoms aren't immediately apparant in all those infected....sometimes they're subtle, or attributed to something else.
Couple that with how it reacts within our differing bodies and gene make ups.
I would have been sceptical also, if I had not seen so many close to me in my 9 yrs, come down with this....and they aren't campers and hikers.
In fact, not one of them has ever been bit by a tick---I've asked. Wouldn't you think at least ONE of them would have had evidence of a tick bite?
quote:How long have you been involved with Lyme Disease?
Years.
quote:This not a dubious link sewer rat. And , Lida Mattman PhD Microbiologist & Lida H Mattman, PhD, has spent seven decades studying the different forms that bacteria can take, publishing the textbook on Stealth Pathogens, "Cell Wall Deficient Forms." Her contributions to medical science can be summarized best by noting that in 1998 she was nominated for the highest honor attainable in her profession: The Nobel Prize in Medicine.
Can you show me evidence that Mattman was nominated for the Nobel Prize?
The use of "Dr" instead of "PhD" and claims of being nominated for the Nobel Price, should raise suspicion. The dubious Trevor Marshall, PhD also likes to call himself "Dr. Marshall".
quote:Now when you read more and study this disease then you can call my links dubious.
IMO I have read and studied this disease enough to be make an assessment about the links.
quote:Yep he's very dubious. sewer rat
Your words, not mine.
quote:Most of these people are of the elite smart intelligent and caring people.
Well, in that case I should soon feel comfortable here.
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quote:The nominatees are kept secret for 50 years.
Which means anyone can claim to have been nominated, so we can't be sure if Mattman was indeed nominated. But what we ARE sure about is that Mattman did NOT receive the Nobel Price.
quote:An absence of proof, is not proof either way.
Also, the burden of proof is on those making the claims.
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posted
I'm in aggreement with sewer rat on this one.
Personally, I believe something else is happening, and in some way, Lyme can be transmitted in other ways than through the bite of the tick.
I've observed to many cases of clues that didn't seem to fit. So, for me, I have no question that something is going on, the question remains what that something happens to be.
Cause and effect don't become as impressive until you can narrow down the variables that you can managably study. Also, you've got to repeat this relationship many times before you come to a point of understaning before you can declare the physical properties of a biological unknown.
There are several querry things I've seen regarding the transmittion of Lyme Disease. One, every member in my household has definite Lyme Disease and I live in non-endemic NC. Two, though I've seen ticks here, no one in my family constanty works outdoors, nor do many of us remember a tickbite episode before the onset of disease (remember this is definite Lyme as opposed to possible with clear signs of Lyme ie: PET confirmed encephalopathy, frank arthtitis, ect...
Another strange thing is we all have the same co-infections, albiet this piece of evidence comes from the response to drugs targeting these co-infections and the responses to these agents. So, like I said earlier, cause and effect is one thing, but understanding exactly what is occuring is very different.
Today I found a lone star tick near my armpit, and I only found it by accident, because if I hadn't looked directly at the tick, I wouldn't have seen it, it was litterally the size of the period on the end of this sentence. I had to use a microscope to identify if indeed it was a tick, and then what kind of tick.
So, is it possible that this may account for my observations, or was this simply co-incidence. I don't know. There are simply too many variables to study, but one thing is odd, and that is that while everyone in the house came down with Lyme after I got very sick, it never happened at the same time, leading me to more questions.
We shouldn't be afraid of these questions, this disease is real, and given the right questions, and legitamate science, I have no doubt they can be reproducable because they are laws that govern nature. Unfortunatly, it can be extremely difficult to discover the right key for these kind of locks.
Something is certainly happening because co-incidence occuring more than once is highly questionable if the variables are directly related, as in the observations I've seen.
However, we don't need to jump the gun about how it can be transmitted (although I think transplacental is not debatable as a form of transmittion, that is just a law that governs the biological properties of nature, the only question regarding this law rests on how often it occurs, and what the stressors and risk factors seem are present when it does)
At the same time, we need to inform the community about what might be happening. Salavia may transmitt borrelia, and warning people is not a terrible thing, but the truth is we just don't know. It could just as easily be tears, or airbourne given the perfect conditions (which would explain why this doesn't happen all the time). We just don't know, and we need to be carefull when we say things we think are happening. They may very well be, but we need to reproduce them with hard science, and we have nothing to hide from this level of scrutiny. Folks, this is a real disease, the only problem is those who research simply failed at asking the right questions for a number of reasons.
I only hope we are given the chance to study this disease as it should be studied.
