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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Gut Biota Never Recover from Antibiotic Use: Loss Extends to Future Generations

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Author Topic: Gut Biota Never Recover from Antibiotic Use: Loss Extends to Future Generations
sparkle7
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http://www.gaia-health.com/articles501/000520-gut-bacteria-antibiotic.shtml

Evidence shows the mass antibiotics experiment is devastating our children's health. It may be the reason so many struggle for breath and can't assimilate food properly.
by Heidi Stevenson
29 August 2011


Emerging research shows that the harmful effects of antibiotics go much further than the development of drug resistant diseases. The beneficial bacteria lost to antibiotics, along with disease-inducing bacteria, do not recover fully. Worse, flora lost by a mother is also lost to her babies. The missing beneficial gut bacteria are likely a major factor behind much of the chronic disease experienced today. The continuous use of antibiotics is resulting in each generation experiencing worse health than their parents.

Martin Blaser, the author of a report in the prestigious journal Nature writes:

Antibiotics kill the bacteria we do want, as well as those we don't. These long-term changes to the beneficial bacteria within people's bodies may even increase our susceptibility to infections and disease.

Overuse of antibiotics could be fuelling the dramatic increase in conditions such as obesity, type 1 diabetes, inflammatory bowel disease, allergies and asthma, which have more than doubled in many populations.

Aside from the development of superbugs, we're now seeing clear documentation that the overall long term effects of antibiotics are devastatingly harmful to our health. Speaking to ABC News, Blaser said:

Antibiotics are miraculous. They've changed health and medicine over the last 70 years. But when doctors prescribe antibiotics, it is based on the belief that there are no long-term effects. We've seen evidence that suggests antibiotics may permanently change the beneficial bacteria that we're carrying. [Emphasis my own.]

Notice that term, permanent. Without considering the potential risks in the casual use of antibiotics, it now looks like conventional medicine is creating several pandemics of some of the worst chronic diseases known.

Mass Use of Antibiotics
By the time a child reaches age 18 in the industrialized world, the chances are he or she has been given 10-20 courses of antibiotics. That misuse continues into adulthood, and they're casually prescribed to pregnant women.

That's where the situation grows ever worse. Part of a normal childbirth is a baby's passage through the birth canalwhere it's exposed to its first dose of beneficial bacteria. (This should give pause to anyone considering a caesarian birth that isn't absolutely necessary.)

When a mother's microbiota is deficient, her child is born to a deficiency. The evidence now appears to show that, once a probiotic deficiency exists, it is never recoveredand it's passed down the generations. Therefore, each generation is likely to suffer from poorer health than the parents enjoyed.

Costs of Antibiotic-Induced Chronic Conditions
Healthcare costs rise and rise in treating this chronic ill health. Consider the pandemic status of diabetes and asthma in children today. Those diseases were extremely rare 50 years ago, and now they're literally routine. Yet, the focus continues to be on treatmentwhich increasingly lines the pockets of Big Pharma and doctors.

The search for cause has practically been ignored, even in the face of rising rates of chronic illness. Instead, treatment is the touchstone. Ever more toxic methods of suppressing symptoms, while hiding adverse effects, are researched and pushed on conventional medicine's victims.

Two of the most critical functions in health are drastically compromised in enormous numbers of today's children. The ability to metabolize food and the ability to breathe are being stolen from this generation. Yet the treatment they're receiving for this poor health does nothing to make them well. It only masks the symptoms and makes their children even sicker!

On top of those losses, children suffer from allergies, their bodies' inability to distinguish between disease-inducing agents and harmless substances. They suffer from autoimmune disorders, their bodies' inability to distinguish between foreign substances and parts of their own bodies.

Has there ever been a generation of children whose inherent health has been so devastated by the very medical system that is supposedly responsible for their health?

Iatrogenic Disease
Iatrogenic disorders are health problems caused by medical errors. They are now officially the third-leading cause of death in the United States. But those numbers do not include early deaths from diabetes, asthma, allergies, chronic bowel disorders, or cancerall of which have been documented as results of antibiotic usenor are the miseries suffered by the people burdened with them reckoned in the iatrogenic toll.

If we were to add all those early deaths to the iatrogenesis numbers, as should be done, it would be obvious that conventional medicine is the greatest killer and thief of health the world has ever known. And apparently, one of the most significant causes of iatrogenic illness is antibiotics, that most common of treatments handed out like candy.

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sparkle7
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PS - I'm not "against" drugs but this is important to consider.
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blinkie
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Well, they better start working on a way to fix it. Giving up abx isn't an option for many. I know both myself and my son wouldn't be here today it if weren't for the excessive abx we have taken.
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lou
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Interesting that they are willing to blame antibiotics but not vaccines.
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James1979
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I hope they stop giving abx for acne. Those teenagers can usually use a little humbling, anyway. A few pimples on their faces would be good for them.
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Lymetoo
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And why no mention of taking probiotics while on antibiotics? And ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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randibear
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my dermatologist recommended good ole dial soap. the old fashioned gold kind for my acne when i was young. worked like a charm.

and if you can't take abx for lyme then what are we supposed to do? and you're absolutely right. no mention of probiotics.

people do overmedicate. but others need chemo and abx.

there is no middle ground here.

