posted
My husband came on my trip last month to San Francisco. I got him to have lab tests, though he does not have symptoms.
Every time he is extra tired I worry. And as we all know, the earlier the treatment the better, right?
It was a long shot, and I didn't worry much about it.
My husband has terrible allergies. There are months every year that he runs from the car to the house to avoid the outdoors.
(I was born in a barn. One of my favorite past times was to gather bever dam sticks out of the brush along the creek. They have beautiful markings on them, oil up nice and make great frames for pics, shelves and such)
About sexual tranmission, I figured that I was sick 9 months before diagnosis, and if he was going to catch it from me, then he probably had during the undiagnosed months....
Well, today I got his test results when I had my appointment.
His Lyme IGM is igenex and CDC positive.
Erlichia also.
Can Erlichia be sexually transmitted? I think that would be most likely, as he is hardly outside, and we are not in a super high lyme area.
My whole world has turned upside down. Have not been able to work much, or do the stuff that defined my life, like being there for my kids, working outside.
So my dreaded message: If you have lyme:
***** USE A CONDOM *****
Von
[ 01. February 2007, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: von ]
Posts: 258 | From Washington State | Registered: Nov 2005
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
It is my personal belief that Lyme is not sexually transmitted. It is also the belief of the CDC.
Look, you have HAD to have been in the same places and had much of the same risk factors. I don't know why you would focus on sexual transmission except for guilt and fear and the ongoing controversy about it of course- it is a horrible thing to be afraid about hurting the person you love so much- but there is NOTHING that says that is how he got it. Unless you are God and I need to rearrange my belief system!!!!!
I have my number listed here and a number of other places and I get A LOT of phone calls from strangers. I hear over and over and over again, "I was hiking..." "I had a tick bite and..." NOT ONCE have I gotten a cold call from someone saying, "I slept with this guy with Lyme and today I woke up and..." JUST HASN'T HAPPENED to me!!!!! No calls like that. ANd people DO associate risk behavior and then the sickness...
The people who tend to propagate that idea are people who know about Lyme, not newbies, people like me who at one point would have been HAPPY if Lyme was sexually transmitted because that would have blown the lid off the "Lyme conspiracy". I still WISH it was, but no, I don't believe it is. The evidence is not there. Husbands and wives and partners and significant others tend to habituate the same places and many of the same activities. I am sure others will respond who believe it is sexually transmitted because many believe here believe it is. I don't.
I wish you the best. I hope you don't blame yourself because it just may not be TRUE!!!!! I am as Lyme nutty as they come- I believe a great portion of people I meet everyday (at least 25%) have a TBD, truthfully!! But I do not believe it is sexually transmitted.
Take care, Sincerely, Sarah in CA
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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I am 43 and been on abx for a year now. I also have lost my wonderful life to this disease-no more fun mom and wife here.
anywho, my husband is a hunter and is routinely up to his elbows in deer guts and ticks. A few months into my treatment, I made him get tested even though he has no symptoms.
He came back CDC positve also from Igenex. My llmd said that he believes 12% of the population in endemic areas would test postive.
My hubbys non llmd was so shocked at the postive test, he instantly put him on a month of doxy. My llmd said he didn't need the doxy cause the goal of treatment is to get the patient symptom free.
Sexual transmission? I was worried about this and we used condoms for the first six months of treatment (even though poor hubby has a vasectomy).
Stopped using condoms cause it didn't seem to be helping as I was still sick.
With your hubby, I would use the pregnancy issue with him. He wouldn't want to see you get pregnant when you are so ill...if he won't get a vasectomy then make him responsible for the condoms.
Just my 2 cents.
(Glad you are well enough to even want to have sex)
-------------------- We are spiritual beings on a human journey...
posted
I gave my wife borrelia and according to my doc sooner or later the spouse invariable gets borrelia also. Just because someone contracts the bacteria does not mean they get an infection.
My wife tested positive yet was running marathons at the time. IMO going from male to female is easier than female to male.
My reasons to believe Bb is a STD is the same reason C_lyme believes it is not. There is no evidence (well there is a little). No one can tell me "they" know the genetic sequence of a bacterium but forgot to check it's transmission possibilities. especially for a bacteria very closely related to syphilis. Not buying it.
As to the allergies I get killed twice a year. If not for IV peroxide treatments I'd have to leave work for at least two weeks each time it blows in. Tell him to try it. He will LOVE IT if it works for him half as well as it does for me.
[ 09. January 2007, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: brentb ]
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by humanbeing: My llmd said he didn't need the doxy cause the goal of treatment is to get the patient symptom free.
Couldn't agree more. I'd stick with this guy. As to the 12% positive in endemic areas I assume he means 12% test positive. If 12% had symptoms...