This is one of the most complicated diseases in all of medicine. HIV, you've got 1 big variable, and that's the virus which keeps on killing your immune system. Everything else rests on that BIG variable.
Sure, they have complications, but they can be treated. So long as you keep that one variable in check, no real huge problems.
Lyme is not so simple. There are many variables, and our understanding is ruidimentary concerning an infection with perhaps 5 or more significant variables.
I only hope we are given the chance to study them.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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treepatrol
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quote:Originally posted by Sewer Rat: Originally posted by treepatrol:
quote:How long have you been involved with Lyme Disease?
Years.
quote:This not a dubious link sewer rat. And , Lida Mattman PhD Microbiologist & Lida H Mattman, PhD, has spent seven decades studying the different forms that bacteria can take, publishing the textbook on Stealth Pathogens, "Cell Wall Deficient Forms." Her contributions to medical science can be summarized best by noting that in 1998 she was nominated for the highest honor attainable in her profession: The Nobel Prize in Medicine.
Can you show me evidence that Mattman was nominated for the Nobel Prize?
The use of "Dr" instead of "PhD" and claims of being nominated for the Nobel Price, should raise suspicion. The dubious Trevor Marshall, PhD also likes to call himself "Dr. Marshall".
quote:Now when you read more and study this disease then you can call my links dubious.
IMO I have read and studied this disease enough to be make an assessment about the links.
quote:Yep he's very dubious. sewer rat
Your words, not mine.
quote:Most of these people are of the elite smart intelligent and caring people.
Well, in that case I should soon feel comfortable here.
Ill state so you understand in my opinion none of the people in the links I posted are dubious. Dont even start twisting my posts on purpose. Those are my words understand? Sewer Rat
Sewerrat said >The use of "Dr" instead of "PhD" and claims of being nominated for the Nobel Price, should raise suspicion. The dubious Trevor Marshall, PhD also likes to call himself "Dr. Marshall".
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Thats some of her abstracts and each one has related articals by other articals citing hers. apples & oranges
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
quote:Originally posted by treepatrol: Thats some of her abstracts and each one has related articals by other articals citing hers. apples & oranges
These articles by Mattman listed in PubMed do not change the fact that most of the article "New ideas about the cause, spread and therapy of Lyme Disease" is a collection of total nonsense, not the least the parts about Mattman.
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treepatrol
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Sewer Rat:
quote:Originally posted by treepatrol: Thats some of her abstracts and each one has related articals by other articals citing hers. apples & oranges
These articles by Mattman listed in PubMed do not change the fact that most of the article "New ideas about the cause, spread and therapy of Lyme Disease" is a collection of total nonsense, not the least the parts about Mattman.
I see your harrassing other people now? Whats up with that? SewerRat
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Correctly telling that a negative test result doesn't provide evidence of exposure to Bb is harrassing?
LOL!
No Correctly telling dosent.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
quote:These articles by Mattman listed in PubMed do not change the fact that most of the article "New ideas about the cause, spread and therapy of Lyme Disease" is a collection of total nonsense , not the least the parts about Mattman.
Sewer Rat, perhaps you would be well-advised to preface your comments with "In my opinion..."
Otherwise, you need to provide proof of your claim, just as you have asked others to do on this thread.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
I agree.
"is a collection of total nonsense"
Use of the word "nonsense" is emotional and judgmental, not scientific.
N.
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sewer Rat
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Truthfinder: Sewer Rat, perhaps you would be well-advised to preface your comments with "In my opinion..."
Otherwise, you need to provide proof of your claim, just as you have asked others to do on this thread.
Okay, then let me put it differently: most of the article "New ideas about the cause, spread and therapy of Lyme Disease" is a collection of unproven statements, opinions, and even clearly untrue statements, IMHO not the least the parts about Mattman.
For example:
"Transmission of the disease has been clearly documented after bites by fleas, mites, mosquitos and ticks. There is compelling evidence that Lyme disease(LD) can be spread by sexual and congenital transfer."
Which is untrue, because that is only true for tick bites and transplacental transfer.
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
sewer rat said Which is untrue, because that is only true for tick bites and transplacental transfer.
bull
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
I just hate it when this great site becomes one-upmanship. So many good people leave, and most everyone just wants to share ideas, get help, give help, etc.
What gives here?
