Topic: what is happening when you stop herxing on abx
stymielymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10044
posted
i have not herxed for several months but feel pretty good.
does this mean i am in remission temporarily.
is this an indication of removing abx and seing what happens???
at one time i had regular herxes but now very few.
i would presume that the babs are dead, the bb in blood stream dead. bb in cysts and l form inert and stable.
is this a correct assumption. neuro signs improving each day. litlle pain.
docdave Posts: 1820 | From Boone and Southport, NC | Registered: Sep 2006
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Either there {Bb} is getting use to abx & immune system and are rebuilding.In this case try different abx families.
Or
They are in cyst form or coccoid L form because of that particular abx. In this case add flagyl or Tini.
Or
Your getting better and need to run the gambet of treatments again for as long as it takes your body to rebuild and replace every cell in you.
That way insuring you got every last one of there forms because they have to come out of cells when body replaces its own cells. {{my theory}} I think 14 months for every cell to be replaced not positive right now?
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
trueblue
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7348
posted
My initial thought was... if you're doing well, then wait 3 months and if you remain symptom free then try weaning off the meds.
I tend to agree with Tree, going with one of his 3 choices. I particualrly like the third. If you're feeling that well run through the gammut(sp?) of all the treatments again to make sure until everything is new. That way you can really check to see you've got everything.
Not sure I'm making sense and am glad to hear you are doing do well.
btw, I don't think lack of herx doesn't mean the meds are not working. I've spoken to many people who do not herx yet continue to improve.
-------------------- more light, more love more truth and more innovation Posts: 3783 | From somewhere other than here | Registered: May 2005
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Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
HiDave
Just yesterday a posted something asking what people this kind of thing was happening.
My feeling and the feelings of most who posted on the topic is that the buggers are not likely all dead, but that they have gone into hiding or a dormant state to protect themselves. In that dormant state, ABX are relatively useless, well at least most of them.
So it may be that you are not experiencing a herx because nothing is dieing. Haven't you recently felt good then I think you stopped the ABX and flaired right up?
It might have been you who's posts about not feeling food prompted me making my post in the first place. I can't remember exactly who all had posted about a flair up after ABX, was it you?
posted
I have had several rounds of Flagyl ( the last 2 rounds: 500mgs 3 times a day for 6 weeks in a arrow, then the same dosage but 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off till completing 6 weeks on flagyl) and officially told "my lyme bacteria" is under control and not provoking symptoms.
I did bicillin LA big time....and herxed mildly...
My co-infections are the ones that used to drive me crazy......I would say "mentally retarded" at some point(BLO) and fatigued/out of breath (babs)
The last time I took flagyl was just like taking vitamins. This DOES NOT mean I might NEVER herx on flagyl.....I bet you I will, I just hope not so soon.....
Right now I'm only taking meds targeting co-infections...
Posts: 983 | From The sky | Registered: Feb 2005
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stymielymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10044
posted
been on flagyl for 3 or 6 years.
so this leads me back to my same question of a month ago.
if all is stable and i can get 2-3 good years, why can't the bugs stay dormant, like most viruses in the body, for all we know, and i theorize, the cysts forms have converted somewhat to a viral form, vireria.
we live with all kinds of bugs in our body good and bad every day.
why doo we necessarily need them out of outr body completely to survive.
maybe the killing of the bb and coinfections is causing more damage to our immune system than leaving some lie dormant.
please don't hang me from a wall. this is just my informed oppinion, right or wrong it is a different view than most lymies believe.
i think i would rather be halthly for 2-3 years and sick one. than to keep going up and down, mentally, physically, and emotionally with trying to CURE THIS DISEASE.
MAYBE IT CAN'T BE CURED, MAYBE WE SHOULD LOOK AT TERMS OF MAINTENANCE AS IN AIDS.
MANY PEOPLE NOW ON MEDS FOR AIDS FUNCTION VERY WELL WIITH DECREASED IMMUNE SYSTEMS, JUST HAVE TO BE MORE CAUTIOUS.
docdave Posts: 1820 | From Boone and Southport, NC | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Got 2 daughters infected 6 years a go....both were treated for a whole year with abxs....both went into remission.