--------------------
do not look back when the only course is forward

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sparkle7
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My personal opinion is that you can't replace what is lost from taking abx with probiotics. It's a hard decision. I know people who didn't get better from taking extensive abx - so, it is something to think about.
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lou
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And some people would be dead without antibiotics, so you gotta choose your poison. Dead is pretty final, and there are no worries about gut flora afterwards.
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Lymetoo
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Very true, lou.

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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TerryK
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Interesting but I'm with tutu - no mention of probiotics?? Seems like a no brainer. I believe their premise is discredited when probiotics are added to the picture.

I've noticed over the past few years some physicians and pharmacists are finally now advising patients to add probiotics when taking abx. Not only to take while on abx but for a time after.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081217190443.htm
ScienceDaily (Dec. 24, 2008) Up to one in five people on antibiotics stop taking their full course of antibiotic therapy due to diarrhea.

Physicians could help patients avoid this problem by prescribing probiotics, according to a study by researchers at Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University published in American Family Physician

read the rest at the link above....

sparkle wrote:
My personal opinion is that you can't replace what is lost from taking abx with probiotics.

You must continue to take them for a time after you are done with abx. It is important to take good quality enteric coated and different strains. Perhaps the one that was talked about here a few years ago would work best because it uses human strains?

Terry
I'm not a doctor

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sutherngrl
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It amazes me how doctors never mention probiotics to people. I know a trillion people that have never heard of probiotics.
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sparkle7
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I guess there's a few issues here. If we diminish gut flora & have children - the generations will suffer (ie: epigenetics). Not all people are cured with abx. If one stops supplementing with probiotics - they are not replenished by the body naturally.

It just makes me reflect on how complex the body is & what it means to take long courses of abx treatment. I think it's worth considering.

I did alot of research on probiotics in the past. I don't think we can replace them easily once they are gone. Human strain probiotics is a whole other can of worms - so to speak. They are being developed to use in baby formula. It's kind of interesting & creepy at the same to to consider the long term implications of all of this.

I don't have time now to site a bunch of research. I just think it's important to think about this in regards to Lyme treatment. I don't think the author of the article was considering the use of abx treatment for Lyme.

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Mo
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of course it must be carefully considered and treated seriously, i totally agree with that..

i don't believe it's true that good flora cannot be reestablished -

but is true that it cannot be done easily.

again, i do think abx are very disruptive to our system in many ways..

but still, this article uses phrases such as "evidence appears" and "suggests", with no reference to facts that i can find..
i think statements such as abx causes "permanent" changes in gut flora are
pretty strong considering there is no solid backing to that statement priovided here.

mo

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onbam
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Wow, great article, thanks!
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Brussels
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There are MANY options to antibiotics that don't do bad to your GI flora. People don't know or don't want to know.

Homeopathy, for instance, has been practically erradicated from the USA and people think that nosodes are like water, despite many scientific publications proving its efficiency.

Herbs have enormous killing properties and before antibioticcs, people only used herbs for thousands of years, and humankind is here to prove they worked!

Whatever you may think, that antibiotics is the only solution is your choice. I do believe antibiotics saved lives and still save. But also because people don't know about alternatives and go to antibiotics first.

And antibiotics now are not saving all, as they create resistance and in that sense, it is killing people that could have survived otherwise with milder treatments.

It is killing people and you can just see what is happening in hospitals with antibiotic resistant strains. And what happened to the E.coli episode here in Europe.

The era of antibiotics is coming to an end, you got to wake up! It was a miracle drug when it first appeared. It is not a miracle anymore. Everyone with chronic lyme knows about that!

I also take abx when I find no other alternatives, but it is MY LAST choice.

Just imagine that the best immune protection you have from outside invaders locate exactly in your GI tract. With THOUSANDS of different beneficial bacterial and yeast strains. 85% of your immunity is in your gut!!

Do your REALLY think you will replace that rich flora with 2 strain probiotics you take from capsules that are mostly killed by your stomach acids?

And then take abx again and kill the few good bacteria that arrived in your GI gut?

You got to be kidding!

If you have fought candida like I did, I swear that candida is MUCH more stubborn than Borrelia.

It is not as bad (in terms of damage) but it is terribly stubborn. If we could rebuild the flora fast with SIMPLE PROBIOTICS, we would have known it.

The market is invaded by hundreds of probiotics and there is a reason for that. They work only minimally, no matter what price you are giving for these probiotics.

I got healed from lyme with 98% alternative treatment, only 2% of antibiotics. No way anyone can tell me only abx work. It's NOT true. Not in my case, not in my daughter's case.

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jackie51
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No mention of probiotics. What about the crappy food supply?

I swear the health care industry is going to start being as annoying to me as politics, if it already isn't!

This is so untrue "they're casually prescribed to pregnant women".

It looks to me like it's a swing to the pendulum. For folks who need ABX and struggle to get them, will now feel like the egg producers when the heart disease cr*p started hitting the fan.

No ABX for acne? They prescribe doxy, don't they? Ever wonder why? Teen years? Filarial worms maybe?