Posts: 190 | From BC Canada | Registered: Jul 2004
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chroniclymie
Unregistered
posted
I would like to post MY OPPINION
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chroniclymie
Unregistered
posted
I would like to post MY OPPINION on this matter without being yelled at or accused of treason or death. i was a dentist for 23 years and 4 years of dental school, lots of microbiology and lots of infectious disease, and 5 years on partial dental consultant to this board. so i feel i am qualified to give my oppinion and this is only an oppinion and not based on fact but sound reasoning.
1) Many lyme people that have had lyme for over 2 years would be considered chronic to myself and others. This means that the bacteria start their voyage to the muscles and tissues of the body and join the single end of a particular cell,ie muscle, tendon,heart,kidney.
2) at this stage they form cysts and are fairly inert until there is a stress on the body that brings them to the forefront, this stress being physical ,mental or emotional.
3) I you were to run a pcr on saliva I would make a large assumption that 95-99.9% would be negative. I do not know the research on this . i am postulating this from data found with pcr's and blood. i have chronic lyme disease and never never had a positive pcr , but had every western blot positive and an elisa of 6.2.
4) the reason mine and many or most pcr's of the blood are negative is because it is like finding 10 ping pong balls in a large swimming pool. they are there but getting the sample with one cell in it is extremely difficult.
5) there are just not a lot of circulating bacteria in the blood stream period, compared to say hepatitis or tb. As a dentist we were more concerned about cross contamination of hepatitis and tb rather than AIDS and lyme disease, WHY?????
6) there are many enzymes, acids and bacteria in the mouth that happen to filter most of the intake of or body from the mouth, and keep it from getting into our blood stream. even if gets past the mouth the acids in the stomach will kill almost any bacteria. There has never been a case a AIDS, that I know of that has been transfered by saliva and also from any dentist. The only case that a patient got AIDS from a dentist is from a deliberate attempt of the dentist to give AIDS to one of his patients in Florida.
This case made national headlines and changes complete sterilization procedures in the dental office.
SO MY THEORY IS NO THERE CAN NOT BE TRANSFER OF BB THRU SALIVA, AND EVEN IF POSSIBLE THE ODDS WOULD BE LIKE WINNING THE LOTTERY. THE RECEIVING PERSON WOULD HAVE TO HAVE AN OPEN WOUND IN THIER MOUTH, AND THE GIVER WOULD HAVE TO HAVE SUCH A HIGH CONCENTRATION OF BB IN THEIR SYSTEM THE WOULD HAVE TO BE DEAD.
just my oppinion and i also stayed at a holiday inn last night docdave130
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posted
Wow, where did this rat come from. IMO it's time to flush and go back to the sewer where you came from. hats
Posts: 956 | From MA | Registered: Nov 2004
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david1097
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3662
posted
Well since there is such a controversy on this subject I might as well provide my controversial comments.
Infection through saliva? This could ONLY happen under certain circumstances, these are:
1.The organism remains viable in the saliva matrix, ether in motile or encysted form. 2. the organism can enter the body through some break in the outer layer of the skin 3. the number of viable organisms needed for infection is very low
If we look at some other spirocete diseases we find that body fluid transfer is posible and has been very well documented. Two of these are syphilis and leptospirosis. These have been experimentaly verified or repeatedly observed in humans so regardless of all other factors, the possibility does exist at least on a gross comparison basis. In doing this one has to recognize that these other orgnism are MOTILE while in the fluid, including water, at least on a gross comparison, LYME DOES NOT SHARE THIS ATRIBUTE based on laboratory techniques used to generate encysted forms of the bacteria (a technique where purified water is used to force a cysts to be generated). Even if this were true, the encysted form could still meet the required criteria. Unfortunately, no clear and repeatable evidence exists to prove that lyme falls under this catagory, so what do you do?
Obvioulsy if the costs are not too high you play it safe and assume yes, transmission os possible. However, what do you do if it is already too late (i.e. exposure has already occured)? Then you have to look at probability and impact.
Assuming that such transmission is finitely possible how likely is it and what would be the outcome.
This is a bit more complex but at least some gross estimates can be made.
Firstly, one must assume that the carrier is shedding bacteria in saliva. Is this possible? I would guess yes, soley based on the ability of other spirocetes, (which one would assume have the same affinity for tissue over fluid) to do this. Some strains of syphlis have this proven ability and direct contact (broken skin) with saliva can transmit the disease.
Is there any proof of this with Lyme, the simple answer is NO. This despite various reports. I say NO because if this were true, I am quite cetain that there would be "spit" tests available by now, as there are with a number of other diseases. Even more so, the observations to date HAVE NOT BEEN INDEPENDANTLY VERIFIED. Was the observation proving viability in saliva the result of your graduate students excitement, was it a fluke occurance, was it a mistaken observation of OTHER MOUTH BORNE spirocetes (ask Docdave about this one), was it real? We don't know, the only way to be sure is to have it independantly verified (ask the guys who discovered cold fusion about independant verification). This far independant verification HAS NOT RESULTED IN THE SAME RESULTS.