Anywho always good to hear what the LLMDS are saying. good post...thanx
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
we don't know about sexual transmission
what we know about immune system means it's gonna be a long time if ever that someone can say someone got it from sexual transmission
we DO know it is in all kinds of other critters besides ticks: biting flies, mosquitoes, spiders, lice, fleas....
we don't know for sure if these other bugs can transmit it...but the anecdotal evidence is piling up
some docs say if one or the other is on abx tx...it can't be transmitted
some of us have experience with this...both getting infectd from a bug other than a tick and NOT getting infected from anything when on abx
bottom line is we really don't know where we can get it from or why it can get into some one's immun system when it can't get into others
also-if you test positive "without symptoms" ...it might just be you don't know you have the symptom. that happened to my daughter-in-law. the only "symptom" seems to be her ability to learn. she didnt think she could go to college. when on treatment she gets "A's" when off she can't even do her work...
von-i really want to talk to you. lp
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
Cave,
I agree with 99.99% of what you post and I *do* believe in what you posted*)!! I know it is in semen, but that still does not make it sexually transmissible. Leptospirosis is transmissible through milk and water. Lyme is to Lepto as Lyme is to Syphilis- all spirochetes- but their modes of transmission are different. Syphilis *IS* an STD, people *connect* the infection to the exposure pretty well!! ANywayz, yes, we still have a lot to learn*)!!!!!!
Rocky Mountain labs has that video of a spirochete being destroyed by a human whatever (lymph??) cell- forget what- but the body can defend itself somewhat. If you take Lyme and drink it, you don't get infected. If you take Leptospirosis and drink it, you sure do!!!!!! If you have sex with someone with syphilis, you sure can get infected!!! If you have sex with someone with Lyme, you ??? You can't is my belief but maybe I will turn out to be wrong.
Frankly, I would *love* it if I was wrong because it would be GREAT P.R. We would get a lot of press if that was true. But I don't htink it is. Regardless, safe sex is a wonderful thing- there are so many things out there to watch out for that are sexually tranmissible- like the TBE virus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Eeek*)! Take care guys, Sincerely, Sarah
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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SForsgren
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posted
CaliforniaLyme,
Why do you believe that if you drink Lyme, you won't get it? How do all the babies get infected from drinking breast milk??
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I am here to tell you, and all that will listen that this is sexually transmissible. My husband was bitten by a tick in 2003, got the bullseye rash and then I began getting symptoms 6 months later. Not only did I get Lyme borrelia I also got babesia. We have both tested positive with Igenex and Bowen. He was treated within a week of the tick bite by a LLMD.
We went on abx for 2 years (me for 14 months), went off abx in 2005 and have been abx free since. My only symptoms now are headaches maybe every other month when I get run down. I do not think I will ever be completely rid of this infection but we try to live heathy and are happy to be 99% healthy. My husband runs marathons and Ironman triathelons so he of course does not think anything is wrong. I on the other hand am always looking for this to creep up on us and will always be vigilant to keep this from affecting our lives.
My advice to everyone out there is to stay on abx until all symptoms are gone for at least 3 months. I did riament and artiminisin for babesia. Make sure you treat co-infections, and take supplements, like vit C, magnesium and a multi-vit everyday. Get exercise and live your life!
Posts: 101 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote: My llmd said he didn't need the doxy cause the goal of treatment is to get the patient symptom free.
My llmd is treating my husband. No question. He wants to see him asap.
(and who is to say that I am not a 'symptom' of my husband? Just thinking out loud.)
This doc is very experianced and well known.
** I think we are back to the question of: (drum roll)
RISK vs. BENIFIT
Von
Posts: 258 | From Washington State | Registered: Nov 2005
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
ACtually I can't believe I wrote that because I believe my older daughter got it from me breastfeeding!!!!!!!!! Hmm!!! Brain lapse!!!!! But I don't believe it is generally transmissible drinkably, unless one swills it for every single meal for 2 years as she did (yes we are in Santa RCuz California land of late weaning!)(and she literally never ate a single thing except chocolate pudding besides breastmilk until she was weaned- just hated solid foods!!!
Hmm. I don't know.
All I know is I need coffee I just woke up and the baby just woke up and I just got her down again but it may be temporary- eek!!! So I need my coffee*)!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by CaliforniaLyme: Frankly, I would *love* it if I was wrong because it would be GREAT P.R. We would get a lot of press if that was true.
If resistance is as bad as it appears, mass usage will not only make Bb (along with all other bacteria) eventually resistant to all abx. More importantly mass usage will mutate these bugs into organisms that kill on contact.(such as VRSA.)
Do we really want great PR on this?
Question not directed at anyone specific...just thrown out there for debate.
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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TerryK
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posted
For what it's worth, I heard from another well respected source that lyme is sexually transmitted in approx 10% of couples where one partner is infected. 90% who get it this way will be asymptomatic but can pass the infection on to others.
The thought that those who are asymptomatic could infect others is a very good reason for an asymptomatic partner to be treated, otherwise the infection will be passed back and forth and one may never get well.
quote:It is my personal belief that Lyme is not sexually transmitted. It is also the belief of the CDC.
Could you please provide a link to where the CDC says that lyme is not sexually transmitted?
See #4 http://www.lymediseaseassociation.org/Response.html The CDC states: "Transmission of Lyme disease through alternate mechanisms has been investigated in a series of studies. To date, these studies have not yielded clear evidence for such transmission.
