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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Avoiding animal products can cure auto-immune issues?

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Author Topic: Avoiding animal products can cure auto-immune issues?
richedie
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I was on the McDougall message board, home of the McDougall diet. Quite a few people have reported their auto-immune symptoms clearing after being on the McDougal vegan diet for up to 6 months. Apparently it took that long before the changes to take place, but this was the only change these people made.

anyone heard of this?

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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lululymemom
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My brother is on the McDougall diet and despite being bitten by ticks three different times, is a very healthy 49 year old.. He swears that his diet is what keeps him healthy. He doesn't even have any vision issues which by this age start to decline.

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IGM 41 IND, 83-93+ IGG 31 IND,34 IND, 41++, 58+, 83-93 IND

31 Epitope test neg.

Bartonella henselae 1:100

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richedie
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quote:
Originally posted by lululymemom:
My brother is on the McDougall diet and despite being bitten by ticks three different times, is a very healthy 49 year old.. He swears that his diet is what keeps him healthy. He doesn't even have any vision issues which by this age start to decline.

did he ever have Lyme symptoms? Did they clear on the diet?

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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MichaelTampa
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I am a vegan and familiar with the diet, but don't follow it. I eat much more fat than the McDougall diet would have in it.

I think there is much about the diet that can make one healthier than people eating the "standard" diet. I think there are many with egg and milk allergies that could see autoimmunity issues helped by this diet. There are many ways to addressing autoimmunity issues. Certainly, avoiding substances that start the process is one approach that has some merit.

I do think that my vegan diet and other little things I have done in the name of "staying healthy" are part of why it took until age 38 to crash with lyme symptoms. But I can't imagine a vegan diet, all by itself, being a cure for lyme, whether it's my vegan diet or the McDougall vegan diet.

The McDougall diet is very low fat. And I have heard at least one lyme doc speaker mention low fat diet is best. (Of course, I've heard a lot of different and inconsistent recommendations there.) Could the low fat be something that, in itself, also helps autoimmunity? I guess that's the question to ponder on that. Can't think of a reason why/how, but not a doctor/researcher either.

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lululymemom
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quote:
Originally posted by richedie:
[/qb]

did he ever have Lyme symptoms? Did they clear on the diet? [/QB][/QUOTE]

He never had lyme symptoms but did have high blood pressure and even blacked out once. All of that has gone away since he started the diet 3 years ago.

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IGM 41 IND, 83-93+ IGG 31 IND,34 IND, 41++, 58+, 83-93 IND

31 Epitope test neg.

Bartonella henselae 1:100

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Cold Feet
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The trick is to understand this: when one is on a vegetarian diet (or vegan), one is getting MUCH more nutrition into the human body. This means more vitamins, mineral and enzymes.

Natural enzymes are often overlooked as the true "cure" for most medical conditions. If one cared to test this approach, read any of Anthony Cichoke's enzyme books - then start using the right enzymes and knowledge from his books!

http://www.amazon.com/Enzymes-Enzyme-Therapy-Jump-Start-Lifelong/dp/0658002902

These are older books, but still brilliant. You may find them at the library too.

Btw, it's no coincidence that many enzymes break down bacterial biofilms.

--------------------
My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com
2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia
2006 Positive after 2 years of hell
2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species
2009 - Beating candida, doing better
Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet!

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richedie
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quote:
Originally posted by Cold Feet:
The trick is to understand this: when one is on a vegetarian diet (or vegan), one is getting MUCH more nutrition into the human body. This means more vitamins, mineral and enzymes.

Natural enzymes are often overlooked as the true "cure" for most medical conditions. If one cared to test this approach, read any of Anthony Cichoke's enzyme books - then start using the right enzymes and knowledge from his books!

http://www.amazon.com/Enzymes-Enzyme-Therapy-Jump-Start-Lifelong/dp/0658002902

These are older books, but still brilliant. You may find them at the library too.

Btw, it's no coincidence that many enzymes break down bacterial biofilms.

I will check the library for that book. I have read bolouke, lumbrokinase is the best at breaking down biofilms and also a low fat diet.

Whether I eat a vegetarian diet or meat diet, I still get about the same nutrient density with my food as well as enzymes. It would be different if I was raw.

I thought of trying raw vegan but when you eat 4,000 calories a day, it is tough.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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Razzle
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Yes, vegen diets generally are free from things that promote inflammation, so I can see where this diet would help some with autoimmunity.

