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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Oldest Lyme patient (besides moderators) Ice Man!

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Author Topic: Oldest Lyme patient (besides moderators) Ice Man!
Tincup
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WOW! Gotta read this! They found the Ice Man, frozen for thousands of years, had Lyme disease!

Quote- "Perhaps most surprising, researchers found the genetic footprint of bacteria known as Borrelia burgdorferi in his DNAmaking the Iceman the earliest known human infected by the bug that causes Lyme disease."

I guess now the CDC and IDSA will try to write it off by saying the Ice Man's blood test was a false positive? HA!

Or maybe they could publish that the Ice Man only had the "aches and pains of daily living", because Lyme is no big deal. Bet if they had insurance thousands of years ago he would have been denied treatment reimbursement too!

Ice Man article in National Geographic

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/11/iceman-autopsy/hall-text

Thanks to Miguel for sharing this article.

[ 10-20-2011, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Tincup ]

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James1979
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Tincup - That's absolutely amazing! Thanks a lot for posting this.

When they say they found the "genetic footprint" for the Bb. bacteria, does that mean that they use a PCR test?

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Tincup
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James, I don't know.

I haven't read the whole article, which I will do when able. Don't know if I can figure that out after I read it or not, but will try.

I am amazed. Lyme has been found in a termite's gut that was fossilized in piece of amber (millions of years old).

Bartonella has been found in porpoises, and in a 500 year old tooth. Babesia transfusions are killing patients. The government is spending millions to get a vaccine for RMSF for a handful of cases each year.

Now this?

Why does the CDC/IDSA street gang think Lyme, et al is "no big deal"?

Where does it end?

[ 10-18-2011, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Tincup ]

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Tincup
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What if?

What if many diseases over the years have been caused by Borrelia spirochetes and other tick borne diseases (organisms) and no one ever knew?

There are over 300 known strains of Lyme disease, not to mention all the mixed-matched strains, subspecies, etc. New TBD's are being discovered too, but it is taking too long to help millions.

What if some of today's diseases are actually caused by infections with these organisms?

And these old time diseases? Doctors couldn't have known the true cause in many of them.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ohcuyah2/oddsends/disease.html

What if?

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Tincup
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BTW- He was probably lactose intolerant. Interesting.

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Abxnomore
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Pretty amazing! [Eek!]

Not surprised that he was lactose intolerant since it said his genetics were "related to people living in southern Europe today than to those in North Africa or the Middle East, with close connections to geographically isolated modern populations in Sardinia, Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula."

Many peoples from those areas are lactose intolerant.

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James1979
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Wait a minute... I just noticed something. Notice how the title of the thread says: "Oldest Lyme patient..." Oldest Lyme patient??? But I thought Lymetoo was the oldest Lyme patient! [lol] [lol] [lol] [lol] [lol] Oh I crack myself up sometimes. [Big Grin]

[ 10-19-2011, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Lymetoo ]

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James1979
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I just went to LymeNet Europe to create a new account...
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nefferdun
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Actually I think I am the oldest living lyme patient!!!

That is an amazing story. 5,000 years!

So my thought is, do you think there may be cysts still in his body and if they were found and put into the right medium, could become living spriochetes again?

They got brain tissue out to research - It would be like the wheat seeds from the Egyptian pyramids sprouting after thousands of years. Not at all impossible.

That would sure put a dent into the CDC's theories.

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James1979
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Don't forget that 5,000 years is a long time for bacteria to evolve. Hypothetically, it might not have even been invasive or caused any symptoms back then.

It has been suggested that there are even some strains around today that don't cause any symptoms, or some strains that cause simply the EM rash and nothing else.

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JeniferM
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It's funny how they assumed he was murdered instead of thinking it was just a bad group hunting accident. It wouldn't take much to accidentally end up in the path of a spear being thrown at an animal and then go down hard.

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Abxnomore
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James why in the world would you want to join lymenet Europe? Do you know the history of that site? Very long and convoluted.
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James1979
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quote:
Originally posted by Abxnomore:
James why in the world would you want to join lymenet Europe? Do you know the history of that site? Very long and convoluted.

I was just making a joke about how I'm about to get expelled by Lymetoo, so that's why I was talking about "moving" to Lymenet Europe.

In reality, I would never join that site. I think they have like 5 active members there. A guy like me needs some ACTION! [Big Grin]

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jlp38
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quote:
Originally posted by James1979:
Don't forget that 5,000 years is a long time for bacteria to evolve. Hypothetically, it might not have even been invasive or caused any symptoms back then.

