posted
People with chronic Lyme often have more or as many IgM as IgG; IgM is the first response to the infection, and since the organism is constantly replicating and changing its proteins, you'll continue to have IgM.
I wonder if this means that when we stop getting IgM, the infection is gone?
I don't know of other pathogens that do this. There aren't many other stealth bacteria (to my knowledge) such as the borrelia species, that continuously change their surface proteins to evade the immune system and create this constant-IgM thing. Hopefully others will chime in.
little olive
-------------------- Myalgic encephalomyelitis, 2002 | Viral onset, following Hep B vaccine Lyme since '06 | Bartonella since '08 (cured) | Mycoplasma pneumoniae since '08 IGeneX: IgM 31IND 34IND 41+ | IgG 39IND 58+ 41+++ IgG deficiencies and MTHFR 677TT mutations Posts: 512 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2010
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posted
It's the only one I know of. But I'm no expert.
Wonder if syphilis is the same?
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 94834 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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susank
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22150
posted
Tks. I remember reading about the persistent IGM thing - but cannot recall what other organisms can do this. I thought maybe there were/are but I forget more than I remember.
Anyway, my first Igenex was Dec '08 that had IGM band 18. My most recent test Sept '11 had IGM band 18.
I need to update my sig. line to include the latest/fourth results - suffice to say no new bands.
Also - most of my IGM reactive bands have not "converted" to IGG. Wonder about that as well. Don't most diseases do that? eventually?
Also weird - my results considering my immunoglobulin "state" - if it factors in somehow.
I am subnormal on total Imm.G. and low end normal on total Imm.M. I am thinking that might mean that I - and others with hypogammaglobulinemia/CVID might be at a "disadvantage" on tests?
Despite my low IGG producing capability I still managed to show a reaction on the "difficult" "specific" IGG band 39 albeit IND.
And with my low IGM prod. cap. still managed to show a range of IGM bands.
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
I have several immunoglobulin G subclass deficiencies (confirmed and borderline depending on which ones) and I still manage to pump out some responses... I recently got three stars on my 41, I didn't even know my body was capable of that, ha!
It does talk about the seroconversion theories in the blog link.
-------------------- Myalgic encephalomyelitis, 2002 | Viral onset, following Hep B vaccine Lyme since '06 | Bartonella since '08 (cured) | Mycoplasma pneumoniae since '08 IGeneX: IgM 31IND 34IND 41+ | IgG 39IND 58+ 41+++ IgG deficiencies and MTHFR 677TT mutations Posts: 512 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2010
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There is a pdf version which I have. Made quick work of finding the URL of the study.
quote:J Clin Microbiol. 1996 January; 34(1): 1–9.
PMCID: PMC228718 Evolution of the serologic response to Borrelia burgdorferi in treated patients with culture-confirmed erythema migrans. M E Aguero-Rosenfeld, J Nowakowski, S Bittker, D Cooper, R B Nadelman, and G P Wormser Department of Pathology, New York Medical College, Valhalla, USA.
Posts: 426 | From Berkeley, CA | Registered: Feb 2009
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susank
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posted
Tks Chuck. I had a brief look at the full version. A bit over my head.
I don't think I read about IGM bands persisting for, say, three years - which is my case for band 18.
Others have had IGM bands show that many years?
I feel that band 18 is trying to tell me something. It is not listed as specific because - it can cross-react?
That means someone has seen something that is not Bb for that band? A known organism - or not identified or named?
Lymeneteurope has a list of other possibilities for some of the non-specific bands. I think for 18 a possibility is Cpn?
I have not been tested for that but soon will be. Is it known if Cpn can cause persistent IGM antibodies?
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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susank
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posted
Is there some reason you want this information? Do you think you don't have Lyme? Or don't WANT it to be Lyme? You have band 39 which is THE most specific band for Lyme that there is. You need to seriously treat these infections.
-------------------- Myalgic encephalomyelitis, 2002 | Viral onset, following Hep B vaccine Lyme since '06 | Bartonella since '08 (cured) | Mycoplasma pneumoniae since '08 IGeneX: IgM 31IND 34IND 41+ | IgG 39IND 58+ 41+++ IgG deficiencies and MTHFR 677TT mutations Posts: 512 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2010
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posted
I honestly don't understand what else information you're looking for but good luck finding it.
Taking any antibiotic just won't work. You might consider Rifampin and Doxycyline together. This combination kills Lyme disease, bartonella, ehrlichiosis, mycoplasma, and CPN; you really can't go wrong. But because it kills so many bugs at once people often herx very severely, so be sure to start small.
Posts: 512 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2010
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susank
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Who knows the source and validity of this info....
I would like similar info on organisms that have persistent IGM responses.
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- IGM persists for years - What other organisms do this? --------
There are many other organisms that can persist for a long time and evade testing. Even some of the food poisonings are now being seen as chronic if not addressed early on.
The list of chronic stealth infections is not all that short, really.
Cpn comes to mind first. Mycoplasma pneumonia is another. HHV-6; HHV-7; Coxsackie Virus . ..
I'm not sure about the IgM thing, though but I know the typical testing often misses the mark.
I think it's the IgA that matters most to diagnose chronic Cpn (Chlamydia pneumonia) but the IgG, IgM and IgA should all be tested. The IgM does matter, maybe not as much as the IgA, though. Cpn can also persist for decades unless specific treatment (or spectacular luck).
susank
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Member # 22150
posted
Tks. If you will bear with me on another train of thought - perhaps previously discussed.
IGM and cross-reactivity on non specific bands;
If an organism were to be a cross reaction on a LD WB for IGM - that organism would have to be in its IGM phase??
Seems like most bacteria/viruses show IGM positive/reacting for just a few weeks - and could quite possibly - show up on an LD IGM band?
Then once that organism converted to "lifelong" IGG presence it could not show as cross reaction under a WB IGM?
Ugh - does anyone understand what I am trying to get at?
So bands showing persistent IGM presence for years could be compared to other organisms and their expected IGM "shelf-life"?
To narrow down and/or eliminate some organisms for diagnostic purposes? Or am I totally off base here?
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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shazdancer
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posted
I think I get your point. Yes, if one band of the IgM Western Blot is positive for, say, 3 different diseases including Lyme, one might want to eliminate the possibility of it being the other two diseases causing it.
Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Some bands respond to multiple organisms, and some to very common organisms, such as the borrelia in the mouth that cause gingivitis.
It's more of a Venn diagram approach, which is why many bands are needed for a confirmed diagnosis, hoping that Lyme will be the one commonality in all the positive bands. Bands that are specific to Lyme should also carry more weight.
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