However, Lyme is an infection, and having been vegan and vegetarian (I vascillate between dairy and no dairy; I do not eat eggs, meat or seafood & have not for over 20 years), I have to wonder if I would have been sicker if I did not have as clean a diet as I do... It was not a choice to go vegetarian - I simply got to the point that eating meat, seafood (never did like fish...), and eggs just made me feel too sick to keep eating them. This was long before I had ever heard of Lyme Disease...

Also, I need to comment here about fats. The type of fats one gets is almost more important than the quantity. Omega-3 fatty acids are seriously lacking in the traditional American diet. This is partly due to all the processed food we Americans tend to eat, and also due to the farming practices of animal farmers (beef, pork, poultry). Factory farmed meats have poor Omega-3 to Omega-6 fatty acid ratios and are thus far less healthy than grazed/free-range meats. The same goes for eggs - if the chickens are free-range, they get their "natural" diet (pecking at grass & insects) and thus the health of the eggs they produce is much superior to factory-farmed eggs. The animals are healthier and need fewer or no antibiotics when they are not factory farmed, either.

Why does this matter? Omega-3 fatty acids help to control inflammation. Omega-6 fatty acids tend to promote inflammation when not kept in proper balance with Omega-3 fatty acids. We do need both types, but the typical American diet is way too high in Omega-6 fatty acids, and way to low in Omega-3 fatty acids.

Also, after having to rely on IV nutrition for about 2 1/4 years, and having serious reactions to IV lipids (fats) and therefore could not get the fats my body needed for those 2 1/4 years, I got diagnosed with fatty acid deficiency. It is not a good thing to experience...lack of sufficient fatty acids affects every cell and tissue in the body, especially skin, nails, bones, and hair.

So while fats may contribute to biofilms, they are also essential to good health and cannot be avoided long-term without significant health consequences.

Just my $.02...

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-Razzle
Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs.

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raw vegan runner
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Can't say much more than Razzle... [Smile]

I have been a vegetarian most of my life, vegan off and on, and total raw vegan for close to 5 years, starting when I was diagnosed with Lyme.

I do not believe it has cured me. In fact, I have been eating fish off and on these last few months as it is what my body was needing and I cannot digest raw foods at all right now.

I am 100% in favor of a vegetarian/vegan diet. I will go back to raw vegan as soon as I am able. I also believe that my years as a vegetarian/vegan may be why I didn't get as sick as some...but I do not believe it is a cure, in and of itself. I think there are many pieces to the *cure* puzzle, and diet is just one of them.

I also eat a very low fat diet, by default. I am allergic to nuts, and do not eat vegan 'junk food' so do not get much fat in my diet. Again, I do not think that has helped, necessarily...though I do not think it hurt.

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nefferdun
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I just read the book The China Study which explains the authors research on the vegan versus typical American diet. He says diabetes, cancer and cardiovascular disease are the result of eating meat and animal products as well as processed food. He says they are the diseases of affluence.

In the rural areas of China they studied the diets of over 4000 Chinese who ate primarily a vegan diet. The did not suffer the disease we die of here.

Instead they died from virus', parasites and bacteria! So a vegan/vegetarian diet will not cure us but it will help to make us healthier so we can fight off the infections. He said the main problem in poor rural areas was getting a variety of food.

When my son was diagnosed with diabetes I was surprised to find out type one is sometimes caused by an autoimmune reaction to the casein in cow's milk, especially when infants are fed cow's milk formulae. The milk protein resembles beta cells so the body also attacks those cells in the pancreas.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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gwb
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To each his/her own. But I just can't see how a vegan/vegetarian diet can be good for people who are chronically ill. I understand doing it for cancer, but for Lyme and other chronic diseases???

http://realfooddudes.blogspot.com/2011/04/why-eating-meat-is-not-immoral.html

Gary

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WhitneyS
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I;m going to have to chime in here---

Yes vegan/ veggie diet can be great for some, but there is NO scientific study that shows its healthier. The China Study is VERY flawed, and is in no way a properly conducted scientific study.

I was vegan for over a year and I have an auto-immune disease, so def not a cure. I think eatting veggies is SOOO important. But vegan diets permit TONS of inflammatory agents: Omega 6, sugar, refined grains, soy etc.

I really dont think it matters if your veg or not, I think the quality of food you put in your body is what matters. I also know there are a lot of LLMDs that will not treat someone who is a veggie.

