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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » lab results question

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Author Topic: lab results question
jbiology
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So, my son had a positive lyme (and babesiosis) test in 2007. He was treated for a year and seemed to be ok. In the past year we've noticed some emotional/neurological symptoms come back (or get worse) and he was diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome (with anxiety and ADHD).

After a brief round of antibiotics for a nasty bug this winter, I thought maybe he had a herx. This made me nervous, but the doctor was not concerned. He ordered a WB through labcorp to appease my fears. It was negative. However, with our family's experience with chronic lyme, we weren't convinced so we bugged him again and he conceded to ordering the test from IgeneX.

The results are negative for IgM and positive for IgG (which I hope is just showing his past infection). I should be releived, but the "negative" IgG wasn't completely negative, and the +'s on the IgG don't match the +'s on the IgM, which also makes me worry.

I'm posting the results below and would appreciate any thoughts/insights you all might have. My other challenge is that we now live in a different place than we did when he was first diagnosed and have yet to find a decent LLMD, especially one familiar with kids... and definitely not one that will actually take our insurance. I'm overwhelmed and not sure what to do.

Igenex results
IgM
18 +
34 IND
41 +
83-93 IND

IgM
23-25 IND
31 ++++
34 +
58 +

--------------------
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.+++
Diagnosed with Lyme in 2005. Suffered for years before that. Still treating/fighting it.
Son diagnosed with Lyme and Babesia in 2007. Son diagnosed with Asperger's in 2011.

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Maradona
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Sorry to say but I had less + then your son and my LLMD told me I have Lyme and I,m treating for more then a year now.
If your son has symptoms better find a good LLMD.One think I learned in this years do complex t5reatment start with detox and chileting and bilding your immunity tof the body .Without immunity our body can not recover with any drug or herbal.
Take care

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by jbiology:
I should be releived, but the "negative" IgG wasn't completely negative, and the +'s on the IgG don't match the +'s on the IgM, which also makes me worry.

-
I've never seen matching IgG and IgM's .. I would think that would be rare. My test results were way less than this test result. I was successfully treated. I hope your son will be too!! [Smile]

Print this out and read it over and over..

Western Blot Explanation
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/42077

From the above link:

BANDS....

18: An outer surface protein.

22: Possibly a variant of outer surface protein C.

23-25: Outer surface protein C (osp C).

28: An outer surface protein.

30: Possibly a variant of outer surface protein A.

31: Outer surface protein A (osp A). 34: Outer surface protein B (osp B).

37: Unknown, but it is in the medical literature that it is a borrelia-associated antibody. Other labs consider it significant.

39: Unknown what this antigen is, but based on research at the National Institute of Health (NIH), other Borrelia (such as Borrelia recurrentis that causes relapsing fever), do not even have the genetics to code for the 39 kDa antigen, much less produce it. It is the most specific antibody for borreliosis of all.

41: Flagella or tail. This is how Borrelia burgdorferi moves around, by moving the flagella. Many bacteria have flagella. This is the most common borreliosis antibody.

45: Heat shock protein. This helps the bacteria survive fever. The only bacteria in the world that does not have heat shock proteins is Treponema pallidum, the cause of syphilis.

58: Heat shock protein.

66: Heat shock protein. This is the second most common borrelia antibody.

73: Heat shock protein.

83: This is the DNA or genetic material of Borrelia burgdorferi. It is the same thing as the 93, based upon the medical literature. But laboratories vary in assigning significance to the 83 versus the 93.

93: The DNA or genetic material of Borrelia burgdorferi.


In my clinical experience, if a patient has symptoms suspicious for borreliosis, and has one or more of the following bands, there is a very high probability the patient has borreliosis.

These bands are 18, 22, 23-25, 28, 30, 31, 34, 37, 39, 41, 83, and 93.

[---- from DR C's update from 2005 ---
----The significant antibodies, in my opinion, are the 18, 23-25, 28, 30, 31, 34, 39, 58, 66 and 93.----]

++++++++++

also from the above link:

"Many would say the " +/-" equivocal ["IND"] bands are not significant. The problem I have with that, is that there are "-" negative bands. The lab has no trouble calling some bands negative. So they must be seeing something when they put "+/-" at some bands.