If we continue on this initial issue, the same transmissability in other spirocete diseases has also been shown NOT to occur once antibiotic treatment has been started. SO if we use the same logic, lyme would be assumed NOT to be transmissable once treatment has started.
What are the risks? Again infering from other "similar" diseases, If it were a bite, then the risk would be higher for obvious reason, If it was casual contact with no break in the skin then the probability would be much lower or even non-existant. If it was exposure where there was a break in the skin, then (again from leptospira) the risk would again be high. Despite these relative risks, in all cases one would assume that the transfered organism count would be low with the result that infection would either not be viable or would progress at a slow rate due to the low initial innoculation value. Balanced with this is the fact that the organism would already have adapted its self to the temeprature an chemiry of the human body and thus be more viable than say from an insect bite.
Based on this assumption, and going by ILADS clinical observations in terms of bacteria load and symptom presentation, one would expect that infection via this route would result in a slowly progressing , possibly asymtomtic disease.
What about all the publications and reports of clear transmission and captured organisms in saliva?
While I have an open mind to the possible transmission via this route, I do not consider the reports to date as conclusive proof. They are interesting and re-enforce the possibility but they in now way prove it. The burden of proof has to be balanced. Just because you think something is possible, you cannot assume every report that supports this possibility is true and every report that does not is flawed. One has to assume that both are valid and then figure out how this can fit into a model that describes what was reported. On the other hand when it comes to health and safety issue is is prudent to err on the side of caution, but assumptions made to support this caution must be stated as such.
There has been a big argument about Mattman. I do not know the person, but I have talked to some that do. I beleive that she is on to something but the exact details are far from clear, well defined or proven. More work needs to be done. It has not helped that some of her exprimental results could not be re-produced... by anyone, but still the concept that she has put forth can help to explain a few things that are hard to explain otherwise.
When you put forth concepts that are controversial, you must use the utmost care to ensure that the background work that supports your idea is vigourously valid and highy robust. Even if you do this you will be attacked by those that do not believe and have their reputation/concepts to protect. In this area of robust background data I don't think she was as diligent as she could have been.
On the other people who have put forth concepts and reported observations. These are for the most part clinical people. They report what they see, or at least what they think they see. Is what they report actually true? Maybe and maybe not. Their reports may be biased towards their prefered understanding and this may distort how the report is written. Still an observation is an observation and has to be wieghed in the context of other evidence. In this case the other evidence indicate that the observation may very well be possible with the result that the report should also be considered as contributing to the likelyhood. IN EITHER CASE IT IS BY NO MEANS PROOF.
So what do I think and what would I do after the fact?
I would assume that transmission is possible but assume that it is not particulalry likely. I would further assume that the probability of transmission is very low but the risk factor increases with frequent exposure (look at leporosy as an example). A single encounter would therefore have minimal risk (but still possible).
In the end I would monitor the persons at highest risk and if signs or symptoms show up, act accordingly. In fact this is what I have done.
PS this is MY opinion. ALSO despite the apparent heated argument that appears to have occured above, I would find it highly inappropriate that anyone be reprimanded or barred from lymnet acess BECAUSE OF THEIR OPINION. Such action has occured before (again ask docdave) but every one has a point of view, be it right or wrong (and there are MANY WRONG points of view on lymenet). Just becaue some disgree with them is no reason to sanction them. If there is something you donlt like, DON'T ANSWER, with the volume of traffic these days, the post will disappear from the screen in a few minutes.
As far as "lyme negative" people go. I WELCOME THEIR COMMENTS for the simple reason that I would like to hear what they say and have them explain why they say it. Often times this other point of view highlights the reasons for the rift between the positive and negative groups and with this, a more common ground can be established which in the end can bennifit victims of Lyme. IN THIS AREA OF MEDICINE, NOTHING IS BLACK AND WHITE.
Posts: 1184 | From north america | Registered: Feb 2003
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Mattman cultures these cysts Lforms from blood and saliva.
We must remember that the spirochete is mobile and yes there may be few in your mouth for very long in that form doubtful.
But when its in cyst or granuls or or blebs or coccoid forms they could totally be missed by tests which Mattman didnt miss because she grew them in her own mixture.
Its definatly of concern.