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lululymemom
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I believe the McDougall Vegan diet focuses on anti-inflammatory products only.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_hot_arthritis_diet.html

Components of the rich American diet are known to impair its function. Vegetable oils, including those of the omega-3 and omega-6 variety, are particularly strong suppressors of the immune system.

This immune suppressing quality of oils (for example, fish oil and primrose oil) has been used to suppress the pain and inflammation of arthritis, but like too many drug therapies the ultimate outcome may not be best for the patient. Suppression of the immune system prevents it from doing its work of removing invading foreign proteins. Low-fat diets have been shown to retard the development of autoimmune diseases, similar to lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, in experimental animals (Ann Rheum Dis 48:765, 1989).

The importance of the overall diet cannot be overemphasized. Proper foods keep the intestinal barriers strong and the immune system in a fighting condition. Those foods are whole starches, vegetable, and fruits. In addition to being free of animal products, the diet must be low in fat of all kinds--vegetable oil (even olive oil, corn, safflower, and flaxseed oil) and animal fat.

When it comes to blaming individual foods, dairy products seem to be the most troublesome foods, causing the most common and severe reactions. Many reports indicate grains, such as corn and wheat can also aggravate of symptoms. The truth seems to be almost any food can cause trouble, but few people react to vegetable foods.

[ 04-09-2011, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: lululymemom ]

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IGM 41 IND, 83-93+ IGG 31 IND,34 IND, 41++, 58+, 83-93 IND

31 Epitope test neg.

Bartonella henselae 1:100

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richedie
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chiquita,

I hate to say it but saying vegans don't get enough fats is off base.

When I was vegan, I think I ate more fats than I do now, I knew where to get my fats as well. I ate the correct grains, nuts, seeds, veggies that supplied all the fats I needed. I was also really into bodybuilding at the time and was at my strongest. No problem at al getting fats you need.

Keep in mind, at one time, plants had all the B-12 we needed as humans. Only reason that has changed, is because we have sterilized the soil in which we grow food. You realize the animals people eat have to be supplemented with B-12 because the amount in the soil and plants has been destroyed. We don't make proper use of our land and we are seeing the problems.

Dr. Fry says he has seen first hand in the lab that biofilms become stronger with more fats in the diet, go to a low to no fat diet, and the biofilms start to break down.

[ 04-10-2011, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: richedie ]

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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jenniferk32
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Interesting that I felt like crap for years before my Lyme diagnosis, like I was dangling on the edge of "losing it" mentally and physically. When I actually did lose it and ended up in the psych hospital 3 times in 3 months, I had switched over to veganism several months before.

I'm not saying the veganism caused me to snap, but maybe it pushed me over the edge by bringing out the hidden bacteria and toxins? Maybe my body and brain couldn't handle that drastic of a cleansing?

Anyway, I'm back to being an omnivore, mostly because I feel better eating that way. Maybe that's because I'm not detoxifying fast and hard like I was when vegan...IDK, maybe gradually switching over so the body isn't overwhelmed is a good idea.

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gwb
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Dr. Ron, an ND who has Lyme disease, was a vegetarian at one time. He thought that was the optimal diet for his Lyme disease. However, as time went on he discovered that this way of eating (for him) was counterproductive.

He explains why in his blog. He's got a very good website with some interesting articles. If you are interested, you can read some of his articles and his perspective on vegetarianism on his website.

He still has Lyme and believes some of the key ways to keeping it under control is diet (traditional foods), exercise and specific supplements.

Check it out:

http://www.drrons.com/recovering-from-vegetarianism-toc.htm

http://www.drrons.com/diet-chronic-disease-and-optimal-health.htm

http://www.drrons.com/traditional-foods-best-medicine.htm

Gary

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richedie
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gwb, how does one explain that the longest living and healthiest culturs in the world have been vegetarians and many rarely ever touched animals foods. There are lots of examples.
How do you explain the fact that we are biological herbivores? There have been massive studies, researching cultures and populations that have the largest number of centarians and almost all were plant based diets, lots of grains, starches, veggies and fruits, almost no meat.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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gwb
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What cultures do you speak of?

Gary

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gwb
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Vegetarianism in Traditional Cultures?

"Dr. Weston Price was very interested in vegetarian ideas. Of Vitu Levu, a large island in the Pacific Ocean, he wrote, I had hoped to find on it a district far enough from the sea to make it necessary for the natives to have lived entirely on land foods

one of the purposes of the expedition to the South Seas was to find, if possible, plants or fruits which together, without the use of animal products, were capable of providing all of the requirements for growth and for maintenance of good health and a high state of physical efficiency.