While alternate modes of transmission remain theoretically possible, it is clear that the great majority of Lyme disease cases are due to tick-borne transmission. Given limited resources, we feel it is prudent to focus resources on preventing illnesses due to known modes of transmission rather than diverting them to evaluate rare or non-viable alternate routes. Gains made in preventing primary infection through tick bites will also necessarily reduce any risk of illness that might exist due to secondary (sexual and transplacental transmission."
The CDC had proof in 1985 that lyme could be transmitted to a fetus. "Transplacental transmission of B. burgdorferi has been documented in a pregnant woman with Lyme disease who did not receive antimicrobial therapy." http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000569.htm
To my knowledge, there have never been any studies that try to determine what the long term consequences of undetected congenital lyme might be. I don't think any study has ever even tried to figure out how one would test for congenital lyme.
According to Tom Grier, for those people who were infected while in the uterus, a lyme antibody may never be produced because the baby's immune system does not see the bacteria as foreign. http://www.canlyme.com/labtests.html
With this as an example of their concern of a known mode of transmission, they certainly cannot be relied upon as a source of comfort that lyme cannot be transmitted sexually.
Personally, I would trust impressions of those who treat many patients and use caution until the issue is fully understood.
Terry
[ 10. January 2007, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: TerryK ]
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Thank you so much everyone. All your two cents add up to a million to me.
Terry, I am with you. I certainly am not waiting for the CDC to figure it out.
Sexually may not be a super easy,super easy, way of transmission........ (so many have multiple partners over years of time.....) but I am convinced that it happens.
****PR: If sexual transmission is true, or it may be true, It needs some press.
CAN I PICK ANOTHER NUMBER? Any number? It is embarrassing!
Von
Posts: 258 | From Washington State | Registered: Nov 2005
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is CDC positive w/o treatment or concern. He is in
denial and very symptomatic.
There are 9 of us with Lyme in my family.
Best wishes Lyme x 9
Oh and yes I believe it is sexually transmitted. And so do 5 LLMDs I have consulted over the 2 1/2 years my family has been sick.
Posts: 399 | From Texas | Registered: Apr 2005
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CaliforniaLyme
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posted
Wow TerryK!!!!! They have changed!!! I wasn't trying to be deceptive in any way of what the CDC stands for, but they used to be much more clear in an anti-sexual transmission stance!!! That is interesting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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we are also battling the birth control question. I'm a mom of 3 wonderful children. I've had Lyme for about 12 years, my kids are younger than that and pretty healthy. My oldest tested positive for Borrelia, the younger ones will get tested, soon. We don't know, whether my husband and I passed bacteria back and forth or if we got individually infected.
My kids were all nursed for about 10 months and rather strong with lots of energy.
My brain is so fogged, I forgot the question and couldn't read all the answers, either.
in my opinion, couples will eventually pass bacteria on to the partner. I probably infected my kids in the womb or while nursing. I didn't know then, that I was sick and am thankful for it- I wouldn't want to miss a single second of my marriage or especially time spent with the children. Enjoy life while you can and decide for yourself, what's important. No regrets!!
Good luck to you,
Sonja
Posts: 35 | From Arizona | Registered: Dec 2006
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You say that you don't think you can get it from just drinking it unless you use it as ur main source of intake, but to me that doesn't make sense.
It only takes one tick with lyme to give it to you and you have living proof that your daughter has lyme from you think breastfeeding.
It's kinda like saying well if you drink every day for a long time you will become a drunk. But you can drink occasionally and not be a drunk. But that is incorrect, because being an alcoholic changes the way your brain functions-as lyme does.
If you have people in your family whom are alcoholics then you are pre-disposed to having one drink and becomming an alcoholic. It's in your genes.
As in lyme, if your immune system is surpressed you risk passing it on.
How do you know that you didn't give lyme to your baby while she was inside your tummy. You already had lyme, so it would make sense that unless you followed the pregnacy ILIAD standards of care that you would run a GREAT chance of passing it on.
This is not to say that the breast milk didn't make her sick as well-because I believe it can be passed on through that as well-from one body to another.
I guess my point is, we have no idea-We'd all love to think that we can't pass it on to someone else-we all hope that it can't be transmitted, but let's look at some basic common sense senario's.
Ticks have spread lyme across the country. The disease is hard to diagnoise and difficult to treat. Pregnant moms have passed it unknowingly to their children. Men have the bacteria in their sperm.
Perhap you are right-perhaps some of us are completely wrong, but it seems to make sense to me that it could be passed.
Lindsay
Posts: 484 | From Burlingame, Ca | Registered: Sep 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
WHO said MEN have Lyme in their sperm?????
I havn't heard of any such tests as that one. Only animals.
I personally do NOT believe it is passed on sexually. Lyme is NOT an STD.
IF and when they ever come up with a different diagnosis than that, I will retract my words. Until then, this thing just goes on and one every few months. Guess some need something to write about, right?
Just because someone THINKS they gave it to someone, doesn't necessarily make it so. IF you have ever been bit by a mosquito, you could have it. OR if you have ever been bit by a flea, you could have it. AND the same goes for if you have ever been bit by a tick, you could have it. Maybe, if you have ever had a blood transfusion, you could have it too.
posted
I thought our blood supply was safe? That also goes round and round.