The health care industry will never connect the dots if they don't see the dots.

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TerryK
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Those using herbs should not assume that none of the antibacterial herbs negatively alter gut flora. I'm fairly certain that samento and colloidal silver caused negative changes in my gut flora and I've no doubt there are numerous others that cause gut flora issues.

I am a big proponent of herbs and alternative treatments and have been for decades but they did not do the job for me. I personally needed abx AND herbs in order to knock the bacterial load down. I believe I was on the fast track to death by the time I started treatment through my LLMD. It took 3 years of abx AND herbs before I turned the corner.

Even Buhner and other herbalists and ND's who admittedly dislike abx reluctantly admit that Chronic Lyme Disease may require the use of prescription antibiotics.

It would be ideal if none of us needed to rebalance our gut flora but even without abx there are other things that damage gut flora. Infections, diarrhea, sugar, herbal abx etc...

I seriously considered nosodes but decided it was not worth the risk of possibly adding other strains of borrelia to my body. I talked to a manufacturer who told me that they do nothing beyond what they do for other bacteria to ensure that borrelia is dead when they make their nosodes. This is a bacteria that can survive blood banking conditions and is very resistant to being killed, especially the cystic form.

Using a probiotic that has enteric coating protects the good bacteria from acid until it gets where it needs to go. Adding fructooliosaccharides, also called FOS for short will feed the good bacteria and allow them to thrive and grow while reducing the number of bad bacteria.

Kefir is helpful in re-colonizeing the body with beneficial bacteria. Lactoferrin helps rebalance gut flora and fermented foods and drinks are helpful as well. There are many other products that can be switched in and out in order to help rebalance gut flora.

Terry
I'm not a doctor

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gambler
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Oh, man, why didn't I know that Dial cured acne?

That would have saved me a lot of grief, and Erythromycin, Retin-A, Cleocin-T, Benzoyl Peroxide, Salicylic Acid and Accutane. Although, I guess I deserved it.

There are risks in everything we do, obviously our guts will never have the same composition from years of antibiotics. We swallow probiotics eat produce with a little dirt on it and hope for the best.

Or you can always have a fecal transplant...

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manybites
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I had NONE flora ( good bacteria ) before I started antibiotics.I was treating myself for the parasites with herbs and HULDA`s 3 steps protocoll.

They saved my life while I was loaded in parasites and LYME and TBD but was clueless on what I had in me except I was seeing the parasites myself while the GP specialits denied I had any parasites and endoscopy and colonoscopy did not helped either.

So for me and my exsperince the GUT FLORA did not existed before starting antibiotics.HErbs kill flora too.I was muscle test with Fingers test and screening from another machine ( I can not recall right now ) by the doctor /Dentist that was cleaning my teeth infected and cleaned my cavitation.

I started with parasites , mercury , cavitations, and hebral mixes from another ND that used muscle testing too .She identified Lyme and babesia ( both the dentist as well ) while GP , my PCP , therapist and all the rest of doctors ( including scanners, MRI tons of test ) did not help for anything .All They gave me was saline bags in ER or antidipresants.

So yes based on my exsperiences you can kill the flora with HERBS.

I have had no FLORA for 5 years inspite of probiotics I got .

That I beilive is the reason why I relapsed from the car accident, surgery ( implants), and when I was 6 months off any antibiotics and only in probiotics ( to controll Clostridium deficile).In the mean time I know that I had babesia but was undertreated .THIS ONE ALMOST KILLED me in 1 month that I stayed in the hospital ( they stoped me from taking artemisin ) but I still swollowed Sach...Bouliardy ( spelling )and all they found was clostridium deficile.

I regret I even stayed in hospital as in a month BABESIA exsploded with bartonella and I ended up with Blood transfusion .

By the way I had treated borrelia with BIONIC prior to that.6 months later I saw spirochete and filiary warm ( strains) in my eye .I tested with no Flora when I went to EUROPE last year .So NO flora means relapse to me and a few bugs left mean relapse .Unless I eradicate them , I know they will come back and I am cronic depending on herbs and antibiotics!

Do go for eradication of BAbs and eradication of Bart if you can not just lower the symptoms.

By the way if they are in the liver , with flora or no flora they still can spread in the organs ( read HUldas " the Cure of all cancers " .

Liver flushes and biofilm should be counted .

I am disable for life now.

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Brussels
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Colloidal silver is far from being a herb.

I was on Cats claw for MORE than 2 years, never noticed any bad change in GI flora. I just improved with lyme and overal health condition.

Infections (like borrelia) do damage the GI flora.

ABX damage it too, even more. It is more a very wide accepted fact. Even normal ducks talk about that.

Besides the fact of creating resistance, it is a bad thing for future generations.

Having said that, I also took ABX when I couldn't find any other solution.

But it was my last resort, as I suffered from candida much before I took ABX. I knew how stubborn candida was as I had more than a decade of war with it. I just didn't want to make things worse.

Homeopathic nosodes taken by infrared are not ingested. You just place the vials on your skin.

