Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
wow, that is amazing. It does look like worms. I heard that Babesia looks like berry clusters, I believe it was my dermatologist that told me that.
I have no idea because I haven't seen it under a microscope. I'm ready to go out and buy one.
Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
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The problem is that Gary cannot prove that what he is seeing is babesia. Unless he sees the maltese cross formation which is diagnostic then all he has proven is that he has some sort of unknown blood borne parasite.
A lab could also do a PCR test on the same bloodsample to prove that it was actually babesia. But when hubby tried this Clongen lab found protozoa on his blood slide but his babesia PCR was negative even when they grew it out in a culture medium which is supposed to improve the odds of a positive PCR.
And as everyone who has ever had a F lab slide done then you know all about the dangers of calling a bacteria bartonella just because it has the right shape -- it could be mycoplasma or haemobartonella or many other things. Coccobacilli is a pretty common shape for bacteria.
I certainly don't want to discourage Gary. I know it is empowering to actually see something in your blood that the medical doctors deny because antibody tests are so inconclusive of current versus past infection.
But technically what Gary saw was a blood borne protozoa which may or may not actually be babesia. It could be malaria or several other things besides babesia.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Hambone
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posted
Is that an electron microscope?
I thought I read somewhere that these TBD's can only be seen with an electron microscope.
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lululymemom
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posted
I almost expected the babesia to look like the parasites in these threads:
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
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lymetwister
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19590
posted
I am PCR pos. for Babesia Duncani.
I started back on Mepron last night with Arteminisin.
I'm gonna try and bite the bullet and suck it up.
My pics match up with Dr. S's in Florida's paper. Doesn't have to be the Maltese Cross BTW.
Look at Page 4 in this .pdf file from Dr. S in Florida. His picture is exactly what I saw and filmed and provided for all of you. He claims to be the world expert on Lyme and Babesia.
posted
Gary interesting for sure. Just wondering what type of Microscope you are using? And what do you think about the comment on Youtube about what you are seeing:
" Gary, I can tell you that from looking at smears for 20 years that, these are not parasites. What you have is platelets and small cell fragments adherent to your RBC's. That is what the two things you saw were.
I see them all the time in healthy people , but more in improperly prepared slides. The horseshoe shaped cells are called stomatocytes, and are not a result of parasites. I will be looking some more at your slides Monday (stained correctly), and hopefully help find something though."
dysplasticable 16 hours ago
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I agree that the Maltese Cross is not the only form of babesia seen on a slide -- but it is the only form that is assumed to be babesia based on the visual aspects only -- just like a bulls eye rash is assumed to be lyme (borrelia burgdorferi).
If you have trouble with the meds it might be easier if you took the mepron every day but take the art on some sort of pulsing schedule until you get the load down some. Hubby's new LLMD consultant told us to just do what he could tolerate -- to back off if needed -- but to keep plugging away even at low doses.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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lymetwister
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posted
The comment on the youtube page is from a Pathologist I went to HS with. He is not a Lyme Dr., although he is a Dr. He is not use to looking at ID, but rather Cancers and other Biopsies, etc.
He is however very smart and he has 4 vials of my blood I sent him last week. That is the part about making stains he speaks about.
When you make a blood smear and stain it, everything on that cell will be dead. If you want to look at live blood, there is only one way to do it and that is the way I have done it.
I was using Phase Contrast and Brightfield in my video. I wanted to see the Ketes, but under Darkfield I am not seeing any, but I do believe that they are in the tissues, hence the reason I can't see them.
My point in doing all of this, is two fold. 1st, to find my own infection and confirm what I already know, but since I'm so med sensitive, I will start with treating the Babs first. I will just treat as Ms. Seibert speaks about and do the best I can.
The other reason for doing all of this is to show everyone that the lab testing is terrible and the bacteria can be seen.
Gary
[ 05-24-2011, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: lymetwister ]
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote: My pics match up with Dr. S's in Florida's paper. Doesn't have to be the Maltese Cross BTW.
Look at Page 4 in this .pdf file from Dr. S in Florida. His picture is exactly what I saw and filmed and provided for all of you. He claims to be the world expert on Lyme and Babesia.
Not really......the shape does, but every pic on his site has been stained....yours hasn't. It could just be a shadow or DNA fragment.
Below is a pic (clipart) of a RBC that has spurs around the outside...it's called an echinocyte ( the one on left). Looking at a one dimensional view from the top like you have will produce a shadow that looks like a parasite of some sort.
