posted
Anyone ever found out why that exists? If it's a weak positive, then shouldnt that be a positive? why the grey area? isn't it akin to being a little pregnant, or are there other reasons besides Lyme that one would get IND on a test, other viruses, antibodies, etc....? I know about the wide array of reasons for band 41, but others?
Posts: 10 | From So Cal | Registered: Apr 2010
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lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
I completely agree.. I had several IND bands and feel that they really are a useless guage for diagnosis.
It's all just a guessing game anyways.. Even an experienced LLMD/LLND is guessing when they diagnose you clinically.
It comes down to using your own better judgement. After all you know yourself best.
posted
I had Indeterminate readings on every single Lyme-specific band of my Igenex test. My doc said it was clearly a positive test.
Posts: 360 | From New York | Registered: Oct 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
"With most infections, your immune system first forms IgM antibodies, then in about 2 to 4 weeks, you see IgG antibodies. In some infections, IgG antibodies may be detectable for years.
Because Borrelia burgdorferi is a chronic persistent infection that may last for decades, you would think patients with chronic symptoms would have positive IgG Western blots.
But actually, more IgM blots are positive in chronic borreliosis than IgG. Every time Borrelia burgdorferi reproduces itself, it may stimulate the immune system to form new IgM antibodies.
Some patients have both IgG and IgM blots positive. But if either the IgG or IgM blot is positive, overall it is a positive result.
Response to antibiotics is the same if either is positive, or both. Some antibodies against the borrelia are given more significance if they are IgG versus IgM, or vice versa.
Since this is a chronic persistent infection, this does not make a lot of sense to me. A newly formed Borrelia burgdorferi should have the same antigen parts as the previous bacteria that produced it.
But anyway, from my clinical experience, these borrelia associated bands usually predict a clinical change in symptoms with antibiotics, regardless of whether they are IgG or IgM."
========================
This explains WHY you need an ILADS doctor, and compares the IDSA and ILADS differences in thought and approaches: -------
CONTROVERSY CONTINUES TO FUEL THE "LYME WAR" (2007)
Excerpts:
" . . .To treat Lyme disease for a comparable number of life cycles, treatment would need to last 30 weeks. . . ."
� . . . Patients with Lyme disease almost always have negative results on standard blood screening tests and have no remarkable findings on physical exam, so they are frequently referred to mental-health professionals for evaluation.
". . . If all cases were detected and treated in the early stages of Lyme disease, the debate over the diagnosis and treatment of late-stage disease would not be an issue, and devastating rheumatologic, neurologic, and cardiac complications could be avoided. . . ."
. . . * Clinicians do not realize that the CDC has gone on record as saying the commercial Lyme tests are designed for epidemiologic rather than diagnostic purposes, and a diagnosis should be based on clinical presentation rather than serologic results. . . .
- Full article at link above, containing MUCH more detailed information.
California Lyme Disease Association (CALDA) is a non-profit corporation acting as the central voice for all tick-borne disease issues. An excellent website for anyone in any state.
See "Lyme 101" and "Lyme Times" periodical articles
posted
My inderterminites on Igenex were actually positive on Labcorp. So I also think they represent a positive result.
Not sure why they can't be considered positive but I am sure there is a reason.
-------------------- Sick since 10/2001. Tested CDC positive for Lyme 10/2008 through Quest and Igenex. Started treatment 1/2009 with LLMD. Lyme, Erichilosis, Chlamydophila Pneumoniae, Q Fever, Strep Syndrome and probably a few others I am forgetting. Posts: 451 | From Virginia | Registered: Feb 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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In reading your recent thread (link below), I'm not sure what to think. The Vincent's Angina of your past may have interfered with the tests. Or - Vincent's Angina may have been CAUSED by borrelia. That is quite possible.
A LLMD can tell you more.
Remember that a test is just one point in time. If that same test were done today, or after an antibiotic challenge, it may light up like a Christmas tree.
You are feeling better, you say- but it's still vital to get to the bottom of this as soon as you can.
There are many variables but you might consult a LLMD who can also assess you for other things that could explain it all. I don't think this can be figured out without the eyes, ears, and brain of an doctor experienced with a full range of chronic stealth infections.
Not all LLMDs are well versed with all stealth infections but ask at CALDA for one who is. ------
Topic: Igenex Results + Cluelessness = Worried Me �
Eireann posted on Dec. 2, 2010
======================
In addition to the usual coinfections from ticks (such as babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia, RMSF, etc.), there are some other chronic stealth infections that an excellent LLMD should know about: ----------
posted
Agreed. I do want to get to the bottom of this. Most people have said "if you had lyme, that one herx wouldn't make you improve like this...it would still be with you, possibly much worse that it was" Does that hold merit? I just dont know. I am going to check out a LLMD that is close by.
Also, if people have antibodies and are/or become asymptomatic, that might indicate a past infection that is no longer an issue? Kinda like the whole theory behind vaccines, though I realize reinfection is possible. I also realize there is an ebb and flow to this disease for some people.
I've read all the reasons why someone might be seronegative, but I just wonder why labs include IND as a variable at all h. Are they hedging their bets, since there are so many bacteria that can wreak havoc, not nec. lyme? Band 41 seems to cover that, but the others...seems like they need to narrow or widen the margins on what is and what is not considered positive.
These people describe many of the same symptoms I had on Augmentin XR. Not the first time I was on Aug, but 1st time I was on that strength. I just wonder what was a general reaction and what was a herx.
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