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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Should we all be vegans?

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Author Topic: Should we all be vegans?
nefferdun
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I am very interested in Dr. F's requirement for his patients to eat a low fat whole foods vegan diet because the organism, living in biofilm, that he discovered thrives on fat, especially animal fat. He said you cannot get completely rid of it but this diet will put people into remission. If they go back to the typical American diet, they relapse.

I am wondering how many people follow this kind of diet and how you are doing in your recovery. Do you feel it has helped you?

Also if you are treating babesia with anti-malarial drugs like mepron, do you take the suggested amount of fat with it?

Has anyone been diagnosed by F as having this organism in their blood?

How do other LLMDs view Dr. F? Do they respect his work? If he is respected, why aren't we all tested for this organism and those of us with it following the diet?

There are so many false paths promising remission. Is this another one or is this real? Is it the missing link to recover?

Thanks

**edited name of LLMD**

[ 01-13-2012, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Lymetoo ]

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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seibertneurolyme
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I am going to tackle this question. Hopefully I will not offend anyone with my answer.

Should we all be vegans -- my answer would be a big NO. Complete protein with the full spectrum of amino acids is very very important to healing. Fat is very very important to the brain and nerves.

As to what other docs think -- I think many LLMD's have a hard time accepting info from a doc who is vocal in saying that lyme can be treated in a year. Not sure of the exact wording of the docs statements-- whether he uses the words remission or what.

Just like wth any other new medical discovery the discovery of this new pathogen will take a while to be accepted. And as the doc said publishing in a medical journal is one of the first steps to greater acceptance. The doc has been presenting at medical conferences I think and that also lends credibility to his discovery.

The test for biofilm and the FL1953 by PCR (can't ever remember the spelling of the new protozoa) has only been available for 1 - 2 years. And I am pretty sure the doc has only been suggesting the diet for less than a year. Unfortunately many tickborne patients do not have the $500 or so to do this testing.

There are still some LLMD's who just treat lyme and ignore coinfections -- not many but they are out there. There has been much more emphasis on the coinfections over the last 10 years with new labs such as Galaxy Lab to test for bartonella.

As to Dr F -- I personally think his biggest contribution to tick borne research may not be finding the actual protozoa itself but the use of old fashioned microscopy which has gotten other docs such as Dr K at Clongen Lab interested in looking at the blood again to see just what is in there.

This new emphasis is what will uncover even more unknown species and strains of existing pathogens and maybe more unknown pathogens as well.

Getting away from antibody tests is a big step in the right direction in my opinion. The immune system can be so suppressed it does not recognize pathogens or they can be in hiding or you could be testing for the wrong strain of a pathogen.

Hubby is a very good example of this -- just this summer he has had posiitve antibody tests for HGA (human granulocytic anaplasma), RMSF (Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever), typhus and ehrlichia chaffensis. I don't think he has all 4 infections -- not even sure any of them is the correct one -- but all are rickettsial diseases and interrelated.

He has something that shows on his blood slides. Unfortunately a PCR test did not identify the pathogen so we just don't know what it is. But I believe it is real. Fever and low WBC are the main symptoms of this unknown pathogen. It has responded somewhat to levaquin and doxycycline.

I will get off my soapbox now.

Bea Seibert

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seibertneurolyme
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My question is has anyone who did the F lab testing for biofilm and the PCR testing for the protozoan been negative for one or both? I am skeptical because so far all I have heard are positive results from people.

I do not believe that all tickborne patients have this protozoa -- just like not everyone has ehrlichia/anaplasma or babesia etc etc.

Bea Seibert

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Dave6002
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PCR testing is very specific and Dr. F has sequenced some fragments from the new pathogen Protomyxoa.

Biofilm is associated with at least 80% human diseases.

Protomyxoa can produce biofilms and so can other micro-organisms.

So I don't think biofilm test is a specific test for a specific disease but PCR is.

[ 01-13-2012, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Lymetoo ]

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WhitneyS
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I think everyones bodies are different I just read the blood type diet book (I'm not usually into fad diets). But the information was very interesting, how some blood types are better suited for high protein low carb, others vegan is better for how their blood reacts to food.

its dead on with my blood type-- for what has worked with me. Biofilms can be lessened with Heprin or other enzymes. You can't starve your body of what it needs to help biofilms.....your body will be too weak at that point to do anything about ti anyways!

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Keebler
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-
Q: Should we all be vegans? (EVERYONE?)

Absolutely NOT.

--------------

For some, this may be very good. I was vegetarian for 18 years and, in my case, I think my body really suffered. I NEED muscle fishes and meats for many reasons. I am a type "A" blood type, so according to that author, I should not need meat.

But I do. I really do.

A note to those who are vegetarian or vegan, in addition to B-12 supplement, be sure to also get

TAURINE as a supplement. And CLA, it's a particular kind of fatty acid found mostly in grass fed animals.

Still, we should all have a PLANT BASED DIET, if you mean plants are the majority of the foods we eat. So, yes to LOTS of VEGETABLES AT EVERY MEAL, especially breakfast.

And, of course for meat and fish, if consumed, from the best sources but not in the amounts we might think. Three- four ounces goes a long way.
-

[ 01-08-2012, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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-
http://icmr.nic.in/ijmr/2006/august/0804.pdf

THE REQUIREMENTS OF PROTEIN & AMINO ACID DURING ACUTE & CHRONIC INFECTIONS

Indian J Med Res 124, August 2006, pp 129-148

- by Anura V. Kurpad

Fifteen pages of text.