They don't affect the GI flora AT ALL. Only they help your body eliminate borrelia. That is why nosodes of borrelia are taken off the whole European market!!!!

Once infection load falls, your gut flora starts to rebuild.

Herbs, there are too many to count. I know coptis I would never take. Too strong. Most herbs only affect you positively.

The herbal talk is what ducks keep telling us. Herbs are dangerous, drugs aren't.

Even though Buhner is not an adept of antibiotics, he does accept its use for lyme, but only SHORT TERM. You can re-read the book, he never says long term. He suggested about a month or two of abx before starting on a herbal protocol

One month or two, that's it. He's NOT for long term abx. Just send him an email, he'll tell you.

If you can't find any chemical molecule in homeopathic higher dilutions in terms of Avogadro numbers, I wonder how they are going to find any borrelia anymore. It's is physically impossible.

this is what make people criticize homeopathy. Because in the end, most homeopathic products are merely 100% water.

You can be afraid of nosodes, but many too many people have INGESTED bart nosodes with a lot of success.

Just do a search here on Deseret Biological bart nosodes.

I AM afraid of certain herbs. Like coptis. I know some are dangerous. That some I react too strongly. That some cause adverse effects.

On the OTHER hand, I am afraid of ALL antibiotics, ALL drugs. All of them can be dangerous, even aspirin, and most of them deadly, with MULTIPLE side effects. All of them, no exception.

reminder that drugs and the medical system is the 3rd largest cause of death in the USA.

It is NOT herbal teas that kill most.

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TerryK
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Many herbs including cats claw and olive leaf are loaded with tannins and tannins are known to affect beneficial gut flora. How much? I would assume it depends on the concentration of tannins. There are likely very few studies that look at this issue.

Correct, colloidal silver is not an herb but it is often touted as a safe alternative to abx.

Glad you had a good response to cats claw. I took Samento for over 6 months and I got a lot sicker on it. It caused a lot of gut problems for me and I definitely needed probiotics while I was taking it.

Brussels wrote:
Homeopathic nosodes taken by infrared are not ingested. You just place the vials on your skin.

I was talking about borrelia nosodes taken internally which is the way many ppl take them. I would not worry about most other bacterial nosodes like I would borrelia.

Brussels wrote:
If you can't find any chemical molecule in homeopathic higher dilutions in terms of Avogadro numbers, I wonder how they are going to find any borrelia anymore. It's is physically impossible.

Avogadro's number (6.023 X 1023), corresponds to homeopathic potencies of 12C or 24X. The Deseret product expects one to ingest 6X, 8X and 10X all of which would be of concern as far as I'm concerned. Of course that doesn't apply if you have infrared access and know how and choose to administer via infrared rather than per manufacturers directions.

Brussels wrote:
The herbal talk is what ducks keep telling us. Herbs are dangerous, drugs aren't.

I don't buy their rhetoric. We found several physicians were very much against the use of herbs for cancer but we combined both allopathic and herbal/alternative treatments and were happy with the result.

I refused to use abx for most of my life whereas my sister took them for acne. She is the only one of my immediate family (all of us are sick) who is not disabled or dead. OTOH, I took many herbs for decades including tons of antibacterial herbs and I was very ill by the time I started treatment. My other sister who took neither abx or herbs is dead.

Terry,
I'm not a doctor

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Brussels
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Terry, we are on the same team!

Samento was rarely good to me either. I mostly took whole herb, cats claw. Herxes were strong, and if I didn't take cleansers, I wouldn't have improved. It never affected my GI gut negatively. Different people, different reactions.

If you go to normal doctors that treat with homeopathy, they will not usually use borrelia nosodes on the lower potencies. My homeopath gave me immediately the Borrelia 200K back in 2005 which is similar to 200C, when I first went to him after my first tick bite. That is what is done here in Europe.

It didn't cure my lyme disease! 200K is very very high dilution, but very potent.

The lower dilutions from Deseret started only after dr. W's protocol came in practice. Not long ago. I have their catalogue, without any borrelia low dilutions. It was a person I know who recommended them to sell these, as many were trying dr. W's protocol back in 2008-9.

As you know, dr. W doesn't give these nosodes ingested, only photooned on the skin, without contact. That is what I used, and with that my borrelia went dormant for more than 2 years now.

Having said that, I did take loads of nosodes on 6X dilutions, but for other infections. Sanum uses mostly 5D, 6D nosodes for everything.

It is a very well known company in Germany and these nosodes are so good that they are being taken off the market, because with them, we don't need most killing drugs.

For about everything, from Strep, Staph, E. coli, salmonella, tuberculosis, candida, fungal infections, viral infections, anything that reacts to penycilins, etc.

They are so good that most of their products will become impossible to be found, without prescription. Many are out of the market, due to literal persecution of alternative treatments. Like herbs are now considered illegal until proven contrary since May 2011.

Almost all naturopaths and alternative doctors use Sanum in Switzerland and Germany. Virtually every person who is interested in alternative treatments knows Sanum.

My lyme doctor treats all patients also with Sanum. Dr. K is a big proponent of Sanum nosodes, they are in ALL his courses. Yep, they are mostly 5 to 6X nosodes!! Ingested, rubbed, inhaled.