Posts: 158 | From PA. | Registered: Jul 2006
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SForsgren
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posted
I think it has been shown that Lyme is in sperm. IGeneX will PCR test any bodily fluid and I am pretty sure that sperm is one that it has been found in. Certainly it is found in urine.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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I do agree with you that this could be passed by other vectors, lots of posibilites.
See Cave's reply earlier in this post. Here is portion of it:
Surprisingly, initial laboratory testing of semen samples provided by male Lyme patients (positive by western blot/PCR in blood)
and the male sexual partner of a Lyme infected female patient were positive approximately 40% of the time;
I assume that 'semen samples provided by male Lyme patients' means 'male HUMAN lyme patients.'
I could be wrong, because they talk about animals before that.
And I don't think they would call it 'donate' if it were animal either.
Keeping an open mind,
von
Posts: 258 | From Washington State | Registered: Nov 2005
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
I think Lida Mattman was one of the people that found Bb in semen and vaginal secretions, and I'm pretty sure all her tests were done on human fluids.
In the article Cave posted: ``ALL positive semen/vaginal samples in patients with known sexual partners resulted in positive Lyme titers/PCR in their sexual partners. 3/4 positive semen patients had no or unknown sexual partners to be tested.''
This is NOT talking about animals. You don't refer to animals as ``patients'' unless you are a veterinarian, and this guy was a D.O.
Syphilis is sexually transmitted just slightly less than 50% of the time, even in the most infectious stages. Repeated exposure drastically increases the chances of getting it. And that's what I think happens with Lyme in couples. Even if Lyme is only sexually transmitted 5% of the time, with repeated exposure it is just a matter of time.
As responsible people, I think we should assume that Lyme IS an STD until proven otherwise and not the other way around.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
W.T. Harvey, MD, MS, MPH and Patricia Salvato, MD of Diversified Medical Practices in Houston, Texas recently published the article- Lyme disease: ancient engine of an unrecognized borreliosis pandemic.
They were puzzled by the high number of patients testing positive for Lyme disease. Many of these patients presented with "established" criteria for Lyme disease, but others did not. The fact that southeastern Texas is a `non-endemic' region, and that many of the patients had no history of erythema migrans rash, led the doctors to question established methods for Lyme disease consideration.
Careful reflection of published research leads them to conclude the following. First, the arthropod is not the exclusive vector of Lyme disease. In addition to ticks, Borrelia burgdorferi may be carried and transmitted by fleas, mosquitos, and mites. Second, Lyme disease is not exclusively vector-borne. Compelling evidence supports horizontal (sexual) and vertical (congenital) human to human transfer.
Other front-line physicians are arriving at the same conclusions. "Of the more than 5,000 children I've treated, 240 have been born with the disease," says Charles Ray Jones, MD. Dr. Jones, who is the world's leading pediatric specialist on Lyme Disease, says that about 90% of his practice is comprised of patients with the disease. He also states, "Twelve children who've been breast-fed have subsequently developed Lyme".
University of Wisconsin researchers state that dairy cattle and other food animals can be infected with B. burgdorferi and hence some raw foods of animal origin might be contaminated with the pathogen. Recent findings indicate that the pathogen may be transmitted orally to laboratory animals, without an arthropod vector. Thus, the possibility exists that Lyme disease can be a food infection
Citing limitations of laboratory tests for the detection of antibodies to Borrelia, a study was conducted in 1995 at the University of Vienna (Austria) for the detection of Borrelia. Utilizing polymerase chain reaction testing for DNA, Borrelia was found to be present in both the urine and breast milk of patients previously diagnosed with Lyme disease.A study conducted at the Sacramento (California) Medical Foundation Blood Center in 1989 states that there is evidence that the transmission of Borrelia is possible by blood transfusion.
Furthermore, in 1990, a study by the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) in Atlanta, Georgia stated that the data demonstrates that Borrelia burgdorferi can survive the blood processing procedures normally applied to transfused blood in the USA.
Lyme disease is the fastest-growing epidemic in the world. The Center for Disease Control (CDC) in Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. affirms that "there is considerable underreporting" of Lyme disease, maintaining that the actual infection rate may be 1.8 million, 10 times higher than the 180,000 cases currently reported. Nick Harris, Ph.D., Director of the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society (ILADS), states "Lyme is grossly under-reported.
In the U.S., we probably have about 200,000 cases per year." Dan Kinderleher, MD an expert on Lyme disease, stated on the Today Show in June 10, 2002 that the number of cases may be 100 times higher (18 million in the United States alone) than reported by the CDC.
Joanne Whitaker, MD has developed a "Rapid Identification of Borrelia burgdorferi" and has over 3200 positive specimens for Borrelia burgdorferi from forty-six (46) states, including Alaska and Hawaii. In addition, Dr. Whitaker has had positive specimens from Australia, Canada, Canary Islands, Brazil, Denmark, England, France, Germany, Ireland, Netherlands, Scotland, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland.
Considering vector, congenital and sexual transfer, Dr. Harvey and Dr. Salvato estimate that 15.5% of the global population, nearly 1 billion people, could be infected with Borrelia.