Ya, and then take into account Plum Island and the thought that what we're dealing with has likely been genetically modified. Clearly, this is one old bug, but that doesn't necessarily mean anyone really got sick from it back then. We'll probably never know.
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Tincup
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I am sure glad my name isn't James today! You are in BIG trouble mister. BIG.

Could the arrow head have been an old wound that healed up? People do live with weird things inside them.

Like James, and that thing he calls a brain.

[lol]

Yes, I crack myself up too, but at least I won't be booted off here for saying that.

Unless James becomes a moderator too. HA!

[lol]

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Tincup
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"Clearly, this is one old bug, but that doesn't necessarily mean anyone really got sick from it back then."

And then again, it doesn't mean people weren't suffering and dying from it all over the world, at least until antibiotics hit the scene.

Food for thought.

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Tincup
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BTW-

James, I just reported your post to the moderators.

So laugh it up funny man, your days are numbered!

[lol]

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Tincup
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Our recently booted off member, James, said... "It has been suggested that there are even some strains around today that don't cause any symptoms, or some strains that cause simply the EM rash and nothing else."

That is suggested mostly by the same ones who wouldn't know Lyme if a tick bit them on the butt and whistled Dixie.

Deny, deny, deny. Lyme is no big deal.

[Big Grin]

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Tincup
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A fellow working at the National Geographic once told me...

If you piled all the National Geographic magazines on the Florida peninsula, it would sink.

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MichaelTampa
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Well, I want to point out there can be a difference between being infected and having lyme disease (in terms of symptoms)--today and back then.
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Runner17
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Wow. Reading this makes me worried that my health problems aren't related to Lyme disease. What percentage of the normal population would test positive for Lyme? Maybe Lyme is like the EBV and everyone after a certain age will test positive or show some reactive bands on a western blot.
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jlp38
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quote:
Originally posted by Tincup:

And then again, it doesn't mean people weren't suffering and dying from it all over the world, at least until antibiotics hit the scene.

Food for thought.

Very true. We'll probably never know one way or the other.
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sparkle7
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"Genetic footprint" doesn't exactly mean that this person had Lyme Disease as we know it today...

How is it that they can diagnose Lyme Disease in a 5,000 year old dead body & they can't definitively tell if one of us has it today...? Something doesn't sound correct to me about this. I've see other articles about Native American remains that they have supposedly found Lyme in, too. I don't buy it.

I don't really trust alot of what I read from the media these days. I agree with jlp38.

I'm old enough to remember prior to the outbreak in Lyme CT. I'm from the North East (US)... It wasn't always like this during my own lifetime. I remember a time when people didn't get this illness & when a tick bite was no big deal.

There is too much evidence that experimentation was going on with spirochetes as a weaponized vector. You have to do your own studies & think for yourself. Just my humble opinion...

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JeniferM
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Tincup said "If you piled all the National Geographic magazines on the Florida peninsula, it would sink."... definitely true now that it's almost entirely advertisements. I was looking through a recent copy and had a hard time locating the article mentioned on the front page because it had so many flippin ads in it. It's terrible!

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James1979
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quote:
Originally posted by Lymetoo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tincup:
BTW-

James, I just reported your post to the moderators.

So laugh it up funny man, your days are numbered!

[lol]

-
Yeah and he tried to butter me up with that "sweetest" thing!! [Roll Eyes]

[bow] maybe I should thank him though

OH GET OUT OF MY FACE!!! LOOOOOOOOOOOL! [Big Grin]

You guys TOTALLY edited my post! Why did you do that? It was fine the way it was before! [lol]

Whatever, man. "Sweetest"??! Everyone knows I totally don't talk like that. [shake] [Razz]
[puke]

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Robin123
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Wow - ice man and borrelia? Don't have time to read it yet, but wow -

James, if you go to LymenetEurope, you could have quite a time between there and here - badmouthing yourself over there, defending yourself over here, and vice versa - you could be very busy doing pro per representation. We might even join in.

I could recommend you as one of the greatest computer graphic morph artists of our time - who else could turn Willie Brown into Arnold Schwarzenegger into Gov Jerry Brown? (Gardasil thread for those of you who missed it)

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Dogsandcats
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James, don't try to hide behind that tough exterior.

You know you wrote it and now you don't have to go anywhere else.

