How long can Lyme cysts hang around before they get old and lose their viability? I can do aerobics and yoga with no problem, but weight lifting always causes a Lyme relapse.
It is possible to minimize these relapses, or even prevent them, by taking ketek and omnicef every day. But ketek is too harsh to stay on indefinitely.
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Tincup
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Good question.
I can't point you to exact documentation right now.. maybe if I searched it.. which not able to at the moment...
BUT, from what I recall...
Keep in mind.. keets have been around MILLIONS of years.
When the spiro-keets go into hiding.. and form the cyst... it is because they are being threatened (Immune system, antibiotics, etc). There may be other reasons.. but that is the only one I know that is documented.
Once the threat is gone.. it can break open and release the new keets.
Since we know people can relapse at least 10 or more years later... I can "assume" they could survive that long? Key word- ASSUME.
Problem is I can't say for sure if the ... well let's say 10 month old cysts actually know the end is near.. and break open for the last hoo-rah... and then release new keets.... which then form cysts... or not??
As for the weight lifting.. I was a trainer/instructor for college students, police force, seniors, etc. I also had bad troubles with weight lifting when doing it. Why??? I don't know. My theory.. THEORY.. was that the cysts liked the muscle tissue to bury in deep.
BUT.. I also think babs and Lyme.. because they destroy cells that carry nutrients and oxygen to muscles and tissues... this can make muscles "gunk up" and not work well.
Then there is the inflammation and lactic acid thing.. etc. etc.
Soooooooooooooooooo... I hope you like the answer? I am trying to help... but not sure anyone has a "for sure" on that yet.
minoucat
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liz -- good to hear from you, sorry it's still about LD.
How the heck are you?
The answer to your question is, I dunno.
What are the specifics of the relapse and how are you sure it's Bb?
I've found that although I can do (mostly) steady and mildly strenuous activity like walking 5 miles or swimming a mile, intensely aerobic activity makes me quite ill, usually immediately afterwards and for a couple of days following. Yoga is fine for me. Ditto the hubby.
Borrelia does do "quorum sensing" to regulate reproduction. This definitely affects transmission from tick to mammalian host, and from one article I read (I think in Discover magazine, but I can't find it) also occurs within the mammalian host. I assuem this would include the cyst form. This is NOT a user friendly article, but see below.
Also -- I wonder if the weight lifting puts more stress on joints and synovial fluids than do the other activities (from my experience, aerobics mostly affects shoulder, knee, and hip joints) and if the Bb in the synovia are flourishing in that oxygen stressed environment?
Do you find that joints not strongly activated by aerobics (I'm leaving out yoga, since that activation is usually not to exhaustion) are causing you trouble in weight lifting?
Is there anything different about your approach to weight lifting (increased carb intake, longer session, moldier locker room) than to the other exercises?
Here's the quorum sensing stuff, sorry I don't have the article that spelled it out in plain language.
"In order for B. burgdorferi to differentially synthesize proteins during its infectious cycle, the bacteria must possess regulatory networks to sense its environment, transmit this information to cellular targets, and regulate the expression of appropriate genes and proteins.
Such regulatory mechanisms may serve to control gene expression at the levels of both the individual bacterium and the population as a whole. Evidence of the importance of precise gene regulation was provided by a recent study which found that mutant B. burgdorferi defective in gene regulation were unable to disseminate and cause disease in mammals (3).
The mechanisms by which B. burgdorferi regulates gene expression in vivo are poorly understood, although recent in vitro studies have provided some clues.
A number of proteins are differentially expressed by Lyme disease spirochetes in response to changing culture conditions, such as temperature, pH, and certain chemicals (1, 2, 4, 13, 32, 51, 57, 66, 74). Yet while some environmental cues have been identified, the mechanisms by which B. burgdorferi senses any of these stimuli or transmits such information to regulate protein synthesis have remained largely unknown.