Lee Cowden, MD states that there are very few symptoms where one should not consider Lyme, especially given that a quarter of the U.S. population may be affected. It is estimated that Lyme disease may be a contributing factor in more than 50% of chronically ill people.
The Sierra Integrative Medicine Clinic in Reno, Nevada, states that Authorities estimate that up to 90 percent of the population could be carrying the Lyme spirochete and that Lyme is a factor in over 50 percent of chronic illnesses.
Dormancy and subsequent activation caused by weakened immune system
It is believed that years can pass before symptoms appear in a patient that has been infected with Borrelia. In 1998, a study conducted in Switzerland demonstrated that only 12.5% of the patients that tested positive for Borrelia developed clinical symptoms confirming that Borrelia burgdorferi infection is often asymptomatic. A report from Germany outlines the case of a 12 year old boy that developed Lyme Arthritis 5 years after being bit by a tick. The case indicates that the latency period between tick bite and onset of Lyme Arthritis may last up to 5 years.
All asymptomatic carriers of Borrelia are at risk of developing Lyme disease at some point. Stress, an increasing health concern for physicians worldwide, may have been the trigger that activated Lyme disease in a patient in Sweden.
The case is reported of a 26 year old woman with latent Lyme borreliosis that was concurrently activated with a herpes simplex virus type 1 infection. Immune suppression by stress may have caused activation of both infections.
Epidemiology and clinical similarities of human spirochetal diseases.
Schmid GP.
Division of Sexually Transmitted Diseases, Centers for Disease Control, Atlanta, Georgia 30333.
Lyme disease, first identified in 1975, is the most recently recognized of the seven human spirochetal diseases; the evolving clinical picture of Lyme disease indicates it shares many features with the other diseases. These similarities are striking in view of the diverse epidemiology of the seven diseases, which are caused by Treponema species (spread by human-to-human contact) or Leptospira or Borrelia species (zoonoses). These similarities include the following: (1) skin or mucous membrane as portal of entry; (2) spirochetemia early in the course of disease, with wide dissemination through tissue and body fluid; and (3) one or more subsequent stages of disease, often with intervening latent periods. Lyme disease shares with many spirochetal diseases a tropism for skin and neurologic and cardiovascular manifestations, whereas chronic arthritis is unique to Lyme disease.
These similarities and dissimilarities offer opportunities to discover which properties unique to the pathogenic spirochetes are responsible for clinical manifestations and suggest that certain clinical features of patients with spirochetal diseases other than Lyme disease may someday be recognized in patients with Lyme disease.
Lyme diseaseis calledt he "New GreatI mitator" becausel,ik e syphilis,i t attacksm ultiple organs ystemsa ndm imicsm any diseasesB.o th diseaseasr ec ausedb y a spirocheteL.y me diseaseis causedb y Borreliab urgdorferi( Bb), an elongated spirals hapedb acteriumth at infectsh umansa nda nimals.B b, previouslyt houghtt o be transmittedo nly by the deert ick (Ixodesd ammini)i s now recognizedto be transmittedb y fleas, mosquitoesa ndm ites.T herei s morec ompellinge videnceto supports exuala ndc ongenitatlr ansfera nde venm orer ecently it has been identified as a food infection.
RECOVERY OF LYME SPIROCHETES BY PCR IN SEMEN SAMPLES OF PREVIOUSLY DIAGNOSED LYME DISEASE PATIENTS Dr. Gregory Bach, Do.O., P.C. 2415 North Broad Street, Colmar, PA 18915 OBJECTIVE
Lyme disease, being a spirochete with pathology similar to syphilis, is often found difficult to treat due to the spirochete invading sanctuary sites and displaying pleomorphic characteristics such as a cyst (L-form).
Because a significant portion of sexually active couples present to my office with Lyme disease, with only one partner having a history of tick exposure, the question of possible secondary (sexual)vector of transmission for the spirochete warrants inquiry.
Additionally, sexually active couples seem to have a marked propensity for antibiotic failure raising the question of sexually active couples re-infecting themselves through intimate contact.
METHODS: Lyme spirochetes/DNA have been recovered from stored animal semen. Recovery of spirochete DNA from nursing mother's breast milk and umbilical cord blood by PCR (confirmed by culture/microscopy), have been found in samples provided to my office.
RESULTS: Suprisingly, initial laboratory testing of semen samples provided by male Lyme patients (positive by western blot/PCR in blood) and the male sexual partner of a Lyme infected female patient were positive approximately 40% of the time.
PCR recovery of Lyme DNA nucleotide sequences with microscopic confirmation of semen samples yielded positive results in 14/32 Lyme patients (13 male semen samples and 1 vaginal pap). ALL positive semen/vaginal samples in patients with known sexual partners resulted in positive Lyme titers/PCR in their sexual partners. 3/4 positive semen patients had no or unknown sexual partners to be tested. These preliminary findings warrant further study.
Current a statistical design study to evaluate the possibility of sexual transition of the spirochete is being undertaken. Our laboratory studies confirm the existence of Lyme spirochetes in semen/vaginal secretions.