As Robin said, you would be way to busy bashing yourself there and defending yourself here.

We all know the real James.....

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Robin123
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James - the possibilities boggle my mind - you could bash yourself here, copy it and send it over there, then you could defend yourself over there, and respond here, ad infinitum.

But don't forget to add graphics too - you're very talented. Maybe a pic of you on a redeye flight btn here and Europe.

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James1979
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You guys are so silly! [Smile] Thanks for the good laughs.
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17hens
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quote:
Originally posted by sparkle7:
How is it that they can diagnose Lyme Disease in a 5,000 year old dead body & they can't definitively tell if one of us has it today...?

Maybe when the spirochete freezes, it can jump out and poke you in the eye!

--------------------
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sixgoofykids
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quote:
Originally posted by James1979:
Wait a minute... I just noticed something. Notice how the title of the thread says: "Oldest Lyme patient..." Oldest Lyme patient??? But I thought Lymetoo was the oldest Lyme patient! [lol] [lol] [lol] [lol] [lol] Oh I crack myself up sometimes. [Big Grin]

No, Tutu is the SECOND oldest!! We all know that Tincup is the oldest!!!! That's why she started this thread!!

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Lymetoo
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That HAS to be TRUE!!! [Big Grin] [lol]

All I know is that I am NOT the oldest!! [Big Grin]

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Abxnomore
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James, I'm happy to know that you know the scoop on Lymenet Europe. Out of the so called five active members one person most probably has four monikers (I'm pretty sure, always was the case) and most of us know who the ring leader is working hand and hand with the four others who are the same person. [dizzy] [dizzy] [dizzy]
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Robin123
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And don't forget Just Don, a very ancient Lyme patient as well...

I can't believe no one suggested this theory for the Iceman - that he was on his way to his Lyme support group, but met inclement weather and froze.

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Tincup
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I said to myself... "Self, I know we are very tired, but let's go see a few friends tonight at LymeNet before we go to bed."

The FIRST thing I saw was this post... that said...

"No, Tutu is the SECOND oldest!! We all know that Tincup is the oldest!!!! That's why she started this thread!!"

Hmmmmmmmmm....

Ok, Ms. Goofy Mother of Six Normal Kids, that's not at all funny!

And for those who didn't defend me against that attack on my youthfulness....

I'll be back. Right now if I tried to throw a punch I'd fall out of this chair face first on the floor!

[Big Grin]

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Lymetoo
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Well, at 2:00 a.m. I wouldn't be surprised that you might fall on the floor, especially at your age! [lol] [kiss]

Maybe you should get one of those "Life Alert" things! "I've fallen and I can't get up!" [Razz]

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James1979
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I am SO getting out of this thread! The grandmas are being mean, and they're starting to get violent.

Pretty soon they're gonna start throwing dentures at each other. Every man for himself! [Eek!]

*splash* --- (That was the sound of me jumping ship). [Big Grin]

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Tincup
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Next time you all get to town you might want to pick up a couple of get well cards for the Lyme Net moderators.

Actually, make it three cards if dogs and cats decides to join in the attack on TC. Do you dare?

In the meantime, please someone get me a blindfold to put over my eyes. I really don't want to see what I am getting ready to do to them!

[lol]

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Dogsandcats
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I am the innocent one TC---I think we are all young at heart and life is a journey that we all take together.

I am sure Goofy and her precious children and TUTU with her sweet Texas twang meant no harm.

Maybe we could pick a time and everyone could sing "give peace a chance". Be kind of cool, sing where you are, right?

No bic lighters allowed - could be harmful to some of us with certain health conditions.

[group hug] [group hug] [group hug]

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Robin123
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Haha - sing with me: "All we are asking is give age a chance..."

Hey, look - dogsandcats is now dogsandcatsandboids! I need to get me one of those boids!

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Tincup wrote: What if many diseases over the years have been caused by Borrelia spirochetes and other tick borne diseases (organisms) and no one ever knew?

What if some of today's diseases are actually caused by infections with these organisms?
. . .

I have thought this all along (probably many of us have, especially after seeing "Under Our Skin").

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quote:
Originally posted by Tincup:
Next time you all get to town you might want to pick up a couple of get well cards for the Lyme Net moderators.

Actually, make it three cards if dogs and cats decides to join in the attack on TC. Do you dare?

In the meantime, please someone get me a blindfold to put over my eyes. I really don't want to see what I am getting ready to do to them!