Excerpt from abstract on page one:

. . . In general, the amount of extra protein that would appear to be needed is of the order of 20-25 per cent of the recommended intake, for most infections. . . .

[note: see what author states about lysine supplementation appearing to help immune function.]
-

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seibertneurolyme
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Adding to Keebler's list of supplements that are absolutely essential if one is vegetarian. Iron and folic acid are both essential and hard to get enough of without eating meat.

Hubby recently cut back on supplements for 2 or 3 weeks. This was due to year end financial reasons. He did not stop everything, but cut way back. His tongue is sore and splotchy again and his skin is cracking around his fingernails. This is from simply stopping his B complex, biotin and very high dose folinic acid (an activated form of folic acid). He continued on B12 and P5P (activated B6) and high dose niacin. It will probably take at least 3 or 4 weeks back on the supplements to get everything back in balance.

Bea Seibert

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seibertneurolyme
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Dave,

The F lab is the only one who can test for biofilm. It is a proprietary test. The reason I mentioned biofilms is that the medical literature to date has very little regarding the production of bofilm by borrelia, babesia, bartonella or any of the other tickborne diseases.

Yes biofilms have been found by a couple of researchers in regards to lyme, but don't think that has been published or widely accepted by the medical community to date.

Dr F did mention the HEMEX lab test and their ISAC (immune system activation of clotting) blood test panel in his interview. That test is not more than 5 or 10 years old and very few docs other than ACAM physicians and LLMD's have ever heard of that test. If a test is not available from Lab Corp or Quest then probably 80% or more of main stream physicians don't even know that a test exists for many many things.

I do think it is highly likely that the majority of tickborne patients have biofilms, but until more research is done it is hard to say whether the F bug or lyme or another coinfection is the cause of such biofilms.

Bea Seibert

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nefferdun
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It seems like the more I restrict my diet from animal products, sugar and refined processed foods, the better I feel. But I am not well and it is frustrating to get so close, only to slip backwards again. That is why I wonder if becoming vegan would help.

I don't want to argue the health benefits of vegetable versus animal protein. Vegan has already been shown to reverse many diseases. I just want to explore if there is something to this theory of biofilm thriving on animal fats. We know sugar feeds biofilm in our mouth which bacteria thrive in, so biofilm is not controversial.

I have not had red meat in over three years and eat mostly vegetarian these days but I do get a lot of fat especially because of the fat needed for atovoquone.

I wonder if people on a very restricted vegan diet really do recover faster than the rest of us. Changing to a vegan diet often leads to recovery from auto immune diseases, diabetes and cancer - why not lyme? Dr. F seems to be showing some proof of why it works.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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Runner17
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I think we should all be vegan. I eat a gluten free vegan diet and I have to say I think it has helped me more than anything. At my sickest I could walk up the stairs. I ran 7 miles today.

Learn the ANDI scoring for fruits and vegetables. Load your body with dark leafy greens- kale, collards, mustard greens, brussel sprouts, spinach and more. The options for true vegan foods are endless. How many different fruits and vegetables are you really eating in a week?

I would argue I intake more nutrients than anyone who eats animal products. And my body craves nutrients.

Watch forks over knives, read Crazy Sexy Diet, watch Food Inc.

A carefully planned vegan diet is incredibly healthy and can help those of us who are ill.

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faithful777
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I have been doing the geno type diet which is the next generation of the blood type diet for almost a year. It has helped me tremendously. Dr. Peter D'Adamo has software which can help you tweak the blood type diet by putting your own health info into the software. Everyone is an individual and I am blood type A who eats meat protein.

--------------------
Faithful

Just sharing my experience, I am not a doctor.

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Razzle
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I was vegan for 14 years, and it did nothing to help my health. Now I eat dairy, but not meat, seafood or eggs (allergies) and I need the dairy protein now more than ever (it is the only protein I can tolerate anymore...lost soy a long time ago, and the vegan diet may have contributed to that one)...

I have never believed everyone should eat the same thing. Our bodies are all different. We have different blood type, nutritional status, genetic variants, environmental conditions, different mixes of infections, etc., so I don't see any reason at all for there to be only one "right way" to eat...

Just my opinion...

--------------------
-Razzle
Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs.

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hadlyme
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I see Dr. F. I am on the low fat whole food diet. That is what he asks us to do. Not a fully vegan diet.

Low fat. 10-15 grams a day.

Whole foods, veggies, fruits...

I need protein in meat it seems or I will get horrible headaches. I do eat lean grass fed beef and organic chicken.

With ANY of my meats, I eat small portions.

No sugars unless I get it from an apple or two.

Simple 'diet' and yes, when you get used to it, and then go out and eat anything.. you do feel icky from eating those 'bad' foods.

As someone said in here... many different diseases and infections have biofilm (MRSA).

When one eats lower fat, the biofilm breaks up and you can kill this protozoan better and easier. Plain and simple.

Dr. F and his lab are searching in more ways than just with us that thought we had lyme. It encircles anyone in pain, fatique, ALS, Parkinsons, MS etc. He's not really on a lyme bandwagon but on a Vector borne disease route. Lots of pathogens out there.

--------------------
Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again!

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nefferdun
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I am glad you are doing so well Runner. I have Forks over Knives, both the DVD and the book - and the China Study. I agree completely, although I find it hard to completely convert. I do eat a heck of a lot more greens these days. I have incorporated more and more super foods into my diet.