The only thing that makes sense, is that there is a little bit of that antibody present in your serum. If the "+/-" equivocal is reported on the borrelia associated bands, it is usually significant, in my clinical experience. This is a strong clue that I am on the right track."

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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jbiology
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I just realized I goofed in the list, the top list is IgM, the bottom is IgG. My own "lyme brain" symptoms have been pretty bad this week!

Now, if only I could FIND an LLMD to look at my son!

--------------------
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.+++
Diagnosed with Lyme in 2005. Suffered for years before that. Still treating/fighting it.
Son diagnosed with Lyme and Babesia in 2007. Son diagnosed with Asperger's in 2011.

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Lymetoo
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So is he positive on the IgM or not??

Have you gotten a list of drs over in Seeking??

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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hurtingramma
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These are his results: (my grandson)

Igenex IgM was negative (+ for 18, IND for 34, + for 41, IND for 83-93)
Igenex IgG was positive (IND for 23-25, ++++ for 31, + for 41, + for 58)

--------------------
"Few of us can do great things, but all of us can do small things with great love". Mother Theresa

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Lymetoo
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From the link above:

"With most infections, your immune system first forms IgM antibodies, then in about 2 to 4 weeks, you see IgG antibodies. In some infections, IgG antibodies may be detectable for years.

Because Borrelia burgdorferi is a chronic persistent infection that may last for decades, you would think patients with chronic symptoms would have positive IgG Western blots.

But actually, more IgM blots are positive in chronic borreliosis than IgG. Every time Borrelia burgdorferi reproduces itself, it may stimulate the immune system to form new IgM antibodies.

Some patients have both IgG and IgM blots positive. But if either the IgG or IgM blot is positive, overall it is a positive result.

Response to antibiotics is the same if either is positive, or both. Some antibodies against the borrelia are given more significance if they are IgG versus IgM, or vice versa.

Since this is a chronic persistent infection, this does not make a lot of sense to me. A newly formed Borrelia burgdorferi should have the same antigen parts as the previous bacteria that produced it.

But anyway, from my clinical experience, these borrelia associated bands usually predict a clinical change in symptoms with antibiotics, regardless of whether they are IgG or IgM."

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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hurtingramma
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So, tutu, you would say that it looks like a yes to you? Telling me what the specific bands are is not much help to me; I'm scientifically challenged, but jbiology is not (hence the name). She's very busy these days and doesn't have much time to devote to finding a Dr. as she mentioned in her posts. Thanks for your help. You can pm me if you want (or her).

--------------------
"Few of us can do great things, but all of us can do small things with great love". Mother Theresa

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hurtingramma
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^^ Bringing back to top - so Tutu, do you think this is positive or not? We are sort of having a family dispute over this. I say yes, they say no. What is your opinion.
Behavioral problems escalating, but other symptoms are not present, other than an occasional headache, according to them.

--------------------
"Few of us can do great things, but all of us can do small things with great love". Mother Theresa

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1629665573&ref=name

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Beth22
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imo, it's positive.
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hurtingramma
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Not treated, but in my opinion he needs to be.

--------------------
"Few of us can do great things, but all of us can do small things with great love". Mother Theresa

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1629665573&ref=name

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ktkdommer
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I treated a son with a less positive result than yours. IND are as good as positive with IgeneX.

I believe this to be a positive. Any other labwork show abnormal?

So sorry you are going through this again.

Best wishes!

--------------------
Things are never dull. After 3 fighting Lyme, 2 are in remission. Youngest is still sick, age 22. He has new diagnosed Chiari Malformation and Ehlers Danlos Syndrome.

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Summer3
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I agree, that seems like a positive test. The significance of knowing about the different bands is that some of the bands (like 31, 23-25, 34, 39 etc.) are specific to Lyme disease. A person would not show a positive on those bands unless exposed to Lyme bacteria.

--------------------
http://www.lymepie.blogspot.com

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dal123
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YES, He is POSITIVE for LD. With treatment the IND's become positive showing the immune response. Right now, he may be unable to fully mount a defense, hence the IND results.
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hurtingramma
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^^

--------------------
"Few of us can do great things, but all of us can do small things with great love". Mother Theresa

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Lymetoo
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Is this a relative, hurtingramma??

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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