[lol]

And when you hurt us, you are taking over for us, right?!?!

Nice title change to the thread, [lol]

James, Grandmother? I wish!!! I can't wait for grandchildren!!! I have two adult children, it's time!

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sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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Dogsandcats
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The birdie is for you Robin! Did you get my pm?

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God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.

Billy Graham

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sixgoofykids
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I thought the birdie was for me .... didn't you hear my birds when we spoke the other day? [Smile]

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Lymetoo
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Hey Catgirl, this is no time to get SERIOUS!! [lol]

Yeah, I saw that topic change. Very sneaky, Tincup!

James.. no grandma here either. As we said, Tincup is the old one. She's a real grandma!!

(I am so going to be in trouble for that one.) But who cares? I've been in trouble before!! [Big Grin]

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Opinions, not medical advice!

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Robin123
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six, is this thread for the birds? I think I'm about to get a bird, but I have to go through the adoption process - I'll let you know how it goes -
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sixgoofykids
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Robin, what kind of bird? Keep it small unless messy, noisy, and expensive is no problem!!! My daughter has a pacific parrottlet and it's the cutest thing ever!!! It's a full blown parrot, but fits in your pocket! And, he has no idea he's so small.

I have a cockatoo ..... love him to death ... he's cuddly ... but messy and LOUD! My Hahn's macaw is very cute (and the smallest macaw), full of personality, but is not a cuddler.

What was the topic of this thread anyway?? LOL

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by sixgoofykids:

What was the topic of this thread anyway?? LOL

-
It was something about how old Tincup is. [spinning smile]

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--Lymetutu--
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tdtid
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Wow...what an entertaining thread. :-) I was extemely interested in the original article, but then got entertainment to go with it. Thanks for the smiles all.

Cathy

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"To Dream The Impossible Dream" Man of La Mancha

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Lymetoo
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[lol] Glad to be of service, Cathy!!

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Robin123
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Six, didn't you read above that dogsandcats was giving me a bird? It has arrived - ie, has been successfully adopted -

Re your question about what kind of bird, it's small, not messy or noisy, and involves no expense. It's actually the easiest kind of bird to keep.

Am still getting acquainted with it, but it appears to be possibly hungry all the time, or might be exhibiting a pinch of an OCD personality -

And...it's a young bird, at this point in time, not old, like some entities mentioned above...

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Tincup
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Woah!

Want to stop me in my tracks? Then threaten me with this, like the moderators did- you know, those really old ones- and I will have to cry "Uncle" and toss in the towel! Threats like this really knock me down!

Goofy said... "And when you hurt us, you are taking over for us, right?!?!"

[Eek!]

No, no, no! Anything but that!

[lol]

And PS to Dogs/Cats.... thank you for being so sweet! What a lovely moderator you are!

Now it's off to Talladega Baby!

[Big Grin]

--------------------
www.TreatTheBite.com
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www.MarylandLyme.org
www.LymeDoc.org

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Dogsandcats
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Robin.....I gave you the best bird I had..he is a good bird, he won't fly away. He will be handy for you to have around if the need arises.

TC.....don't feel bad about being old. I get AARP mail...and my son signs me up for all the free trials-snore guards, scooter store etc....

Sing along with me "everything is beautiful..."

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God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.

Billy Graham

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sixgoofykids
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You better not hurt us then, TC!!!! Otherwise there will be NO ONE left to moderate!!! Dogsandcats is new, she would need an old timer's help!! [Big Grin]

Robin .... OHHHHHH .... I get it now!! That is the perfect bird!!!!

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Lymetoo
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Robin... yes, your bird has OCD .. quite evident!

Tincup....we will try to forgive you. [Wink]

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Robin123
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I just hope my bird has OCD naturally, rather than exhibiting any Lyme OCD. I prefer to have adopted a tickless bird.

I have just returned a couple months later to name my bird OCcupieD, in honor of its condition and the movement.

Tincup, am wondering whether you need to add another site, www.IcemanLyme.org?

[ 12-11-2011, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Robin123 ]

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sixgoofykids
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Birds naturally have OCD.

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TylerAdam
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I'm confused now - is iceman the oldest lymie around at 5300 years old or can some of the mods on lymenet beat it!!?? lol

Please don't ban me as euro lyme is pretty bad!

Just found some more on this published today, I find this very interesting!
Nature - The Iceman 24th Oct 2011

Sound like they found the borrelia in a sample of hip bone - I know one hip was damaged getting iceman out of the ice.