Do you feel pretty well Razzel? I find it very hard to give up dairy but I am cutting back on it. If I knew it was going to get me well I sure would do it.

hadlyme, thank you for responding about Dr. F. I wonder why you get headaches when you don't eat meat. How is your recovery coming? Are you in remission?

Why do you say "in those of us that THOUGHT we had lyme. . . " Does Dr. F believe we don't really have lyme?

Did you treat babesia while with Dr. F? Did you keep fat low while on anti-malarial drugs?

Thanks

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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hadlyme
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I believe, at least for myself, that I never had 'true lyme'. Never had a tick bite. But this makes sense when he says this protozoan can be from any bug really. No, he does not call this lyme.

And insurance pays better for it when its not called lyme. Like Dr. H. stated a yr ago, that we should be calling this Multiple Chronic infectious diseases. In other words, vector borne diseases. We sort of call all of this 'lyme' and it's really maybe babs or bart or Fl1953... and not a real spirochete lyme.

That's my outlook at least.

I am on zith, diflucan, and malarone. I pulse on it. I work full time, live normal for us. Remission? I was in remission for 9yrs and then the last 3 yrs back in treatment. I feel this will be a way of life for me.

Eat right, take something to always stay on top of this, walk.. I walk 2 miles a day.

I asked Dr. F about the fat thing with malarone. He smiled. And then stated that fat will make the biofilm thicker. I do not take fat with malarone and it seems to still be working. I feel better when I take it.

My dad would get headaches if he didn't get to eat protien, and my daughter is the same way. Not sure if it has something to do with this disease or not. My dad died of ALS, in which we think now he had the protozoan left untreated for years.

Wish there was a clear answer to all this. It's not a one size fits all for sure.

--------------------
Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again!

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nefferdun
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That is really interesting. How do you pulse malarone?

I agree it should not be called "lyme disease". We should refer to it as babisiosis, boreliosis etc, or like you said, Multifple chronic infectious disease.

Why adopt the trade name Steere gave to it? We should agree with him that HIS "lyme disease" does not exist.

When something previously misunderstood is correctly identified it is given a new name. Bacteria used to be called "animacules".

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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Razzle
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Nefferdun,

When I had gone without dairy for 14 years, and that first day after starting to eat it again, I felt absolutely no different. This tells me I don't have a problem tolerating dairy.

I don't feel well now, but that's because of the Lyme/coinfections and all the other stuff it brings with it. I can say that I do feel better now than I did 6 months ago, but I still have a long way to go before I feel like I can return to somewhat of a normal lifestyle.

Yeah, I agree we shouldn't call it Lyme Disease...

--------------------
-Razzle
Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs.

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jwall
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My LLMD mentioned Dr. F and this new bug last Feb. and put me on daraprim to address it. I have been on it ever since. I pulse it 5 days on, 14 - 21 days off - and it seems to be helping me.

I didn't know much about this bug last year at this time and was too sick to ask questions really, but I will be seeing him in Feb. and asking all these questions.

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nefferdun
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Razzel, I love dairy. I am the first person to say gluten and dairy do not bother me, but how do I know - I have never given them up.
I feel so our of control with this disease that I lean towards strict control of what goes into my mouth. If nothing else it gives me a little since of empowerment. On the other hand it denies me one of the few pleasures I have left so it is hard.

I have made a lot of progress but I slide back into what is comforting. I just ate 2 home made molasses cookies - they were made with whole wheat and almond flour and only had 5 grams of sugar (honey and molasses) per cookie but fruit would have been healthier.

Instead of a 3rd cookie I had fruit. If I was really health conscious I would have started the day with a green smoothie but I have never made one that wasn't horrible.

jwall, please report back about what your doctor has to say about the new bug. I am going to look up daraprim - never heard of it.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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Garden
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I don't know that being vegan is good for the long haul, but maybe as a break for your body? Especially if you have digestive problems.

I watched Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead, and it was pretty inspirational. I am currently on Day 6 of a 7 day raw juice fast. I'm going easy on the fruit and trying to load up on greens.

A yummy green smoothie I made yesterday was

1/2 head green cabbage
1 granny smith apple
1/2 lime

There are many recipes at juicingbook.com

I think that adding raw veggie juice to any diet would be a step in the right direction for most of us.

--------------------
Garden

"Fibromylagia" for 8+ years
Pos IgeneX WB per both Igenex and CDC
Pos Neuroscience MyLymeImmuneID
Started tx for Lyme in March 2011

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jwall
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Forgot to mention that I really started noticing improvement when I bought the Vitamix and started green smoothies...1 for breakfast and 1 for lunch. I eat (try to eat) a vegan meal for dinner. When I really start to crave a certain food (usually eggs or chicken), I eat it. I just listen to what my body is telling me. If I am craving salt, I eat lots of it. If I am craving a glass full of milk, I drink it. But when I cut out dairy, I started getting better, so I try not to do too much dairy.

I do have a delicious green smoothie recipe, but it is high in fruit sugar. I pulse my antibiotics, so I tend to get away with the high fruit green smoothies on my weeks off. I am on meds 10 days on, 21 days off.

Green smoothie that is so delicious:

- a handful of kale
- a big handful of spinach
- 1 granny smith apple
- about 5 or 6 slices of pineapple
- a handful of green grapes
- a handful of baby carrots
- a big slice of lime (with peel - if you have the Vitamix)
optional - 1 banana and 1 green pear - I usually leave that out as it really is a lot of sugar

Again, I pulse meds, so if I were to drink this while I'm loading up with meds on my 10 days on, it would be a big problem.

another good one is turnip greens, frozen raspberries and lime.