He expressed his disappointment that I have not found a single group of primitive racial stock which was building and maintaining excellent bodies by living entirely on plant foods.

I have found in many parts of the world most devout representatives of modern ethical systems advocating the restriction of foods to the vegetable products. In every instance where the groups involved had been long under this teaching, I found evidence of degeneration.

Dr. Prices disappointment that vegan diets are invariably deficient appears to be echoed in the histories of many of us who follow his teachings. Who among us has not at some time tried to follow a vegetarian or near vegetarian regime?

Vegan, fruitarian, vegetarian, ovo-lacto-vegetarian, with or without occasional fish or chickenit sometimes seemed we were conditioned to eat as little animal food as we could get by on. Even after reaching an intellectual understanding of Prices work and the critical importance of nutrients, especially fat-soluble activators, found only in animal foods, we often appear to be perhaps unconsciously concerned about eating too much of them.

Such concern and an accompanying aversion to eating very much animal food is most marked, of course, before one learns about Prices work. Years of vegetarian or near vegetarian eating result in, to use Dr. Prices word, degeneration. How does one recover?"

Source: http://www.drrons.com/recovering-from-vegetarianism.htm

Gary

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lululymemom
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quote:
Originally posted by gwb:
What cultures do you speak of?

Gary

Please look at the link for cultures that live primarily on a plant based diet.

http://en.wikipedia.org:80/wiki/Blue_Zone

Just an interesting bit of information:

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=iOG3b5vnIgk&feature=related

--------------------
IGM 41 IND, 83-93+ IGG 31 IND,34 IND, 41++, 58+, 83-93 IND

31 Epitope test neg.

Bartonella henselae 1:100

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richedie
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I am not trying to start an argument. I am just going off research and what I have been taught when I was in school to be a nutritionist. Even in my text books it mentioned a vegetarian diet as being the healthiest.

There are quite a few, more all the time pro sports players switching to a vegetarian diet as they notice more energy, they heal faster from injury, etc.

If I can find it I will post it but there was a 30 or 40 year US longevity study and they concluded a plant based diet with little meat was healthiest.

Traditional Okinawans were loaded with people living in good health past 100, and they survived mostly on a plant based diet with small amounts of fish once in a while. Unfortunately things are changing with more young people in Okinawa eating USA inspired foods, fast food, etc.

Others:
Abkhasians - 10% of diet from animal foods
Vilcabambans - 1% from animal foods
Hunzans _ 1% as well

I have read countless times that Weston Price was a fraud.

Go to WestonPrice.org
A quick perusal of the various pages at this site revealed so much misinformation and outright garbage science, it's almost not worth discussing. As an example, they feel that Laetril is a sure fire cancer cure. The real research on laetril shows it to be completely worthless as an anti-cancer treatment. Yet, partly because of websites like this, and the desperation of terminally ill people, the quakery lives on! Further reading brings up example after example of bogus dietary advice. It's another website that can be turned to when humor is in short supply.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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GiGi
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Are you able to absorb what you eat? Do an amino acid test and find out whether you have a chance to detox the onslaught of neurotoxins. And do a hair analysis and find out where you stand with essential minerals. that will tell you instantly what you should look for in a diet.

Weston Price was not a fraud. I wish we had a lot more of them. We dug up out of the earth enough toxins - now we have to learn to deal with them.

Take care.

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gwb
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Glad you're not trying to start an argument. Neither am I. Just presenting some information for people to read so that they can come to their own conclusions.

Dr. Ron is an ND, a pretty smart one too. I guess he saw this diet as something that would benefit his overall health and healing with Lyme disease. I've been eating grass fed organic meats with tons of vegetables for over a year now and feel better than I have in over 20 years. I eat two eggs a day and lots of coconut oil, butter, cream, etc. My cholesterol is normal, first time it's been normal in 30 years.

It isn't about who's right or who's wrong, it's all about what works best for you. This has worked for me very well, it's worked for Dr. Ron, and it's worked well for tons of other people who have followed Sally Fallon's way of eating.

She also promotes eating traditional, organic grass fed meats and organic vegetables, etc. http://www.amazon.com/Nourishing-Traditions-Challenges-Politically-Dictocrats/dp/0967089735/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302467752&sr=1-1

Everyone has to decide what's best for them. This thread has a lot of good information on both sides of the debate. That's what helps people learn and make choices they believe will help get them well.