Whatever fears you guys may have has a lot to do with lack of experience with the homeopathy. Here, there is a continuous history of homeopathic practice for more than 100 years.

The fact that these products are being taken off the market comes in the same trend that herbs are being taken off, and supplements.

I never heard of such lower ingested dilutions for borrelia, not ingested at least.

Bart is a hard pathogen to erradicate. It is also immunosupressor, stubborn. I don't get your fear to only borrelia being the dangerous problem. Many people have awful time with fighting bart.

Sorry for your sis. There was an Australian man who was afraid of eating fish, because of heavy metal contamination. The guy died of cancer very young.

He was not necessarily wrong, but he could have been right! He could have been someone that detoxifies badly, who accumulated toxins, who was weaker than most, therefore he avoided what he thought was harmful for him. He was very health concerned. His early death proves to me he was right in his concerns!

I always tried to eat correctly, because I'm weaker than most. Eating like most would have already killed me (as I can't stomach most processed things).

I wished I could live like others eating out every day when I was in my 20s, and not losing time cooking by myself, chosing ingredients etc. I just couldn't. It was cooking or death (I went down to 38kg then, and no food stayed inside...).

There are people that are like canaries in the mine. I sometimes feel like one. My daughter is also one. While our neighbors are getting bitten by ticks in the same rate as us, they don't fall sick, despite their bad eating habits, their 'drug' consumption, etc.

Do I conclude that drugs don't cause problems, despite the statistics? That bad eating habits can be good for health? That could be one conclusion.

But whenever I travel and am unable to cook for one week, I get innumerous health problems. I can't live well without cooking, choosing my food, sleeping in EMR protected places... even without lyme. Even before lyme.

I'm amazed to see how people with lyme still consume sodas, eat fast foods even once in a while. I could never touch such stuff during the years I was sick. I just felt like being poisoned.

While there are differences in sensitivities from person to person, dr. K. believes that the MAIN reason some people fall sick after a bite while others don't, has to do with the toxic burden of a person. The more toxic a person is, the less their immune system functions.

It goes in sychrony with this Australian person who died of cancer at early age, in my view.

That is one reason I don't think adding drugs is a good choice, because it will add to your toxic burden. The toxic burden theory is just a theory.

But dr. K. built his WHOLE practice of medicine around toxicity. Either mental toxicity, environmental toxicity, EMR toxicity, pathogen toxicity, dead tooth toxicity, etc. Today many LLMDs follow his ideas on heavy metal toxicity.

Back in 2005, Burrascano was NOT talking about it, I remember it clearly. NOne of the LLMDs were. Now it is current knowledge to many LLMDs. Dr. K has been talking about that since the 80s.

Some people are cleaner than others and can stand toxicity of all these drugs, I suppose. But if dr. K. is right, we all chornic lyme sufferers or even acute lyme sufferers have a base of toxicity as cause for our immunological disfunctions.

Buhner is certainly not a promoter of ABX long term, not even middle term.

Not at all. I have many of his books, and with them, I became aware of how much we wee and poop abx in the environment and that virtually, all our lakes and seas are contaminated with drugs, and so are the flora and fauna. And the amount is not small to be dismissed. It is big and they are still active, so we are creating super bugs in the environment, just by peeing abx.

He is very much against long term use of abx and drugs that leak to the environment. That is another reason why abx is my last resort. A minimum respect I have for future generations. They don't deserve the world we are making for them.

My opinion.

[ 09-18-2011, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Brussels ]

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blinkie
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butyrate also helps replenish the gut by returning the coating lining of the intestines.
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TerryK
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blinkie - Good point. Butyrate is produced when intestinal fiber is metabolized by healthy bacteria so low bacteria may indicate low butyrate.

Brussels - I was seeing a homeopathic doctor when I found out I had lyme. He refused to treat me. He was being investigated by the Federal government because someone complained that he was prescribing homeopathics. [Frown]

Unbelievable that supplements are illegal in your Country. It's outrageous. The FDA is now trying to regulate all ingredients that were introduced after 1994. ugh! They can't take everything away but they would like to!

Brussels wrote:
The lower dilutions from Deseret started only after dr. W's protocol came in practice. Not long ago. I have their catalogue, without any borrelia low dilutions. It was a person I know who recommended them to sell these, as many were trying dr. W's protocol back in 2008-9.

Someone in this thread from 2006 mentioned that 3x was already being sold by that company.
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/46309#000007

That thread also goes into detail about my concerns regarding lower strength nosodes and information that I got from the manufacturer. According to what I was told, borrelia is deactivated through electro sterilization according to the equipment manufacturer specifications, the same as all other bacteria. I'm not convinced that is adequate to ensure that no cysts survive. There is no testing to ensure they are non viable. When borrelia is threatened it goes into cystic form. Cysts are very hard to kill. As I said, I'm not too concerned about other bacteria but borrelia is a different story. Also not concerned about higher strengths.

I'm going on IV abx and then I plan to be done with abx. I was convinced to continue after my pain levels went down by 70% on 6 months of IM ceftriaxone. Nothing else has ever even touched my pain let alone brought it down that much.