Just a tip, lime neutralizes the bitterness in most of the greens.

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MichaelTampa
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As a vegan for almost 25 years now and someone who's done quite a few lyme treatments, wanted to chime in as well.

First off, the misconceptions on vegan diets and lack of protein or iron or whatnot. Vegan diets can be many things, and if you choose to do it with low protein or low iron or low folic acid or whatever, it is your choice, but there are plenty of vegan foods out there with vitamins and minerals, and some even have protein, yes.

But, more to the point, there are so many high quality supplements our there, including vegan supplements with proteins not really available in meaningful quantities in vegan foods. So, if one WANTS to be a vegan and WANTS to get whatever amount of protein, including any amino acid deemed important, or whatever vitamin or mineral, this is all possible. It's a matter of what you want to do. If you feel you can't give your body what it needs while being vegan, you're simply not looking hard enough or perhaps can't afford the cost of those supplements, and that's okay, we all make choices and have time and cost limitations (unfortunately for many).

There have been times in treatment, particularly when taking the "babesia" meds, of course which might work on other things like FL1953 and who knows what else, where I was eating very high fat and high protein diet, and felt that was very helpful to do that diet, this is what energy testing and cravings and energy all said to do.

I also went on a very low fat diet, from hearing about Dr. F's work. I had misunderstood/misheard directions, and shot for 10-15% of calories from fat, rather than 10-15 grams of fat per day. So I probably ate about 20-25 grams a day, and had an enormous herx, more than any other treatment I've had, including IV abx and a variety of other abx, GcMAF, AI, antiworm/parasite meds, IV ozone, just saying this was the most substantial herx I had. In order, it happened after the high fat high protein diet treating with the "babesia" meds. Quite sure it was herx and not problems, again, indicated by results, before and after feelings, and energy testing. Only needed the diet for about 6 weeks, well worth it. It did cause skin to dry out some, but that repaired itself easily enough once the diet stopped. By the way, anyone seriously doing this very low fat diet and keeping track of numbers will see how extreme it is, when you consider even whole grains have fat in them. It's not easy to execute.

In general, I have found the need for protein to be higher the sicker I was, and has generally gone steadily down with successful treatment.

So I want to make the point that people with chronic lyme don't have regular dietary needs, blood type diets might be valid to a point, but it does seem when you're sicker you need more protein. I have read this from experienced lyme docs as well as experienced it myself. Also seems like different diets and different points in times can be helpful, as I've seen first-hand real benefit from very high fat and then from very low fat.

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nefferdun
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Thank you guys for the green smoothie recipes. I have a juicer and a vitamix. I am recovering from a virus right now (had it for weeks) and my stomach can't tolerate much but when I feel better I will experiment again.

I like cooked kale and cabbage but it so powerful raw. Maybe something you have to build up to slowly to develop a taste and be able to tolerate it. In the Herson diet they give carrot/ green apple which I love, and a green smoothie. That is interesting too.

jwall, I wish I could pulse my meds. Whenever I have tried I relapse within a short time and it is very hard to recover.

Thanks for your experience Michael. I agree we can find plenty of quality protein in vegetable based food. Quinoa is very high in it and so are legumes. I love beans. Nuts and seeds and avacado are also full of protein and good fats, which help with the malarone. I hope these good fats do not feed the biofilm Dr. F is talking about.

Lately - about two weeks - I just can't eat the chicken or fish I allowed myself before. My husband tried to give me tuna and I just couldn't stomach it.
I am having digestive problems and it sits like a rock in my stomach. I can't even drink kifir. I had bloating all night from it. I am wondering if it is time to give up the dairy.

I sure would like to find a way to be healthy that does not require drugs for the rest of my life.

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old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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pooldog71
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Thank you guys for a great discussion...I think the food we put into our bodies might be as important as the meds we take.

I have been mostly gluten free, sugar free for a couple of years and I know it has helped. But I have not had the discipline to stick with it 100% of the time. Holidays, travel, or golfing, and I cave in quicker than I can say sourdough bread. It's tough because in over 2 years of treatment, I am still pretty sick, so I say what does it matter I can have that subway today... but it does matter...it's tough for me to stay with it....
One thing I have done that is very helpful is to start with a green smoothie everyday, I use one of the super green foods, add protein powder, ground flax seed, aloe vera juice, rice milk, and some almond butter. And I use a colored glass so that it doesn't look so green that early in the day! mmmmmmm

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Catgirl
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I loved being a vegan(felt better than at any point in my life). However, I haven't been very successful at being one now that I'm on abx. I don't know how any of you can be on abx and eat a vegan diet without getting yeast. Perhaps those of you doing the vegan diet aren't on abx?

Runner, I envy you (how are you doing it? abx??).

As far as dairy goes, IMO, The China Study has the best explanation of all (linked to cancer).

There is no other animal on the face of this earth that drinks another animals milk after the first couple of years (so why do we?). Milk is something that was advertised (TV & the food pyramid) to Americans to help the dairy industry sell their product(The China Study). No kidding, check it out.

And, the food pyramid was created by a panel with conflicts of interest to the dairy industry (The China Study). Sound familiar? Unfortunately, it tastes so darn good (cheese).

I agree with many of you here. I personally think we need more protein, minerals, vitamins, etc., than people who don't have lyme and company.

Unfortunately, I think all bets are off when we have lyme and company (we need the protein, especially since we are so sick). What we don't need is starch, sugar and gluten (which is why I'm so confused as to how people don't get yeast on a vegan diet).