The test was a DNA test on the sample using:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_genome_sequencing

I guess we could have the same test if we could provide a tissue sample?

Also, are the tattoos here marking lyme pain spots for ongoing treatment!??

Iceman Photoscan

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lymie tony z
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I'm not as old as the iceman however...

after backtracking my physical history I can

honestly attest to tick fever causeing my lower

limbs to be paralyzed in 1954. Symptoms I was

forced to put up with since a doc treated

my "TICK FEVER" with IM penicillin back in 54

were degenerative(lyme) arthritis, migraine

headaches(convulsive, projectile like vomit),

manic depressive behavior of course undiagnosed

way back then...etc....I think in some freakish

way I may have been somewhat immune or at least

my own immune system was handling it until I

was given anti-inflamms....and I believe those

were the catalyst'S which unleashed the longtime(

last time I ever took a tick off of myself in 85)

TBD infestation....somehow laying dormant till

the anti inflams.

so if no one has honestly been infected since

1954 I guess me and the iceman will take top

honors(so to speak) for having lyme the longest(

although not technically called lyme then).

I have run accross migrans rashes as being the

only known effects of Bb in Europe back when the

French were examining the phenome or "syndrome")!

zman

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I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman

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CountryMouse
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When I heard about this originally, I automatically assumed that the government was somehow promoting this to cover their tracks. I have no idea if I am completely paranoid or not!!

But think about it. If we are all saying "hey you guys genetically modified Lyme and/or released it" then the government promotes the fact that Lyme has been around "forever", then it looks like we don't have any idea of what we're talking about.

"NO! We didn't release anything! See?? It was alive "back then" ".

Eh, I'm probably paranoid!! But can you blame me?

--------------------
Country Mouse

6/2011 IgX:
IGG: 31 IND, 41+++, 45+, 58+
IGM: 31+, 39 IND, 41 IND, 83-93 IND
Band 31 confirmed to be Lyme epitope by Igenex 7/2011

8/2011 IgX: POSITIVE
IGG: 31+, 34 IND, 39 IND, 41++, 45+, 58+
IGM: 31+, 34 IND, 39 IND, 41++, 83-93+

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CountryMouse
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I would also like to compare the genetics of the old Lyme to our current Lyme and see what has been altered.

--------------------
Country Mouse

6/2011 IgX:
IGG: 31 IND, 41+++, 45+, 58+
IGM: 31+, 39 IND, 41 IND, 83-93 IND
Band 31 confirmed to be Lyme epitope by Igenex 7/2011

8/2011 IgX: POSITIVE
IGG: 31+, 34 IND, 39 IND, 41++, 45+, 58+
IGM: 31+, 34 IND, 39 IND, 41++, 83-93+

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In19944
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mouse..That's the first thing I thought.
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Lymedin2010
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Sorry, but we give our Gov too much credit for this type of conspiracy. Lyme cannot just simply be created as it currently stands. It has many layers and is very well protected, something that only evolution and millions of years of trial and error can produce.

Goverments are usually too dumb to produce such a species. What they are good at is making you think that they are spending money on worthy projects, while lining their and their constituents pockets.

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Tincup
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Mouse said.. "If we are all saying "hey you guys genetically modified Lyme and/or released it" ..."

Just to be really clear- the overwhelming majority of people in the Lyme community- including doctors, scientists and patients- are NOT saying the government genetically modified Lyme, ticks or spirochetes and/or released them.

There are a few people who enjoying studying the various theories and even those who promote them (like the Kennedy assassination theories or conspiracies), but to date no solid evidence supporting the theories has ever been presented or confirmed.

Even if it was done, there is nothing we can do now to fix it.

If it wasn't done, we look nuts trying to promote that it was or could have been done. That is something that detracts from what we all need, which is to find a cure for Lyme and in doing so remain credible.

Please keep in mind spirochetes, like cockroaches and other insects for example, have been around and evolving for millions of years.

In fact, spirochetes managed to survive for at least 20 million years. Evidence of their existence was confirmed in 2001 when spirochetes were found in the intestinal tissue of a fossilized termite preserved in amber.

http://www.pnas.org/content/99/3/1410.full.pdf

Just wanted to make sure that is clear to all.

[Big Grin]

--------------------
www.TreatTheBite.com
www.DrJonesKids.org
www.MarylandLyme.org
www.LymeDoc.org

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