Whether or not further clinical studies with a larger statistical group will support the hypothesis of sexual transmission remains to be seen.
A retrospective clinical study is also underway. We are reviewing the medical records, collecting semen samples of patients who were previously diagnosed with current and previously treated Lyme disease are being asked to provide semen, pap and blood samples for extensive laboratory testing.
CONCLUSION: With the initially impressive data, we feel the subsequent statistical study on the sexual transmission of the Lyme spirochete will illuminate a much broader spectrum of public health concerns associated with the disease than the originally accepted tick borne vector.
Equally important, we spoke with Dr. Lida Mattman, Ph.D., previous laboratory director of Nelson Medical Research Institute in Warren, Michigan. Dr. Mattman has clarified the situation.
Mattman, a Yale graduate and previous Director of Research of the laboratories of the UN, was culturing the organism in live culture, considered to be the GOLD STANDARD of Lyme identification. 'During the last six months we were in operation, out of 400 patients, there were only two negative findings. One of the negative cases was a man from Germany and the other was a dog' - Dr. Mattman.
Dr. Mattman believes that spirochetes can become endemic in the population. In the early 1980's, Yaws, a tropical spirochete disease causing elephantiasis-like symptoms was endemic in Haiti. The public heath department gave everyone penicillin.
In France, 1 out of every 7 people tested positive for syphilis, but tests were poor and it could have been much higher. Secondary syphilis may be found in the mouth and skin so it can be communicable by touch alone.
Dr. Mattman believes that touching can spread Lyme disease. The Lyme spirochete can actually occur in tears, and therefore can be transmitted to hands, which contaminates doorknobs, pens, people shaking hands, etc. This appears to be consistent with the observation that whole families often culture positive for Lyme and present with symptoms.
Here we go for some studies. Read on for those who are interested in science. However, I make a point that I am not for or against this idea. More science must be done before we can say anything for sure. A reasonable hypotheisis may be that depending on the clinical pictuture, and if Borrelia are present in the testes, durring intercourse, Lyme may be transmittable maybe every
1 out of 70 times. Certanily a low percenatage for those with definite Lyme, and who also happen to have testicular involvement. So, my reasoning is that those this probally does occur, its not the most common form of transmition. However, more science is needed to confirm or deny any theory. In the meantime, patients, and physicians need to be vigilant in noting observations in the paitients they see, and patients need to be vigilant in ruling out other possible causes for entire families coming down with Lyme before we can directly say exactly how Lyme seems in some cases to be transmittable human to human. While I have little doubt that this occurs, we have no idea how often, and by which mechanism Borrelia uses.
"Interestingly, we found that B. crocidurae could penetrate the tubules and remain in the testis long after the end of spirochetemia, suggesting that the testis can serve as a reservoir for this bacteria in subsequent relapses"
Viability of Borrelia burgdorferi in stored semen. Kumi Diaka J, Harris O. Br Vet J 1995 Mar-Apr; 151(2): 221-4 [have, not scanned]
Semen from 5 dogs, 3 bulls and 3 rams were collected ... divided in 2 equal parts, BSK-H medium and B. burgdorferi added + 4 controls. A was stored at 5 degr. C for 48 hours B was cryopreserved in liquid nitrogen at -196 degr. C for 12 weeks The specimens were thawed in waterbath to 37 degr. C. A drop on object glass was examined in phase contrast microscope for sperm motility and viable / motile B. burgdorferi, graded on a scale 0-3.
A significant amount of spirochetes survived cryopreservation and no significant different found between the 2 different storage methods or between the 3 animal species. The viability of B. burgdorferi in cryopreservation was better than spermatozoa .
Experimental and Applied Acarology Publisher: Springer Netherlands ISSN: 0168-8162 (Paper) 1572-9702 (Online) DOI: 10.1023/A:1006058728821 Issue: Volume 23, Number 2 Date: February 1999 Pages: 165 - 169 Sexual transmission of Borrelia garinii by male Ixodes persulcatus ticks (Acari, Ixodidae)
Audrey N. Alekseev1, Helen V. Dubinina1, Sjoerd G.T. Rijpkema2 and Leo M. Schouls2
(1) Zoological Institute, Russian Academy of Sciences, Universitetskaya nabSt, Petersburg, Russia
(2) Research Laboratory for Infectious Diseases, National Institute of Public Health and the Environment Bilthoven, The-Netherlands
Abstract We investigated the transmission of Borrelia garinii and Borrelia afzelii between male and female Ixodes persulcatus ticks. For this purpose the infection rate of partners from tick couples was determined by polymerase chain reaction and reverse line blot.
In couples, where the male tick was infected with B. garinii, four out of nine female partners carried B. garinii. In eight couples, male ticks had a dual infection of B. afzelii and B. garinii and three female partners were infected by Borrelia spirochetes. Two female ticks carried B. garinii, and one female tick had a dual infection. No evidence for transmission of B. afzelii from male to female ticks was found among seven couples.
In 45 couples where the female tick was infected, not one male tick carried spirochetes. The difference in the B. garinii infection rate between male and female ticks among these couples is highly significant.