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GiGi
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"Should be all be vegetarians?" Definitely no.

Dr. K. told me 13 years ago that he has never seen a healthy vegetarian patient. I asked him again when I ran into him recently - he said "I haven't met him yet".

Balance and variety, I think, is the key, and especially chronically ill all have a distorted or deficient amino acid profile. He said "most of his patients look alike when it comes to amino acids". Poor. I know that it is very difficult to correct it unless we have a well balanced food intake and make certain we can absorb what we eat.

I did the Allergie Immun therapy when I had already been symptomfree, but I benefited greatly in all areas by eliminating the dysregulations my body had adopted over the years trying to cope with toxicity (foods, environment).

Take care.

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nefferdun
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After you said that once before GiGi, I decided Dr. K is not all he is hyped up to be - not in my opinion. Most people can't afford free range organic so they are eating animals produced in filth on factory farms and feedlots.

Not only does this cause suffering to the animals, we get the antibiotics and other crap pumped into their bodies to keep them from dying.
Then there is the cortisol they are producing because of the stressful living conditions - not to mention the dying conditions.

It seems to me that anyone doing what Dr. K says he is doing would be very aware of the suffering in this world and understand we cannot sustain this planet with everyone eating meat. Do you know the stockyards produce more damaging emissions than the cars we are driving?

There are millions of people starving to death every year. If Americans ate just ten percent less meat, there would be NO starvation. Do we have a responsibility to the planet and all the living beings on it, or should we just continue to be gluttons taking what we crave and making excuses for it.

Factory farmed animals do not even have B12, one of the reasons we are told we should have animals products. B12 is produced in soil and the only way the animals can get it is from grazing. Animals penned for slaughter can not graze so there is a huge (30-40%) deficiency of B12 in meat eaters. The fact is, if you pick your own and don't wash it so meticulously, vegetables have B12.

Meat having higher quality protein is an excuse and a lie. In most of the poorer areas of world, meat is flavoring, not the "main course". The reason we believe we cannot sustain ourselves without meat is because everything else we are eating is such garbage. Most people rely on convenience foods that are refined and processed with all the nutrients removed.

There is plenty of protein in vegetables. Contrary to myth you do not need to combine foods with all amino acids in every meal. You will get the amino acids you need over the course of several days with a varied diet.

I just looked up some facts which you can check out online.
Quinoa is 35 (low) on the glycemic index. That means it is not going to cause yeast or raise blood sugar. 1/2 cup of dry quinoa has 12 grams of protein. One cup of cooked brown rice has 8 grams of protein and is 55 on the GI, also low.

A cup of cooked lentils has 18 grams of protein, but under 1 gram of fat. Most beans have 14 to 20 grams of protein to a cup. Soy beans have 29 grams per cup and fava beans have 22 grams.

Almonds have 8 grams of protein to 1/4 cup. Walnuts have about 5 grams and are full of omega 3 fatty acids.

Compare this to the Big Mac which has 24 grams of protein and 590 calories (much from saturated fats)! One cup of lentils with one cup of brown rice has 26 grams of protein, It is also loaded with magnesium and manganese and it has fewer calories and less fat. It is low on the glycemic index.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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nefferdun
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When I was first diagnosed I was advised to follow the paleo diet, high in meat and vegetables with very few carbs. As vegetables have very few calories, that meant a lot of meat. I smelled horrible and got so constipated I could not have a normal bowel movement. I was also sicker than I have ever been because of all the toxins. My nerves were raw.

I quit eating all red meat three years ago. I tried to eat more and more vegetarian meals but continued to have fish or chicken two or three times a week. This was better for me.

The more I incorporate vegetarian into my life the better I feel.
It is not just physically. I feel better because I know I am caring about something beyond myself. I don't want meat. I never did. I was a vegetarian when I was young but my husband was a meat eater and I wanted to please him.

Now he knows better and he is on board for the most part. This was also brought on, in great part, by the fact that my son was diagnosed as a type one diabetic. If he continues to eat meat he will likely suffer kidney disease and/or cardio vascular problems that can lead to blindness and amputations. No one can argue that. It is scientifically proven.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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cjb425
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I find I personally do best on a diet that is high in green veggies - kale, spinach, etc. - but I also eat grass fed beef, small amounts of wild salmon, seafood, cage free chicken and eggs, etc.


I totally believe in the power of veggies, but I cannot get behind the idea of being vegan for my health. I need as much protein as I can get, being very thin and underweight.

I think it depends on your personal needs, but you really can't go wrong with a well-rounded diet that includes veggies, meat, sprouted whole grains, and ignores refined sugars and carbs.

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MichaelTampa
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quote:
Originally posted by Catgirl:
I loved being a vegan(felt better than at any point in my life). However, I haven't been very successful at being one now that I'm on abx. I don't know how any of you can be on abx and eat a vegan diet without getting yeast. Perhaps those of you doing the vegan diet aren't on abx?

Runner, I envy you (how are you doing it? abx??).

As far as dairy goes, IMO, The China Study has the best explanation of all (linked to cancer).

There is no other animal on the face of this earth that drinks another animals milk after the first couple of years (so why do we?). Milk is something that was advertised (TV & the food pyramid) to Americans to help the dairy industry sell their product(The China Study). No kidding, check it out.

And, the food pyramid was created by a panel with conflicts of interest to the dairy industry (The China Study). Sound familiar? Unfortunately, it tastes so darn good (cheese).