This is what's helped me and I don't feel it's a fraud. My improved health speaks for itself. But if it gives you some good humor, well, that's a good thing! ; )

Gary

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richedie
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So we disagree. I just tend to go more by documented research and I like to look at what the longest living and healthiest populations have eaten, nuff said. [Smile]
I look at them as an example of how I should eat.

I read interest study that found that vegetarians had higher levels of beneficial bacteria than meat eaters. I will see if I can find it.

On the absorbing nutrients issue, testing I had 2 or 3 years ago displayed that I was nit deficient anywhere and heavy metal testing showed I gave low levels! My doctor feels I detox really well.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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lymie_in_md
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I'm just going to say, a plant based diet is very important for many people. Now Paul Pitchford doesn't advocate no meat just less of it. Most of his research is based on what he's seen in Asia where it far more plant based then meat.

The tapestry of the world and what you eat is base on what is available, even insects. The eskimo's and mongolians do very well on high animal content diet.

I don't trust studies, because they are all flawed concocted based on a narrow point view. So studies might not really reflect reality, just a small portion of it. I really believe in common sense in what you want to eat. Eating meat or eggs you search for quality, I'm not so sure the studies care about quality. Eating plant based is also determined on quality and again common sense. Most plants are high in oxalates and goitrogens, you have to factor that in what you eat as well. Some lymies not all may not do to well on having a diet too high in oxalates if the body can't handle them.

So, a diet is specific to the person. So Sally Fallon and Paul Pitchford are great people, and I would find it disappointing to throw stones at either one of them, because they both put out information they are passionate about. Information we need weigh in our own minds what might best work for us.

My diet is plant based but also animal based similar to Gary's and I'm a body builder too! I'm turning 56 in couple of months and am closing in on being in the best shape of my life.

--------------------
Bob

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yanivnaced
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Has anybody seen the movie "Fat Sick and Nearly Dead". I watched a couple of days ago & highly recommend it. In the movie the guy had some autoimmune condition of many years which caused inflammation all over his body/skin.

He went on a 60 day juicing fast, which he documented on film. After completing the fast I think his condition went away and he got off meds such as steroids and other things.

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richedie
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Yes, I used to belong to a vegan bodybuilding club. Some of those guys were huge.

I tried to find "Fat Sick and Nearly Dead" on, On Demand but not luck.

That guy made a huge change though, went from eating garbage and being terribly overweight. I eat well and am in tremendous shape. I wonder what a juice fast would do for me.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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gwb
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quote:
Originally posted by richedie:
So we disagree. I just tend to go more by documented research and I like to look at what the longest living and healthiest populations have eaten, nuff said. [Smile]
I look at them as an example of how I should eat.

I read interest study that found that vegetarians had higher levels of beneficial bacteria than meat eaters. I will see if I can find it.

On the absorbing nutrients issue, testing I had 2 or 3 years ago displayed that I was nit deficient anywhere and heavy metal testing showed I gave low levels! My doctor feels I detox really well.

Did you read ANY of the links I provided you with? I can provide you with tons of documented research that shows that people who eat moderate amounts of grass fed meats, clean seafood, along with good portions of organic vegetables, have better health in the long run than those who eat only vegetables and fruits.

But you know what, you aren't going to be convinced, because like you said, and I quote, "I am just going off research and what I have been taught when I was in school to be a nutritionist. Even in my text books it mentioned a vegetarian diet as being the healthiest".

In other words, you've made up your mind and no amount of research that counters what you "read in your text books" is going to make one bit of difference in your thinking about this.

Guess what? There's new research, new text books and other studies that say otherwise. But whatever you chose to believe makes no difference to me.

I'm not here to change minds, I'm just here to provide information. I don't get the sense that you've read any of the links I provided you with, if I'm wrong I apologize in advance.

But you haven't said anything about what Dr. Ron has written from his own experience as a vegetarian who happens to be an ND who happens to have Lyme disease. Why would he chose a diet that would be counter productive to his health and well being?

Anyway, like you said, we disagree--yep, that's something we can agree on. : ) So what? You happy, me happy, we all happy. So, let's all be one big happy family together, eh? [Wink]

Gary

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lululymemom
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I think the only way to truly appreciate a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle is to try it. There is no other way to explain how beneficial it can really be. There is something to be said for all those that go from eating meat to plant based diet. It doesn't usually go the other way around. Even though some really have a hard time giving up meat, they usually find it worthwhile in the end.