Our data suggest that transmission of B. garinii from male ticks to female ticks does occur. Sexual transmission of this pathogen may play an important role in the maintenance of B. garinii in I. persulcatus. � Rapid Science Ltd. 1998
Tick - Ixodes persulcatus - Borrelia garinii - sexual transmission.
The prevalence and significance of Borrelia burgdorferi in the urine of feral reservoir hosts
Live Borrelia burgdorferi were isolated from the blood and/or urine of white-footed mice (Peromyscus leucopus) collected on Shelter Island, New York, in 1984 and 1985. Prevalence of spirochetes in urine was consistently higher than in blood or both fluids simultaneously.
Spirochetes remained viable for 18-24 hours in urine and were maintained in culture for one week. Mice removed from the field were spirocheturic for at least 13 months.
One spirocheturic mouse developed spirochetemia one month after field removal indicating the pathogen can return to the peripheral circulation. Twenty-one kidneys from 22 mice had spirochetes in the interstitial areas and bridging the tubules.
A positive correlation between Babesia microti infection and spirocheturia was seen. Although the mechanism of entry into the urine is unknown, B. microti infection may increase glomerular permeability. Babesia induced hematuria may provide possible nutrients to maintain spirochetes.
Urine may provide a method for contact non-tick transmission of B. burgdorferi in natural rodent populations particularly during periods of nesting and/or breeding.
Semen from 5 dogs, 3 bulls and 3 rams were collected ... divided in 2 equal parts, BSK-H medium and B. burgdorferi added + 4 controls.
A. was stored at 5 degr. C for 48 hours
B. was cryopreserved in liquid nitrogen at -196 degr. C for 12 weeks The specimens were thawed in waterbath to 37 degr. C.
A drop on object glass was examined in phase contrast microscope for sperm motility and viable / motile B. burgdorferi, graded on a scale 0-3.
A significant amount of spirochetes survived cryopreservation and no significant different found between the 2 different storage methods or between the 3 animal species.
The viability of B. burgdorferi in cryopreservation was better than spermatozoa.
Make your own mind up??? IMHO I think it is quite likely it is transmissable through sexual contact and by many other means also.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
For grins (no none of this is funny in the least) lets assume treepatrols post is correct. Where do we go from here? IMHO fighting against the IDSA is a complete waste of energy and in fact they are probably correct on some issues.
To attempt to erradicate Bb with traditional abx is simply a non-starter. Total resistance of Bb (throw in VRSA,C difficille,VRE, and others) are just around the corner. Meaning abx treatment will not only not cure a patient but make them worse. We've heard already of folks on this site to which this applies.
The other point is that abx are poisoning our planet. these mutations could in theory wipe out all life on this planet if we continue down this path of mass abx usage. (these are "theories" of folks far smarter than I) Google MRSA pics for an idea of what will happen.
Sorry to beat a dead horse but I think our energies need to be expended in a constructive way. Is there anything we can do about this borrelia pandemic? imo yes.
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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treepatrol
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quote:Originally posted by brentb: For grins (no none of this is funny in the least) lets assume treepatrols post is correct. Where do we go from here? IMHO fighting against the IDSA is a complete waste of energy and in fact they are probably correct on some issues.
To attempt to erradicate Bb with traditional abx is simply a non-starter. Total resistance of Bb (throw in VRSA,C difficille,VRE, and others) are just around the corner. Meaning abx treatment will not only not cure a patient but make them worse. We've heard already of folks on this site to which this applies.
The other point is that abx are poisoning our planet. these mutations could in theory wipe out all life on this planet if we continue down this path of mass abx usage. (these are "theories" of folks far smarter than I) Google MRSA pics for an idea of what will happen.
Sorry to beat a dead horse but I think our energies need to be expended in a constructive way. Is there anything we can do about this borrelia pandemic? imo yes.
Since I have been on biaxin xl & Mepron I have had 3 of these 1st. one on my face near nose not bad though no scare. 2nd. on my belly no scar.
3rd. Now one just below belt line and its going to scar it broke this morning looks just like pic. Is it MRSA who knows??? but something has changed since starting mepron. I thought maybe it was what they use to call carbunkles only ever had one other time in my life. Now in a span of 3 months have had 3 of them???
They start as red sore sorta like a ordinary pimple but by 18hrs swelled and sore then gross brek open you know the rest
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
The ketes survived freezing for two weeks in sperm and urine. Wow those are tough bugs...
lep�to�spi�ro�sis (lpt-sp-rss) n. Any of a group of infectious diseases that are caused by spirochetes of the genus Leptospira, are characterized by jaundice and fever, and are transmitted to humans by contact with the urine of infected animals. (thx to Dorlands Med dictionary)
Assume for all practical purposes that humans are the same as animals... Therefore Pee is dangerous from infected creatures..
Use gloves to clean bathrooms.. I use 3/4 cup of bleach in a gallon of water to clean bathrooms and Kitchen counters... I bet bleach will kill the Ketes...
My wife had Lyme for years before we married. I never caught the bug. I know I have a super immune system from experience.
But, after I learned that Lyme is first cousin to Syphilis, I assumed for safety that Lyme was a STD. So sex was very limited... Didn't want to push my luck.