They have found spirochetes in dirt dry mud which I cant find the artical right now.
Also I have read again and again about how they go into cysts when threatend but I have also read people that have been on abx's for long periods have used darkfield microscopes to look at there own blood which I have seen some pics with viable spirochetes swimming in there blood so much for abx taking them all out? its my belief they have some way of transmitting there death to others of there kind some chemical protien something that the untouched sprirochetes incorperate into there system being thus uneffected by that particular abx.
I know this occurs in oak tree species the oaks being attacked put off a chemical and other oaks pick this up and start producing a toxin.But gypsy moth catapillars are faster than there responce thats why we release a fungas and other biological controls.
We here are just not adept enough too figure this out its let say out of are speciality. Better to error on the caution side. Just be aware that this is very complicated and hard to prove But not unattainable we have to all put our ideas out for thought and study. We are the front line in this battle not the generals. We see and feel and are involved in a battle we did not choose Yet I do believe we can win.
Exchange of thoughts and experiences is what we bring to the table. But we have to pay closer attention and write everything down be good observers.
Borrelia can take on many forms: spirochete;blebs or granuls;coccoid bodies; cell-wall deficient, where they shed their cell wall and go hide in the host's own cells, even the immune cells; and the cyst form where they join together to form a hard protective little ball in an effort to protect themselves.
SPORE-LIKE, MINUTE GRANULES ``...the spirochaetes undergo an astonishing change. They discharge from their periplastic sheaths spherical granules, and it is apparently these granules which enter the red cells, develop in them and complete a cycle of schizogony...In process of time the spirochaete loses its activity, becomes difficult to see, and eventually all that is left of it is the limp and lifeless... [that the granules] do not appear to take on the Romanowsky stain may explain why they have not previously been noticed... I have found these granules to be resistant forms and their presence in countless numbers in the tissues might explain part of the mechanism of relapse and the difficulty of curing completely some of the more chronic spirochaetal infections, as, for example, syphilis and yaws.''
``...huge amounts of liposome-like blebs are shed [by Borrelia burgdorferi]... Bb-blebs can penetrate through the cell membrane into the cytoplasm, accumulate in the cytosol and enter the nucleus. Bb-blebs abrogate the T-cell stimulatory capacity of dendritic cells.'' --Filgueira L; Beermann C; Groscurth P. 2000.
The formation of tiny refractile granules is also well documented for many species of all genera in the Spirochaetae. Whether these are pathogenic per se remains at this date a controversial point. There is little doubt that even for T. pallidum these granules are infective. '' --Mattman LH. 1993.
``This form [small granules] is apparently resistant and latent and becomes infective when it regenerates spirochetes.'' --Klieneberger-Nobel E. 1951.
``The breakdown into granules is especially pronounced under the action of penicillin and immune sera.'' --Ovcinnikov NM; Delectorsku VV. 1971.
``...scientists Dave Dorward and Claude Garon [of NIH's Rocky Mountain Labs] investigated the nature of naturally elaborated membrane blebs on the surface of cultured B. burgdorferi or free in the medium, and found both linear and circular DNA...'' --W. Burgdorfer. 1999.
``...an alternate type of reproduction from these bodies is a sprouting filament which may become the spirochete. ...The spirochetal cysts differ from bacterial L-bodies in usually forming only a few spirochetae rather than the numerous parent forms which may pack a reverting L-body of most species. Secondly, a sprouting cyst usually thrusts out a spirochetal form rather than the infinite varieties of rhizoid growth which can emerge from an L-body of most bacteria.'' --Mattman LH. 1993.
``According to Levaditi the granular form represents the pre-spirochetal phase of the syphilitic agent. The granules are able to retransform themselves into young spirochetes and then into the long, spiral form. The granular form persists in the tissues during periods of latency and withstands specific treatment. ... Levaditi's conception would be in agreement with the fact that spirochetes are not found in certain diseased tissues, that they are not demonstrated in nerve fibres from cases of paralysis of the insane and of tabes and that latent stages of the disease resist chemotherapeutic treatment.'' --Klieneberger-Nobel E. 1951.
Yes the enemy is wired for its existence to continue
But seeing how God made us in his image I think we are just a tad more important than these germs to him he has given us the ability to overcome all this and we will.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
david1097
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3662
posted
As a continuation on this subject, it should be recognized that veterinarians are taught (at least at one school) that the "stealth" ability of certain bacteria is DUE TO THERE INTRACELLULAR NATURE. Not due to Cysts. This can in many cases equally well explain the things that are explained by the more controversial "cyst" or cell wall deficient forms.