At first I was told to closely monitor them, to see if it was really a good idea to keep them OFF the abxs.....well.. to make the story short:
After more than 4 years symptoms and abx free my younguest relapsed...badly....
My oldest still abxs and symptoms free to this day......
Lyme is dormant or "inactive" .....or simply in "equilibrium" in my daughter's body..
What happened to my youngest to relapse? we (hubby and myself) wonder if going to a new school or a course of abx due to an intestinal infection "released the beast".....
It is hard watching your little one strugling with many lyme symptoms:headaches,joint pains,headaches, horrible nauseas...fatigue...
and at the same time contemplating the other playing soccer, basketball, studying.....living an energetic life wondering if she will ever relapse....
The key enjoy it till it last.
NOTE: you are the only one who will know "deep inside" if you are in remission or close to one.
I feel I'm close to one, been feeling great for months now....my problem is the ^*&^%@#$ babesia.
2005 when I thought I was out of the woods...at least temporally BAM!!! BABESIA knocked me down without compassion....add the depression caused by the relapse...
I felt like going back again to square one after years of continuous treatment....maybe remission for me in the future means taking "antibabesial" meds for the rest of my life in order to keep myself symptoms free.
I don't know. I just think at this point that at least I'm feeling good compared to years a go..have good quality of life. I'm pain FREE.
I stopped very long time a go painkillers, sleep pills, antidepresants, etc.....
I'm only on "antimicrobials,antifungals" and acidophilus.
I was told by my LLMD "as long we address all the coinfections or current inbalaces in your system (hormones,etc) your lyme will minimize" he told me too "I can't guarantee your babesia is gone for ever"...go figure..compicated isn't?
Posts: 983 | From The sky | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
No stringing you up here Dave. I agree pretty much whole heartedly. I do not bleieve in cure at this point in time. My LLMD actually said that we need to figure out how to live in harmony with this stuff. What he meant is that we have to bring it into control to a degree that it is NOT controling us.
This is where I think that working on the body as a whole is important so that our onw immune system can once again gain control and hold it in submission. Keep it dormant.
That may mean som time on ABX or natural alternatives to reduce the numbers since we seemed to be overwhelmed right now.
Using lots of different things to keep them guessing as to where the next assault is going to come from and then GET OFF THE TOXIC STUFF ASAP. There is no point in putting our bodies through this IF it is no longer having the intended effect.
The bottom line is antiboitcs are ANTI life and that means all of our good life too. ABX are likely a necessary evil for us. I think we may have swung to far the other direction. We have been told for so long to avoid ABX, now with our situation we have been told that ABX are a MUST for years on end possibly. Seems we need to go back to be a little more cautious and figure out how to do this without killing ourselves in the process.
I think in order to be really in remission you should be able to go off all or at least most meds and STILL feel good not just for a few weeks but for at least a year and hopefully more. Seems the only way to find out if you are in remission is to stop ABX and see what happens.
Now a word of caution and this has been my experience. When I stop treatment these days, the healthier I get the longer I feel crappy after stopping. It "Seems" as if my immune system gets better and better at killing on it's own. It seems like it keeps going after the abx have stopped. This time since stoping the Diflucan it has been about 6 weeks and I am finally starting to feel good again, My pain is subsiding, etc. Some who have not experinced this may think they are flairing up again.
Hopefully I will level off and go back to my long remission. Hopefully this will happen to you too.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I think that the reason people herx in the begining is because there is usually (or can be) a large die off that exceeds the capability of the liver/kidneys/spleen to dispose of....so there is a back up of toxins that are poisioning the person. Once this is cleared up, the person usually will start to feel better.
But after a while, there isn't so much killing going on, and so there isn't as much (maybe none) herxing going on either. This isn't because the meds aren't effective anymore....they are still working. It's just that the pathogens are not as much out in the open anymore, as well as their numbers being down. It is much harder for the abx to get at these bugs now. There is also the problem of them living intracellular, where apoptosis (cell death) must take place in order for the meds to get at them. This can take a long time to happen, and requires patience and persistance.
Then there are the other problems of fibrogen and the ability of the pathogens to go dormant (or cystic). These conditions make it even harder for the meds to get at them.
So just cuz you ain't herxing, don't mean the meds ain't worxing.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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