After all I had to work and provide a living and medical insurance....
Tj
Posts: 192 | From Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Apr 2005
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I am not a doctor but that sore looks very much like a spider bite. It could also be MRSA too. But from what I understand MRSA is usually more than one lesion.
Posts: 649 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2003
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Tree...Everything you mentioned sounds like MRSA. Another indicator that it's possibly MRSA your dealing with is that the wound should burn like crazy. Mine scared the living @#$% outa me.
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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treepatrol
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duke its not a spider bite the picture above was taken from a googled site Like brent said above.
Now it looks like mine after it broke open and the this one looks just like before it broke.
Also a lot of Drs think that they are spider bites but there not there MRSA pics.
Cave Iam going to tell my LLMD when I see him 2 weeks.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Clinical characteristics May present as any of the following skin infections:
Boils, abscesses, furuncles, folliculitus cellulitis. May have the appearance of a spider bite. Cutaneous lesions 5 cm or larger in diameter are not uncommon for this infection. Pain and erythema that seem out of proportion to the severity of the cutaneous findings. Necrosis is a strong indicator of infection with CA-MRSA Other presentationsWith progression contiguous bone infection may occur Necrotizing pneumonia both children and adults Bacteremia Although few cases are life threatening, death has been reported
Signs & symptoms of MRSA When these lesions present, they are usually very red. They can be the size of a quarter, half dollar or silver dollar. They are commonly found on the extremities. They are indurated and can be fluctuant to touch. It appears to look like abscesses or a spider bite. Very commonly confused with a spider bite. They may be ulcerating in the center. They can occur in anyone in the population. I have seen them on young children playing soccer. They can be passed between different family members. It is not uncommon for the MRSA organism to colonize in the nasal passages.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
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San Diego-Based PURE Bioscience Donates More Than 200 Gallons Of 'Staph Attack' Disinfectant to City of San Diego First Responders January 31, 2007 - 6:24 AM
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Company and City Aim to Fight Growing Problem of MRSA - a Potentially Deadly Form of Staph Infection
SAN DIEGO, Jan. 30 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- PURE Bioscience (BULLETIN BOARD: PURE) today announced a donation of 200 gallons of Staph Attack(TM) the silver-based hard surface disinfectant created by PURE Bioscience and distributed by Enviroguard Technologies LLC specifically for populations where resistant bacteria are becoming increasingly problematic, e.g. hospitals, prisons, schools, etc. Staph Attack carries EPA-registered claims against Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA), while maintaining the Category IV lowest-toxicity EPA rating.
PURE Bioscience recently learned of an increasingly problematic MRSA issue, (a form of staph infection particularly difficult to treat due to its resistance to antibiotics) among San Diego's homeless and by extension with the emergency responders in San Diego working to help these individuals. In an effort to supplement current city safeguards to stop the spread of the highly contagious infection, PURE is donating 800 bottles of Staph Attack, enough to treat 72,000 square feet of hard surfaces, for use by EMT, Fire Department, and Police personnel in the city of San Diego.
"We greatly appreciate a local company stepping forward to help address a serious health threat in our city," stated San Diego Fire Chief Tracy Jarman. "Anything we can do to stop the spread of MRSA by creating a cleaner environment for the individuals coming into contact with the infection on a daily basis is a great asset not only to our teams but to public health as a whole."
"Staph Attack has been successful in eradicating MRSA in public and governmental areas in other cities," stated Michael L. Krall, President and CEO PURE Bioscience. "We are grateful to be able to provide this solution to our own city and first responders."
your mind works like mine. how does the staph attack stuff relate to sexual transmission? That's not a sarcastic comment, I just am wanting you to close the loop and come back to the fold.
Posts: 523 | From Stillwater,OK,USA | Registered: Sep 2004
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If one made a douche out of the product one could in theory prevent STDs. Maybe even spray it on ones member before and after sex...Couldn't hurt
Actually a product is out there which does prevent STDs...how this got to MRSA? just one of those things. Hope this closes that loop. Cant wait for the "should we spray this on our peter" debate.
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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OK ... so I've been AWOL for like "ever" ... on the tail end of this debate regarding Sexual transmission ... have been a patient of Dr. H ... I know his stance is that borrelia and babesia for the very least are "most likely" sexually transmitted.
The 4th year of my treatment ... he tested both my husband and child. Both were positive for borrelia and hubby was mildly symptomatic. Dr. H agreed his infection could be independant of mine initially; however, felt that the "layering" affect could be why I was both sicker and not responding to treatment as if I was becoming reinfected over and over and the organism subsequently was changing ...
We know I passed it to kid gestationally.
I fear it can be sexually transmitted tho and really hate the fact that the CDC has chosen to err on the side of since we don't know it isn't. Exactly how AIDS may have made the headway it did initially.
Now for that lesion ... I freakin get those ... just had one on my arm ... first thought it was a spider bite ... like I always do and now you are showing 'em on here. Did I read it right that they are MRSA lesions? I did not go to the doctor but treated it with Bactroban once it burst.
Grrr ... this all so sucks.
Sherry
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