I thought I would mention this as this offers an equally plausible explanation to resistnace/persistence and perhaps even human to human transmission.
Posts: 1184 | From north america | Registered: Feb 2003
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
INTRACELLULAR NATURE Yep
and its not good that they can go inside even the immune cells let alone mucle,bone,all tissue. Wonder if they also attack and go into other bacteria & virus's? If so thats real bad news because they would aquire its dna,proteans.
fixed spelling error
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
The microbes definitely have the upper hand right now.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
1: Phillips SE, Mattman LH, Hulinska D, Moayad H. A proposal for the reliable culture of Borrelia burgdorferi from patients with chronic Lyme disease, even from those previously aggressively treated. Infection. 1998 Nov-Dec;26(6):364-7. PMID: 9861561 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
2: Almenoff PL, Johnson A, Lesser M, Mattman LH. Growth of acid fast L forms from the blood of patients with sarcoidosis. Thorax. 1996 May;51(5):530-3. PMID: 8711683 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3: Sautter RL, Brown WJ, Mattman LH. The use of a selective staphylococcal broth v direct plating for the recovery of Staphylococcus aureus. Infect Control Hosp Epidemiol. 1988 May;9(5):204-5. PMID: 3286750 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
4: Sautter RL, Mattman LH, Legaspi RC. Serratia marcescens meningitis associated with a contaminated benzalkonium chloride solution. Infect Control. 1984 May;5(5):223-5. PMID: 6373646 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
5: Pohlod DJ, Mattman LH, Tunstall L. Structures suggesting cell-wall-deficient forms detected in circulating erythrocytes by fluorochrome staining. Appl Microbiol. 1972 Feb;23(2):262-7. PMID: 4111724 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
6: Merline JR, Golden A, Mattman LH. Cell wall deficient bacterial variants from man in experimental cardiopathy. Am J Clin Pathol. 1971 Feb;55(2):212-20. No abstract available. PMID: 4395775 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
7: Mattman LH. Cell wall-deficient forms of mycobacteria. Ann N Y Acad Sci. 1970 Oct 30;174(2):852-61. No abstract available. PMID: 4100503 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
8: Mattman LH, Tunstall LH, Kispert WG. A survey of l variation in the Salmonellae. Zentralbl Bakteriol [Orig]. 1969 May;210(1):65-74. No abstract available. PMID: 4902755 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
9: Chattman MS, Mattman LH, Mattman PE. L forms in blood cultures demonstrated by nucleic acid fluorescence. Am J Clin Pathol. 1969 Jan;51(1):41-50. No abstract available. PMID: 5766109 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
10: Hessburg PC, Mattman LH, Barth C, Dutcheshen LT. Aqueous microbiology: the possible role of cel wall deficient bacteria in uveitis. Henry Ford Hosp Med J. 1969 Fall;17(3):177-94. No abstract available. PMID: 5350133 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
11: MATTMAN LH, MATTMAN PE. L FORMS OF STREPTOCOCCUS FECALIS IN SEPTICEMIA. Arch Intern Med. 1965 Mar;115:315-21. No abstract available. PMID: 14248363 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
12: MATTMAN LH, TUNSTALL LH, ROSSMOORE HW. Induction and characteristics of staphylococcal L forms. Can J Microbiol. 1961 Oct;7:705-13. No abstract available. PMID: 14471434 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
13: TUNSTALL LH, MATTMAN LH. Growth of hemolytic streptococci in vitamin free medium. Experientia. 1961 Apr 15;17:190-1. No abstract available. PMID: 13778620 [PubMed - OLDMEDLINE]
14: MATTMAN LH, STARNES RW. L variants and the use of sodium azide in their propagation. Yale J Biol Med. 1959 Apr;31(5):294-302. No abstract available. PMID: 13660080 [PubMed - OLDMEDLINE]
15: MATTMAN LH, BURGESS AR, FARKAS ME. Evaluation of antibiotic diffusion in L variant production by Proteus species. J Bacteriol. 1958 Sep;76(3):333. No abstract available. PMID: 13575398 [PubMed - OLDMEDLINE]
16: MATTMAN LH, SENOS G, BARRETT ED. The anaerobic micrococci: incidence, habitat, growth requirements. Am J Med Technol. 1958 May-Jun;24(3):167-8. No abstract available. PMID: 13533445 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