I agree with many of you here. I personally think we need more protein, minerals, vitamins, etc., than people who don't have lyme and company.

Unfortunately, I think all bets are off when we have lyme and company (we need the protein, especially since we are so sick). What we don't need is starch, sugar and gluten (which is why I'm so confused as to how people don't get yeast on a vegan diet).

I can't speak for others, but before I started lyme treatment, which began with lots of abx, I already had a pretty severe yeast/fungus problem. While I needed way lots more probiotics during abx, the level of yeast/fungus problem has generally trended downward with successful treatment. Now, I have been off abx for a while, but still have a problem with borrelia and yeast/fungus.

I believe diet plays a role but am holding very little hope that a diet of no/low carbs would push me over the edge to cure this yeast/fungus problem. I hope something does, whether it is diet of that nature or something else, I keep looking and pondering what to do. Of course it may just be that continued lyme treatment along with other antiparasitics and detox and antifungals I am doing might in the end be enough.

But, to again clear up the misconception, if I really felt that no/low carb diet would help me, I could and would do it the vegan way. Nuts and seeds and vegetables can be done, just like meats and vegetables can be done. I really think both would be very heavy and cause other problems, and that along with the fact that my pendulum advises against it, is the reason I am not currently trying that type of diet.

Incidentally, I was just at the acupuncturists yesterday who can do treatments targeted at infections, and she said my body tested that it did not want such a treatment directed at yeast/fungus. So, it could be that all in proper order of things the time to address that will come.

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Catgirl
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Hi Michael. I tried the nuts, seeds, avocados, flax, veggies, quinoa, tofu, beans while on abx and it just didn't work for me. I lost WAY too much weight. It's not that I want a no or low carb (starch)) diet. I miss the carbs. It's simply that all other starches give me yeast.

My compromise (the best I can do) is to eat just two meals with animal protein (chicken, fish, turkey), & veggies. The rest (breakfast and snack) are vegan. I don't drink milk, but have some cheese & sour cream periodically to keep from whittling away to nothing.

We are all different. We all have different things going on in our bodies, which is why there is not one single treatment that works for everyone with lyme. I have lots of heavy metal in my body, and many co infections too. I can't have anything that has more than 2 grams of sugar in it without the yeast beast coming. I also take 100 billion+ of probiotics a day.

I personally think that the yeast comes shortly after we are bit by a lyme infested tick. I've had lyme for at least 15 years and didn't know it until year 12. Looking back, the signs of yeast were there.

Lyme & company brings to the surface multiple symptoms from everything we've been exposed to, past & present. So I imagine that yeast is the body's way of dealing with the invaders, and that it's just going to be something the majority of us have to fight.

You are so fortunate that eating a vegan diet works for you. I so want to go back to being a vegan. Unfortunately, it doesn't work for me right now. The yeast is just too much.

I also see an acupuncturist regularly. She treats me for yeast (all the time), and boosts my immune system in the areas that need it. I don't know how people get through lyme without acupuncture.

All that said, going vegan is definitely worth trying. Hopefully, some of you might get lucky. [Smile]

--------------------
--Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together).

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nefferdun
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Candid is a fungus living in the intestines which is normally kept in check by the immune system. Out of control -
"Candidemia is a fungal infection of the blood; disseminated candidiasis is a fungal infection of a single organ or several organs."

Candidiasis is fed by high blood sugar. What exactly is making the blood sugar high? Simple carbs and FAT.

According to several scientific studies, high concentrations of fat in the blood stream can cause insulin resistance. IR is when the cells are not responding to the insulin so the glucose stays in the blood. The glucose in the blood feeds candida. So a high fat diet contributes to candida as well as diabetes. Most diabetics have trouble controlling yeast.
In addition protein breakdown can produce ammonia which creates a hospitable environment for yeast to thrive in the intestines.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10354364

POINT: you are not controlling yeast infections with an animal based diet high in fat.

You need to eat COMPLEX carbs, not simple carbs. Brown rice, quinoa, lentils, soybeans, kidney beans and most vegetables do not feed candida.

HIGH GI: White flour, corn, sugar, potatoes, parsnip, pasta etc


The body needs carbohydrates for energy. What you want to avoid is simple carbs that are quickly converted to glucose and spike the blood sugar. Processed refined foods like white flour are simple carbs. Complex carbs like brown rice and quinoa are complex and take much longer to digest so they do not cause a dramatic rise in blood sugar.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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MichaelTampa
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Yep, Catgirl, gotta do what works. The acupuncturists have also helped me a lot. Maybe after you win the war on lyme you'll be able to do go back to the vegan diet with better success.

I believe I had lyme since childhood, and was not diagnosed until age 42, a couple years ago, so plenty of time for yeast and everything else to take hold pretty good. Before I started treating yeast (which was before lyme diagnosis), I would regularly eat 2 generous sized entrees with appetizer and desert at a restaurant and still not be full, and was very skinny. This all changed when I started treating yeast--the yeast must have been just gobbling up my food.

Just to toss out a couple suggestions in case you have not tried them--very high dose nystatin helped me a lot at one point, but Metagenics "CandiBactin BR" is the one thing that helped/helps me the most against the yeast/fungus. Not that it's enough, again, still a real problem for me here, but this one item alone made high dose nystatin and very high dose probiotics suddenly unnecessary.

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Catgirl
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Nefferdun, brown rice, & even carrots give me yeast. As I said, we are all different. Best to you.

Thanks Michael!

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--Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together).

