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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Cherry Angiomas

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Author Topic: Cherry Angiomas
bcb1200
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So..I've always had a few of these (genetics.) The ones I know I have always had are very small. My Mom has them too..it runs in our family.

Anyway, last week I had a patch on my back that was a bit itchy. Today, I have a large Cherry Angioma there. Much larger than the "usual ones" I always have. This one is new.

I have read that Babs can cause this. Is this what others have heard? If not, what is the cause / which infection?

Thanks!

--------------------
Bite date ?
2/10 symptoms began
5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors

IgM Igenex +/CDC +
+ 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93

Currently on:

Currently at around 80% +/- most days.

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IckyTicky
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I have these as well. My LLMD says it's from Lyme and most of his patients have them. He said in women they tend to be on the chest, back and stomach. But I really figure mine might be from Bart

--------------------
IGM: 18+, 23+, 30+, 31+++, 34+, 39IND, 41++, 58+++, 66+, 83-93IND
IGG: 31+, 39IND, 41+
Also positive for Mycoplasma Pneumoniae and RMSF.
Whole family of 5 dx with Lyme.

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BoxerMom
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Me, too. The teeny tiny ones.

I've seen these in people who are Babs OR Bart dominant, so who knows? I tend to think Babs, but can't be sure.

These also come out in people with bromide toxicity.

Here's a link:

http://www.breastcancerchoices.org/bromidedominancetheory.html

Read under "Skin."

As bromides are considered neurotoxins, the cherry angiomas could just be a symptom of neurotoxins, regardless of source.

But it would be great to correlate them with a specific infection.

So many unanswered questions...

--------------------
 - Must...find...BRAIN!!!

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Rumigirl
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They are considered a prime symptom of Babesia, athough I've recently heard some people here saying Bart. I think that was their idea(?).
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MichaelTampa
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I heard one lyme doc at a seminar say they were from bart.

How could we know for sure...

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BuffyFan
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oh wow, I'm glad I read this. I have these stupid things in different areas on my body, different sizes, the largest, a little larger than a pencil eraser is on my forehead!!I hate it and don't have the money for laser to get rid of them. does anyone know if they go away after being treated for babesia or bart?
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CherylSue
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up
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LAXlover
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I also have a bunch of these pesty things and more popping up all the time.

It really would be nice to know what's causing these, bart, babs or other.

--------------------
LAXlover

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willbeatthis
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Amen-- I don't know if they are bart or babs... Any help with this would be great!
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randibear
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one doctor told me me they were from aging. but no way, i ain't buying that.

i've seen other women and they don't have them and they're my age.

their lyme but what kind i don't know.

do they ever go away tho? that's the question

--------------------
do not look back when the only course is forward

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Robin123
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I have some of them, and I have Lyme only. So, Lyme or aging?
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sbh93
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I think any kind of inflammation can cause them--whether lyme, a coinfection, or otherwise. Best to keep plugging away with treatment...

Recently I decided to print out the symptoms lists again and reassess myself since, like so many here, I have babs, bart, and lyme. It was eye-opening. I have nearly all lyme symptoms, every single bart symptom, but only a few babs symptoms. My doc found it helpful. And for what it's worth, I'm still getting more of these red dot things too.

--------------------
------------
It took 20 years to find out I'm not crazy.
New bite in 2010 pushed my body over the edge. Positive for lyme, babs, bart, and myco.
I am not a doctor and happily offer only my own opinions.

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BuffyFan
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I don't believe it's due to aging~ I mean really, what are some docs trying to pull over us?? I've had these for awhile now and I"m 39...other people I know who are my age don't have these, my parents don't, my in-laws don't......
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randibear
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it's part of the ole "you're white, overweight, and old" routine....i get sick of it.

--------------------
do not look back when the only course is forward

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lost11
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I have one on my belly its tiny. My mom has them. I don't think mine has anything to do with Lyme. It was there way before I got infected a couple years back.
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elainer97
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I've always had a few like my mother does but the last few yrs they have popped up like crazy along with alot of teensy red dots. Also small brown patchy mole looking thingies.

I do not like them.