Speaking for myself, one with Lyme and Bartonella, I have never been on any antibiotic treatment and have been sick for at least 10-26 years. Most days I function at around 75-80%. I was much sicker in my early days when I was eating meat. I attribute this to a vegetarian lifestyle.

--------------------
IGM 41 IND, 83-93+ IGG 31 IND,34 IND, 41++, 58+, 83-93 IND

31 Epitope test neg.

Bartonella henselae 1:100

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gwb
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lululymemom,

So glad to know you are doing better and contribute it to your vegetarian lifestyle. I would not be surprised if that's true. Who can explain it? Sometimes people do better on the meat and vegetable diet (like me), others do better on a vegetarian diet.

What's important is you are making progress on this diet and nothing else really matters. I hope and pray you continue to get better and eventually beat this stinkin disease!

That's what we're all striving for Everyone has to take the path that works best for them. There's no "one size fits all", unfortunately.

Keep up the good work and keep us posted on your progress.

Gary

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nefferdun
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The American Diabetic Association, Kidney Disease Association etc say to avoid red meat.

A study at Georgetown University showed the vegan diet greatly reduced the need for medication in type two diabetics - and in several cases no medications was needed - basically cured.

I posted all the links before.

I think it is much healthier. No doubt. I am trying to convert completely. I have not had red meat in 2 and a half years but still haven't given up chicken, although less and less. I am going to a vegan cooking class next week.

With the radiation in the ocean and the oil spill it will be easy to give up fish.

I am really glad to see so many people with lyme disease going vegan/vegetarian.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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GiGi
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For whatever it is worth, no matter which way things are twisted and turned, we are living with two many neurotoxins having dug up the earth everywhere. Toxic metals can only go into solution in an acidic environment. If you are among those who do not absorb well due to leaky gut, food allergies, regulation problems, metal allergies, etc., it is difficult to keep the amino acids at a level to support serious detoxing which everyone with Lyme has to deal with.

To get rid of the infections, metals need to go. It is not possible to do this on a vegetarian diet. I have heard Dr. K. saying many times "never saw a healthy vegetarian".

Take care and best to all.

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disturbedme
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I was vegan for over 4 years.... didn't help my symptoms. I actually got full blown sick around my 3rd year of being vegan. I wish it helped, but didn't help me.

The thing that actually helped me the most was going completely gluten free. That helped my symptoms more than going vegan!!!!

Not that I'm saying you shouldn't go vegan or vegetarian; I'm definitely not saying that.

I started eating chicken/turkey again, but will never eat red meat again in my life. And some days I want to go vegetarian again and stop eating chicken and turkey. I also still steer clear of dairy and will never go back to that either.

But truthfully, the best thing for my health was going gluten free.

--------------------
One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar.
~ Helen Keller

My Lyme Story

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jenniferk32
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As an addition to what others have said about vegetarianism and veganism, I have to mention my sister-in-law. She's a "natural" vegetarian, as in she doesn't do it because she thinks it's healthy or because she feels sorry for animals.

She does it because she has an aversion to meat. She hates the smell, the taste, everything about it. She's refused to touch it since being a very young child.

I've noticed, though, that she is a very unhealthy individual. It took her 10 years of unprotected sex to get pregnant. Her and my brother had accepted that they would have to adopt.

When she has any kind of injury, she takes an exceptionally long time to heal. She had a broken thumb that took, no joke, a year to heal. She also broke her foot just from starting up a non-strenuous walking regime. That was 6 months ago and she still has not healed entirely. She also got a blood clot in her leg that is covered over somehow and has never healed.

Surgery for that would be dangerous, so she has to take coumadin for the rest of her life. She is also about 75 pounds overweight.

The disclaimer to this that the pro-vegetarian/vegan people could take into consideration is that she eats like crap. She would choose a donut and a latte any day over some steel-cut oats and fruit.

I still don't know though- maybe without meat she just doesn't have enough nutrients to heal properly when injured.

It could be either way. In the least though, I believe it's quite possible to be vegan or vegetarian and still be unhealthy if you don't choose high-quality foods. And a person who eats animal products can probably be healthier than some vegetarians if they eat plenty of fruits, vegetables, and whole grains while avoiding sugar, caffiene, "bad" fats, refined grains, etc.