17: MATTMAN LH, FARKAS ME. Cellophane membranes in growth of L variants of the genus Proteus. Appl Microbiol. 1958 Mar;6(2):153-4. No abstract available. PMID: 13521941 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
18: MATTMAN LH, SENOS G. Studies on Streptococcus micros. J Bacteriol. 1957 Dec;74(6):830. No abstract available. PMID: 13502313 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
19: SENOS G, MATTMAN LH. Notes on bacteroides melaninogenicus. J Bacteriol. 1955 Oct;70(4):483. No abstract available. PMID: 13263322 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
20: MATTMAN LH, SAYLOR T, OLIVER G, FRAILING J, SAWDON J, KICE P, BUCKLEY M, TOLONIN B. Carbon dioxide and routine cultures in the diagnostic laboratory. J Lab Clin Med. 1953 Sep;42(3):485-8. No abstract available. PMID: 13085042 [PubMed - OLDMEDLINE]
21: RUSSELL DA, MOORE JM, MATTMAN LH. Rhinoscleroma successfully treated with streptomycin. J Am Med Assoc. 1952 Feb 23;148(8):642-3. No abstract available. PMID: 14888551 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
22: DAVIS JB, MATTMAN LH, WILEY M. Clostridium botulinum in a fatal wound infection. J Am Med Assoc. 1951 Jun 16;146(7):646-8. No abstract available. PMID: 14832034 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
23: MATTMAN LH, EDSALL G. Competitive elution of pertussis hemagglutinin. Proc Soc Exp Biol Med. 1950 Aug;74(4):669-71. No abstract available. PMID: 14781144 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
24: BOHLS SW, MATTMAN LH. Use of tetrathionate broth in isolation of salmonella, shigella, and paracolon bacilli. J Lab Clin Med. 1950 Apr;35(4):654-7. No abstract available. PMID: 15412300 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
viteria
1: Exp Mol Pathol. 2005 Jun;78(3):215-7. Epub 2005 Mar 23.
Alternative cellular energy pigments from bacteria of stealth virus infected individuals.
Martin WJ.
Center for Complex Infectious Diseases, 3328 Stevens Avenue, Rosemead, CA 91770, USA. [email protected]
Bacteria isolated from patients infected with stealth-adapted viruses can produce complex solid and thread-like structures similar to the alternative cellular energy pigments (ACE pigments) seen in cultures of stealth-adapted virus infected patients. Bacteria replication of stealth-adapted viruses can explain why certain patients diagnosed as having delusional parasitosis insist that the particles that they believe are parasitic, increase in number even when outside of the body. Bacterial production of ACE pigments may also be contributing to the ACE pigments that can be isolated from the hair, sweat, and urine of such patients. The term viteria has been applied to stealth-adapted viruses that have acquired bacterial sequences. Viteria infected bacteria clearly pose an important public health problem and may lead to a wider dissemination of stealth-adapted viruses.
PMID: 15924874 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Related Links
Alternative cellular energy pigments mistaken for parasitic skin infestations. [Exp Mol Pathol. 2005] PMID:15924873
Stealth virus culture pigments: a potential source of cellular energy. [Exp Mol Pathol. 2003] PMID:12782007
Complex intracellular inclusions in the brain of a child with a stealth virus encephalopathy. [Exp Mol Pathol. 2003] PMID:12782006
Bacteria-related sequences in a simian cytomegalovirus-derived stealth virus culture. [Exp Mol Pathol. 1999] PMID:10331959
1: Exp Mol Pathol. 1999 Apr;66(1):8-14.
Bacteria-related sequences in a simian cytomegalovirus-derived stealth virus culture.
Martin WJ.
Center for Complex Infectious Diseases, Rosemead, California 91770, USA.
Extensive sequencing of cloned DNA isolated from the culture of an African green monkey simian cytomegalovirus-derived stealth virus has identified multiple regions of highly significant homology to various bacterial genes. The apparent acquisition of bacterial sequences extends the potential role of stealth viruses as natural vectors in the transfer of genetic information. The findings highlight the dynamic interface between viral and bacterial genomes and the potential of this interaction in the emergence and spread of novel pathogens. The term viteria is proposed for microorganisms that contain both eukaryotic-viral and prokaryotic-bacterial genetic sequences. Copyright 1999 Academic Press.
