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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » IGM persists for years - What other organisms do this?

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Author Topic: IGM persists for years - What other organisms do this?
susank
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Anyone know? Can provide a citing/reference/link? Tks.

--------------------
Pos.Bb culture 2012
Labcorp - no bands ever
Igenex - Neg. 4 times
With overall bands:
IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39
IGG 41,58 IND: 39
Bart H IGG 40

Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
little_olive
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People with chronic Lyme often have more or as many IgM as IgG; IgM is the first response to the infection, and since the organism is constantly replicating and changing its proteins, you'll continue to have IgM.

Link: "What do we know: Lyme is associated with more IgM than IgG antibodies. Certain antibodies, for example: 18, 23, 31, 34, 39 41?, 93 are HIGHLY specific for exposure to Lyme bacteria."

I wonder if this means that when we stop getting IgM, the infection is gone?

I don't know of other pathogens that do this. There aren't many other stealth bacteria (to my knowledge) such as the borrelia species, that continuously change their surface proteins to evade the immune system and create this constant-IgM thing. Hopefully others will chime in.


little olive

--------------------
Myalgic encephalomyelitis, 2002 | Viral onset, following Hep B vaccine
Lyme since '06 | Bartonella since '08 (cured) | Mycoplasma pneumoniae since '08
IGeneX: IgM 31IND 34IND 41+ | IgG 39IND 58+ 41+++
IgG deficiencies and MTHFR 677TT mutations

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Lymetoo
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It's the only one I know of. But I'm no expert.

Wonder if syphilis is the same?

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

Posts: 94834 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
susank
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Tks. I remember reading about the persistent IGM thing - but cannot recall what other organisms can do this. I thought maybe there were/are but I forget more than I remember.

Anyway, my first Igenex was Dec '08 that had IGM band 18. My most recent test Sept '11 had IGM band 18.

I need to update my sig. line to include the latest/fourth results - suffice to say no new bands.

Also - most of my IGM reactive bands have not "converted" to IGG. Wonder about that as well. Don't most diseases do that? eventually?

Also weird - my results considering my immunoglobulin "state" - if it factors in somehow.

I am subnormal on total Imm.G. and low end
normal on total Imm.M. I am thinking that might mean that I - and others with hypogammaglobulinemia/CVID might be at a "disadvantage" on tests?

Despite my low IGG producing capability I still managed to show a reaction on the "difficult" "specific" IGG band 39 albeit IND.

And with my low IGM prod. cap. still managed to show a range of IGM bands.

--------------------
Pos.Bb culture 2012
Labcorp - no bands ever
Igenex - Neg. 4 times
With overall bands:
IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39
IGG 41,58 IND: 39
Bart H IGG 40

Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
little_olive
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I have several immunoglobulin G subclass deficiencies (confirmed and borderline depending on which ones) and I still manage to pump out some responses... I recently got three stars on my 41, I didn't even know my body was capable of that, ha!

It does talk about the seroconversion theories in the blog link.

--------------------
Myalgic encephalomyelitis, 2002 | Viral onset, following Hep B vaccine
Lyme since '06 | Bartonella since '08 (cured) | Mycoplasma pneumoniae since '08
IGeneX: IgM 31IND 34IND 41+ | IgG 39IND 58+ 41+++
IgG deficiencies and MTHFR 677TT mutations

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ChuckG
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When last I looked this was most recent temporal analysis of IgG/IgM. Also have later IgM only study. I've forgotten the details.

Full html paper

There is a pdf version which I have. Made quick work of finding the URL of the study.

quote:
J Clin Microbiol. 1996 January; 34(1): 19.

PMCID: PMC228718
Evolution of the serologic response to Borrelia burgdorferi in treated patients with culture-confirmed erythema migrans.
M E Aguero-Rosenfeld, J Nowakowski, S Bittker, D Cooper, R B Nadelman, and G P Wormser
Department of Pathology, New York Medical College, Valhalla, USA.


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susank
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Tks Chuck. I had a brief look at the full version. A bit over my head.

I don't think I read about IGM bands persisting for, say, three years - which is my case for band 18.

Others have had IGM bands show that many years?

I feel that band 18 is trying to tell me something. It is not listed as specific because - it can cross-react?

That means someone has seen something that is not Bb for that band? A known organism - or not identified or named?

Lymeneteurope has a list of other possibilities for some of the non-specific bands. I think for 18 a possibility is Cpn?

I have not been tested for that but soon will be. Is it known if Cpn can cause persistent IGM antibodies?

--------------------
Pos.Bb culture 2012
Labcorp - no bands ever
Igenex - Neg. 4 times
With overall bands:
IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39
IGG 41,58 IND: 39
Bart H IGG 40

Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
susank
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Found this:

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/6/780.full.pdf

If it mentions other organisms that maintaim IGM response for years I missed it. Still searching...

--------------------
Pos.Bb culture 2012
Labcorp - no bands ever
Igenex - Neg. 4 times
With overall bands:
IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39
IGG 41,58 IND: 39
Bart H IGG 40

Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
little_olive
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Is there some reason you want this information? Do you think you don't have Lyme? Or don't WANT it to be Lyme? You have band 39 which is THE most specific band for Lyme that there is. You need to seriously treat these infections.