So to me, it doesn't matter as much whether you're a vegetarian, vegan, or follow an omnivorous diet as much as it matters to make quality choices within that type of diet.

You can eat healthfully or crappily in any diet.

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gwb
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People who are vegetarians or vegans usually have to supplement heavily to make up for the nutrients they don't get from eating animal proteins. Most vegetarians I know have a cupboard full of supplements that they *must* take lest their body suffer from vitamin deficiency.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/04/11/how-moms-vegan-diet-unintentionally-killed-her-innocent-child.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/09/17/angelina-jolie-says-vegan-diet-nearly-killed-her.aspx

I know people can be healthy on a vegetarian diet. They just need to be aware of what they need to supplement with to replace the nutrients they're not getting from animal protein or they will suffer the consequences. Same for those who eat too much red meat, especially factory farmed animals that are filled with all kinds of poisons. Not healthy at all.

Dr. Mercola has a test on his site that helps people discover their body type to help them determine which foods are best for their body. Might want to check it out.

Balance is the key.

Gary

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nefferdun
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Talking about vegetarian diet, let's just assume it is a healthy diet void of processed highly refined garbage food. Let's just assume that the diet has whole grains, legumes, nuts, seeds, fruits and vegetables - not potato chips, french fries, white bread, sugar etc which with meat or no meat is a killer.

A friend of mine went to a lecture by Dr. K and he said the vegan diet is healthiest. I don't know what he believes but most people who have studied nutrition know the benefits of a vegan diet. It a no brainer these days. People just don't want to convert -

Arguing about the vegan diet being healthier is like arguing with the CDC about chronic lyme ( which does not exist), needing more than three weeks of abx.

I was a vegetarian for years. I was extremely healthy on that diet. I was carded until I was 32 years old. I started eating meat because of my husband but now he is following my lead back into that lifestyle.

I have a vegan friend with two children who have never had meat. They are brilliant - highly gifted - and so beautiful. The little boy was telling me the LATIN names of butterflies he liked when he was only 8 years old.

They weren't dead on arrival - far from it.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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lululymemom
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by nefferdun:
[QB]
A friend of mine went to a lecture by Dr. K and he said the vegan diet is healthiest.

I'm confused, is this the same Dr. K. that said:

As quoted by Gigi
"I have heard Dr. K. saying many times "never saw a healthy vegetarian".

--------------------
IGM 41 IND, 83-93+ IGG 31 IND,34 IND, 41++, 58+, 83-93 IND

31 Epitope test neg.

Bartonella henselae 1:100

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Jamers
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How can a doctor like Dr. K say that he's never seen a healthy vegetarian? Considering he sees extremely ill patients who are most likely meat eaters I guess he could also say he's never seen a healthy meat eater! It goes both ways.

When the documentary "Forks over Knives" comes out I recommend that everyone sees it. It shows how a vegan diet reverses heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer and diabetes. Sounds pretty healthy to me!!

--------------------
Diagnosed Pos. Lyme Nov. 17, 2010, Igx.
Pos. Babesia Duncani March 2011, Igx.
Clinical diagnosis for Bartonella

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nefferdun
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Yes, it is the same Dr. K

So this is conflicting information. GiGi said in another thread that Dr. K said he had never seen a healthy vegetarian which surprised me. I decided he was not the doctor for me.

But someone I know that lives on the east coast actually went to one of his lectures (when he was in that area) and he told her the vegan diet is best. Maybe he has changed his mind or maybe it was a misunderstanding.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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richedie
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quote:
Originally posted by jadams:
How can a doctor like Dr. K say that he's never seen a healthy vegetarian? Considering he sees extremely ill patients who are most likely meat eaters I guess he could also say he's never seen a healthy meat eater! It goes both ways.

When the documentary "Forks over Knives" comes out I recommend that everyone sees it. It shows how a vegan diet reverses heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer and diabetes. Sounds pretty healthy to me!!

Because Dr. K. doesn't know what he is talking about? Doctors get no nutritional training in school, it is optional. What do they know? They should stick to medicine. I was vegan for 10 years and at my strongest and healthiest. I guarantee I was much healthier than Dr. K. Only reason I switched up was because I started experimenting with other diets out of curiosity.
I have yet to come across one doctor in all me years who was as healthy as I was. Only issue they could ever find was a supposed infection, which after years of abx, has not cleared.