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chootik
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Elainer97,

I have exactly what you're describing. Lots of the flat tiny red dots (not sure if they are Cherry Angiomas as mine are not moles) and the brown liver spots and the brown mole like things. The Dermatologist called them "skin tags".

I'm so sick of this. There is def. something going on inside of us and these are just there to prove that. It's prob due to inflamation from the neurotoxins! I hate them!!

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lauirel
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I can't say which infection it is either, but here are some things to consider. I think this was also brought up on another thread recently.

With the appearance of cherry angioma's and petechaie, this is a clear indicator of systemic coagulopathy whether considered a normal occurrence by your treating doc or not. Some consider this normal as we age, like so many incompetent dermatologists, BUT in relation to diagnosed Lyme and co-infections,... yeah, it is normal that these appear. And again, may I repeat, but in light of diagnosed Lyme and co-infections... With the new onset, and enlargement of these, would then be an indicator of recent or ongoing systemic coagulation issues. I don't believe they are normal at all, and I certainly don't believe a dermatologist telling me so in light of diagnosed disease in which a blood destruction component is absolutely present.

We already know, Lyme, Babesia, and Bartonella cause coagulation issues in its patients. Its why so many of our treating LLMD's recommend enzymes and others, as these help to address this particular issue as well as other conditions presenting in these diseases.

Laurie

--------------------
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; indeed, its the only thing that ever has.

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BuffyFan
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How do enzymes help with this? and are you talking about digestive enzymes or something different?
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lauirel
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No, that is not what I am referring to, as it is not specific enough.

Common enzymes used by our treating LLMD's may include Nattokinase...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nattokinase

Lumbrokinase...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumbrokinase

Serrapeptase

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serrapeptase

--------------------
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; indeed, its the only thing that ever has.

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lauirel
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As far as inflammation, that could be a resultant affect of coagulation issues or a cause of them. It can really go either way.

Its important to understand why these cherry angiomas and petechaie occur, or better said, HOW they occur.

With a blood destruction component present, this forms coagulation and fibrin deposition in the smaller vessels first. Its these smaller vessels that are located near the outer surface of our skin, and so there for can be seen on the skin. These result from coagulation in the capillaries, and the blood pressure then bursting these small capillaries because they are "plugged". Thus the formation of small and progressively larger petechaie and angiomas that can be seen in the skin if not addressed. They are basically little aneurysms in the skin.

Laurie

--------------------
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; indeed, its the only thing that ever has.

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chootik
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Laurie,

This is the first time someone has connected the red dots to coagulation and I think you're right on!

I'm curious how did you come up with that conclusion? Also does the lyme cause blood destruction? Would that elevate Billirubin by the way? Mine is always a little elevated.

By the way I saw a nice dermatologist Friday and sure enough she said everything is fine, eventhough these things are all over my body now!

She called the larger brown spots "Seborrheic Keratosis". Not sure if it makes a difference but apparenetly they are part of aging and also inflamation in the body.

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katiebobatie
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i have one of these, and i had never seen anything like it on anyone else so i'm glad to have seen this post...

i have lyme, bartonella, and babesia, so it's hard to say which causes it.

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lauirel
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chootik,

I developed petechaie and cherry angiomas before I was first diagnosed and treated. I had never had anything abnormal present in my skin prior to the mess Lyme and company can make of our bodies. Through homework, my lab results, and experiences with specific treatments in correlation to this particular issue, this is how I reached my conclusion. No doc, and certainly no dermatologist, will convince me this is a normal occurrence in light of diagnosed Lyme and company and a few bacterial infectious diseases outside of the Lyme realm.

quote:
Also does the lyme cause blood destruction?
Absolutely. Anything that can penetrate or cause hemolysis of the RBC initiates a blood destruction component, one of those being thrombocytopenia, abnormal coagulation status, etc.

quote:
Would that elevate Billirubin by the way? Mine is always a little elevated.
My biliirubin was abnormally high prior to my diagnosis. The relation to this particular issue we are discussing is that billirubin is a resultant product of heme breakdown, and heme is part of hemoglobin in which is one of the principal components of the RBC. A RBC's lifetime is on the approximate order of 120 days, and then through normal chemical signaling and processing, it "dies". Its actually apoptosis through chemokine signaling, but the specifics are not important to the concept.