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Catgirl:
I don't know how any of you can be on abx and eat a vegan diet without getting yeast.

-
EXACTLY

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Catgirl
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Forgot to ask, Michael, did you take the CandiBactin with abx?

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--Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together).

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MichaelTampa
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I didn't run across CandiBactin BR until I had stopped abx. I imagine it would have been helpful then with abx, but, it is good to note, what it did in terms of replacing probiotics and nystatin, it did at a time when abx were out of the picture.
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Catgirl
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Thanks Michael :)

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daystar1952
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If anyone is considering veganism, I would strongly recommend reading The Vegetarian Myth. Here is my review of it. http://www.foodfreedomrevolution.blogspot.com/2010/08/vegetarian-myth.html

Also Sue Vogan just had the author of Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox on her blogtalk show which you can find at the next link below.I feel the information from her show and from the book is extremely important.Vitamin K2 can be found in Natto and some other fermented foods but it is mostly found in animal products.

The following post under the Vitamin K2 post are my thoughts on the movie Forks Over Knives......which heavily encourages veganism. They only use that word once in the movie...however, when you advise not to eat meat,eggs, dairy or fat...that's what you get...veganism. We need to look at our ancestors and other indigenous cultures for wisdom on what to eat and how to prepare our foods.

From what I understand there are no totally vegan cultures which have reproduced over generations. I have learned alot from the information at these links.
http://www.foodfreedomrevolution.blogspot.com/

And don't forget the mecca of real nutrition information to be found at the nonprofit Price Pottenger Nutrition Foundation www.ppnf.org

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MichaelTampa
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The closest to vegan successful culture I have heard of is the Hunzas, but my understanding is that they were just very nearly vegan but not completely vegan. Their longevity and health is documented fairly well.
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daystar1952
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I have a book called The Wheel of Health, which writes about the Hunza.You're right...they eat little meat but their regular diet does consist of clarified butter (good source of K2 when the animals are fed their natural diet)milk, buttermilk, wheat, barley, vegetables and fruit.They have good sources of animal fats in the dairy and occasional meat.

We need these fats to absorb the vitamins and minerals in the vegetables. I've read that this is why people put butter on their veggies....not just for the reason of taste.Vitamin K2 is not found found abundantly or maybe not at all in vegetable oils.

For those of you who are interested in Nutrition, I would highly recommend reading Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Dr. Weston Price. I found it to be fascinating and extremely helpful in better understanding what foods we need to keep us healthy

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nefferdun
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Sounds like diet is close to religion or politics for many people. When you have chosen what you believe, whether it was deliberate after careful study, or it was imposed upon you through habits established in childhood, it is not likely that you will think outside your box.

What is chosen also seems to be greatly influenced by "taste". People defend what they enjoy.

Getting beyond that was my purpose. If Dr. F is a well respected researcher, and it seems to me that most LLMDs approve of his findings, then wouldn't his research be worth taking seriously?
If his patients are going into remission, and staying healthy on a vegan low fat whole foods diet, is it possible following a vegan diet might be the link I am missing in my recovery process?

Since I started this thread about ten days ago, I have not had meat except for a mouthful of fish and then a little chicken. It does not taste good to me any more. I don't want it. I can't say I will stay with this because there is a lot of pressure to convert back so I can understand how other people are blocked about it too.

I have been going more and more vegetarian (not vegan). I have not had red meat in three years - none at all. I eat a lot of complex carbs and I don't have a yeast problem. I take diflucan when I get a coating on my tongue. My blood sugar and weight are normal.

The biggest challenge right now is the fact that malarone is not well absorbed without a lot of fat. Maybe you get enough of it without fat. I am just afraid of the babesia getting a lot worse so I tend to think I will get rid of the babesia first and THEN do the low fat. But maybe that will never happen because the fat is feeding the biofilm that protects the infections and keeps them going.

I wish I knew the statistics of Dr. F's patients following a strict low fat vegan diet with healthy whole foods. How many recovered, how long did it take - that sort of thing.

This disease just goes on and on and on. I have tried everything from the scientifically based to the absolutely ridiculous and always come back to HERE - miserable reality that there is no cure and I will continue to relapse whenever I stop treatment.

So I hope I can do this but I can't promise it.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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MichaelTampa
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neff - FWIW, I went in the order of high fat high protein (vegan, but still high in those things) along with abx like malarone, clindamycin, and the like. That helped quite a bit. But not too long after that, I went super low fat, close to what Dr. F. says. He said 10-15 grams of fat a day, I did 20-25 grams a day. The herx from that was worse than anything during this lyme journey. So there is really something to be gained from that as well.

I don't think going halfway and thinking about, well, it's vegetarian, and expect the same results. If that's something you're doing on the way to getting to the super low fat, that can make sense. But don't forget, it's really about the fat and you have to go that amount of VERY low to get those results. I think you can try the VERY low fat at any time, you'll know after 2 days that it is having an impact, you may even need to back off as I did. If you go there and get no results for 2-3 days, perhaps then you have two few antibodies to make an impact, and need to go with other treatment such as abx before that will work.

But I really think of this super low fat as more of a treatment than a lifestyle. I don't think long-term that low fat is healthy (even though I do think long-term vegan CAN be healthy for those committed and careful about it).

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daystar1952
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I' am wondering what the rationale is behind the lowfat in this treatment.I can understand perhaps a vegan diet for the purpose of detox of moderate term but the long term effect of teeth and bones could be worrisome due to the reduced ability to absorb certain minerals and vitamins without the fat.....such as K2, calcium, etc.