The cell that you have could be an achanthocyte, which only has 5 to 10 spurs total
There are many other explanations besides Babesia....so you will need to learn how to stain before you narrow it down, and even then there could be Howell Jolly bodies, which look exactly like Babs or Malaria.
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lymetwister
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posted
I have staining supplies on order. I am familiar with echinocytes and I do see many of them, however they are not what I am reporting as the Parasites I am seeing in the video.
I have looked again today and I see movement of the Parasites inside the cell. Not everything has to be stained in order to see it.
Live blood microscopy is the only way that I know of to see things move.
Like I posted earlier, my good high school friend is gonna make some slides from blood I sent him. He is the chief of pathology at a major institution, so I will wait to hear back from him on this.
Gary
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
If Babesia were that easy to see without staining, labs wouldn't take the time or trouble to do it....it would save them a bunch of money if they could diagnose with LBA.
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lymetwister
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posted
Micul, I won't turn this into a debate. I took the time to invest in a nice microscope. I'm sharing what it appears I saw. Again, I'm PCR positive for Babs. and I just found that out. I'm treating it now as in the past it was just a clinical diagnosis.
It appears to be what I am seeing, so I am sharing information.
Labs don't do LBA b/c it is time consuming. Instead they use computerized equipment to check for antibodies. In this day and age, man has been replaced by machines. I don't see how you think doing LBA is cost saving.
Your signature is well written and it is what I live by with this illness. Why not give me credit for trying ?
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote: Labs don't do LBA b/c it is time consuming. Instead they use computerized equipment to check for antibodies. In this day and age, man has been replaced by machines. I don't see how you think doing LBA is cost saving.
Yes it is time consuming, but staining is even more time consuming because of the staining process. I was only comparing LBA to staining....I never said a word about routine lab serum tests.
I didn't say that your supposedly infected cell was an echinocyte either, I just used it as an example because things need to be considered in 3D, not just a top view. If you look at what I said again, I said that your cell in question could possibly be an "achanthocyte, which only has 5 to 10 spurs total".....that's just a "for instance"
I think that it's great that you bought a scope, but you should get a lot more experience in identifying babs before being so sure that you're right.
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glm1111
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posted
Folks,
Let's give Gary some credit here for trying to find answers. He is an excellent researcher and has contributed positive findings when he has them.
We need people like him to help us find answers, to this complex puzzle. You don't always have to agree, but being kind doesn't cost anything.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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lululymemom
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posted
I think we all want to know if he really did find babesia.. It's sometimes important to get an educated objective opinion. It helps us draw our own conclusions.
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
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Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
Gary,
I commend you for posting this. I have not seen anything like this on Lymenet. There may be different opinions as to what is being seen on the slide.
At least we can look at it and discuss it.
Fabulous job.
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chiquita incognita
Unregistered
posted
Even while I also ask the question how we know for sure it' s babesia and not something else, I too commend you for posting this and for the empowerment this can give us. It's terrific of you to do it and we appreciate you for it.
Would still love to hear back what your doctor/friend says about it, but bravo for such helpful and supportive work Gary!
lymetwister
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Member # 19590
posted
The Verdict is in. Dr. S, yes the famous Dr. S who is the Babesia expert in FL looked at my video.
I wrote him as I communicate with him from time to time and he told me without a doubt, this is Babesia.
So there you have it. I guess it doesn't get any better then this :-)
Now, to treat it. I'm 2 days in the Mepron, 1 day on Arteminsin 200mg and I had such bad nighmares last night. My deceased brother was alive and well, but bad things in the dream. Can't explain it, but I woke up horrible. I'm already feeling the Herxy flu stuff come on.
I guess here is where I have to suck it up !
..........(0 0) .---oOO-- (_)-----. ╔════════════════════╗ ║Be Easy on me Mepron ╚════════════════════╝ '---------------oOO ........|__|__| .......... || || ....... ooO Ooo
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Haley
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posted
Mepron gave me crazy nightmares.
So when are you taking blood samples ? Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
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lymetwister
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19590
posted
I am PCR pos. for Babesia Duncani through Igenix. I am IGG pos. for Babesia Duncani through Labcorp.
Labcorp does NOT run IGM.
I see it, I feel it, I have it :-(
Now, to get rid of it.
Day 4 Mepron 750mg 2 x day Arteminisin 200mg/day Colloidal Silver 15ppm 1/2 quart / day
I'm hanging on...
Gary
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Lymeorsomething
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posted
Gary, what did your pathologist friend come up with when looking at your slides?
It would be interesting to get the different professional interpretations of the blood samples...
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