One more amalgam and I'll hit chelation very gently. I'm convinced we cannot get rid of lyme because of poor body terrain.

Back to the probiotic issue and the next generation. I remember when my nephew was a baby he had terrible colic and cried and drew his legs up like he was in terrible pain. I muscle tested that baby probiotics would take care of the colic so I bought him some liquid probiotics that we put in his bottle. It wasn't long and colic was gone and never returned. That was 20 years ago.


Terry

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kimmie
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The only way to replenish the 400-500 species of bacteria that reside in the colon once they have been killed off is through a fecal transplant or bacteriotherapy.

Simply taking an oral probiotic that contains 1-6 different strains of beneifical bacteria may be antagonistic to harmful bacteria and allow whatever good flora is left to regrow. However, if a sufficient number of bacterioides, good clostridia or other necessary bacteria are eliminated, they need to be reintroduced and the most direct and successful means to do this is which a fecal transplant perfomed under the supervision of knowledgable doctor.

Even that is no quick fix for the damage long term ABX can do to the good gut flora. It can take a minimum of 6-12 months after the procedure for the transplanted bacteria to become well established.

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TerryK
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kimmie, I woudn't be surprised if that were true. I would venture to guess there are very few ppl in the U.S. who have in-tact gut flora. Drinking chlorine in water alters gut flora and I think most ppl have had chlorinated water. I doubt there are very many ppl twho have not had abx at some time or other. It's far from ideal but that is the reality.

Have you had bacteriotherapy? If so, did you have good results?

Terry

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Mo
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excellent article linked below,.
looks like kefir can do it..as fecal transplants are not readily done in the US.

http://www.gutsense.org/gutsense/flora.html

mo

[ 09-19-2011, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]

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Mo
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kefir is a living thing, so closest to come to effective bacteriotherapy i'd say.

i know there was/is a middle eastern (?) culture who follow a camel around to eat it's dung,
i believe in history they had a wartime advantage against
gastrointestinal illness..

mo

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Lymetoo
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I thought silver KILLS yeast...?

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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canefan17
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Kefir baby!!
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Mo
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[lick]
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TerryK
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tutu, Colloidal silver supposedly kills bactreia, viruses and fungus so I assume that includes yeast.

I knew I should have included my links to kefir info when I first mentioned it. Didn't know there would be so much interest in it.

Dom's info and grain site
http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#kefir-microflora

starter kits
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=kefir

I like body ecology starter kit best. I mix it with yogurt because I don't care for the taste of any kefir that I've tried.

If you want to try kefir without buying the grains and making it yourself you can buy it ready made at your health food store.

Yahoo groups - kefir making
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kefir_making/

International grain database.
http://www.torontoadvisors.com/Kefir/kefir-list.php

Different grains taste different and I believe have different strains of bacteria as well.

Terry

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sparkle7
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I think the relationship of disease to the "microbiome" is more complex than originally realized. There's alot of research going on in this area these days.

FYI -

Bacterial Ecosystems Divide People Into 3 Groups, Scientists Say

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/science/21gut.html

also

Human Microbiome Project

http://www.hmpdacc.org/

----

It's not just about acidopholus any more...

It's very upsetting about limiting access to herbs & supplements. It seems very bizarre to me to wipe out any gains since 1994 in new, innovative products. I'm not interested in an arguement of drugs vs. herbs. I'm really interested in new discoveries that may help our health. I think the research into the Human Microbiome Project is signifigant.

Things are really moving quickly. Decisions are being made that effect our health & the health of generations to come. It's hard to imagine that these decisions are all coincidental between drugs, new science in healthcare/longevity, GMOs, toxins in the environment & limiting people's access to herbs & supplements...

It's really alot to consider.

There are many foods that have "probiotics" - fermented foods, saurkraut, kombucha, tempeh... I think this area is just starting to be discovered. I'm sure new innovations are coming - if we will be given access to them...

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sparkle7
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PS - Yes, I do think herbs or supplements can change the balance of internal pro & negative bacteria. They may not be as extreme as abx but they can change the balance.

---

from:

NY Times

Bacterial Ecosystems Divide People Into 3 Groups, Scientists Say
By CARL ZIMMER
Published: April 20, 2011


Dr. Bork and his colleagues have found that each of the types makes a unique balance of these enzymes. Enterotype 1 produces more enzymes for making vitamin B7 (also known as biotin), for example, and Enterotype 2 more enzymes for vitamin B1 (thiamine).

The discovery of the blood types A, B, AB and O had a major effect on how doctors practice medicine. They could limit the chances that a patients body would reject a blood transfusion by making sure the donated blood was of a matching type. The discovery of enterotypes could someday lead to medical applications of its own, but they would be far down the road.

Some things are pretty obvious already, Dr. Bork said. Doctors might be able to tailor diets or drug prescriptions to suit peoples enterotypes, for example.

Or, he speculated, doctors might be able to use enterotypes to find alternatives to antibiotics, which are becoming increasingly ineffective. Instead of trying to wipe out disease-causing bacteria that have disrupted the ecological balance of the gut, they could try to provide reinforcements for the good bacteria. Youd try to restore the type you had before, he said.