Also, the proper fats from pastured animals....and coconut oil have very valuable antibiotic, anti-viral and anti-fungal properties. They also give structure to the cells to resist these microbes.

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MichaelTampa
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The rationale behind the extremely low fat diet is to expose the bugs such as babesia or the protozoa formerly known as FL1953, as they hide in the biofilm, as the fat helps hide them.

It can be a very powerful treatment.

But that is the key, in my opinion, is to consider it a TREATMENT rather than a permanent change in diet. Yes, the fats can be very valuable. But, we can live well enough on very limited fats for 6-8 weeks here and there as part of achieving this goal.

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nefferdun
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I see what you are saying. It is all or nothing. I will give it a try.

I guess I will just forget about the fat I am supposed to be taking with malarone.

There is 14 grams of fat in one TB of oil. I won't use any more than that and I will stay away from dairy, nuts, seeds and avocado for the time being. It is wonderful to know I can invest a few weeks into this to see if I get results and don't have to think about it as a lifetime conversion.

Thanks Mike

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old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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hadlyme
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Don't worry about taking fat and malarone. I asked Dr. F about that. Worry more about the thickness of the biofilm that fat builds up.

By going low fat, we are thinning out the biofilm and then the abx and malarone can work better.

I'm not vegan or vegitarian. I am doing low fat.
NO OILS, NO Milk products, No nuts, avocados etc. AND... I stay away from certain nightshades, as certain tomatoes will give me the muscle tightening sore thing. We really have an autoimmune disease (according to Dr. F) and we should watch those nightshades too. He stated that Roma tomatoes seem to be tolorated better than others. I love tomatoes! but each time I would eat them, it felt like my tendons tightened up and couldn't walk 10 steps without stopping for my muscles to relax and keep walking.

What we EAT IS important to us.

I feel it is a life change for me, not just treatment. I will eat this low fat whole foods as long as I want to feel better, which I do.

I have never herx'd hard on the diet, but know of others that have. I feel crappy when I do eat fat though.

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Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again!

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MichaelTampa
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Keep in mind nefferdun that foods other than oils have fat -- all grains do although rice and corn are less than oats and wheat. Of course packaged foods do too as they'll normally have oils added. But if you're going totally freshly prepared foods and limit oil to 1 tablespoon and avoid nuts and seeds, then you'll end up in that low enough range to see what that can do for you.
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nefferdun
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This has been very helpful. Thanks hadlyme and Michael.

hadlyme, did Dr. F say all biofilm uses fat or is it just the biofilm that is protecting this newly discovered pathogen?

How is your babesia treatment going without using fat?

If this is autoimmune, then LDN should help. I have trouble tolerating it for some reason.

Here is a breakdown of fat in grains:

http://www.immuneweb.org/lowcarb/food/grains.html

If you make oatmeal with 1/2 cup it would have about 4 grams of fat. Oats are one of the highest. Rice and Wheat are very low.
Legumes are very low too.

As I have been taking mepron or malarone for over a year, two meals a day have been loaded with fat. When I take the fat out, I can eat a lot more calories and that ends up being fruits and vegetables. I was told to eat 25 grams of fat which is almost 2 tablespoons with each dose. That is 400 calories a day.

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old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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nefferdun
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I just had a thought that confuses me about Dr. F saying it is beneficial for babesia as well. Babesia infects the red blood cells so it is not in biofilm - is it?

Also, as lyme disease infects all mammals wouldn't the deer who eat a low fat vegan diet have more resistance than the predators? Is there any study confirming this? I have to be my own devil's advocate.

If a person is already on a whole foods low fat vegan diet, would they have more resistance and not even get sick - or as sick? I wonder.

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old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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MichaelTampa
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Perhaps babesia is different then. Dr. F. seems to talk mainly about the protozoa formerly known as FL1953, as he discovered this one. I have heard they are similar, and like to couch what one is really treating when treating bugs, because so much is people being stuck in these symptoms are this bug and treated by these drugs, but in reality when they rarely see the bug, it's a lot more like these drugs are treating whatever bug is causing these symptoms, so I like to be a little more cautious. But to your question, I really don't know if babesia specifically is in biofilm.

Who knows on the deer, I doubt that's been studied in the lab. But what does it mean that so many deer are infected thought of as carriers of the ticks? That seems at least consistent. If they were very susceptible to that kind of disease, having all those ticks might get them really sick to the point of not being able to keep living with it. Just my speculation there.

Perhaps it would help some if it were a healthy diet, including enough fat to be healthy. I do remember hearing some study, probably mice or rats or something like that, they gave them tick bites and they never fought off all the infection, they always got sick. Of course if these were lab rats, they weren't living a "normal" rate life in the outdoors, and got extra wireless EMF's and whatnot.

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nefferdun
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Well, the deer population certainly is not decreasing so it is not killing them off, and I wouldn't doubt that most of them are infected.

Horses get it too and it seems to make them pretty sick but I have never heard of anyone putting a horse down because of lyme disease. Some horses are fed high concentrations of grain with corn which is high in fat and sugar.

I don't know if predators, like coyotes, are being reduced in numbers or they have just been killed and can't recover.

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old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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lululymemom
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IMO, if you want to keep your body as alkaline as possible, a vegan or vegetarian diet is best!

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IGM 41 IND, 83-93+ IGG 31 IND,34 IND, 41++, 58+, 83-93 IND

31 Epitope test neg.

Bartonella henselae 1:100

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