There really is no argument any longer to eat animal products. None. Period. We should do what we feel best doing though. I still eat meat but it is a very small part of my diet, just adds some flavoring here and there. Meat just grosses me out most of the time! LOL.

Lats I heard, Dr. K is pushing a vegan diet. I will say, once I am off abx, have no dietary restrictions, I am going back on a vegan diet, but will avoid as usual...all refined or processed grains. I will stick to whole intact grains, veggies, beans, fruits, etc and take lots of pau d arco, probiotics and whatever else I think I should do for yeast.

I always hear avoiding carbs is the way to be yeast free but in studies, vegetarians are always shown to have the most beneficial bacteria and the least amount of yeast.

It is so confusing. One so called expert will say eat high protein, meat and veggies like Dr. B and another will say veggie or vegan to increase immunity.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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raw vegan runner
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WHen I go to the Dr's I don't tell them about my diet unless asked. Every doctor I currently see is at LEAST 30lbs OVERWEIGHT. I can pretty much guarantee they are not up on the latest healthy nutrition.

As far as needing to have a cupboard full of supps to be healthy as a veg/vegan...I disagree. Aside from B12 you do NOT have to supplement *IF* you are eating a well balanced diet free from processed foods. I went YEARS without taking supplements (including B12, I was NEVER deficient, btw...and I was tested)It wasn't until I started treating Lyme that I started taking fistsfull of supps. every day. I do NOT believe you have to do that if you are commited to eating a variety of fruits, veggies, whole grains and seeds/nuts/beans(if you can...I do not, or at least not much)

I will say, its not for everyone and I have seen some VERY unhealthy veg/vegans, *junk-food-vegetarians* I call them. They don't eat meat, but they don't eat anything balanced or healthy either! It is a very commited lifestyle...you must focus on what your nutritional intake is over the course of a weeks time and be sure you are getting a good variety. Most *truly* healthy veg/vegans I know have perfect bloodwork and do not supplement unless they are under stress/sick/etc.

The LAST person I would listen to about my diet is my doctor. Even nutritionists are not up to speed, imo...

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richedie
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Plus, there are a LOT more unhealthy people who eat the standard American diet. THAT is the real problem.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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emla999/Lyme
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For what it's worth....

Meat based and ketogenic diets (usually high in animal fat) may be useful in the treatment of diseases such as cancer, diabetes, ALS, Alzheimer's Disease, Parkinson's Disease, epilepsy and etc.

For cancer:

http://www.einstein.yu.edu/rechargetrial/page.aspx

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17313687

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19049606


For ALS and other neurological diseases:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16584562

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2367001/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19559687


For Diabetes

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325029/


.

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emla999/Lyme
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And in regards to animal products and diabetes.

According to a recent study out of Harvard University, a rare fatty acid found in whole fat dairy products may lower the risk of developing type 2 diabetes. It may also help with insulin resistance.

http://www.usnews.com/mobile/articles_mobile/whole-fat-dairy-products-may-lower-type-2-diabetes-risk-study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21173413


.

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map1131
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Bottom line we depend on the FDA or other gov agencies to keep our food healthy.

Well hello? Anyone see a problem with relying on FDA or any other agency and what they ALLOW to be consumed and used & marketed in the US? Sometimes I think they want us all sick, lazy, fat and happy....so we can depend on them to help us.

I do big time. He!! they allow families to live in toxic grave yards. They put the poor people from Katrina in toxic trailors to live?

Heck they back drugs that are harmful to our citizens every day. The gov would rather us be addicted to these toxic meds than deal with the real issues as to why Americans are so ill.

We can't even get our government that are sworn into office to protect and serve the people to admit we have a serious Lyme Disease and Vector illness epidimic in this country and around the world.

They went off half cocked on West Nile Virus and Bird Flu like a bunch of chickens screaming "the sky is falling. The sky is falling."

Pam

--------------------
"Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill

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MichaelTampa
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Just a few days ago, went from 50% fat vegan diet to 10-12% fat vegan diet. A day and a half into this, I got just a terrible herx feeling of fatigue and headache and very cold (from blood thinning?).

I did this as I was inspired by recently hearing low fat could be important for biofilm, and I feel I am in the stage of having done about what I can with the bugs/abx/herbs, and needing to get rid of biofilm. So, want to say, there is real potential in taking this approach, can be very powerful, but also taking it slower may be better. After that reaction, I backed off and started eating more fat, will have to figure it out as I go, how much low fat I can handle.

Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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