---

Check out some of these topics...

http://www.hmpdacc.org/ethical/ethical.php

home > ethical implications

Ethical, Legal, and Social Implications

Many ethical issues arise from the conduct of human microbiome research. These include the equitable selection of research participants, informed consent and respect for autonomy, data sharing and protection of privacy, invasiveness of sampling and minimization of research risks, and whether and how research results and incidental findings should be returned to participants.

In addition to these issues associated with the conduct of the research itself, human microbiome research has many broader societal implications. These range from how the research findings will eventually be applied in both clinical and non-clinical contexts and how new products likely to arise from the research (for example, probiotics) will be regulated, to how this new knowledge will be understood by the public and how it will potentially alter people's conceptions of health and disease or even of what it means to be "human."

In recognition of the importance of these issues, a portion of the HMP budget is being allocated to the support of studies designed to address the ethical, legal, and social implications of human microbiome research.

--

This goes way beyond "the second brain" reasoning & research...

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sparkle7
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More - https://commonfund.nih.gov/hmp/overview.aspx
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sparkle7
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More -

Repeated antibiotic use alters gut's composition of beneficial microbes, study shows

http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2010/september/relman.html

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manybites
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When you have an active infection is not way you can stop the treatment for 6-12 months to rebuild the gut , not every one finds that they have lyme right away .
MAny come here after decades and near death exsperince before they find they had lyme and tbd all along.

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sparkle7
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Some people with long term illness still end up ill after taking long courses of abx... only, they now have diminished gut or other positive bacteria.

Best to give the treatment options some thought. You have to weigh the risks with the improvements. Many people don't understand the importance of the "good" bacteria.

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Brussels
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I agree with Sparkle. There are options to antibiotics, and I always give the options first chance, and antibiotics last chance.

Short term abx, and only rarely (once a year or less), I guess it's not a big deal for the GI tract.

But it takes years to rebuild a healthy flora once it is destroyed and possibly just a couple of weeks to destroy a healthy balance there with abx!!

The gut and skin are the MAIN contact of your body with the exterior world. Foods, water, bacteria, parasites come down directly to your gut.

The gut has to filter, choose, kill most things so that they don't penetrate your body and cause harm (the liver helps too).

Damaging the gut is like damaging your main ally to fight infections and be healthy. You do need nutrients to function (they are absorbed and sorted by the gut).

If the gut is not healthy, how to digest foods well?

People with healthy guts and healthy mouth (teeth, jaws) are usually healthy people.

People with sick guts and sick mouth will live a life full of problems, on and off...

That is what I see!

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sparkle7
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I'm not sure if people with tooth & gum problems have other health issues. I know someone with a big gum problem & she lost her teeth but she's still pretty healthy, otherwise.

I think it's an individual thing. It just surprises me about all the heavy hitters researching this area of "microbiome"... I don't think we know enough about it to casually take large amounts of abx (or even some herbs) without giving it some thought.

You got the Ventner Institute, Los Alamos, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, + other research universities like Harvard & Stanford, etc. all researching this area...

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sparkle7
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Re: mo's statement - i think statements such as abx causes "permanent" changes in gut flora are pretty strong considering there is no solid backing to that statement priovided here.

----

There are studies & evidence of this...

http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2010/september/relman.html

Repeated antibiotic use alters gut's composition of beneficial microbes, study shows

excerpt-

Repeated use of an antibiotic that is considered generally benign, because users seldom incur obvious side effects, induces cumulative and persistent changes in the composition of the beneficial microbial species inhabiting the human gut, researchers at the Stanford University School of Medicine have found.

By a conservative estimate, something like 1,000 different varieties of microbes coexist harmoniously within a typical healthy persons gut, said David Relman, MD, professor of medicine and of microbiology and immunology at the medical school and chief of the infectious diseases division at the Veterans Affairs Palo Alto Health Care System. Relman is the senior author of a paper, published online Sept. 13 in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The study examined the effects of ciprofloxacin (trade name Cipro), an antibiotic that is widely prescribed for intestinal, urinary and a variety of systemic infections. In an earlier, short-term study, Relmans group had concluded that peoples intestinal microbial communities seem to bounce back reasonably well within weeks after a five-day regimen of ciprofloxacin. This new study involved two courses of antibiotic administration, six months apart, and it revealed more-subtle, long-term effects of ciprofloxacin use such as the replacement of multiple resident bacterial species by other, closely related varieties and the occasional complete eradication of a species.

---

Also -

CAUTION: DO NOT DEBUG

ITS AN ECOSYSTEM IN THERE ONE YOU CANT LIVE WITHOUT

http://stanmed.stanford.edu/2009summer/article8.html

excerpts -

Relmans experiments and ideas were key to establishing the Human Microbiome Project, a $115 million, five-year government-funded effort, says Gordon. The National Institutes of Health launched this project in 2007 to explore the microbial communities occupying different body habitats (specifically, the digestive tract, mouth, skin, nose and female urogenital tract). Relman was one of 11 initial grant recipients; his project is to find a more efficient way to analyze DNA from single bacterial cells.