But....in context to Lyme and company....With an abnormally high level of billirubin, then a working assumption would then be there is more heme present than what can be processed by the body. The next working assumption would then be either there is a blood destruction component or hemolysis present, or the liver and spleen are unable to process the breakdown of RBC's, or heme in a normal fashion. Then next you would move on to Liver enzymes and whether those show any abnormalities in which may also lend to the assumption of some kind of damage to the liver in which it cannot process the breakdown products properly. OR....You would then investigate infectious disease in which may cause the abnormally high level of heme....OR you might also check genetic correlations in which many with Lyme and company are also presenting with. And so on until your working hypothesis can become a diagnosis.

quote:
By the way I saw a nice dermatologist Friday and sure enough she said everything is fine, eventhough these things are all over my body now!
I never said they weren't nice, just incompetent in infectious disease with the skin heralding markers. I don't get a sense of well being from a dermatologist telling me I am in great health or that what I have manifesting in my skin is normal, especially after having been diagnosed with proven infectious capabilities in which affect my health in so many ways that a derm wouldn't even have the first clue in. And certainly most docs are inarguably not competent in treating Lyme/Co. except for those dedicated to it. Just saying... [Smile]

quote:
She called the larger brown spots "Seborrheic Keratosis". Not sure if it makes a difference but apparenetly they are part of aging and also inflamation in the body.
SK is quite normally found in those that are aging, but we aren't referring to those, we are referring specifically to the appearance of petechaie and cherry angiomas and diagnosed infectious diseases. In the number of Lyme/Co. sufferers in which do not meet this "normal aging criteria", how do we explain the normality of this occurrence? And normal has certainly been removed from the aged to a much younger range don't ya think? But that is a generality and should not be confused with what we are discussing here. Inflammation is never normal especially in light of aging.

It is a signal of further things to come should it not be addressed.

Laurie

--------------------
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; indeed, its the only thing that ever has.

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chootik
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Laurie,

Thank you so much for your in-depth analysis of this! Very helpfull.

I'm with you as to the thinking that this is not NORMAL and we have to fix whatever is causing our poor skin all these issues.

Are you by the way done in terms of treatment? Did the Cherry Angiomas go away?

Hope you're well
Chootik

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bcb1200
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So..update.

I did a pulse of Coartem and am now on Rifabutin (Mycobutin...a "newer" Rifampin.)

Well...my new, large angioma is now considerably smaller. Not sure if it is the Coartem or the Rifabutin.

But thought I would report this. It appears to be going away. Hmmm.

--------------------
Bite date ?
2/10 symptoms began
5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors

IgM Igenex +/CDC +
+ 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93

Currently on:

Currently at around 80% +/- most days.

Posts: 3116 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
chootik
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Thanks bcb1200.

Are these meds for Bart you're taking?

Keep us posted.

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klutzo
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I have Lyme that has caused several heart problems, one of which is called PSVT. These are attacks of very fast heart rate plus (for me at least) very high blood pressure and a host of other horrors.

After one of these attacks my trunk and thighs are covered with cherry angiomas, which I believe are caused by tiny blood vessels being popped by the very high blood pressure.

They tend to very slowly go away, but a few remain each time, so over the years, I have more and more permanent ones.

I had one get larger and bleed when I rubbed it with the towel while drying after showers, so a dermatologist had to remove it. She called the larger one a hematolangioma.

I also have dozens of actinic keratosis, even in places never exposed to sun,and several large seborreahic keratoses, some of which are waxy and some that feel like sandpaper. I have huge crops of skin tags behind my knees, on my inner thighs and under my breasts, though the breast tags are all gone since using an antifungual powder daily to prevent Intertrigo under there.

I had none of this crud before Lyme. I had a $1,500 coagulation panel done and it was all normal, so I have no idea what is going on. iI have taken Nattokinase and serrapeptase for long periods with no results.

klutzo

klutzo

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