PMID: 10331959 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Related Links
Cellular sequences in stealth viruses. [Pathobiology. 1998] PMID:9645627
Stealth adaptation of an African green monkey simian cytomegalovirus. [Exp Mol Pathol. 1999] PMID:10331958
Chemokine receptor-related genetic sequences in an african green monkey simian cytomegalovirus-derived stealth virus. [Exp Mol Pathol. 2000] PMID:10891288
Melanoma growth stimulatory activity (MGSA/GRO-alpha) chemokine genes incorporated into an African green monkey simian cytomegalovirus-derived stealth virus. [Exp Mol Pathol. 1999] PMID:10331960
Simian cytomegalovirus-related stealth virus isolated from the cerebrospinal fluid of a patient with bipolar psychosis and acute encephalopathy. [Pathobiology. 1996] PMID:8888270
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
I have to say re Sewer Rat that I agree, because Mattman does over-reach re facts versus her opinion. I think Mattman is wonderful. And I think that.
Sewer Rat has posted on sci.med.diseases.lyme for years (although not under the same name). I believe he is a support group leader in Pennsylvania, but I could be wrong. I do believe he is a good hearted Lyme patient.
I also think we need to be careful here on LymeNet re that thread re tests- I think it is important to acknowledge that Sewer Rat acknowledges clinical diagnoses but is just worried about people without Lyme being told that they have it- I did not interpret his comments on that thread as harassment but as concern- real concern- for that person!!
Personally-
I always used to think I infected my older daughter breastfeeding but the longer I have been around the more suspicious my whole life history looks to me with many of my same symptoms having been in me at 21 years old diagnosed as "suspected lupus" and then reappearing with tick bite and rash. So I do wonder if she is congenital!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, it is found in breastmilk and semen- but it is also found in blood in blood banks!!! Lyme does NOT transmit even when pumped wholeveinedly into another person!!! Isn't that amazinG? But it DOES transmit transplacentally- and it DOES transmit easily via tick bite because of the enzyme that ticks release to nullify/ mediate immune response- that in why in labs they have found that they infect test subject via tick rather than syringe- because ticks work!!!!!!!!
Anyway, the jury is out on a lot. But Treepatrol- I know you are a goodhearted Lyme patient- who works tirelessly (or maybe tiredly*)! on our behalf- and I believe Sewer Rat is too.
On the Memorial page there was once a young man, briefly, who had been treated for Lyme disease, until they did his autopsy. HE HAD LEUKEMIA!!! SOMEHOW THEY HAD MISSED IT- and he was treated for Lyme-
The CDC uses him as an example of the Lyme "problem". We don't need ANY more cases like that- the worst thing- not even the politics around it- but that young man may have still been alive today if he had been treated for LEUKEMIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So yes, we need to be careful. VERY careful, not to tell people they have Lyme based on indeterminate bands-
Best wishes to all, Treepatrol, Sewage person, everyone- Sarah
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
LEUKEMIA
Thats funny you should mention that I just talked to a really good friend from highschool hes one tough guy he was diagnosed with cancer of the blood ie LEUKEMIA and treated for it hes doing pretty well worn down some but pretty good.I just talked to him sunday.
Anyway I said how did they find it? He said well I kept having nosebleeds hmmm I said. What else? he said tired weak sore joints hurt couldnt sleep ached all over all the time. I said hmm? He's doing good now .
I have exactly the same symptoms with lyme and the nosebleeds are totally gone after my babesiosis treatment with mepron & biaxin xl?
Maybe this is related? My buddy is a hunter/fishermen/works outside guy also.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
Maybe- ehrlichiosis can be confused with leukemia because of the affect on white count- and can be completely seronegative- so maybe if you had that too and then with babs gone your body could get that under control- OR nosebleeds could have just been from Babs if your blood was hemolyzing and for some reason it was site specific in your body???- I don't know!!!!!!!!
But this kid had frank leukemia and it was never found and he wasn't properly treated-
Imagine with your friend Tree if you had seen him BEFORE he got diagnosed leukemia- and you genuinely believed you were helping him when/if you steered him toward a Lyme diagnosis- when he needed lifesaving tx of a different kind- that is the point I saw Sewer Rat trying to make on the other thread-
Sewer Rat is contentious and stubborn and intellectual and loves to argue- yes- and picks away at science and politics and is nit-picky- and bad tempered and mean sometimes and really nice sometimes too but I do believe he is one of us- (there are others I believe are not!! but he is not one of them)!!!!!!!!!!
Tree, the abstract re spiochetes in micorbial mud mats is the large spirochete BBaja Californieniensis- it is not pathogenic to humans that we know of- there are many spirochetes that cannot infect humans- and many that we haven't found YET that are, I am sure-!!!!!!!
Best wishes to all, Sarah
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
I agree pretty much everthing you said. I dont have a problem with sew rat never did he was just being him.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
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