Meanwhile, the supersensitive counting approach makes it possible to fill in more knowledge gaps. The technique allows researchers to follow virtually the entire microbial ecosystem of a particular organ in detail to see how it changes over time. Now there is a way to track responses to perturbations by drugs, diet, disease and changes in lifestyle.

In a study reported in 2008, the Relman team examined the effects of a common antibiotic, ciprofloxacin, which had been assumed by the medical community to go easy on intestinal microbes because users typically notice no gastrointestinal symptoms. But in fact, the drug caused significant changes in the relative abundance of variants in each study subjects lower gut albeit largely with no overt symptoms. Some rarer variants seem to have disappeared altogether.

The significance of these changes is not yet known. But now at least there is a way to track responses that were once invisible. Relmans group is following up on the ciprofloxacin story with new experiments, and has initiated another study with the commonly prescribed antibiotic tetracycline.

-

THE PROBIOTIC PROMISE

If changes in the composition of our internal microbial ecosystems can perhaps be for the worse, might these communities also be manipulated for the better? Thats the idea behind adding intact microbes to our diets the probiotic approach epitomized by live cultures in yogurt. Some studies suggest that consuming certain microbes can affect the course or likelihood of disease, says Justin Sonnenburg, PhD, assistant professor of microbiology and immunology.

But, he cautions, a lot of this is driven by pseudoscience, by companies selling products. Many non-resident microbes can exact biological effects in the intestine, and some of those effects are for the better, he says. But we still need to learn more about exactly what various bacterial species in our gut do for us to be fully confident in our ability to get the right bug for the job.

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sparkle7
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I found this study, too -

Potential Association Between the Oral Tetracycline Class of Antimicrobials Used to Treat Acne and Inflammatory Bowel Disease

http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ajg2010303a.html

David J Margolis , Matthew Fanelli , Ole Hoffstad & James D Lewis

CONCLUSIONS: Tetracycline class antibiotics, and particularly doxycycline use may be associated with the development of IBD, particularly CD. Potential confounding by previous doxycycline exposure should be considered when assessing whether treatment with other acne medications increases the risk of IBD.

Am J Gastroenterol advance online publication, 10 August 2010; doi:10.1038/ajg.2010.303

* Crohn's disease (CD)
inflammatory bowel disease (IBD)

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nomoremuscles
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quote:
Originally posted by sparkle7:
Some people with long term illness still end up ill after taking long courses of abx... only, they now have diminished gut or other positive bacteria.

This happened to me. Many of my early symptoms were alleviated by prolonged abx therapy, but the tradeoff was that I ended up with a wrecked gut, chronic fatigue, and an MS-like illness.

I am not sure it was worth it. In acft, I doubt it was. I was very sick to start, sure; my onset was acute and horrible -- neurological, heart, bladder, joints, etc. But ...but ... I was still able to work, was semi-functional, and still had a life.

With abx therapy, over time, I became completely disabled. Currently my life is crap, and has been for many years. Slowly, I am improving now, using all alternative approaches. I would never use abx again if I could help it. As it is, they make me much sicker and more toxic.

In fact, my last LLMD, a well known and well respected one, kept telling me that my mounting gut issues, weakness, and sensitivities were a herx. I kept telling LLMD that I was pretty sure they weren't -- that my gut was getting screwed up worse, and that this was causing the problems.

LLMD didn't believe. To this LLMD: Lyme is everything. Borrelia was the cause of everything.

Facts:
I went to this LLMD able to work, able to tolerate a small handful of foods, and able to take care of myself. When I left, I was unable to work (or do anything but lay in bed), was able to tolerate less than half my original foods, and was unable to do basic necessary chores like shopping or cooking my food, and was so light sensitive I had to black out my whole house and live in the dark. I was too weak to walk to the bathroom. I was completely dependent.

Thankfully, I am coming back from that. I have come a long, long way from that, and am doing much better now. But I doubt my gut will ever be right again.

The idea that a person can fix a gut with probiotics is laughable. As stated by many posters above, there is no way a few strains of probiotics are going to do much of anything compared to the thousands of strains that were compromised, and the delicate balance that was upset. And there is little possibility that probiotics will colonize the gut. Maybe a fecal transplant is the answer.

But finding a healthy donor ain't exactly no easy thing.

For instance, imagine the Craigslist ad ...

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sparkle7
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I'm sorry you had to go through that, nomoremuscles... I'm glad you still have a sense of humor about it - Craigslist - LOL...

I think there is a time & place for abx. Mostly, for people who know they just got bit & for a short time. I'm sure abx have helped some but it hard to guage what percentage was helped vs. those who got worse with other side effects of the drugs.

I have heard about many who got worse & don't post here anymore... It sort of reminds me of using a nuclear bomb to treat vs. a targeted laser weapon. I hope some of this new science will reveal new ways to help people.

I just read an article about how they analyse the whole genome to find ways to treat the illness - people may be infected with different strains or variations so analysing the particulars can be helpful to create individualized treatments.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra1003071

I just hope they are using all this data to actually help people.

We do have to be cautious about the abx usage.

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