--------------------
Myalgic encephalomyelitis, 2002 | Viral onset, following Hep B vaccine
Lyme since '06 | Bartonella since '08 (cured) | Mycoplasma pneumoniae since '08
IGeneX: IgM 31IND 34IND 41+ | IgG 39IND 58+ 41+++
IgG deficiencies and MTHFR 677TT mutations

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Lymetoo
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I was tested 42 yrs after initial infection and I had IgM bands.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

Posts: 94834 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
susank
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LO - the IGM is something I thought about and cannot find an answer for.

That - and what you said in your post.

I am taking Abx now.

Researching I found that MycoP can have IGM elevated up to 4 years.

I have seen my question asked elsewhere on other sites with no answers. Why is that?

Example: http://www.differencebetween.net/science/health/difference-between-igm-and-igg/

Under comments - Nick asks it better than I can.

If Bb is the only organism that has IGM for years - isn't that something rather profound to think about - for Dx - for naysayers - etc.?

BTW - LO - I sent you a PM.

--------------------
Pos.Bb culture 2012
Labcorp - no bands ever
Igenex - Neg. 4 times
With overall bands:
IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39
IGG 41,58 IND: 39
Bart H IGG 40

Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
little_olive
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I honestly don't understand what else information you're looking for but good luck finding it.

Taking any antibiotic just won't work. You might consider Rifampin and Doxycyline together. This combination kills Lyme disease, bartonella, ehrlichiosis, mycoplasma, and CPN; you really can't go wrong. But because it kills so many bugs at once people often herx very severely, so be sure to start small.

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susank
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I am looking for info like this:

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1686

Who knows the source and validity of this info....

I would like similar info on organisms that have persistent IGM responses.

--------------------
Pos.Bb culture 2012
Labcorp - no bands ever
Igenex - Neg. 4 times
With overall bands:
IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39
IGG 41,58 IND: 39
Bart H IGG 40

Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Keebler
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-
IGM persists for years - What other organisms do this?
--------

There are many other organisms that can persist for a long time and evade testing. Even some of the food poisonings are now being seen as chronic if not addressed early on.

The list of chronic stealth infections is not all that short, really.

Cpn comes to mind first. Mycoplasma pneumonia is another. HHV-6; HHV-7; Coxsackie Virus . ..

I'm not sure about the IgM thing, though but I know the typical testing often misses the mark.

I think it's the IgA that matters most to diagnose chronic Cpn (Chlamydia pneumonia) but the IgG, IgM and IgA should all be tested. The IgM does matter, maybe not as much as the IgA, though. Cpn can also persist for decades unless specific treatment (or spectacular luck).

more detail at

www.cpnhelp.org

Cpn HELP
-

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shazdancer
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Immunoglobulin G (IgG) is a type of protein that continues to be produced after an initial infection, see
http://labtestsonline.org/glossary/igg

Here is one reference mentioning that parvovirus patients may remain IgG positive for the rest of their lives, see
http://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/parvo/tab/test

Here is a pretty good explanation on the different immunoglobulins can be found at
http://www.nichd.nih.gov/publications/pubs/primary_immuno.cfm#TheImmuneDefenses
(see especially the second green box) and the basics of the immune system is well-explained at
http://kidshealth.org/parent/general/body_basics/immune.html

Sharon
www.lymebrary.com

Posts: 1558 | From the Berkshires | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
susank
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Tks. If you will bear with me on another train of thought - perhaps previously discussed.

IGM and cross-reactivity on non specific bands;

If an organism were to be a cross reaction on a LD WB for IGM - that organism would have to be in its IGM phase??

Seems like most bacteria/viruses show IGM positive/reacting for just a few weeks - and could quite possibly - show up on an LD IGM band?

Then once that organism converted to "lifelong" IGG presence it could not show as cross reaction under a WB IGM?

Ugh - does anyone understand what I am trying to get at?

So bands showing persistent IGM presence for years could be compared to other organisms and their expected IGM "shelf-life"?

To narrow down and/or eliminate some organisms for diagnostic purposes? Or am I totally off base here?

--------------------
Pos.Bb culture 2012
Labcorp - no bands ever
Igenex - Neg. 4 times
With overall bands:
IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39
IGG 41,58 IND: 39
Bart H IGG 40

Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
shazdancer
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I think I get your point. Yes, if one band of the IgM Western Blot is positive for, say, 3 different diseases including Lyme, one might want to eliminate the possibility of it being the other two diseases causing it.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Some bands respond to multiple organisms, and some to very common organisms, such as the borrelia in the mouth that cause gingivitis.

It's more of a Venn diagram approach, which is why many bands are needed for a confirmed diagnosis, hoping that Lyme will be the one commonality in all the positive bands. Bands that are specific to Lyme should also carry more weight.

By the way, here is LabTestOnline's page on the Lyme WB:
http://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/lyme/tab/test
and Igenex had an early article on blood testing for Lyme:
http://www.igenex.com/labtest.htm
and further infomration on the Western Blot and specific testing for bands 30 and 31 can be found on their website.

This list describing the WB bands, though not published, may also be of some help:
http://www.anapsid.org/lyme/wb.html

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