Cheers, moi
-------------------- ********************* RECIDITE, PLEBES! Gero rem imperialem! (Stand aside plebians! I am on imperial business.)
minoucat
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posted
PS: The short answer is, at least 5 weeks in vivo per observation by Brorson, and possibly years and years per Kroun, who recommends antigen testing for at least 5 years post infection (that is, post treatment and after sx have resolved).
(She says, re malarial in vitro smears: A German colleague and good friend, who is a tropical disease specialist, gave MK a 20-year old blood smear from a malaria patient; we stained it and looked in the microscope and really couldn't tell that it wasn't a recent smear; malaria parasites were easily visible in it, many more than is usually the case with the tick-borne cousin babesia!)
The hubby's having major Bb relapse problems (as am I, although I'm officially in denial.) I'm printing out the cyst files from Cheryl's Lymeinfo and going through it with a fine tooth comb. Other suggestions welcome (hope I'm not hijacking your thread, Liz).
Also looking at http://www.molecularalzheimer.org/ and others -- will post if I find anything useful. And looking into Rife etc. AAARGH.
Foggy
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Have you asked your LLMD?
A LLMD told me bb mobilizes in the tissue. I would assume Excercise could stir things up.
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lymewreck36
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Great links in here guys. I did notice that the first pubmed article about protein expression spoke of the extracellular nature of the spirochete. I was looking for a reference to intracellular, something we all know exists but IDSA ducks like to deny.
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treepatrol
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Theory ? 28 to 34 days?
Thats my herx timing. cysts ripe then? babies enter world from cyst? or from inside our own cells?
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
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borrelia intracellular Localisation of CFSE-stained Bb-HP incubated with human neutrophils. Confocal microscopy was used to demonstrate intracellular localisation of CFSE-stained Bb-HP. Neutrophils and CFSE-stained Bb-Hp were incubated for 5 min (A) or 30 min (B) before the reaction was stopped by adding ice-cold PBS and samples were fixed. The white arrow on panel (A) indicates a borrelia bacterium attached to neutrophil surface. In panel (C), neutrophils were pre-treated for 10 min with 5 μg/ml Cytochalasin B before addition of CFSE-stained Bb-HP for 30 min. Images shown are "stack images" taken at a defined cross section of the neutrophil, as close to the centre of the cell as possible. The white bar represents 10 μm. Images are representative of two to three samples carried out with neutrophils from two to three different donors.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
Assorted Borrelia
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
More
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
Thank you to everyone for your replies. Sounds like we have to wait a long time.
Tincup, your theory about sneaking into the muscles rings true. It's always the chest and back muscles. But could it also be a way to force them out into the open, once you are on the right abx?
Treepatrol, those are some truly terrifying pictures. Colorful, beautiful imagery, but... terrifying.
Cave76, in the words of nursery schoolers everywhere, double-yuck.
Minoucat, thank you very much for your response. Hope all is well with you. Much the same here, especially father's Alzheimer's.
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5dana8
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Thanks cave for the info. 6 years. Yikes, They are from outer space.
& Tree thanks for the awesome photos, scary yes but interesting to see what I am fighting. A formidable enemy.
I just can't understand why main stream medicine can deny the existence of chronic lyme with this kind of research and real life photos.
Anyway I just want to add that I have been using GSE on the last week of every month for a while now. This is around when my monthly flares happen. I do still herx. From the GSE or from the chemical added...it does tend to produce a die off.
I don't have any research but also notice when I over use my muscles they tend to get the lyme aches in them . Anyone one who is familiar with lyme aches it so different than just, ouch my muscles are sore from working out. The aches feel more like the flu and tend to last a long time.
Maybe the body is sending it's soilders to repair muscle tissue & not enought left to fight the lyme? I have a relapse or "set back" too when I get the flu or have to have surgury. Just a thought.
Take care Dana
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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liz28
Unregistered
posted
Minoucat--
You wrote about your husband's relapse.
Don't know what antibiotics he is on. The only antibiotics that keep me in remission are ketek and omnicef. The relapses come from one thing only: exercise.
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lymeHerx001
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I HATE these pictures.
They make me wanna cry knowing this is inside of my precious body.
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